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#2898340 05/04/17 02:30 PM
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I just need to get this off my chest. I feel too humiliated to talk to any of my friends, and my best friend, my husband, is not appropriate at this point, I suspect.
We have been together for 12 years, married for 6. We have too adorable kids - 4 and 2. And this is the second time I have caught my husband having an affair.
The first time was about 7 years ago and it was a flirtation of a few months that led to one night at a hotel. We used the tools on MB, talked a lot, agreed on no contact with the lover and finally got over it. As much as one can. When I found out, I was certain we would fix it. I think I might have taken it too lightly and swept it under the rug. We didn't go to counselling and never truly dealt with any of issues that led to the affair. I think there has always been a part of me that thought it will not be the last time. I didn't snoop, nag, ask too many questions nor demanded absolute openness when it came to his phone/computer, etc. Firstly, because I thought it was humiliating. Secondly, because he found it offensive. And thirdly, because I think I never truly wanted to find out any more 'bad news'.
Life was good. We reconciled, had fun, travelled, spent all our free time together, bought a house, got married, had two kids, lived abroad. We were each-other's best friends. We have common interests and hobbies, world views and dreams. He is a great dad and a great husband (excluding this one horrible flaw of being a serial cheater). That is not to say life was all butterflies and unicorns. We are both quite unhappy with our jobs and have had a hard time finding true joy in anything recently. We have discussed it and tried to find solutions, but we agreed that it is just some form of an existential crisis - two small kids, the endless circle of chores and work and everyday issues. We hate the rut we are in, but haven't been able to change anything. Both of our cups are more than half empty and that has cause the relationship to suffer. We were kind of resigned I think. We knew things were not great with us, but neither of us did anything. Just waiting for things to get better. Magically? With the summer coming.
Three days ago I opened our laptop to my husband's Facebook message page (it was open, that is) and to his very direct message to a mutual friend - want to come over at lunch for some sex?
This time, I have no idea if we can come out of it. He claims it was just sex. I have no reason to suspect otherwise. Truly. Knowing the other woman (single, older) and having been in the same company with her and my husband many times, I believe it was indeed just sex. We haven't gone into the specifics, but I think the affair has been lasting over a year. We haven't had a very good sex-life for quite some time. From before our second kid was born. He has a much higher libido than me to begin with and for the past two years I have been neglecting him in that area even more. I just don't feel like having sex. I just can't be bothered. Sleep or books are so much more valuable and fulfilling at the moment. He claims that is the only thing that he doesn't like about our relationship. Other than that, I am still the love of his life and the only one he has ever wanted to be with.
I asked him to move out temporarily. He calls every morning and evening to talk to the kids. When they finish, we stay silent on the phone until I eventually say bye and hang up. We have had one 3-hour Facebook chat about it, because he couldn't face me. I couldn't face him either. And being open about sex has never been an easy thing for us, so not having to look at each other helped. Still, we didn't come to any conclusions, didn't make any decisions. He told me he wants to stay, that he never wanted to go anywhere, just fill this need for sex. And that now it is my decision. We haven't talked after that. I don't know if it's because he believes it will just blow over with time or because he doesn't know what to say. Or he thinks the ball is in my court and I will just decide on my own after a few days/weeks of contemplation.
How do I decide? What do I decide? My dignity or my family? My self respect or my best friend? How many times do you let someone do that to you before you decide to walk. I cannot imagine my life, our lives, without him. Looking at my kids tears me apart. And what reason do I have to believe that things will be any different this time? Walk away now, while I still have time to build a new life for myself? Or stay and hope for the best, that we will not find ourselves in the same situation 10 or 15 years from now, when it is too late for a new beginning? I don't want to give up on us, but I am not sure we can get out of this one together...

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Originally Posted by Hannah36
IWalk away now, while I still have time to build a new life for myself? Or stay and hope for the best, that we will not find ourselves in the same situation 10 or 15 years from now, when it is too late for a new beginning?

HI Hannah, welcome to Marriage Builders. I am sorry for the reasons that have brought you here. We can help you turn your marriage around if you and your husband are willing to follow the necessary steps to a) affair proof your marriaeg and b) create a romantic relationship.

A couple of things stand out that I wanted first address. First off, your husband did not have an affair because of a lack of sex. He had an affair because he has poor boundaries around women and allowed someone else to meet his needs. Unless he makes a radical change in his approach to the opposite sex, this will happen again. I promise you.

A good marriage is not a matter of luck or magic, but a matter of design. We can help you learn those steps.

The reason you have not wanted to have sex with him is because you are not emotionally attached to him anymore. He has not been meeting your needs. A woman's lack of interest in sex is due to the poor state of the marriage. If he had meeting your needs successfully you wouldn't be saying that you find sleep and reading more fulfilling. The greatest problem here is his failure to meet YOUR NEEDS.

With that out of the way, there is a very narrow path to recovery after an affair. Most people don't make it because they dont' follow these steps. Most of us here have recovered our marriages and have happy romantic marriages. We can help you do this if you and your husband are willing to diligently follow this program. Basically, it comes down to this:

Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley, clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders
The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide.
here

I will post the affair recovery checklist in the next post.



"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by Hannah36
II didn't snoop, nag, ask too many questions nor demanded absolute openness when it came to his phone/computer, etc. Firstly, because I thought it was humiliating. Secondly, because he found it offensive. .

I would rethink your attitude about snooping because it is not healthy for marriages. It is not a lack of trust that ruins marriages, but a lack of boundaries. You should have full access to everything and if he objects, that is a HUGE RED FLAG. Blind trust is bad for marriages, period. So this is an attitude that must change if you want to have a successful marriage.

From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.

These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.


Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.







"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Welcome to MB. I am sorry for what you are going through.

You are right that your WH is a serial cheater. Although it is possible to have 2 affairs without a serial cheating mentality, I do not think that is the case with your WH. I am basing this on the fact that it seems he actively seeks out these affairs, as opposed to just having poor boundaries and allowing others to meet his needs until he finds himself involved. He also seems to have a sense of entitlement about his affairs, that because he is not getting his SF need met at home, he is entitled to seek it elsewhere. These are characteristics of a serial cheater mentality.

Unfortunately, this is a VERY difficult problem to have. Serial cheaters will cheat if they have the chance. They will *actively seek affairs* if they have a chance. So the only option to stay in a marriage with a serial cheater, and not be cheated on again, is to take away their chance to cheat, to make it impossible for them to ever have another affair. This means complete transparency for life, knowing where he is at all times , having snooping methods in place to monitor him, etc. I know you have two young children with him, but I would think long and hard about whether you want to spend the rest of your life this way.

You did brush the last affair under the rug. It will be easy to do this again. I would bet money that these two affairs are not the only ones he has had already, and I guarantee you there will be more.


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In addition to the EP's that Melody Lane posted to you, I would require him to take a polygraph as a condition of recovering your marriage.

I am very concerned there are other infidelities you do not know about.

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Originally Posted by Hannah36
I asked him to move out temporarily. He calls every morning and evening to talk to the kids. When they finish, we stay silent on the phone until I eventually say bye and hang up. We have had one 3-hour Facebook chat about it, because he couldn't face me. I couldn't face him either. And being open about sex has never been an easy thing for us, so not having to look at each other helped. Still, we didn't come to any conclusions, didn't make any decisions. He told me he wants to stay, that he never wanted to go anywhere, just fill this need for sex. And that now it is my decision. We haven't talked after that. I don't know if it's because he believes it will just blow over with time or because he doesn't know what to say. Or he thinks the ball is in my court and I will just decide on my own after a few days/weeks of contemplation.

When it comes to wayward husbands, Dr Harley advises that he must come back 'hat in hand' and willing to do whatever is needed to recover the marriage. The way you describe how your WH is responding to you finding out about his (second) affair is not hat in hand at all. He is showing no remorse or effort to recover your marriage or win you back. Would you say this is an accurate statement? Did he willingly participate in recovery the first time, or was it your job to drive the recovery bus? This will not work to recover your marriage.

This is the time for you to set your standards high, my friend.

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Originally Posted by Hannah36
He told me he wants to stay, that he never wanted to go anywhere, just fill this need for sex.

If this is what he wants in your marriage, he will need to do a better job of meeting your needs and affair proofing your marriage. If you just have sex with him without his making those changes, I promise you will develop an aversion. There is a reason you don't feel like having sex with him, and that is because he is not fulfilling YOU.

Did you know that?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by unwritten
In addition to the EP's that Melody Lane posted to you, I would require him to take a polygraph as a condition of recovering your marriage.

I am very concerned there are other infidelities you do not know about.

I agree with this. There may be more that you don't know about.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Thanks for your input!
I think I agree with the fact that has was intentionally seeking those affairs. I think I agree that there have been others.

There are some steps you suggested I am not ok with, however.
- exposing the affair to everyone we know. It is humiliating for me. If we decide to stay together and work for it, it would be humiliating to have people know about what he did. Humiliating for me. Isn't the general consensus that betrayed spouses should have enough dignity and self respect to leave?
- demanding no contact. I know this is the pillar for reconciliation advocated on MB and my reasoning sounds absurd to most. But the thing is, we share a hobby (more like a lifestyle) that consumes most of our free time. Almost all weekends for 6 months a year. This is the one thing that gives us both most joy in life. This is the group where all our friends are. And this is also the group where the OW is. All of us are the core part of the organisation and none of us can really just up and leave. I understand that there are people who move and change jobs and leave groups of friends, but honestly, if I took that lifestyle/hobby away from me and my WH, I would take away the source of happiness from both of us. This is not something I can or am willing to do. It is not that the 'hobby' is more important than our marriage, this is part of the foundation of our marriage.
And I'm not sure it would eventually make any difference. There was no contact with the 1st AP, and he still found someone new. So even if there could be NC with this one, that alone will not keep him from continuing.

As for his remorse and coming to me 'hat in hand', I'm not sure. I think he is truly embarrassed and sad. But I also think he doesn't consider what he did to be as painful and humiliating for me as it is. And I do not know how to make him see it. I can talk endlessly about my pain and disgust and disappointment, but I'm not sure he will get it.

What now? Do I initiate contact to talk things through and see where we stand and where we can go from here? Or do I wait for him to make the first move?

Is there ANY hope left? I DO NOT want to break up our family! I am just SO sad...

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if I took that lifestyle/hobby away from me and my WH, I would take away the source of happiness from both of us. This is not something I can or am willing to do. It is not that the 'hobby' is more important than our marriage, this is part of the foundation of our marriage.

I would just point out how irrational this sounds. Your marriage has crumbled, it is utterly wrecked right now, so there is no foundation. Divorce does not make people happy. You are headed to divorce if he doesn't end contact with the OW and end any activities that have led to the environment that led to the affair.

If you don't find a new foundation - and FAST - you won't have a marriage. In order to recover your marriage, you and your husband must make a radical change in your marriage. Doing the same things will result in more of the same.

Quote
What now? Do I initiate contact to talk things through and see where we stand and where we can go from here? Or do I wait for him to make the first move?

What now is to either follow those steps or move forward with your life. You don't need to "talk," you need to follow a plan of recovery.

Hannah, if you can't follow any of those steps, then I would end the marriage, because more affairs will be in your future. The most critical first steps toward recovery are a) exposure and b) no contact with the affair partner. Without those steps, it is hopeless. There is a very narrow path to recovery and you can choose to take it or not. Best of luck to you.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Exposure is a critical first step:

Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley
"Exposure is very likely to end the affair, lifting the fog that has overcome the unfaithful spouse, helping him or her become truly repentant and willing to put energy and effort into a full marital recovery. In my experience with thousands of couples who struggle with the fallout of infidelity, exposure has been the single most important first step toward recovery. It not only helps end the affair, but it also provides support to the betrayed spouse, giving him or her stamina to hold out for ultimate recovery."

If you are interested in saving your marriage, I would put aside those fears of humiliation and expose the affair. It will make all the difference in your recovery. This is not a cafeteria plan where you select what makes you feel comfortable. None of it is comfortable. But getting divorced is the LEAST comfortable. That is where you are headed now unless you can follow a plan. The people who are successful are those who can put aside their emotions and follow a plan.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by Hannah36
Is there ANY hope left? I DO NOT want to break up our family! I am just SO sad...

I will be back later with more as I only have a few minutes right now.

I found my way to MB in 2007 and attempted a recovery with a serial cheater (2 affairs). He was remorseful and willing to do almost anything. There wasn't much on MB at that time about repeat offenders, like there is now.

He did it again a few years later and we are now divorced.

The pain and humiliation that you are experiencing now will be about 10 times worse if you bang your head on the wall in a false recovery only to be burned, again, by another affair.

This is where you need to start. You need to become (a) very familiar with this program (right now it does not seem as if you understand it to me) and 2) implement it in its ENTIRETY.

MB does not work when you cherry pick through it.

Be back with more later.


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Originally Posted by Hannah36
There are some steps you suggested I am not ok with, however.

Some of these steps are things no marriage can be good without. Dr. Harley has spent many years research and comparing those who have good marriages, and those who don't; those who avoid infidelity, and those who don't; those who recover from infidelity, and those who don't.

His recommendations are the things people have to do if they want to recover from infidelity - if they don't do these things, their marriage fails. And if they go on to get married again and don't do these things, they fail again.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
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If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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demanding no contact. I know this is the pillar for reconciliation advocated on MB and my reasoning sounds absurd to most. But the thing is, we share a hobby (more like a lifestyle) that consumes most of our free time. Almost all weekends for 6 months a year. This is the one thing that gives us both most joy in life. This is the group where all our friends are. And this is also the group where the OW is. All of us are the core part of the organisation and none of us can really just up and leave. I understand that there are people who move and change jobs and leave groups of friends, but honestly, if I took that lifestyle/hobby away from me and my WH, I would take away the source of happiness from both of us. This is not something I can or am willing to do. It is not that the 'hobby' is more important than our marriage, this is part of the foundation of our marriage.
Then I'm sorry to say that there is no hope for your marriage. In order for your marriage to recover, you are going to have to make radical lifestyle changes. We all did. You are headed for divorce if you don't.


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There are some steps you suggested I am not ok with, however.
- exposing the affair to everyone we know. It is humiliating for me. If we decide to stay together and work for it, it would be humiliating to have people know about what he did. Humiliating for me. Isn't the general consensus that betrayed spouses should have enough dignity and self respect to leave?
Exposure is therapeutic. It will give you a support system (even if you decide to divorce), and it will give your husband the accountability he needs. It is normal to feel some fear and dread about exposure, like it is normal to feel some fear and dread over surgery. But don't pass up the life-saving surgery just because of your emotions. Without this step, the wound of his affair will only fester and get worse.


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Originally Posted by unwritten
Originally Posted by Hannah36
I asked him to move out temporarily. He calls every morning and evening to talk to the kids. When they finish, we stay silent on the phone until I eventually say bye and hang up. We have had one 3-hour Facebook chat about it, because he couldn't face me. I couldn't face him either. And being open about sex has never been an easy thing for us, so not having to look at each other helped. Still, we didn't come to any conclusions, didn't make any decisions. He told me he wants to stay, that he never wanted to go anywhere, just fill this need for sex. And that now it is my decision. We haven't talked after that. I don't know if it's because he believes it will just blow over with time or because he doesn't know what to say. Or he thinks the ball is in my court and I will just decide on my own after a few days/weeks of contemplation.

When it comes to wayward husbands, Dr Harley advises that he must come back 'hat in hand' and willing to do whatever is needed to recover the marriage. The way you describe how your WH is responding to you finding out about his (second) affair is not hat in hand at all. He is showing no remorse or effort to recover your marriage or win you back. Would you say this is an accurate statement? Did he willingly participate in recovery the first time, or was it your job to drive the recovery bus? This will not work to recover your marriage.

This is the time for you to set your standards high, my friend.

I agree - if he's not on his knees begging for a chance to make this up to you, his perspective is not one that is going to make recovery likely.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

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How does no contact with this OW keep him from having any other ones? As we have already established that he is a serial cheater. NC will not keep him from seeking other sex partners if he wishes to. The way I see it, the only thing to do is to fix out relationship so he wouldn't need or want to.
And how exactly does exposure help? I have a hard time understanding how telling my parents or his would keep him from cheating again.

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Originally Posted by Hannah36
How does no contact with this OW keep him from having any other ones? As we have already established that he is a serial cheater. NC will not keep him from seeking other sex partners if he wishes to. The way I see it, the only thing to do is to fix out relationship so he wouldn't need or want to.

Do you understand the love bank? (If not, please read through the Basic Concepts) This OW has made massive lovebank deposits with your WH.

Yes, he needs super-duper EPs since he is a serial cheat, but he also needs to stay away from previous lovers - they are a danger to your marriage as well.


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Originally Posted by Hannah36
And how exactly does exposure help? I have a hard time understanding how telling my parents or his would keep him from cheating again.

Have you read through the Exposure thread and articles on this site?



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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Exposure is a critical first step:

Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley
"Exposure is very likely to end the affair, lifting the fog that has overcome the unfaithful spouse, helping him or her become truly repentant and willing to put energy and effort into a full marital recovery. In my experience with thousands of couples who struggle with the fallout of infidelity, exposure has been the single most important first step toward recovery. It not only helps end the affair, but it also provides support to the betrayed spouse, giving him or her stamina to hold out for ultimate recovery."

If you are interested in saving your marriage, I would put aside those fears of humiliation and expose the affair. It will make all the difference in your recovery. This is not a cafeteria plan where you select what makes you feel comfortable. None of it is comfortable. But getting divorced is the LEAST comfortable. That is where you are headed now unless you can follow a plan. The people who are successful are those who can put aside their emotions and follow a plan.

Did you read this?


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