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Barigirl #2900187 06/27/17 11:19 PM
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Why are you bringing up painful things from the past at all?

If you focus your energy at building a great marriage in the present, past resentment will fade. But if you keep bringing it up as a tit for tat, it will not.

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Originally Posted by unwritten
Why are you bringing up painful things from the past at all?

If you focus your energy at building a great marriage in the present, past resentment will fade. But if you keep bringing it up as a tit for tat, it will not.

Okay, I get that.

But in the course of using POJA on issues, we share our perspectives and talk things through trying to get a better understanding of each other's views, how do we not bring up the past?


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Barigirl #2900190 06/28/17 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Barigirl
Originally Posted by unwritten
Why are you bringing up painful things from the past at all?

If you focus your energy at building a great marriage in the present, past resentment will fade. But if you keep bringing it up as a tit for tat, it will not.

Okay, I get that.

But in the course of using POJA on issues, we share our perspectives and talk things through trying to get a better understanding of each other's views, how do we not bring up the past?

Barigirl, unwritten is completely right, leave the past in the past. Don't bring it up again.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Barigirl #2900192 06/28/17 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Barigirl
But in the course of using POJA on issues, we share our perspectives and talk things through trying to get a better understanding of each other's views, how do we not bring up the past?
I don't understand why it would be necessary to bring up the past in order to understand each other's perspectives on a contemporary issue.

Could you give us an example of how this becomes necessary?


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Originally Posted by SugarCane
Originally Posted by Barigirl
But in the course of using POJA on issues, we share our perspectives and talk things through trying to get a better understanding of each other's views, how do we not bring up the past?
I don't understand why it would be necessary to bring up the past in order to understand each other's perspectives on a contemporary issue.

Could you give us an example of how this becomes necessary?

I guess I wouldn't categorize our issue(s) as contemporary, more as historical.

We are trying to follow Dr. Harley's advice when attempting to POJA- to respect and understand each other's opinions; ask a lot of questions; ask each other why we feel the way we feel; understand each other in more depth; find out why he/she is objecting to something.

So if we are trying to POJA regarding visiting a family member that I don't like, for example, how would I follow Dr. Harley's advice without talking about the past?


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Barigirl #2900196 06/28/17 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Barigirl
We are trying to follow Dr. Harley's advice when attempting to POJA- to respect and understand each other's opinions; ask a lot of questions; ask each other why we feel the way we feel; understand each other in more depth; find out why he/she is objecting to something.

So if we are trying to POJA regarding visiting a family member that I don't like, for example, how would I follow Dr. Harley's advice without talking about the past?
Thanks for the example, but I don't really see how it fits in with what you said earlier:

Originally Posted by Barigirl
These issues are the ones we are working on, using POJA, today.

My problem....my H feels a lot of resentment toward me for having to endure my "mood swings" throughout our married life. I feel my "mood swings" were a normal response to his behavior, ie the drinking and other things.

H takes responsibility for his drinking and the pain it caused me. But he feels that I do not take responsibility for my response(s) re the "mood swings" throughout our marriage.

I am upset that he has resentment toward me for this. I feel that he caused the "mood swings" with his behavior so he doesn't get to resent me,

And yet, I know that he feels what he feels. And I am hurt that he feels this.

Help?
How are these issues connected?


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Barigirl #2900202 06/28/17 11:18 AM
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To deal with this issue separately:

Originally Posted by Barigirl
So if we are trying to POJA regarding visiting a family member that I don't like, for example, how would I follow Dr. Harley's advice without talking about the past?
Do you end up talking about the past when your husband tries to understand why you don't want to see this person?

If so, I think we might already have discussed with you the difficulties with trying to understand the other person's perspective, when negotiation has been poorly handled in the marriage for a long time.

The enthusiastic spouse uses the question"why?" as a way of pressurising the reluctant spouse into agreeing. There is an implied threat that if the reluctant spouse will not agree, the enthusiastic spouse will create such an unpleasant atmosphere in the marriage that the reluctant spouse will regret not agreeing. Also, the enthusiastic spouse is never satisfied with the answer to the question "why?". The enthusiastic spouse points out that the reasons are illogical, that they are misinformed, that the reasons are childish, or immature, or selfish...indeed, I'm pretty sure that you told us that this happens to you.

This is why we (on this forum) urge couples who struggle with POJA not to focus on the reasons. It is up to the enthusiastic spouse to try and find solutions that would make the reluctant spouse agree, but if the reluctant spouse indicates that there are no conditions under which they would become enthusiastic, the topic should be dropped. "Trying to respect and understand each other's perspectives" should never become a means for one spouse to pressurise, guilt-trip, or bully, the other.

Here is Dr Harley's own example of how conflicts over family should be handled. You can see from what he writes that his only concern is that he should never ask Joyce to do anything that makes her unhappy. He does not place his concern with the family member, but only with her. This is because he would be unhappy if he succeeded in making her do something she disliked. He couldn't live with himself if he did that. That is the desired position for us all to reach with our spouses.

Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
Joyce and I had a somewhat similar experience when my father lost his temper with Joyce over her use of makeup. Coming from a conservative Mennonite background, he didn't believe that women should use it. My immediate reaction was that we would not have any further contact with my parents until he apologized and Joyce was willing to restore a relationship with him. He did sincerely apologize, and we later discovered that he was in the early stages of Alzheimer's disease. Our relationship with my parents was restored, but the incident had a permanent effect on Joyce. She could not be with him for any length of time without experiencing extreme anxiety, but since they lived in a different state the problem was minimized. I let Joyce know that any contact we had with my family was entirely up to her.

In your case, I would recommend the same. Your husband understands the value of enthusiastic joint decisions in marriage, and how in-laws can ruin that enthusiasm. Your in-laws have much to gain by reconciling, and will try to do so as best they can to win your favor. But even if they react perfectly from now on, you will probably react the way Joyce did toward my father -- with great anxiety. The fact that he apologized and that we discovered that the cause was the early stages of dementia didn't affect her negative reaction. She did her best to reconcile but nothing changed the effect he had on her. The fact that my mother supported her reaction, and was extremely upset with my father for what he did, helped. But it could not erase the nightmare she experienced.


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Barigirl #2900204 06/28/17 11:40 AM
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And to deal with this one:

Originally Posted by Barigirl
My problem....my H feels a lot of resentment toward me for having to endure my "mood swings" throughout our married life. I feel my "mood swings" were a normal response to his behavior, ie the drinking and other things.

H takes responsibility for his drinking and the pain it caused me. But he feels that I do not take responsibility for my response(s) re the "mood swings" throughout our marriage.

I am upset that he has resentment toward me for this. I feel that he caused the "mood swings" with his behavior so he doesn't get to resent me,

And yet, I know that he feels what he feels. And I am hurt that he feels this.

Help?
This doesn't sound to me like a POJA issue, but I might be missing the point. if so, please explain.

Instead, this sounds as if you discuss these unpleasant events that have occurred in the past - your "mood swings" and his "drinking and other things" - and this is what we're saying there is no need to discuss.

All you are doing when you discuss past hurts is bringing the past unpleasantness into the present day. You are spoiling the time you spend with each other, and you are bringing the sense of resentment back to boiling point, instead of letting it die away.

If you are saying that, when you discuss issues such as seeing the family member, you explain how your husband hurt you in the past on this issue, and he does the same - well, such rehashing has no role to play in POJA. We go back to our recommendation that you should not go into reasons for your lack of enthusiasm, and he should not press you for these.

You husband can try and suggest conditions that might make you enthusiastic, but if you say that there are no conditions, then the subject should be dropped. Your husband should do as Dr Harley did, and tell you that whether you ever see that relative again is entirely up to you - and the subject should be dropped for good.


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Barigirl #2900206 06/28/17 11:51 AM
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Here is a shorter, clearer explanation from Dr Harley of how he put Joyce's feelings as his first, and only, consideration.

It might be that you're not dealing with parents, in your case, but the same principle applies:

Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
Joyce and I faced a similar situation when my father lost his temper with Joyce when we were visiting them. I told both my mother and father that we would not be having any contact with them until Joyce felt comfortable with it, which may never happen. My father wrote a very sincere apology, and Joyce forgave him. But if that apology had not been written, or if Joyce had not accepted it, we would not have seen them again.

Do nothing means no contact until you and (your husband come to an enthusiastic agreement about contacts between all of you, including him, and his parents. I've counseled many couples where parents have been "Plan Bd" and the parents usually get the message that if they want to see their child and grandchildren, they must treat their daughter or son-in-law with the utmost respect.


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Thank you for the explanations, SugarCane.

I am not meaning to discuss past hurts but only explain my perspective which is based on the past. Which, as you and others rightly point out, keeps the resentment boiling up.

I have apologised to H for doing this. Going forward, I will avoid doing this again.


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Barigirl #2900221 06/28/17 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Barigirl
Thank you for the explanations, SugarCane.

I am not meaning to discuss past hurts but only explain my perspective which is based on the past. Which, as you and others rightly point out, keeps the resentment boiling up.

I have apologised to H for doing this. Going forward, I will avoid doing this again.
You BOTH need to avoid asking the other for explanations of why they are not enthusiastic about something. You are not skilled enough to manage this yet. This is especially important with subjects like this, where there is a traumatic history and a lot of sore feelings and resentment.


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Quote
So if we are trying to POJA regarding visiting a family member that I don't like, for example, how would I follow Dr. Harley's advice without talking about the past?

You: I don't want to visit that family member.
Husband: Okay. What are some other things we could do that you would enjoy?
[start brainstorming ideas]



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Originally Posted by SugarCane
Originally Posted by Barigirl
Thank you for the explanations, SugarCane.

I am not meaning to discuss past hurts but only explain my perspective which is based on the past. Which, as you and others rightly point out, keeps the resentment boiling up.

I have apologised to H for doing this. Going forward, I will avoid doing this again.
You BOTH need to avoid asking the other for explanations of why they are not enthusiastic about something. You are not skilled enough to manage this yet. This is especially important with subjects like this, where there is a traumatic history and a lot of sore feelings and resentment.

I sent a question in to the radio show and it was addressed on June 19. Dr. Harley talked about understanding each other's opinions, so we were doing that. In some instances, it was helpful to us as we did gain a deeper understanding of one another.

I do get your point, however, that we are not yet skilled enough.


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Barigirl #2900235 06/28/17 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Barigirl
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Originally Posted by Barigirl
Thank you for the explanations, SugarCane.

I am not meaning to discuss past hurts but only explain my perspective which is based on the past. Which, as you and others rightly point out, keeps the resentment boiling up.

I have apologised to H for doing this. Going forward, I will avoid doing this again.
You BOTH need to avoid asking the other for explanations of why they are not enthusiastic about something. You are not skilled enough to manage this yet. This is especially important with subjects like this, where there is a traumatic history and a lot of sore feelings and resentment.

I sent a question in to the radio show and it was addressed on June 19. Dr. Harley talked about understanding each other's opinions, so we were doing that. In some instances, it was helpful to us as we did gain a deeper understanding of one another.

I do get your point, however, that we are not yet skilled enough.

You cannot do that if it is going to cause you to bring up mistakes of the past. Everything you have built up and accomplished for your marriage crumbles the MINUTE the past is brought to the present.

There is a big difference between telling your husband:
"I really don't want to get a red car, because when I was a teen I had a wreck in a red car, and it just makes me feel terrible to see one."

and

"I don't want to get a red car because early in our marriage we had a HUGE fight in a red car. Do you remember that fight? Here's what you said that made me feel terrible ...."


Do you see the difference?

Information about the past can be important when you are negotiating so that you can understand each others reasonings. But, it's kind of a short cut. You can't take that short cut IF you are bringing up past mistakes. Negotiating is NOT AN EXCUSE to discuss how your spouse has hurt you in the past.


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Prisca #2900239 06/28/17 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Prisca
Originally Posted by Barigirl
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Originally Posted by Barigirl
Thank you for the explanations, SugarCane.

I am not meaning to discuss past hurts but only explain my perspective which is based on the past. Which, as you and others rightly point out, keeps the resentment boiling up.

I have apologised to H for doing this. Going forward, I will avoid doing this again.
You BOTH need to avoid asking the other for explanations of why they are not enthusiastic about something. You are not skilled enough to manage this yet. This is especially important with subjects like this, where there is a traumatic history and a lot of sore feelings and resentment.

I sent a question in to the radio show and it was addressed on June 19. Dr. Harley talked about understanding each other's opinions, so we were doing that. In some instances, it was helpful to us as we did gain a deeper understanding of one another.

I do get your point, however, that we are not yet skilled enough.

You cannot do that if it is going to cause you to bring up mistakes of the past. Everything you have built up and accomplished for your marriage crumbles the MINUTE the past is brought to the present.

There is a big difference between telling your husband:
"I really don't want to get a red car, because when I was a teen I had a wreck in a red car, and it just makes me feel terrible to see one."

and

"I don't want to get a red car because early in our marriage we had a HUGE fight in a red car. Do you remember that fight? Here's what you said that made me feel terrible ...."


Do you see the difference?

Information about the past can be important when you are negotiating so that you can understand each others reasonings. But, it's kind of a short cut. You can't take that short cut IF you are bringing up past mistakes. Negotiating is NOT AN EXCUSE to discuss how your spouse has hurt you in the past.

I DO see the difference, Prisca. Thank you for that explanation.


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Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Originally Posted by BrainHurts

That is it, thanks, BrainHurts!


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