In replying to owen's thread about WS's indifference to their kids, BINthereDUNthat stated:<P>"Please keep praying for your wife. She has some very serious problems that are getting in the way of her parenting, not just due to the A. From your description, your W did not receive nurturing from her mom, so maybe that is how she can be so cold to the kids. Thank God they have you. Float the boat, man! My prayers are with you."<P>Well stated and it reminds me that the root causes of affairs can frequently be much, much deeper than the pre-existing marriage issues visible on the surface. I think we BSs too frequently forget this in our quest to fix the pre-existing problems we contributed to. <P>If, nonetheless, we do a good job of fixing our issues, we can just end up burned out and frustrated when everything else doesn't fall into place like we read about so often here.<P>Some things we simply cannot fix.<P>My point?<P>All of this is a good argument for Plan B. As Pittman states in "Private Lies," frequently the best course of action for BSs is to find some distraction to occupy themselves while the affair burns itself out. <P>Only then do the WSs with deeper problems have an opportunity to confront the real issues - the affair was just a symptom. <P>A well implemented Plan A and Plan B places the BS in a position then to be an attractive part of the solution. Otherwise, the WS may just create a new crisis for self-medication.<P>Thoughts?<P>WAT

Hi Dave,<P>Everyone is on his/her own journey toward self-awareness. Sometimes we use relationships to shield us from facing things (truths) about ourselves. Relationships tend to magnify our faults. We can either keep hiding or face our stuff. Like for example, when one person gets burned out dealing with our faults, run to the next person and so on, but never doing the work required to change our bad habits or destructive mindsets...<P>My wandering friend said they refuse to be alone. Loves OP, but won't leave spouse. Doesn't hate spouse, but seems sooooo out of touch with self! (?) (Because WS couldn't give me a definite answer when I asked WHY they felt they could not be alone??? I'm like, what's the matter--can't enjoy your own company? Wonder how come? It was a simple question, I thought???)<P>Lord knows how a BS is going to figure out a WS, particularly if WS sometimes can't even figure out themselves for themselves! Did that make sense?? Same goes for BSs. Perhaps that is sometimes why it is so confusing when BS just finds out...<P>In other words, I have to know myself in order to be able to communicate to another person WHY I do whatever I do, in case they care. If IIIIII don't know, then what? Only GOD knows, so either I have to get in touch with God and find out what His intentions were when He made me, or do some serious soul-searching to find out.<P>If I'm running from person to person (relationship to relationship), or blaming others for my reactions, I can't find serious answers about me. I can't take responsibility for me. I have to get alone with myself and face the mirror--long and hard--until I get my answers about me, for me.<P>[This message has been edited by BINthereDUNthat (edited September 06, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by BINthereDUNthat (edited September 06, 2001).]

I think you are absolutely correct. Within two to three after my wedding, I began to realize that something was not right with my W, now my XW. Then I found out eventually that she had been sexually abused and raped. Then everything became clear - I knew why she acted the way she did. What I did not appreciate was her concealing these facts until well within the marriage when things got shakey. Had I known this in the beginning, I would never have married her. Then she decided to hook up with a married man who left his wife and kids for her. What was disturbing was she did not face her problems, refused to get therapy and to this day continues to live in a fog. <p>[This message has been edited by Okieman (edited September 06, 2001).]

While God never uses our past to determine our future, our past makes us who we are. We cannot ignore it.<P>We can try to forget about things because we were so small or it was a long time ago or whatever, but sometimes it's key to understanding.<P>It takes years to get to know our spouses. Some things about my H irritated me to no end until I found out 'why' he was so anal about certain things. After I understood, I was much more sympathetic instead of JUDGMENTAL and ANNOYED... Can you spell w i t c h?<p>[This message has been edited by BINthereDUNthat (edited September 06, 2001).]

Amen, absolutely, WAT! I don't have much time right now to give some thoughts.... I could go on and on about this prolly..... I better not get started.... but I definitely agree with you.

WAT,<BR>You are right on with your thoughts on affairs stemming from larger issues. I might take your theory a step further and say that, in large part, our Emotional Needs are probably formed as far back as our growing up years.<P>In my case, I had a very distant father who was a good provider and made a stable home, but rarely displayed any affection or pride toward his daughters, and frequently broke promises to them. I have many unhappy memories of trying hard to please my father and him never noticing...even when I won a scholarship to college, he never said a single word to me about it.<P>Now don't get me wrong; I'm not from that camp who blames our "families of origin" for all of our emotional shortcomings and quirks. We are born with infinite capacity for growth, and as we get older we can recognize the unhealthy patterns and behaviors we grew up in, and we can work to avoid and change them in our own lives. That said, we are still products of our upbringing. We are, to some degree, forever haunted by our pasts. Our challenge is to respect this truth even as we strive for better selves.<P>I can't say it was my father's fault I had an affair--that's ludicrous. But I feel quite certain that all those years of his critical and distant relationship affected me, and likely helped to make Affection and Admiration such huge emotional needs for me...so much so that i feel empty, lost and panicked without a man's love in my life. Loving and being loved fill me like nothing else ever has...certainly not career success or personal achievement.<P>Maybe this truth about me made it easier for me to "fall into" an affair when my marriage took a downturn...who knows? I do know that this event in my life has brought about a new level of introspection and some sobering self-revelation. And although the cost has been high, I know myself now better than i ever have. If only these lessons didn't come too late...<P>Calla

I'd like to chime in that even we BS's live in our own 'fog/dream.' We often don't get down the heart of our own problems...<P>In reading "Secrets of the Vine," "The Four Agreements," and "Mastery of Love," as well as a host of other books this summer, I really have had to face some deep issues in myself...<P>Before you can truly love another you have to know, love and accept yourself...then you can know, love and accept another FOR WHOM THEY ARE...and not expect them to change...<P>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

Yes Cali,<BR>When I want my loved ones to change, the message I send to them is I don't accept you as you are...<P>Sooo, if I change my attitude by accepting my loved ones as they are, even if they never change, *I* will have changed and I won't be going around so difficult to live with anymore...<P>I'm not saying affairs are acceptable, just that when we love others, acceptance is a way of showing it.