Well, this was one of the posts that got deleted, and I was SO ready to respond to snl. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]<P>So, here's the "I Want to Be" list I stole from H2y, who stole it from someone else [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img], and I modified and personalized it for my H. <P><BR>I WANT TO BE THE ONE<BR>I want to be the one that gets to see you smile again<BR>I want to be the one that wipes your tears when you cry <BR>I want to be the one who you come to when you need a friend <BR>I want to be the one who you desire to kiss and hug <BR>I want to be the one who you trust with your life and soul <BR>I want to be the one who takes care of you when you are sick <BR>I want to be the one who gives you a clean house, clean clothes, and a comfortable home to live in<BR>I want to be the one who is your beautiful Angel princess <BR>I want to be the one who takes your arm to walk across the street<BR>I want to be the one that falls asleep on in your arms <BR>I want to be the one who you think of when you are daydreaming <BR>I want to be the one you want to take to bed<BR>I want to be the one that you look at and then melt<BR>I want to be the one that you provide a nice home, transportation, and a life worriless of debt for<BR>I want to be the one that puts wonderful meals on your table <BR>I want to be the one that shares the comics with <BR>I want to be the one that you sing to<BR>I want to be the one that looks at you and sees her knight in shining armor <BR>I want to be the one that makes you angry <BR>I want to be the one that makes you laugh<BR>I want to be the one that makes you feel strong<BR>I want to be the one that looks at you and melts<BR>I want to be the one that cheers for you when you succeed<BR>I want to be the one that you lean on when you fail<BR>I want to be the one that clings to you when I am scared <BR>I want to be the one that you teach about the great things in life <BR>I want to be the one that grows in Christ along with you<BR>I want to be the one that wakes up in your arms <BR>I want to be the one that picks you up when you fall <BR>I want to be the one that stands and shouts glees of joy when you earn a degree <BR>I want to be the one that laughs at your jokes <BR>I want to be the one that straightens your ties<BR>I want to be the one that watches the games with you <BR>I want to be the one that you enjoy being with <BR>I want to be the one that you put your head on <BR>I want to be the one that you are proud of <BR>I want to be the one that stands beside you <BR>I want to be the one who gives you children<BR>I want to be the one who teaches your children<BR>I want to be the one who is your recreational companion <BR>I want to be the one who you stand beside <BR>I want to be the one who is faithful to you <BR>I want to be the one who forgives you of your faults <BR>I want to be the one who sits beneath your favorite willow tree <BR>I want to be the one who lights the candles for a romantic dinner <BR>I want to be the one who travels the world with you <BR>I want to be the one who praises our children when they succeed at the little things<BR>I want to be the one that rubs your feet <BR>I want to be the one that makes you complete <BR>I want to be the one who sits with you when our children are married <BR>I want to be the one you lean on when our children are sick or dying <BR>I want to be the one that dies in your arms <BR>I want to be the one buried next to you <BR>I want to be the one that walks with you in greener pastures <P>I want to be the one, your only one.<P><BR>hmmmm.... snl [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]. I have been wondering where you were. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Glad to know my romantic "wants" and dreams got your attention [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]. I have several thoughts about your reply, but I may end up writing a book to try to respond. You know, I ALWAYS appreciate your input (well, almost always - [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] hehe), and I strive to understand your perspective and learn from it.<P>I will respond to just one thought - or concept here....<P><B>The fitting is the psychological mesh of two unique human beings, and the degree of fit (and possibly a spiritual component) is what in-love means. <BR>People in-love do not have rough patches that way.<BR>So one usually will love someone similar to them.<BR>People in love are passionate about each other all the time, forever. <BR>people in-love feel safe, safe in the knowledge their mate "sees" them, and is their other half. Just as they "see" them too, and are their other half. They are truly one. Not 2 who have chosen to meet each others EN, but 2 who cannot help but meet each others EN. The 2 are completely vulnerable to each other, gaurd not at all, it is such a risk, and contrary to our individual need to control our circumstances, and not all that common either.</B><P><BR>Did you ever feel this way about Thinker? Come on. Think about it. honestly. Didya? <P>I'm guessing you did. You didn't make a logical choice to marry her. You weren't appointed to each other by your parents, the stars, the government, a lottery, fate, pure sexual attraction, or anything else. You had these feelings - these wants and desires in my list. And these "in-love" characteristics that you are describing. No? please tell me.<P>I believe that these things - that you and I have described as "true love" - are what starts a marriage. But how can these types of things hold a marriage together for a lifetime? Your list and my list are emotions, feelings, passion, desire, fun, mushy-gushy inside stuff, the stuff that comes easily - naturally, chemistry, nature, etc. How can these things last a lifetime? Maybe they should - but can they?? But maybe life, struggles, distractions, personality issues, hurt (we all hurt each other), stress, illness, financial stress, etc.... (hmmmm, I didnt mean to start listing the vow "stuff": ummmm sickness and health, richer and poorer, etc.) anyway.. . these things come along, and the other things on our "gushy" lists get set aside, agree? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Well, perhaps once we get started in a marriage based on the feelings and emotions you and I both listed, then when "life" hits us, and we change and grow, we should put a little logic and commitment into it, DECIDE to find these things again, perhaps by learning "how" by studying here, the bible, and other resources. Learning HOW to meet EN's - they are skills that can be learned, and as both spouses begin learning these skills, love can grow, and the motivation to continue being everything on our lists will grow as well. I suppposed the real trick in marraige is to not let these gushy things disappear completely before stepping into the new "logical / decision" mode. right? Should we constantly evaluate, and apply new decisions - perhaps a daily decision - to remain married and figure out how to maintain the gushy things you and I listed? <P>So, perhaps your question is somewhat correct, the "motivation" for doing these things. I have often heard that the WHY is the most important aspect in succeeding at anything. As long as you know WHY you are doing something, you can figure out HOW. And you keep asking this over and over on this forum.... "why be married"? I don't know if anyone can answer that for you snl. Did you feel these things once for Thinker? Yes? Maybe that should be WHY enough... that it was there once, and can be found again.... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ October 11, 2001: Message edited by: Faith1 ]

snl?<P>I didn't put your name in the subject, but thought you'd come here anyway... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Faith 1,<P>Go to cali's post and redirect him here. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

yes, I am here, would never pass up any post that sounds philosophical. <P>re thinker, I have posted this before, and it is nakedly honest, but still hurtful, maybe I should copy it for when needed, cause it is a fair question trying to ascertain where someone comes from, why did you marry, it all starts there doesn't it.<P>Thinker and I married twice (in a manner of speaking, but only once officially). And therein lies some of the reason I may seem intransigent at times. We dated at 22 yo for 6 months, I was smitten, she was a decent, conservative, tom-boyish, petite, cute young woman. I was a conservative, pragmatic, self-assured young man. We seemed to fit, she deferred to me, and I treated her respectfully. Neither of us had ever done drugs, smoked, drank, and were both virgins, and raised as Christians, with those kinds of values. At 22, that is all you need to think you are in-love, and all I ever wanted in life was a family (I came from a seriously broken home) there were serious psychological issues yet to be revealed. It has been my observation since then about life that people in their mid-20's are highly motivated to marry, and do so with great frequency, whoever is in front of them at the time, and they have any kind of rapport with, I call it the marriage switch. You see this over and over as people gush about being in-love, and family and friends are imploring them to wait, cause the object of their desire is seriously lacking, but they marry em anyways, with predictable results. Also 6-12 months seems pretty common, yet is a woefully inadequate amount of time to fully appraise someone as marriage material.<P>Anyways at 6 months I asked thinker to marry me. She accepted for 3 days, and then felt like she needed to wait a while, but the relationship was sound. I was confused, but ok, was pretty soon, no harm done. Within a few months we slept together (blind leading the blind, but we worked it out), I mean we were gonna get married, so was ok, right? Well, finally some of the psychological issues started appearing, I was not equipped to fully understand any of this, but I have good instincts, and I do not let anything go. Without trying to analyze here, suffice to say I came to understand there were some serious foo issues with thinker (and why she got cold feet). After about 1 1/2 year we broke up (at my insistence) cause relationship was going nowhere fast. We both dated others for awhile, and did the usual, supposedly talked through our problems and reconcilled. (this period of time is what I refer to as being married once, we were sexually active, behaved as an exclusive couple, were emotionally tightly integrated, and for all practical purposes thought of each other as husband and wife. This went on for another year of so, and we broke up again (my insistence), I was thoroughly disillusioned by then. Thinker was hopeless ensnarled in a triangle with her father and mother, she being emotionally the ow to her father, and I wanted no part of this, as well as very serious self-esteem issues. She had become dependent on me for her emotional well-being, but gave back essentially nothing. <P>Me being the rescuer type, and a obsessive optimist (any problem can be solved!!!). I hung in there, cause whenever I would leave she would pursue me aggressively, make promises, promises, and more promises to change, become terribly unhappy (threaten suicide, and tried once). I figured somehow I could make her happy, I felt responsible for her (sexual activity had lot to do with that, promises doncha know), and again, she was not a bad person, very hard worker, dependable, and so forth. Anyways now is about 3 1/2 years into it. We were back together again, and continued on another year, but was not a happy time, I was feeling more and more trapped, nothing was changing, we were getting older (26 now) and no resolution in sight. So I took stock of myself, realized I could never leave her like this, she was my responsibility, we had been "married" 4 years by now, had all this time invested in her, and still did feel somehow I "loved" her, but what I loved was the picture, the happily ever after. I figured if I married her, it would change, she would wake up, and so forth. I didn't have the heart to leave her. So I told her we had to get married, or forget it once and for all (she lived at home all this time as well), she said ok, and so we got married. This is like the 2nd marriage, or a committment to recovery, feels like it to me. Anyways needless to say, despite 4 kids, years of counselling nothing changed. We never connected, but we were dutiful for 23 years, I took care of her as best I could (but inadequately), she raised the kids, but our house was always on eggshells, cause never knew what would make mom mad, I was threatened with divorce at least a thousand times, and so we lived until I wandered. Did we have good times? Sure. We enjoyed the kids, and did some family acticvities, and such. We were not cruel or hateful to each other, but the stress just kept building and building and building, and we got lonelier and lonelier and lonelier. There is more pyschological stuff as I have figured out my roles, and what happened, but the inescapable conclusion was we had no business marrying. I did it for duty, I decided to love, I sacrificed, all was for nought, you cannot be in-love that way. It is (IMO) essential you fit someone, that is a complicated thing, and it is easy to decieve yourself, and that IMO is the truth behind many of the stories here.<p>[ October 12, 2001: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]

Thanks for sharing your story SnL.<BR>I really appreciate your approach.<P>I only hope you reach a conclusion soon.<BR>I know I have appreciated hearing your thoughts as you work through this. I know you take a lot of heat -- the vast majority want to see you reach a certain conclusion, and are frustated by the lack of progress toward that certain goal. But you have to do whats right for you -- and in the WAY thats right for you too.

Thanks for this Faith....it's pretty good.<P> Interesting reading SNL. Nice to see more of your story, it helps to better understand you. And it also makes you appear more compassionate. <P> jd<p>[ October 12, 2001: Message edited by: jdmac1 ]

O SnL...<P>I can tell by your story that you do have deep feelings for Thinker. You had those in-love feelings early on until both of you got to that 'comfortable' stage and the entitlement feelings took over plus the psychological stuff you discuss.<P>Gosh...your story sounds so similar to mine and my H. I was the one with all the anger...I exploded and imploded...very inappropriately. Funny thing is that I had this self-realization BEFORE d-day...was like a second premonition...almost like He was putting things in my path to make me ready for what was about to occur. <P>You see when d-day occurred it all came tumbling back...I could totally SEE why my H felt the way he did...don't understand why he chose the route he did, but am beginning to think that is an ego need thing...<P>MY thing is CAN YOU SEE Thinker's side? Can you put yourself in her shoes? Yeah, you know about her relationship with her family...but do you truly understand the dynamics of WHY you chose each other and kept coming back to EACH OTHER?<P>SnL...have you heard of a marriage program called Retrouvaille? <A HREF="http://www.retrouvaille.org" TARGET=_blank>http://www.retrouvaille.org</A> <P>I have started some research on it and it looks promising...would you look into it?<P>Cali

We have been to retrovaille (in may) cali. There are few stones I have left unturned in this um...... "quest". The program is ok, and is somewhat similar philosophically to MB, but more narrowly focused. They don't call it that, but they try to stop folks from love busting. They encourage spending time together, and they try to get folks communicating feelings about stuff (sort of EN). It is also peer oriented, real people, real recoveries, sort of like the forums here. Can be useful, some folks there on the verge of divorce recanted for the time being, lot of crying and such, very therapeutic. What happens a lot is that a couple is sorta "forced" to communicate by the program, and you are locked up together from fri eve, to sunday aft, with lots of workshops. So some people get "heard" by their spouses for the first time in years. But again, it is only a program of tools, it cannot work without motivation, and IMO part of motivation arises from who you are, and how you fit with your spouse. I am past wondering about whether anyone can be married to anyone, I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that very few people exercise good sense in choosing to marry, and that that is the source of most divorce. People may not be able to articulate it as well as I do (or at least as well as I try too), but we each know when enough is enough, and the marriage is not ever going to make the grade of "in-love", the special intimacy that transcends simply having a pleasant accomodation with your spouse. At this point people either end the marriage, or accept a contractural type accomodation (HNHN you do me, and I will do you). Right wrong or indifferent, I am not a settler, thinker knew that when she married me. It is all or nothing, that is how I am put together. I told her before we married, and a few times right after, I could carry us for a long time, but probably not forever, I needed help, she never helped me. I didn't know why, now I do. I have no regrets cause I went into it with my eyes open, even if I did not fully understand what was happening. I tried just "doing" it, tried duty, tried promises (vows), it does not work. The only thing that ever got her attention was when I left, twice while dating, and when I fell in love with ow. Now we have to deal with that, and the realities arising from that. One of those is that I will never live like that again, I will never "choose" intimacy, it must choose me, it cannot be a cognitive choice. Love does not work like that. I look at everything in life as an opportunity, no matter how seemingly bad. This had been a tremendous growth experience for me, and thinker, as well as the ow. I am relentless when on a mission, and I WILL come to understand all this, I am unmoved by the fall out to anyone (although I won't hurt anyone if I can avoid it without compromising the truth), I want the TRUTH, and I will find it. I won't stop till I do. And in that truth, will I find my path.

I guess I am just baffled, as I am by my H with that marriage out of duty concept...<P>yet, you say Thinker knew that from the beginning? because I sure didn't. I was never so stunned...at least until d-day...as when my H told me he wasn't 'in-love' with me when he married me...and he has taken great pains to say that he loves me...just not 'in-love' with me.<P>Why would you marry someone...have a family...set up all those ties and dynamics only to exit stage left?<P>I love and have loved my H with my whole being and that he says he married me and didn't feel the same way seems more of a betrayal than the OW. How could he cheat me that way? (Not that I really believe it BTW...I could send you our wedding video...or I wish I had taped his reaction recently when he was told that another man invited me away on a weekend...)<P>However, when those words are spoken, I feel that I was set up for a fall...it was his escape hatch...<P>He even recently said he just accomodated my need to have a family...oh, how gallant...and how responsible to say he'd never abandon them and loves them...<P>If he didn't really want to be married and have children...HE SHOULDN'T HAVE. He KNOWS...we discussed it over and over and over...DIVORCE WAS NOT AN OPTION ONCE WE HAD CHILDREN. I was adament. I was a child of divorce. I HATED IT. My life changed forever and I never have regained my peace or balance...much of my hangups were 'caused' by my stepfathers' (two) constant judging of me.<P>Anyway...it just sounded like a positive program...<P>cali

It is a positive program cali, and it has a long term follow up series of meetings (usually twelve) to help you keep on track. I would recommend it to anyone. It is overseen by the Catholic Church, and each weekend has a resident priest who actually personally participates in the workshops (his wife is the Church, and his relationship with that). I did learn more about expressing geelings (instead of expressing criticisms) is very good that way. But it is not a cure all, nothing is, as you know. I did get the priest into a conversation, and asked him about the same things I ask here. I was dumbfounded when he said marriage is not an absolute. This man has been a priest for 30+ years, most of it dealing with families and marriages (among his regular duties), has married scores of people who wanted him officiating, he was very charasmatic (in a quiet uneffecting way). He knows what he is talking about, he thinks fitting is an integral part of marriage, and that divorce is not the end of life. But of course he cautioned that one should think long and hard, and do the work, before assessing their marriage will not work, and he maintained that most can work, sort of like MB says. But he says (as he must) each must decide for themself this most intimate of decisions.<P>yes thinker knew we had problems, but she is not good at this stuff, and is a major avoider of anything emotional. I didn't know it at the time, but I had been made the designated fixer for her life. I was resisting that, but it is also one of my weaknesses, and therefore I am fully (if not even mostly) responsible for this debacle. But I believed her, she said she would change. I know she meant well, and I was too young to understand one cannot make such promises. And she was not equipped to resist me being the fixer. I am a powerful personality, and I always mean well, but I have some serious shortcomings re thinking I know everything, and can solve any problem. That was my contribution to this, I should have waited until our relationship was fixed, and egalitarian, not a dependentcy.<P>But ya know cali, we didn't walk around discussing this all the time. Once the decision was made, to get married. Of course we made the best of it. I wasn't going to hold back, I gave it everything I had, no one made me get married, it was my choice. And like you, I had no intention of ever getting divorced. But I knew, if our fundamental relationship never changed, we would grow far apart, and the repercussions of that worried me, even then. As for your H, again he is not me, I am not sure of his issues. But I can see some similarities in lots of these stories. Some people have a hard time emotionally hurting others, and if they are paired up with an emotionally strong-willed person they may very well just give in and try to make the best of it. So of course they go through all the motions, they mean well, (I always did, it was only the last few years I started feeling like a hypoctit getting my wife cards, and flowers and talking about how lucky I was to have her). It is a picture cali, it is how we are all indoctrinated. No one sets out to decieve, one has hopes and dreams, but is just not realistic, not doing the work. And when it all crashes in the truth comes out, maybe the truths H was never really able to admit to himself, much less you. I can only wonder how many people marry cause they just don't want to hurt the other party, and stuff is ok, just not quite right. Is it fair? No. But again is another consequence of the ignorance with which we get married.<P>I hear ya cali, you had expectations, he made promises, you did your part, are willing to fix yourself, and he has not held up his end. You know why cali (or you know what I will say anyways), no human being can make such promises, doesn't work. It was all a picture, a fantasy, each playing their roles, and now the play is over. Now it is real, and he will either choose you or not (and you him), not cause of duty, but because of the heart. You are starting all over, as you must. Maybe you were too good at selling your expectations cali, I don't think you will make the same mistake twice. You cannot dictate your future, you can only understand yourself, and try your best to assess how you fit another. If you do a good job of choosing (be your H or someone else) you will not have to worry much about disharmony, that IMO is how it works.

snl, i guess you are right. As long as some people THINK like you, then you are ABSOLUTELY right, and this is JUST the way things are. <P><B>I can only wonder how many people marry cause they just don't want to hurt the other party, and stuff is ok, just not quite right. Is it fair? No. But again is another consequence of the ignorance with which we get married.</B><P>ummmm...."just not quite right"??? when can it ever be perfect? should we only get married if everything is perfect? nawwww... don't think that's possible..... So do we choose to love and accept each other in spite of our individual flaws? or flaws in the relationship? YES. tis the only way we CAN do it. Where's the line? the line between accepting some flaws, and ignoring the warning signs for serious problems ahead???<P><B>I hear ya cali, you had expectations, he made promises, you did your part, are willing to fix yourself, and he has not held up his end. You know why cali (or you know what I will say anyways), no human being can make such promises, doesn't work. It was all a picture, a fantasy, each playing their roles, and now the play is over. Now it is real, and he will either choose you or not (and you him), not cause of duty, but because of the heart. </B><P>So, snl.... what's the answer, friend? never get married? Or everyone must study and receive a 4-yr college degree in "Marriage"? during which time we will study personalities, overcoming childhood strife, the bible, MB, as well as thorough "fit"-testing with our potential spouse, lab-studies, plotting and planning, ethics and morals classes, parenting, financial planning, .... all the stuff that will "prepare" us for life with someone...yep, lets study and be sure this is the right person, and will STILL be the right person in 25 years... 50 years.... and at the end of those 4 years studying and testing together, if we fail to graduate, start all over with a new potential mate. How to ever graduate from this school??? No one is perfect, and no relationship is perfect.<P>sorry.... being a little sarcastic here.<P>what's the answer? I guess that's what you're looking for. Why do some of us need answers? (exactly one-half of every marriage, apparently!!!) And then, Why do some of us believe you marry, commit, and keep the commitment? <P>Simply, why do some of us believe, and some don't? <P>I hate to call it justification for self: lack of will-power... lack of commitment.... lack of responsibility. snl, you've shown yourself as trying to do anything throughout the years to "fix" your marriage, and find happiness for the two of you. I guess there is a point when you've done all you can. <P>You are still married - trying to make it work. SOme people just use your logic - as "justification" - and decide to divorce.... and end up in Cali's statistics list of "regret".<p>[ October 14, 2001: Message edited by: Faith1 ]

snl... yoo-hoo... I see you around this morning. I never know if I've rambled and/or asked questions that don't make any sense... or maybe you're still thinkin' on this... I would be interested if you can respond to any of my ramblings... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] really [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]<P>And I guess... in addition.... and REALLY along the same lines as some of my ramblings and questions.. I've asked you before and never saw an answer:<P>When is it ok to divorce? <BR>How many times should we marry to find the right fit?<BR>How long should we "try" to "fix" what we've got before ending it?

SNL,

Thanks for your long summary of your marriage.

-AD

<small>[ June 30, 2002, 01:42 AM: Message edited by: AD ]</small>