Hiya,<P>It's been a while. I was going to post some stuff about me but then I read this other thread and just had to send this to the both of you.<P>Now I will preface this by saying that I like the both of you but ya' know, sometimes, I just have to wonder about what is going on inside your heads so here goes......<P>Snl, here is a partial quote from your other post: <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<BR><STRONG>You are absolutely right lexxxy, I don't believe my wife loves me. I believe she is scared of life without me, and is willing to settle for me. </STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thinker in all fairness, here is your post. <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by thinker:<BR><STRONG><BR>I don't want this marriage, the way it is going now. I feel my H is hiding things from me to this day.<P>I still love my H, and I am sorry he doesn't feel that I do. I will leave if that is what he wants, life will be tough, and remember I was by your side during all the trama in your life, not your OW. I am sorry my H does not love me, states he will never love me, states that we do not fit. Life with the OW was euphoria, fantasy, and all. But will he admit it, ask him?<P>Depressed today, home from surgery. H home, on the computer. Life is a B*T*H and then you DIE.<P>[ October 16, 2001: Message edited by: thinker ]</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Snl, your statement about you believing your W does not love you. Later you state about only being H filling the slot. My question to you is, is that what you believe about your W? Are you giving statements about your W that are really about you? <P>Now why am I asking these questions? Because your W has refuted your statements. Of course, hearing it enough maybe making her lose her love for you. Is that your goal? <P>Let's take your comment and apply it to your W. Test out your statement....<P>1. Your W makes your favorite pie Hm.. lemon meringue? Home made.... ok. Over here Marie Callendar's makes it for $7.95 + $.50 pie tin deposit. This month on sale for $5.95, probably not as good as home made but hey, I buy it because that is my H's favorite also. LOL!!!!<P>2. Your W took care of you after your recent surgery. Hm..... to have nurse come into your home and change your bandages daily, would be at least $50.00 per visit. <P>3. Your W accompanies you on the job, keeps your books, handles phone calls, carries equipment, discusses information with customers, etc. Sounds like an office person, apprentice, sales person, accountant, etc. How much would you have to pay someone to do what she is doing?<P>4. Does the normal W stuff. Cleans your home, makes your meals, washes your clothes, takes care of the animals, takes care of your children, manages household finances, etc. Hm...... How many people would you have to hire to do those things and how much would you have to pay them?<P>Last I checked, your W has been doing most of those things for free. Why? Because she doesn't love you? Ok, who else is she doing those things for? You know, I help out my H also and he thought I did not love him...... Man this stuff smells familar and it stinks!!!<P>Ok, take alook at that OW. Perfect match, get along great and what has she done for love? Remember you did say in previous posts that you know the OW loves you. So going on that premise, here goes:<P>A. OW has met you in a hotel and undressed.<BR>B. OW has threatened suicide if you tell her<BR> H. <BR>C. OW talked to you many times. <P>Well, as for item A. that need can be met and paid for by some women (don't want to disclose their profession). Item B - that doesn't sound like a loving thing to me (IMHO). Item C - talk is cheap? Sometimes, proof is in the pudding (or the merangue - sp?)<P>So, if this were not about you and your W but someone else and you read the comparison who would you say really loved who? <P>Yea, I know there are probably 1000 men out there I would do all those things for. You really believe that? Now, I don't love or have sex with them, I just want to wash their clothes, pay their bills, take care of their children and animals, help them run their business, cook their meals and go out of my way to make their favorite foods, clean their house, etc. Whew.... after that I guess who has time for love or sex? I mean doing that for 1000 men every week? Come'on, we women have a hard time doing it for one (our H's). Think we would just do it for any guy? Think again. <P>But hey, try paying your W for all that she does, maybe it will be easier to let you go. Don't short change her now, you may have to keep her then.<P>Thinker, I understand where you are at. I hope you are able to get some rest and recover. How is your dad? I hope it is ok to ask. <P>Look, I am concerned about you both. I know you can both be nice and giving people. Somehow you kinda both have taken each other for granted some more than others and are quick to not appreciate each other. STOP THAT!!!!! <P>Also, stop putting your feelings under the other person's name. My H did that to me and I am very sensative when that happens. Maybe that is why I started this thread. <P>Ahh..... blame it on me, I am sensative. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] Nope, I am just trying to open your eyes. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]<P>Take Care,<BR>L.

I had to post on the thread which I was being spoken by my H. I did not like what he said. I feel it is not all true, but I am not going to go there. I would love if my H would leave me out. Everytime I post something that I feel I need to put my input in and how I feel, H gets irrate and cold. He has asked me to not post on any of his posts.<P>Therefore, I will start my own thread and move on. H is more than welcome to post on my threads.<P>I don't know where H is going, all I feel is he thinks about the OW as the only one that loves him. Yes, I was there for all of his surgeries, hardships, funeral, etc. Yes, I make him a homemade lemon meringue pie, it is not easy, zesting lemons, and squeezing the juice out. Making the crust and all. But I did it out of love for my H. I wouldn't do it for any other guy. <P>Yes, I work cheap, I asked husband how much do I get paid for going on the service calls with him. It was suppose to be a kiss. But that didn't last long. I had surgery Monday on my knee, had a torn miniscus and had it cut off. Thought I would beable to walk on my leg by today, but not yet. I hate being down, I walk a lot with my dog, and this is not good that I am not walking. Plus things around the house are getting left undone. H and I have differences on keeping things organized and updated.<P>My dad is alive and living. He went to the oncology department yesterday to evaluate his condition. He has a cancerous tumor between the eyes (4x5"). Doctors told my mother that my dad is too fraile for chemotherapy. He weighs 116# fully clothed. They are going to do radiation, told my mother probably 5 days a week. Weekends off. For how long, they said time will tell. They told her to expect at least 6-8 weeks. I offered to my mom lastnight that if she needs a break, I will take him a couple of days a week. She said she will see. They are going to send the evaluation to a team of specialists to determine the game plan and then call my mother on Friday, to discuss the game plan. With the body scan that they did, they found he has water on the lung. They are concerned about that. He is seeing a geriatric doctor at the same university hospital, recommneded by the oncology department. Possibly, he might be admitted for the water on the lungs. <P>This is a stressful time for my parents. My mom has lost weight too. She is edgy, which is expected and her and I had a talk tonight on the phone. She knows she is strong, but she said, she feels like they are losing the battle. I am glad for the info from her, and told her I will be there for her. So I never discuss with her my marital problems, why put more strain on her. I just tell her we are working on it. I hardly discuss my marital problems with my H mother. She does not want to hear about it much. She says she cares about both of us, and time will tell. <P>Things are not good here, as you can see in my H writing. I am this evil person, that he doesn't hate, does not love, likes some, does not fit with, and will never love. So where do you think this puts me emotionally. <P>I can't sleep tonight, pain in knee and am trying to get off the pain narcotics. They are making me shake. Husband got irritated with me for posting, and I saw the anger in his face and heard the voice. Therefore, I will not post on his posts anymore, but will post my own elsewhere. This forum is for marriages to get good advice. How to meet your spouse EN, be caring, be thoughtful and etc. The Harley stuff. But what I read, seems some people want to justify their actions. Just my opinion.<P>Thanks Orchid for the post and statements you made. Will call you this week if you are available. Need support, yes.<p>[ October 17, 2001: Message edited by: thinker ]

Hi T,<P>Wow, you certainly have a lot on your plate. I will certainly be available as much as I can. <P>You know your motives and reasons. Regardless of what is said and done around us, eventually the truth comes out for all to see. I am trying to be fair to all here and it is hard. <P>In some cases, the truth takes a long time to surface. Facing the truth and them incorporating it in our lives is hard for some. <P>You though, go with your conscience. Please take care of yourself. Can your children and H help out? I am sure they can if they put their mind to it. {{{{hugs to you}}}}<P>I know you will be there for your mom. I am sure she is aware of what you are going through. Moms are intuitive that way. She has a lot on her plate also. <P>You can continue to vent here. It is an open forum. Both of you are invited here on this thread. I do expect each to respect each other. That's a given, right? [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]<P>You are the nurse so I know you know way better than I, but your knee carries a lot of our body weight so don't go hopping around before your time. OK?!?!?!?<P>Thanks for letting me know how you are doing. Will chat later. <P>Take Care,<BR>L.

sorry neglected you leanne, been kinda hard day, w is very angry, think my days on-line are limited (she hates me coming here). Don't know what I will do, have no one else to talk this stuff out with. I wonder sometimes if she just wants to isolate me, I ask her not to read my stuff, but she does anyways, and gets very angry, cold hard, abiding anger, is scarey. I know when a bs gets pushed off the boards by ws, there is a lot of support, don't think I will get the same concern. I leave against my will, but I cannot stand up to her anger...oh well, I'm just pond scum anyways, so who cares [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]<P>orchid...Snl, your statement about you believing your W does not love you. Later you state about only being H filling the slot. My question to you is, is that what you believe about your W? Are you giving statements about your W that are really about you? <P>snl...It is my assessment about my w feelings. I don't mean she is malicious, or uncaring, nor do I mean to sound like I am justifying, is real simple, I just think it is the nature of our relationship..... and lots of others here as well. Pretty common methinks.<P>orchid...Now why am I asking these questions? Because your W has refuted your statements. Of course, hearing it enough maybe making her lose her love for you. Is that your goal?<P>snl..No is not my goal. I only have one goal, to find out the truth, the real unvarnished, psychological truth re our marriage. <P><BR>(long list of stuff w does in marriage)<P>Last I checked, your W has been doing most of those things for free. Why? Because she doesn't love you? Ok, who else is she doing those things for? You know, I help out my H also and he thought I did not love him...... Man this stuff smells familar and it stinks!!!<P>snl...Orchid, I do not know why you equate doing stuff automatically with love. I do things, even kindly things for lots of people, it does not mean I am in-love with them. W gets stuff to, I work hard and have supported her for 24 years, so one could say it is a quid pro quo.<P>orchid...Ok, take alook at that OW. Perfect match, get along great and what has she done for love? Remember you did say in previous posts that you know the OW loves you. So going on that premise, here goes:<P>A. OW has met you in a hotel and undressed.<BR>B. OW has threatened suicide if you tell her<BR>C. OW talked to you many times. <P>Well, as for item A. that need can be met and paid for by some women (don't want to disclose their profession). Item B - that doesn't sound like a loving thing to me (IMHO). Item C - talk is cheap? Sometimes, proof is in the pudding (or the merangue - sp?)<P>snl...She (or any op) has only limited opportunities to do stuff orchid, you know that, that does not mean she is using me, (or I her), it just means the relationship needs more opportunity to grow into other things, but typically the bs (and rest of the world) interferes in this process. I would be interested in a philosophic examination of what you imply, it is something I have given a great deal of thought to, but w will read this, and it will anger her, she is unable to seperate my investigations, from our reality.<P>orchid...So, if this were not about you and your W but someone else and you read the comparison who would you say really loved who? <P>snl..I would say I do not have enough data.<P>orchid...But hey, try paying your W for all that she does, maybe it will be easier to let you go. Don't short change her now, you may have to keep her then.<P>snl...So I should make marriage a financial consideration?<P>orchid...Look, I am concerned about you both. I know you can both be nice and giving people. Somehow you kinda both have taken each other for granted some more than others and are quick to not appreciate each other. STOP THAT!!!!!<P>snl...Has my vote, I tell her often I do appreciate her contributions, that this is not about her, it is about me and who I am, and that I accept my obligations re her support. But what I must tell her too cause it is the truth, and radical honesty demands it, is than I do not FEEL in-love, and am not sure I ever wss or ever will be, and that makes her very very angry, a response I find very strange, and hugely disquieting. <P>orchid...Also, stop putting your feelings under the other person's name. My H did that to me and I am very sensative when that happens. Maybe that is why I started this thread. <P>snl..This is a contentious subject, I would like to feel safe her to not only voice my feelings, but vent some if I feel the need. She follows me around, gets angry, then starts a he said, she said, and it gets ugly. This is suppose to be a safe place, it is not for me.

Hi Snl,<P>Gotcha talkin'.....not hard to do but you sound a bit tired. Been takin a beating out here??!?!?! <P>You speak of radical honesty. You know there is a saying that kinda goes that 1/2 the battle is won at the planning table. Maybe bad analogy but it is not only what is said but the delivery that is just as important. <P>You want radical honesty, well have you ever wondered how that should be delivered? How would you like it delivered? Dropped on your lap, snuck in like when you try to fool your child into taking some medicine? It is good for them, but the delivery can make the difference. <P>Yes, she gets angry. Me too. You know Snl, I have mentioned that my tolerance level of you would be even less than your W's. Yet you take the time to talk with me and share you feelings. <P>Tell me, what kind of reassurance are you giving your W? Does she need it, deserve it? Do you? <P>You both are welcomed here. You are can use this forum for what it was designed. Using this forum to promote an A is not a smart move. Some have tried and exposed. Is this a good thing? For marriage building purposes, yes for A promoting purposes no. That is why there has been so much of that heated debate stuff out there. <P>Snl, I will tell you, imho, don't analyze too much. Life is too short to be spending your best years ahead of you thinking and rehashing things in your head. Later when you look back all you will see is a man at the computer banging away. No life. No Wife. Nothin'. Kinda sad doncha think? <P>Of course, some people want to live like that or so they say, but do they really mean it? Cuz' if they do then they should run for that divorce court. That is their passport to singleness. Freedom to do as they please. OR is it? <P>Snl, when was the last time you did something fun with your family? Really had a family moment? Are your children growing up without you? What memories will they take with them and share with their children? That is what families are all about. <P>Unfortunately some of our children already have their lives marred with the scar of A or As.. Must we lengthen that scar. Is that how we want to be remembered? <P>Yes, there will always be another we 'could' have married or fell in love with. That is no revelation, that's a given. But we have made our choices. For those of us that want to change spouses like we change clothes well so much for our character. <P>You say that you can't really comment on the experiences of others Wss. But you already have. I know you think that my H's treatment of me made him a jerk. Do you think I was making this stuff up? Maybe I have fooled everyone here and really I'm the jerkette and H is the victim? Oh, how I wish that were true. It would be much easier to fix. <P>You and thinker on the other hand stand a better change of fixing your marriage than I. You both talk. I am married to 'not the Shadow' but the 'silent man'. Sounds like one of those old radio shows. Guess they couldn't do a radio show about a silent man.....LOL!!!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Wasn't that John Wayne movie? Well H is no Duke. <P>Guess what? All Bss are flawed. We are not perfect, never claimed to be because we aren't yet often the feeling is that it is expected that the BS always walk that fine line close to perfection. Is thinker like that? Does she make herself that way or do you help her? Hm....... I driven that way. Yet I am far from perfect, so I am my worst critic. I sense that in Thinker. So you know what she needs? She is in great need of knowing she is supported, emotionally, mentally and physically. Also she needs reassurance. <P>She may balk at it and wonder "why are you being so nice to me". She may not take a compliment well or appreciate when someone (especially family members), does something nice. If she is like that, that is no reason to stop or turn your attention to someone else. It is time to beef up those 2 things even more. More compliments, more reassurance. More hugs and kisses. <P>Doing little things for her, means a lot. I know it does for me. Me, I get hot for my H when I see him cleaning up. Funny?!?!?! Yes it is but it is because, I am so happy to see things get picked up. On the other hand, I get equally depressed when the opposite is done. This is more evident now after my last breakdown. While never medically diagnosed, all the classic syptoms are there and afirmed by our counselor. <P>I am not stupid, but I almost did a stupid thing and if I had succeeded would not be here giving you such a bad time today. <P>Is that what you want to happen to thinker? She is probably in great need of reassurance now. Especially while she is recoverying from her surgery. <P>Don't leave the board, but maybe a break might be good for the both of you. <P>Just stay away from bad association. Ok?!?!?<P>L.

SNL,<P>If you don't feel safe here because w posts here too, there is another good forum at Divorce Busters. To find it search for Michele's Forums.<P>You two could agree on who leaves here...it might be a very wise decision. I would hate to have my H posting here right now, while he is so in the fog. I would move, or ask him to (to another forum).<P>For the sake of a safe place to come, it might be worth considering for one of you.<P>Love and light,<P>Jacky<P>PS: I don't want either of you to leave this forum...this is just a suggestion to alleviate some of the tension between you both.

I think, in terms of communication, both of you need to communicate to each other. There are times SnL, that I see feeling and compassion from you. I have seen, again, another person here (and there have been several) that tell you to stop overanalyzing. People are not computers that spit out streaming data....they are a complex hodge podge of feelings, emotions, needs, desires, and experiences, and as you said yourself differing strengths and weaknesses. Analyzing this is like counting the number of stars you see in the sky each nite...you never finish. <P>I think one of the reasons that T gets so upset that you are here, is that she would love to have the time and attention and respect that you give MB and posters here. I believe that she doesn't feel that from you, as you don't feel it from her. You two constantly LB each other, and then come here to shed two differing views of how you feel about the other. She says she loves you, you say you don't think so. You say you are looking for what the OW gives, she says she wants to give to you what you seek from another. You say you "probably" were never in love with her, nor will you "possibly" ever be. With all due respect, even you, with your analytical style, must realize that statements like that leave the door open to possibilities this could happen. Why not sit down and really look at her, not the parts that you don't like, but the parts that you two have shared that were equally enjoyable. Look at each other in a different light than the one you are currently using. I guess I believe that what you two have is worth it. I believe there is something more than the "responsibility" factor, the "financial consideration" package, the "historical perspectives" portfolio you share with her. For the analytical personality, emotions are difficult to come by because there is not a logical basis for staying or leaving. It is left up to matters of the heart. What would the two of you, both of you, tell a close friend, if your close friends were going through what the two of you are? How would you help them through this nightmare that has been created? Who is wrong? Who is right? Who is hurting more? I believe you are both in your own private hell right now, both, for some reason, wanting to justify your positions by who is suffering more than the other. I agree with Orchid...STOP THAT!!!<P>If you do not, as a couple, grow and add to each other's lives, then yes, you should go your separate ways and give the other the chance to find true happiness, whether with someone else, for finding a new you on your own. I, for one, believe SnL, that you are going to find the same difficulty with your OW (in time), that you have now. When she no longer "fits" the bill, you will find another or go searching. You will become a human pinball bouncing from that "next good fit". That is what analyzing is all about...when you change the data, you have a new set of criteria to deal with, and the search for a new answer (a new fit) starts again.<P>You are in a situation that the "fit" you seek is your own. Does your own suit look good on you? I know you are who you are, and that is neither right or wrong, but I feel you are trying to minimize the role that emotions play in your life. This is not like going to the car dealership, getting the brochure on the latest model, outfitting the options packages you prefer, and ordering the car out of the manual. I guess sometimes, that is what I see in your style...I wonder how much you stuff your emotions and try to keep them out of your life? Is that one of the problems with you and Thinker? Does she not see the true emotions of her H, rather than hearing you analyze your marriage. Does she hear you constantly giving statistical reasons for failure, rather than just committing, even if for a short time to try something different?<P>I hope I am not sounding judgemental here. I am not. I am just trying to shed some light here. There are a great many things that you have said, that once I got past my own issues, I have looked at with a critical eye and understood where you are coming from. I may not agree with everything you say, but do see and understand where it comes from. I guess, I am just trying to be somewhat like that with you and give you some different viewpoints based on watching you. I truly am trying to help in any way I can.<P>*Go confidently in the direction of your dreams.*<P>Trueheart

You know, I have been reading much of the stuff that <B>snl</B> and <B>thinker</B> post, and I have to say -- with snl feeling as he does, I don't see much hope. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]<P>I know I'll be flamed, but it seems to me that <B>thinker</B> is stuck in a lose/lose situation, no matter what she does.<P>My ex used to post and be so angry about my posts -- the radical honesty is essential to the marriage (IMO) and this place should be no different, but we all know it *IS*, because neither party feels safe venting, which is so necessary.<P><B>snl</B> loves his OW, and <B>thinker</B>, more than anyone I bet, knows that one of two things will happen -- either -- <B>snl's</B> love will fizzle out in a two year period -- or -- he will stay with her and have a "Bridges of Madison County" kind of feeling about the "one that left with his heart"... <P>I hope to God I'm wrong (and it *has* happened, of course)... but every once in awhile, it seems that a couple can't find that place of healing. My ex and I were that way... and to be frank, it is only in hindsight that I can see the wrong turns I made (I could see HIS wrong turns at the time, of course [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]).<P>This is serious business. I see <B>thinker</B> as falling into this huge pit and going into a deep depression. Not like she doesn't have enough to worry about with her father's cancer and all. <P><B>Thiinker</B>, I am continually sorry for your pain, and <B>snl</B>, you are a smart man who has convinced himself he's really trying... I do hear you... but I think it's time you made some decisions, before your wife has a nervous breakdown.

Well, everyone, I left SNL yesterday, and was going to stay in a hotel. I had surgery on my knee Monday, H would not take me (work related) so our older daughter took me. I told her thankyou many times. Came home, H was nice, warmed up some canned soup so I could take a narcotic pain. H helped me to bed. Tuesday, got up and our other daughter offered to make me oatmeal for breakfast. H seemed upset cause she didn't make him oatmeal. I said I thanked her for taking care of me. H spent hours on computer again. I got up and made dinner that night. Told H would of been nice to have him make dinner, he said let everyone make their own, and I said what about me? Wednesday, I started to walk on my left toes with the crutches. Laid downstairs until 10am and H was only one home. No breakfast for me again, so I got up and made my own. He finally came downstairs and said hes going on service calls. Was on computer, could hear the clicking. I was left to defend for myself. I wanted him to go to the hospital with me, I wanted him to take care of me. I basically said in the afternoon that I have had enough. I packed my van with food, medications, toiletries, and blankets and etc. I was leaving and I have had enough. When you sit there and see all the time he puts on the computer and just lets me be after I have had surgery, I just said I don't want to be here anymore. <P>When my H and our daughter had warts removed, deep surgery on heels, daughters was really worse than my husbands. First day, daughter changed her bandage and soaked her foot, had a lot of blood in the water. She went pail, and was somewhat sick to her stomach. I finished bandaging her foot and said, I will be more than happy to take care of your foot. She let me for 4 more times. She said she needed to learn how to deal with blood. I bandaged, soaked my H foot, put antibotic cream on. I carried meals up to the computer, and was bandaging his foot until it healed. I wanted to do this to help him heal and get better. It seems he didn't care to help me heal with his touch and caring. It has been shown with touching and listening to those after surgery, recovery is faster. <P>All I wanted was some attention, and caring and TLC. I guess I should not expect it. He said I needed to tell him everything I needed. Counseling last week, was stated that when you offer it is more effective than to have to ask. I guess that is the caregiver in me. H didn't even ask how my dads oncology visit went. I was hurting in pain, and misery for my dads health. My mom is getting wore out, and the way things look, she will have to go to radiation 5/week. <P>Yes, I was crying out in pain. Crying out with hurt. Crying out that my H does not even care enough about me to want to take care of me. I left and told him I will find someone else to take care of me. Someone that loves me. Someone that will love me. I read all the time he never loved me, will never love me. And he can write today he loves the OW. Even though this was the OW 2nd physcial affair. Yesterday, I told him to fly out to Arizona, offered yesterday to call her, and tell her he is yours. Take him and have fun with him, till he dumps you too. Of course they fit like hand and glove, mentally and physcially. <P>I am sick of this analyzing crap. He needs to go to her, and I told him when I left have a good life with her. <P>He called me several times on cellphone. I eventually came home. Next time I know there will be no turning back next time. I did not sleep in the same bed, H asked me to come to our bed, but honestly I couldn't. Slept upstairs in the storage room where an extra bed is made. Cried a lot during the night, said I have had enough, and want out of here. I am so sick of hearing what a rotten person I am. What the OW gave him was wonderful, and what I give is a kind action. <BR>I will never be the OW's fitting, oneflesh, soulmate, lover, munchkin, kissyface, and everything else he calls her. He seems to be totally focused on that relationship. <P>Like I said, I will not post where he posts anymore. He said in a very negative voice to me to not do it anymore. So I won't. But this post was addressed to both of us. Talk about who gets angry. H has had a good source of anger quite often. But it seems he doesn't tell about the episodes he has caused, and the cruel words he has said to me, and how he reacts to the kids. <P>Yes, I wish he would keep his statements from his mouth, not mine. That was one thing I asked him to do. I agree with many of you, there is very little hope for our marriage, and I have come to the conclusion that I will try some, but not as hard as I was. If he doesn't want the marriage, why beat a dead horse. Yes I still love him, and care for him. If he wants a life with someone else, go for it.

I have no real advice...but Thinker, your pain...My God. I don't know how you are able to bear it. I really don't want to say anything wrong.<P>You guys seem to BOTH be headed for some knid of nervous breakdown.<P> SNL..analyze away,and you will find the answers you want to find. It IS called justification. What you say to your W, my H said to me...and when I left him for three weeks and he was with the OW, he LEARNED the real truth. Oh not at first...he was in a romantic cloud with her. <P>Everything he said to me..including "I don't think I ever loved you" was a LIE, to me and more important to himself that he needed to believe. He NEEDED to beleive our M was a mistake...a 27 year mistake. THAT was a lie too.<P>I really think you need some reality, the loss of your W may hurt you more than you know...but I'm sorry I think right now she would be better off wihtout you. <P>If you need to go live in your cloud in order to miss your W,go do it. I just hope she can forgive you when you realize what you are really losing. It will be part of yourself too,like it or not. <P>I wonder if your OW had surgery and you treated her the way you treated your W,how long she would stick it out? I read somewhere that the more you give in a realtionship, the more you are invested? Would you give to her that which you deny your W? <P>You seek truth but truth is subjective to where our heads are. And the truth can come back to bite you in the a$$.What looks like the truth now may wind up a lie later. <P>JEEZ, there is no REAL truth..only perspective, like Phil McGraw says..no reality. Just what it feels like, devoid of "logic". <P>I really hope the both of you can find some peace...you are both suffering so much more than you have to.