This one is the last straw... I've been so incredibly good in Plan A for about 3.5 months, formally for about 1.5 - 2 months since finding MB. Rare LB. WW admits I'm a good person who she could love, if she wanted to. MC says to me that WW's noticed changes, etc., etc. MC says I've been remarkable.<p>Well, my little confession here - I snoop. Have access to her e-mail. And guess what I see today? This is a reply from her first lover, from years ago, plus her original message. Why not post it for the world to see? Who cares anymore? I don't. I honestly don't. I'm done. I'm done Plan A. My love bank is dry, honestly and truly, inspecting to the furthest reaches of my heart.<p>But such bad timing. I haven't had a chance to prepare for Plan B. I don't even know if I want Plan B right now. Plan D would probably suit me even better.<p>Yes, this is partly anger speaking. But then again, it's not going away - I can tell this time. Other times I've been angry, I've known that it's going away. Even if this one fades, it will always be there - a constant drain on my love bank for her, even if things got better.<p>Back to the timing thing... we've got flights to go home next week. We've got a MC session on Saturday. Also having friends of mine over on Saturday. God, I just want to run. I just want to start a new life. I hate her right now. I really, honestly do. Even in her last words to him, about wondering if she'll do the right thing - a tone of evil somehow. She doesn't deserve my love. Oh well, it's pretty much gone anyway.<p>How am I supposed to smile at her when I see her tonight? How am I supposed to survive tomorrow and the next day? How am I supposed to give a damn about someone I hate?<p>This morning on the train, I'd started writing a nice Plan A letter. My original plan was to do a series of these letters - about 10-15 or so. By the time I got to the end, I would have felt that I was done with Plan A. I've done about 5 so far. I think I'll add the following to the end of my note. It kind of shifts the tone, but hey, my feelings have shifted also. Hopefully this will start to put the fear of God into her - she certainly doesn't fear Him today. Kind-of Dobson sounding, I know. But I don't feel like I have anything to lose. If it's a LB, it's one that's based on my honest, true feelings, and it's something that is 100% true - radical honesty.<p>>>
So, W, that's what I look for in the future. I will achieve it, because I'm not afraid of the future. Why? Because I have grown. I have changed in many ways, in many ways you can see, and in so many ways that you can't see - that you currently are hiding from, maybe. At times during this, I question whether you've ever really wanted to know me.<p>W, it's a funny thing, really, being so close to a problem. One can lose all perspective so easily. But I've had some time to think recently, and I've gained some new insights, some new perspective. This is no longer about what you want to do. This is all about what I want to do. It's that simple. When we get back from our trip, we will sit down and have a very, very serious discussion about our future. It's that simple, really.<p>Kind of a negative tone to end on? If it sounds like I'm angry or pressuring, please perish the thought. As I said, I'm thinking more clearly now than I have in 13 years, my dear. Thirteen years indeed.
<<<p>WW has some very serious personality issues. I thought I could stand by and support her. I can't. She's hurting me too much. I will be going to Plan B as soon as I can.<p>What do I do in the short term? For tomorrow, do I ask her not to be there when my friends come over? (I can tell them she had to work, blah, blah.) What do we do in our C session? I don't know if I have the power to even LB - I'm dead inside right now - being cold and distant is about the best I can manage. Of course, she'll have to suspect something, won't she. Well, I'm not going to tell her what I know, but I know what I know now - and that's okay. I knew that looking in would have some benefit some day.<p>Okay, here's that $#@%@ e-mail:<p>Hi there,<p>Good to hear from you. I think it's been a couple of months. Regardless, time is flying by real fast. Of course I'm staying out of trouble. There really is no time to get into it. We are looking forward to Christmas with (son). He is too young to appreciate it yet, so next year will be better
for that reason.<p>How are you doing? It sounds like you have a story to tell. I hope you are okay. Of course I'm interested so please fill me in. What did you "bring on"? Anytime you want to talk, drop a note. You know I can keep a secret so no worry about that. I've kept a few in my time. I'll be here to whole time you're here. My family is going to -- for this time to visit my brother, but of course I am not. So far, I'm working the 24th, 27th, 28th, 31st and Jan 2 on. That may change, but I doubt it. You can email or give a call here, or at home --. Keep in mind my home email is not a personal one. Here's my work numbers if you don't have them: -- or --. I'd like to catch up over lunch or coffee or something. Don't think I don't take the time to smile :-) I'm not dead afterall.<p>Anyway, here's my latest story. [a bunch of #@%$ omitted for brevity]<p>Hope to hear from you soon,<p>OM #1<p>-----Original Message-----<p>Hey (OM1),
So, you keeping out of trouble? For once, I bet you you are. This must be an exciting Christmas for you, with your little boy around now.<p>I'm coming home on the 23rd, and will be coming back to -- on the 3rd. Will you be around at all? It would be great to have lunch. Research is going okay. I just got word this week that I've been accepted to attend a workshop in Spain. I was in total shock because they only accepted 30 people world wide to attend. And all the Big Shots will be there, so I think I'll be able to make some really good contacts.<p>My personal life is another story. Currently a big disaster. Of course, brought on by myself. Yes, I'm still married. But we're hanging on by a thread. I have not told ANYONE in -- about our problems (not my parents, not Greg, none of my friends), so please keep this to yourself. I'll fill you in later, if you are interested. I guess if anyone would understand, it would be you. Our lives have been very similar, in so many ways. But you have had the courage to do
the right thing in the end. I wonder if I will....<p>I still smile when I think of you. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>W

J.R.,<p>Never start plan B unprepared & in anger ... you know better than that. Never end plan A with wrong note. So ... go to the gymn find a punching bag and let it out or pump some iron out.<p>Does A ever out in the daylight ?. Does she ever promised to end it ?

Dear J.R,<p>I am so so sorry about this email. I read both of them and felt terrible, I know how you must be feeling, believe me, I felt like it was me when reading this crap. I got sick to my stomache.<p>Try and remember your W is in an addiction. And you can't control her, she'll have to dig herself out of this, ALONE. <p>I want to say more but I'm ready to leave work. I just wanted you to know that I read this and I know how you're feeling. I'm really sorry, you do NOT deserve this. And ther is no excuse for having an A ... PERIOD!<p>Pls take care and know we're here for you.<p>Jo<p>[ December 14, 2001: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

J.R. wow I'm really sorry that you are feeling so distraught tonight. I know it's tough when you snoop and what you find can be so devastating. Especially when you think things are getting somewhat better. You are really angry right now so do not attempt to make any decisions about this tonight. I know it's hard. Take redhat's advice and do something constructive to get rid of the anger.<p>Remember plan A is about you and it sounds as though you are doing a good plan A also remember that plan A should be at least 6mos. You say that you have been in Plan A for nearly 2mos. I know the information you found today is tough to deal with but are you really ready to give up? Please think about it. Good luck.
C

Thanks all,<p>SIGH - I know the Plans well... I've read and read. I just don't know what I really want right now. I know I'm angry, I know she's in an addiction. But I also know that she's obviously been in contact with OM#1, likely since the start, which was about 10 years ago (yes, before we were married). This is something more sinister than just a long-term affair. It goes a lot deeper.<p>I just don't look at her the same way anymore. Even if she changed overnight, it's just going to be different, and I really have to question the value of our M right now.<p>However..... that being said..... I feel that I will try to continue Plan A so "buy time" FOR MYSELF. Allowing me to make a more informed decision later.<p>However..... I have always planned on going to Plan B, no later than the end of January. That's 5 months from d-day. In re-reading Distressed's misapplication of Plan A, I believe it isn't unreasonable to go to B after maybe even 4, assuming the conditions are right - demonstration of change, change in one's feelings of love, etc. I have recently reached a point of what I'd call "quiet acceptance", and maybe that's why I've been doing a decent Plan A. I don't know.<p>In any case, I also believe that it's time to start adopting a slightly different attitude. I'm not sure what that is yet, but she needs to know that something is coming, and to know that I deserve respect - something she's obviously not given me at all for years.... and that she isn't completely in control here - I know how that will affect her - I know her pretty darn well. Too well. Kind of makes me sick, really.<p>Oh well, I have to clean the carpet - friends coming over tomorrow - will be fun - for me at least.

A brief update from this evening....<p>WW came home at a reasonable hour. I was pleasant, as usual. Suggested I go out and grab some McD - she saw I left her a note - I did include those lines at the end. I figure - why not? How much of a LB is the truth?<p>When I came back, she was quite talkative, not overly emotional - that's been getting better and better actually, less overt fogese directed at me in a hurtful way. I'm not sure if that's just her withdrawing, or actually coming out of the fog. Who knows...<p>Anyway, we had a reasonable evening. I cleaned the carpet, she did dishes. We talked casually. She went to bed, I sat on the side, talked about nothing for a little bit, gave her a kiss good-night on the cheek.<p>So... I've been thinking. I have to wonder about her. Recently she admitted that she hasn't been telling all to MC... I wondered about that. She also said that she wanted to talk about her childhood to the MC earlier in her counseling, but hasn't done so until just last time. And then after last time, in her little "update" for me, she mentioned that C said she now saw our situation in a new light. I tend to wonder - if there's something out there that might relate to SA or something. I just don't know. WW seems to be acting more... different lately. More like herself in some ways... Then there was that conversation with her friend where it sounded like she and OM weren't getting along too well. And she talks openly like she assumes we'll be together for a long time. So much information. I think I just need to fall back to a more defensive position and wait more. I think there's something going on here that has to play itself out some more. Think about it. A woman who has what she claims is a purely PA before we're married, commits to me happily, continues, gets dissatisfied, falls into another A, this time supposedly an EA, although I must question that seriously. I know she's had a troubled childhood. But can it really result in all of this? Can it actually justify it? I don't know - nothing can justify an A. In one of her superb fogese moments not too long ago, she said something like, "I just got to a point where I thought, you know (W), you only live once" - yes, but at my expense - at the expense of nearly destroying someone you KNOW loves you, damn it!! [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Okay, got that out, I feel a bit better.<p>So what do you think? Am I on to something here? She's acting strangely. Not necessarily fitting the prototypical WS mold in some ways. She can actually "see" the fog - has admitted she KNOWS she's not acting like herself, just can't seem to help it.

J.R.,<p>I don’t know if your on to something here or not. What I do see is what looks like a roller coaster. Her actions are inconsistent and you are trying to interpret them. Not a good thing to do with a WS. Since they seldom say what is really going on with them, any assumptions are made with incomplete info. Be careful.<p>Perhaps you are seeing what you want to see in her actions, perhaps not. It might be best for you to continue working on yourself and pay less attention to her every swing. Look at this.. You have gone from having almost no love for her, to hoping in one day. How many times a day do you still make this swing? Far too many is my guess. Your plan of moving to Plan B next month might be the way to go if she does not come clean with everything, do no contact letters with OM #1 and #2, agrees to seriously work on your marriage. <p>Her email to OM#1 is probably a very good look into where her head is. Has she ever promised you to have no more contact with him? If she did, and she is emailing him and making lunch dates, then any outward appearance of her coming out of the fog is very dubious. She knows he is married but she may have lunch with him and tell him all about her marriage? I think that your initial, gut reaction is the one to pay attention to. Sometimes spend and lot of energy talking ourselves out of what we know is the truth. <p>Recently received and replied to email from a man I have had an on again/off again relationship with since I was 13. When I did this, I showed my H (SeenTheLight) the email and my reply to it. Told him that I wanted to make sure that any communications with anyone who could be suspect was above board. Until your wife can do that.. As long as she is hiding anything from you, she is not even close to being out of the fog.<p>If there is a disconnect between a person’s words and their actions, always bank on the actions. Words are cheap and easy to throw around. Actions on the other hand are exactly what we are thinking and doing. It’s hard to fake an action but easy to spin words.<p>Just go slowly now as you have been. Work on yourself. Plan A her. Give it a little more time. Do not go to Plan B out of anger or hurt over any one incident. But, remember to not wait until all of your love for her is gone. <p>I am so sorry to give you a less then positive assessment here. I want to see you doing well.

J.R,
I saw most of the post here is that when the coaster near the end, the ride is getting rougher and faster, in and out of the fog faster than usual. Whatever the outcome is something is coming, good or bad. I think is because of WS has seen the changed and they get more confused and torned. Funny thing if you do plan A properly, you are ready for it and it is easier since you might get occational bonus [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] . Hang in tough, buddy. The 'coaster ride has to end somehow, no one could take it forever ... whoever could not take it first ... WS or you will have to act. BS w/ plan B or WS with ending the A.

Thanks for the comments once again...<p>Here's my take on things...<p>- A #1 never really ended - they kept in contact, thus keeping the A alive at least in theory for over 8 years.<p>- A #2 is doomed. When that "in love" feeling starts to go, my goodness, she's in for a shocker.<p>- The e-mail exchange - sounds like OM1 may at least be trying to set up another sexual encounter - his parent's place sounds available, does it not? This is interesting - that she's not willing to have sex with me, but would be willing to cheat on OM #2 with OM #1? How messed up is that?<p>- WW has been into a lot of self-denigrating comments - I wonder out loud about deeper psychological issues - childhood issues, etc. - I could almost accept that more easily than simply her being a selfish B**** for so many years.<p>- She admits that she's messed up emotionally. She once said she "misses herself" - i.e. her "old self" - so she does have the capacity to see her own fog. This seems a bit unusual among WS. Our IC/MC noted last time that it was a "hopeful sign".<p>- Honestly, outwardly she does not want to lose me. That's something I've come to believe. Why? Comments here and there. Just being observant, I guess. Trust me, though. I think if she were to face the full force of Plan B, it would be devastating on her - at some point. I think I'm her father figure - the urge to rebel is strong - but the thought of losing her father - devastating. She's said things like "I just know we'll always love each other", "I know I can count on you", "Who knows, maybe we'll remarry some day", etc., etc. - sounds like fantasy? Well, it is, babe.<p>>>> You have gone from having almost no love for her, to hoping in one day. How many times a day do you still make this swing? <<<<p>Well, truth be told, not nearly so many recently. I've started feeling quiet acceptance, maybe like an outside observer or something. This particular thing got me riled up, yes, but mainly because I'd been focusing on what I thought was the only on-going A. Knowing that OM #1 is still in the picture, well, it just adds to my love bank overdraft.<p>>>> As long as she is hiding anything from you, she is not even close to being out of the fog. <<<<p>Yikes, been in the fog for nearly a decade now!!! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>>>> I think is because of WS has seen the changed and they get more confused and torned. <<<<p>Yes, I haven't had to do much, to be honest. To be truthful, she's always claimed I'm such a great guy. And when she complains... it's not about traits or behaviours, but about SPECIFIC EVENTS in the past that she was hurt over. She has no real capacity to forgive, truly. And her philosophy is that "Everything I need to know about you is in how you treat me." She expects me to read her mind. She assumes nearly everything. These are all things MC has tried to help her with - but with little success.<p>In any case, our IC/MC noted to me once a while ago that she DOES notice changes in me. So I feel that is checked off. Am I losing my feelings for her? You bet. That's checked off. The only thing I wait for is a final point of willingness in my head - that I've done everything I can in Plan A. Plus logistics.

Hi J.R. - Yea, this sucks, huh?<p>I recommend you get hot writing a Plan B letter and make plans to separate as a contingency. I think a lot of Plan A'ers get an emotional boost just writing the Plan B letter - it made me feel stronger.<p>Of course you realize you have to separate first, before Plan B, right?<p>Perhaps ask your MC whether you should make plans to move in full view of your wife - my recommendation - or do it without her knowledge. Of course the latter method could be considered dishonest. If she knows and you go about it deliberately, she'll know you're serious and who knows what she'll do - especially if she REALLY sees some of her faults.<p>Your other choice is to rally your strength and continue Plan A. Take the 'coaster around another lap to see if she continues some meaningful discussion with the counselor.<p>Seems most of us here have kids which makes all these decisions MUCH more difficult - especially going to Plan B. You have more flexibility - not to mean you have it easier - but Plan B for you can REALLY be effective to shield you from further pain.

J.R.:<p>First...I don't see the email as that bad. I would definetly bring it up & let her know that it hurt your feelings. Maybe at MC session.<p>Second...If W has childhood issues & she wants to deal with them...that's a good step. Obviously from her email she feels that OM#1 made a "good" & "right" choice. I'm assuming that means to stay w/ his M. Take that as a "good" sign not evil.<p>If she is even the slightest bit aware of her fog that's also good.<p>Don't give up..It really sounds like she's trying to "find" herself.<p>Do you think she's still involved with OM#2???

Hi there J.R.<p>I agree with the posts you have received. Zorweb and WAT's posts seem to strike a cord with me.<p>I personally think you should plan on going to Plan B in Jan. More than a few people here have come back and stated they Plan A's too long. The Harley's also make the comment if you go too long you lose the ability to recover the marriage even if the WS sees the light and wants the marriage.<p>I think you are getting to this point. I would go on vacation with her. Come back and decide where YOU are in this and then proceed to Plan B unless something new has come up. <p>I am making this suggestion based on your comments that you are becoming complacent with the situation. Someone here used to have a Weisman quote around here: "The opposite of love is not hate, it is indifference."<p>You don't want to get to the indifference stage. Also the Harley's point out that the Plan B should be sudden, not discussed as sort of a threat. I would stronly recommend that you discuss this with them or your counselor. <p>I don't see her email as that damning unless she had promised to never contact him. I do see it as dangerous. I would make a copy of it and keep it just in case. But your problem is your feelings for her and her dealing with her own problems. It isn't really the affairs in my mind.<p>J.R. you have been here for awhile and you have done well. You are still doing well so hang in through the holidays and see what is up.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

Hi all,<p>Zorweb - Has she ever promised you to have no more contact with him?<p>Nope, never. Then again, I only discovered this after d-day #1. At the time, I was essentially doing Plan A, so I've avoided pushing things too hard. I want to resolve current EA before tackling the first one.<p>Zorweb - She knows he is married but she may have lunch with him and tell him all about her marriage? I think that your initial, gut reaction is the one to pay attention to. Sometimes spend and lot of energy talking ourselves out of what we know is the truth.<p>Yes, very wise observation. My gist of HIS message was that he's hoping for a bit of sex from her, if he can get it.. and I'm sure he can. It's a strange situation, but obviously not unique. She's clearly in the fog, acting like an addict, etc., yet is trying to say and do SOME things that seem rational. I've tried to stop analyzing this, just observe, gather intelligence, and work on myself.<p>louser - If W has childhood issues & she wants to deal with them...that's a good step. Obviously from her email she feels that OM#1 made a "good" & "right" choice. I'm assuming that means to stay w/ his M. Take that as a "good" sign not evil.<p>Yes, this is actually making it harder for me right now. We went together (3rd time) to MC yesterday. It was kind of intense. WW admitted that she's never been forgiven for anything in her life, and she doesn't even know what it IS in a way - she can't seem to give or receive it, truly. One manifestation of this is that fact that she's never been able to truly forgive me for things in the past that she's interpreted as being thougtless or unkind - she's held on to these, and used them as an interpretation of what I think about her. She also admits that any time she felt herself getting close to me over the last years, it would trigger her guilt (from A #1) - kind of like getting your hand slapped every time you reach for a cookie. And she admits that she's incapable of forgiving HERSELF for anything - so this has festered into the ugly mess it is now. MC asked her how it would feel if I could forgive her? She said it would be good and bad - bad in that she'd feel obligated to have to try and make our M work (and she doesn't want that right now, because of OM #2).<p>Hearing this made a lot of sense to me. It was good to have the exchange. But it also makes me feel guilty about even thinking about Plan B right now. I mean, yes, there are some issues here that, if resolved, might help our M. But she is clearly still involved with OM #1 and OM #2. It's clearly an addictive situation. I don't know how much any degree of counseling is going to address that as a core issue. These other issues related to childhood, our own relationship, etc. - would be nice to resolve, but I don't think will make our M better - she needs to give up her A and commit to a new life with me - and she's nowhere close to that.<p>louser - Don't give up..It really sounds like she's trying to "find" herself.<p>I see her struggling and in pain, and I feel empathy for her. I really do. I want her to get better. That's why I'm still here, in Plan A. I also recognize that based on the breadth and depth of this situation, I can only go so far in Plan A. Sadly, I suspect W will need to hit rock bottom in Plan B before she comes up for air - if she comes up for air!<p>JL - I personally think you should plan on going to Plan B in Jan.<p>I agree. My plan is this. Plan A for now. Going home at Christmas - "Plan A" our families - let them know I'm there for my W (even though they don't know the story yet, they obviously will soon). Work on myself - have as good a time that I can - been laughing more, having a good time at work more - all very good signs for myself. I will continue to write WW the Plan A letters I've intended to. She reads them, says she cried over 1 or 2 so far - if true, would be a change. Will continue with the IC/MC - our C actually agrees that something like Plan B will likely be necessary at some point. One thing I will do, however, is sit down with W near the end of Jan and do a "checkpoint" - I've avoided asking much about her and OM, and this would be an opportunity to confirm that yes, she's still seeing him, and yes, she has no intention of stopping. If that's the case, then that becomes my trigger for Plan B. Prior to that, I'll do all my necessary preparation, expecting the worse.<p>JL - Also the Harley's point out that the Plan B should be sudden, not discussed as sort of a threat. I would stronly recommend that you discuss this with them or your counselor.<p>Yes, the way WW has been talking, she clearly expects us to be together for a while in one breath, then talks about how she wants to leave (but never does!) in another. So I do believe it will be a total shock for her.<p>I have given some subtle foreshadowing - e.g. letting her know that divorce for me doesn't mean we can keep going on as buddies - it's over - no contact, no help if she gets in a bind. These kinds of misconceptions have fueled her fantasy world.<p>I've talked about Plan B with our C (alone). She's very supportive of the idea, agrees with it, asked all the right questions of me ("you do realize that it might be the end of your M?", "you shouldn't do it in anger", etc.).<p>JL - But your problem is your feelings for her and her dealing with her own problems. It isn't really the affairs in my mind.<p>I can see that, yes. She has hidden some serious personality issues for a long, long time. I had only slight hints about them in the early days, but had been too blinded by being "in-love" to really think about them. She appears to be starting to take some larger steps in addressing some of her issues. Her opening up to C has been a slow process. Just as her getting to the point of admitting A #1 took some time. This is one thing, as I said above, that puts me in a difficult spot. I feel obligated to stand by her, even though I think that she's not motivated enough to do everything that's necessary for her to "get better". She really isn't, and knowing her, knowing the situation - it's not going to happen by me just showing the good will of Plan A.<p>Anyhow, we had some of my friend over last night for Christmas drinks - I think she had a good time, even though she might not want to admit it. Was laughing, showing pictures of our trips, etc., etc.<p>Breaking news... WW woke up, so I had to stop writing. Continuing now... this AM, she takes my hand, and admits that she has an addiction!! She says that she knows what's best, that intellectually, she knows being with OM #2 is a bad idea (would have to move to Korea, etc.) - but can't help herself. We then had a bit of a discussion about addiction in general - tends to confirm that yes, she really can see this as an addiction, that she has an addictive personality, etc.<p>She says that given my statement in my last letter, about us having to sit down sometime after we get back and have a serious talk - that right now, if she had to chose between me and her addiction, it'd win. I say, "uh huh, I understand" - keeping in Plan A form - and now I have yet more food for thought. Things do get more and more complicated, as expected.