Hi all

I was wondering what peoples views were on allowing sf with a ws while his/her A is still going on.

In my case, I feel that I am now having an A with my H. This has been going on for the last moth and I have very mixed views on it. Sf is his top EN and I have failed to meet it in the past as I didnt realise just how important it was to him. I also didnt realise how important it was to me.

My h is living at the ow house and spends a few nights a week at our house - this has only started sine we started sf, before, he was living full time with ow. He tells ow that he needs his space and needs to get up early for work (he runs a shop from home) and that he sleeps in the spare room. He lied to ow about Christmas telling her that I was going away and that he wanted to spend the day by himself rather than with her family (it was a big family do at her mothers). Instead, he asked me to stay and spent the day with me.

I feel that it is wrong to engage in sf with a spouse involved in an A but on the othert hand I can see that it is fulfilling a major need of my h that contributed to the A in the first place. Has anyone been involved in a similar situation?

Thanks
LH

<small>[ December 26, 2002, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: Losing_hope ]</small>

There are 2 sides to this situation. Some may say that you are depositing units into his LB for fullfulling his SF. Others may say that you are ENABLING HIM to continue in this destructive not only mentally but physically behavior. I say physically due to the fact that he is having sex with both YOU and the OW. Please make him use protection if you continue sleeping with him!

You are both "using" each other, SF isn't so much a need as it is an expression of bonding between 2 people (note 2 NOT 3, or more). His behaviour is the more reprehensible, since he openly is making it clear harems are ok with him, not to mention lieing to those he is intimate with, so the question is really about you...why do you think so little of yourself that you would

1. Accept being in his harem.

2. Use him for your sexual needs when you are not in a committed relationship (marital license notwithstanding).

3. Apparently think so little of yourself that you will risk the lifetime serious risks of std's with a man you obviously cannot trust. And please tell me you realize getting pregnant would be a huge mistake, you aren't hoping for that are you (meaning you are taking precaustions so that WON'T happen aren't you)?

So no LH, it is not a good idea, there are nothing but bad outcomes, and beating yourself up about SF as a need and you not supplying it is hogwash. SF is an expression of love not a mechanical thing to meet, and anyone who leaves the marriage for sexual gratification alone is unworthy as a marital partner, and may very well be a sexual addict. You need to step back, put in place firm boundaries (meaning no contact with your ws) until he committs to reconcillation efforts. Accepting in your face affairs is not what MB is about. And even if he eventually comes back (under your current behaviour), it won't be for YOU, it will just be cause the other thing didn't work out, and you are convienient, until next time.

<small>[ December 26, 2002, 12:04 PM: Message edited by: LurkingAbout ]</small>

I chose not to have SF. In a session with Steve Harley, I asked him that question & he said it didn't matter much either way as long as
- it's wasn't being withheld for revenge
-not doing it to hold onto the WS
-to protect yourself as there is so much STD's, etc today.

D.

I have to respond to you!

I was in the same boat for almost a year! Back and forth with SF , good or bad?

The thing is I think it was good for a little while, but I actually contributed to the confushion of it all. And it prolonged the affair without a dought. My h was also living with the OW, and needing the closeness from me. It was torcher. I finaly got strong enough to do plan b. A week into it he came home! Now I'm faced with a new chanlange. He is still in majore fog. He sees her all the time and spends the night. The roles are reversed once more. I'm asking him to move out today if he can't agree with no contact.

I will be going straight to plan B no plan A.

My sugestion to you is if you do not want to prolong his affair , stop contributing to it! Go to plan B. He seems to still have a conection to you other wise he would not be spending so much time over. It's very hard I know , and the much needed atention from your h is hard to turn down. And the desire he has to be close to you when you feel regected. But you will feel stronger, and better about your self. And that's the start.

And if he decideds to come back becouse of your 180, please make him stay in a nutral place first and astablish a joint agreement before he returns if he does. And make sure all contact has ceased, well before he makes it home.

I'm only telling you things to think about here, in the futre tence also , becouse your h sounds so similar to mine.

I would stop the contact right now and make his head spin. No discushions about your marriage, and really start to move on and let go dispite your love and desire for him. I don't want anyone to experiance the torcher I've gone through, by anabling the affair as I have.

I will only take my h back next time around if he proves to me by actions not words that he wants me our marriage and no one else. I'm not a bitter spouse, these sugestions are comeing from a Bs that feels nothing but love and understanding to the WS, and is being takein advantage of beyond belif.

Please reread what I wrote. He's already seen your willingness to work things out. Some plan A's need to be shorter than others. I think the ones that are involved emotionaly and physicaly and are living together, is an example of short plan A. JMHO.

By your statements, you seem to feel somewhat like an OW yourself, even though you rightfully hold the position of wife. However, I must agree with previous posters that mentioned allowing SF when you are aware of the circumstances is NOT going to bring about a healthy conclusion to the A. He's lying to her, he's lied to you. I don't see him coming back to you for SF as a redeeming quality. He's not remorseful (or he'd move back), he's not a reformed liar (he's still doing that), he's not looking out for your best interests (obviously) etc. He's showing no efforts to rebuild the marriage, only to enjoy sex with multiple women. What man wouldn't enjoy that? Most would. They are commonly called "cake-men" here. (this can apply to women too). Until you insist on being the one and only, he's going to continue "getting some" from both of you. Because "getting some" is all he's interested in. If he were making love instead of "getting some", he would be attempting to make himself more loveable by meeting other major ENs (like moving home!!)

Losing_hope:

As you stated, SF was contributing factor in this mess, you have to do it. It is part of your plan A beside it will be LB to OW.

-rh-

You may want to consider going to plan B.

Nope...I couldn't even put up with a continued friendship...never mind him having SF with the two of us! No way!

Interesting...

This thread is going in the Emotional Needs forum too with the complete opposite responses.

I see it as an act of desperation and a lure to get the WS back. He is enjoying a double dose of SF while two women compete over him. His ego must be in the clouds.

jmho

tagging off <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Well, I'm going to go against the flow.

I had SF with my husband almost everytime I saw him - at his initiation in the last 6 months before we reconciled. It is a big need for him, and I hadn't done a good job meeting it for him over the years.

Actually though, I can't say it was a Plan A tactic, because I had filed for divorce. But because I had decided that Plan B wasn't going to work for my situation, I was using Plan A simply to just get along with him.

And to be very frank with you - I intentionally slept with him whenever he wanted it, because I'd spent enough time here at MB to understand that everytime I slept with him, I was throwing a wrench into the works with his OW. Nasty and vengeful, yes it was. I encouraged him to cheat on his OW with me, his wife <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

And I can tell you after 18 months of strong recovery, that my willingness to build that emotional bond, meet that need and help with the breakdown of the affair, was a huge factor in our reconciliation.

Becareful though. Use protection. Don't expect anything. I always told my husband - "No strings attached, no expectations - I just want you..."

Keeping MY expectations out of the picture was the key.

It worked for me - I have a great relationship with my husband now, and the OW is long gone...

I heard a Harley radio question on this, and he recommended that the W avoid "competition" with OW if at all possible. Go to Plan B. Best advice is to move -- leave the state.

A friend of mine was in that situation. She moved into an apartment, and her H came over several times per week. He had the house for his lover. She got sick of it and took a job four hours drive away. That woke him up. About 9 months later, he ended the A.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by stronger:
<strong>I heard a Harley radio question on this, and he recommended that the W avoid "competition" ..... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you read about plan A in SAA ... it is all about competing w/ OP !. It depends on situation ... look at the detail.

Again, like what BrambleRose's experience ... If SF was one of the contributing problem in this A then WS has no choice to do it .... it is part of plan A otherwise it doesn't matter, it is personnal preferences.

-rh-

why in the world would you want to compete with the ow??????? Bullpucky, he wants her, let her have him, I will find someone who isn't into harem shopping. That isn't exactly the character I want in a man, and those who get such men back, deserve what they get (someone they can never trust, cause they are COMPARISON SHOPPERS). This whole notion of giving someone "better" sex so they will love you is slightly (sarcasm intended) nauseateing. IMO the tough love approach is how you find out if someone has any salvageable character. You cut them off now, completely, and they better work very hard to come back, and that is with no encouragement at all, just a civil plan a. Then maybe, just maybe, you have a spouse who is worthy. This idea of gee, I will compete sexually with the ow so they will like me better reduces one to being a piece of ...well to each their own I guess. But I think how someone comes back is very important to the long term success, anyone can achieve a short term success (happens all the time, often sexually based), lets check back a decade from now.

As for the one poster who is claiming success, there are always exceptions, but her success is short term, so who knows whether her H, or that marriage, will go the distance and be as good for her as it is for him. Maybe she will always have to make sure she is "better" than any other choices he may come across, doesn't seem very desireable. IMO it is better someone wants you because of you, not cause you give better sex. IN fact, they would choose you even if the sex isn't so wonderfull. There is no place for sex in reconcilliation efforts, it just masks other issues with passion, but they will come back. I agree with the harley's, using sex is not a good idea... that it might occassionally work is just real life. Occassionally being in a car wreck without a seatbelt on will save your life, sometimes the seatbelt kills you...but do you then drive around without the seatbelt on? Some make that very argument, and they will (and do) suffer the results of the poor risk assessment. The issue here was is sex with a spouse in an affair a good idea, and the answer is NO it is not. The occassional anecodtal report that "it worked for me" does not alter that truth, proceed at your own risk. On the other hand, you cannot possible lose a worthy spouse by using tough love (they will figure themselves out), but you can lose the marginal spouses, and isn't that a good thing?

Myself, I don't want a spouse who has any special interest in sex per se, I want a spouse who is interested in me, the sex will take care of itself. This notion someone has a special need for great sex as a bedrock to a relationship is very shallow, that someone has sex as a #1 EN, is all the more reason to avoid them as a marital partner...Why? Cause they don't care who they are married too, they just want a great sex partner, and any woman can fill that need, I am nothing special. Redhat, you (I think) are male, it seems males are more likely to treat sex as a thing, independent of the woman providing it...I think the idea that (some)males "need" sex as a connetion is true, they will stay with someone who gives them better sex, I just don't think that males who feel that way make good mates. I prefer a man who is interested in a relationship, and enjoys sex with me because of the relationship...not needs sex to feel connected to me. Your advice "feels" very male oriented, that does not mean it is the best advice for a woman.

<small>[ December 28, 2002, 08:42 AM: Message edited by: LurkingAbout ]</small>

Wow... I haven't posted in months, and today TWO MB's are asking the same questions I asked myself for months, and I feel compelled to reply.

During our attempted reconciliation period, I happily re-established a physical connection with my H. Note, I said physical, not just sexual. We had become estranged both emotionally and physically.. no hand holding or touching of any kind, much less actual sex! It's a major need for him, and I thought it was one way in which I could show him that I loved him and wanted to meet his needs. I also worked on meeting his other needs, for admiration, for recreation, etc.,etc.

I suspected that he was still seeing OW, and probably sleeping with her, but I didn't ask, and he certainly didn't tell. He told me he couldn't imagine life without me, and we just needed to work through some of our other issues. In fact, he asked me to move back home and I planned to do that.

Then, I found out that he was not only seeing OW#1, but also OW #2..

My point is, I ended up feeling used and much worse than I would have had we NOT slept together. To me, the physical part of our relationship was a real bonding.. and for him.. well, who knows.

I didn't realize that LH had posted this here. I can see why the posts are different, these are two different boards with people in 2 completely differently places in their life. LH is going to have to do what she is comfortable with. I have posted back and forth to her for sometime and am confident that she is responsible enough to protect herself from pregnancy and STD's.
One of H biggest needs is SF, it is also a part of their relaionship that had problems. IMHO to with hold at this point would be a HUGE Lber and Plan A is to elimate all LBer's. Now I am not saying let H come over for a quick roll in the sheets and then hop out of bed and leave. But if their relationship is growing it is only natural that SF would follow. My H and I had sex at least 1 time a week throughout our M. I was to say the least 15 min of relieving tension. It was not about satisifing or loving the other. We reconnected in away that we hadn't in years and SF was better than it had ever been. It was vital to our recovery.

Lurking
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As for the one poster who is claiming success, there are always exceptions, but her success is short term, so who knows whether her H, or that marriage, will go the distance and be as good for her as it is for him. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This interests me, how can you determine the level of her sucess or the longevity of her M by the fact that she didn't withhold SF? I find that to be very presumptous on your part.

Hang in the LH, I really think you have grown here and done a remarkable Plan A. Your H is trying to come out of withdrawal and once you get him to the state of intimacy you should then be able to negoiate NC with OW JMHO.
le

Wow Lurking - what alot of assumptions and disrespectful judgements made about me!

I didn't have sex with my husband to compete with the OW. I had sex with my husband because we had issues - big issues - with sex our entire marriage, and because sex is a way that my husband connects emotionally. So I was able to demonstrate that I could relax, let go, and really get into it and enjoy it. I showed him that I found HIM sexually attractive.

Do you want to know the harsh reality of my situation?

The reality is that my husband spent 18 months with a woman who is 10 years older than me - far better looking, a better body, far better educated AND far better with sex.

It's true. I don't think I'll ever be able to compete with the OW. Our sexual relationship is healing over the last 18 months and getting better all the time, but it still isn't what he had with her.

If trying to be better than the OW was what I was doing, I would have failed miserably and my self-esteem would be in the crapper.

Instead, I let go of expectations, I had sex because I wanted to, not because I was trying to achieve any particular outcome between he and I.

I did understand enough of about MB (having counseled with Steve Harley, and having been on these boards for ages, and read every single book multiple times) to know that if I had sex with my husband that it would keep him off balance with his OW. And THAT is just fine with me.

The thing about Plan A, is that it is different for different folks. I've seen Steve give completely opposite advice to people with seemingly similar situations - there is no one black and white answer here!!

My husband was encouraged to come home when he saw changes in me that meant maybe we had a chance to fixing things between us. As he said to me just this morning: "I was ready to move on with my life, and all of a sudden you became a wonderful life partner..."

Our sex life will never be able to compete with what he had with her. But then again, apples and oranges are difficult to compare. What we have between us is OURS. And we have room for communication and adaptation where there was none before.

You are making alot of general sweeping assumptions about the character of someone who sleeps with both his wife and his mistress. And you are making alot of assumptions about the validity, strength of my recovery, and my marriage without ever having met me or knowing my story.

18 months have passed since my husband begged me not to divorce him, and told me he'd do whatever it took to fix us. We've got a better relationship NOW than we ever had in the previous 10 years of marriage before his affair.

Having sex with him while he was with the OW was an important part of what happened to us. He wasn't cake eating, although it may have seemed that way to you. What he was doing was testing the waters to see if maybe there was a way or a reason to come back home. What it did was remind him of "us" and let him see that "us" was still a viable option.

But then again, I learned a long time ago that I can be morally superior, or I can be a human being. I can be right, or I can be married.

I chose to be married and happy.

Realize that who your husband is sleeping with, you are sleeping with too, and that persons other partners, you are sleeping with them too. I would not have sex. If you do, he has to wear protection, you have no idea what he has, what his OW has, the partners she has had, and etc. Remember the commercial of the girl in the movie theatre. They pick her out, and she has slept with the boy next to her. He slept with the girl in the 3rd row in the back, that person slept with someone else in the theatre and it continues.

No sex is the safest thing you can do. Also, you are just making it nicer for him, he has you & the other woman anytime he wants. If you two get in an argument, then he goes to her and vice versa.

I don't feel he is there for you, I feel he is using you. I was used, and it will never happen again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LurkingAbout:
<strong>why in the world would you want to compete with the ow??????? Bullpucky, he wants her, let her have him, I will find someone who isn't into harem shopping. ....</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is someone' thread but I won't budge down to hypocritical ones ...

The first approach that I often recommend is to compete with the lover. Even as she is seeing the man, try to meet her needs, financially and emotionally. That approach has the advantage of proving that you care more about your wife than her lover does. Since you have more to lose than the lover (your family unit and present way of life), you can usually outlast the lover. He eventually finds someone else with less baggage this is from Harley Sr. This is plan A all about, the "negotiating" is actually "competing" w/ OP to be a better choice. If you can understand this, you should stay lurking <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> . Actually, I was furious like you when a poster (WS) post to me about this when I start learn about MB.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Redhat, you (I think) are male, it seems males are more likely to treat sex as a thing, independent of the woman providing it...I think the idea that (some)males "need" sex as a connetion is true, they will stay with someone who gives them better sex, I just don't think that males who feel that way make good mates. I prefer a man who is interested in a relationship, and enjoys sex with me because of the relationship...not needs sex to feel connected to me. Your advice "feels" very male oriented, that does not mean it is the best advice for a woman.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agreed with you for most man or a dog ... or philanderer ... but it is not me. <=== <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> =====> Last I know I was accused not macho enough by Relate. You know, if it is only for sex ... for male, we could hire a date cheaper than having a wife and have wide varieties of choices and flavors <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> . Rememeber we are here to share our experiences and give out our 2¢ ... I am not offended in anyway if my post is ignored but I am offended if I am judged by ignorant. Before you are judging me ... please at least read my profile and most of my posts.

-rh-

<small>[ December 28, 2002, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: redhat ]</small>

Thank you all for your posts.

Firstly, I would like to assure people that I am an adult and am aware of std's and pregnancy. I would not do anything to jepordise my health.

By having sex with my h, I am not trying to compete with the ow b/c in my own mind, I do not want to think about them. What I am trying to do, is to demonstrate to my h and to me that I am taken the time to think about our R and to work on my self and have decided to put into pratice eliminating the areas in our M that were not working. Of these areas, sf was a major one. For years, I had not been very interested and saw it as a chore. I have now looked at myself, read a lot and descovered what I have been missing. All I am trying to do is to show with actions that I realise that was a bad area for both of us - not just him - and do something about it. There are other areas that were not working and I am doing my best to sort them out.

To my mind, plan A is all about establishing the areas that were not working and doing something about them, assuming of course that you want your M to work and your ws to come home. If sf is a bad area, then surely you need to engage in it if possible to do an effective plan A. This area cannot be forced and it takes two to work on it so it must be a good sign if a ws is prepared to enage, assuming, it is not just engaged in for pure gratification - which it is not in my case.

I realise that sf cannot continue indefinatly unless my h comes home under nc terms, my issue is when and how to stop. My h thought when sf started that I was doing it b/c I had to and that I didnt want to. I think he is starting to realise that I angage b/c I want to and b/c I enjoy the act and the intimacy it brings us both.

I know that I need to start thinking about bringing in boundaries and this will have consequences with sf. At the moment all my actions (sf or other areas) are ubdertaked according to his whims, I need to strat bringing in my own controils more.

I have arranged a counselling session with steve H on Friday and will post what SH has to say on the subject in my situation.

I look forward to hearing more from you all. I am amazed and pleased by the amount of posts I have received.

lh