I was just watching the British version of Temptation Island on the Life network. One of the "temptresses" was quoted at the end as saying, "If he wants to do something, then I'm all for it." It reminded me of my (FORMER)horrible, selfish, personal philosophy. Allow me to explain....

The first time I fooled around with someone other than my H was four or 5 years ago, when a mutual friend was drunk at a birthday outing, and he grabbed me and planted a quick one on me. That same night, another girl did the same thing to my H. Pretty quick, harmless kisses, we thought at the time. My H confessed to me first, then I confessed too. Then a few months later, that same male friend put the moves on me again, and kissed me again, so I "went along with it" and we kissed for quite some time that 2nd time. I confessed this to my H the next day too. It didn't happen again.

BUT...this brings me to my (FORMER) sick little selfish personal philosophy. I somehow along the way decided it was okay for me to kiss (fool around with) someone else as long as they initiated it.

A couple years later, a coworker tried to kiss me on the way to our cars after some TGIF beers. I pushed him away and wanted none of it. A couple weeks later, a bunch of us were out again, and I was a bit more drunk, and he tried again and I gave in. (My former sick little philosophy rides again.) I fooled around with this one several more times on different occasions, some sober and some drunk. Not something I'm proud of. I ended it though eventually. I only ever told my H about one of the kissing events with this guy.

Then roughly another couple years later I changed jobs and ended up working with my H's BF. After several months of working together, and spending lots of social time together too (albeit with my H and many other friends, including those female colleague friends of his), one thing leads to another, and at the end of a drunken night out, he puts the moves on me, and after some reluctance, I actually have sex with this one. Still, my nasty little philosophy at work. He made the first move, so....

I never would've initiated any of these As (I am fairly certain of that). I couldn't do that. It didn't fit with my view of myself as a good person. But for some sick, selfish, immoral reason I had it in my head that it was okay if they started it and I went along.

Way back when, instead of being upset by my encounter with the first man, my H claimed to be turned on by it, and just made light of it. He continued to be friends with that man. (Oddly enough, after my most recent A, he decided to never talk to not only his BF, but this first OM as well.) I sometimes wonder if my H's reaction (or lack thereof) further encouraged my sick philosophy of "if he starts it, it's not so bad."

So what's the point of my post? Twofold: 1) to let BSs know what one foggy WS used to think like; 2)to confess what was going on inside my sick little head hoping that someone will have a clue why I thought that way, to see if it relates to my ENs somehow, or if there's anything remarkable about it that may affect any attempts on my part to recover my M.

So, please be gentle, but helpful if you can with your take on my FORMER sick little philosophy.

Jen

Jen - I see a lot of my wife's thinking in your words. She also tried to minimize things by claiming that OM was the aggressor, but she also knows that she didn't have to go along with it. Like you, she thought about a "wrong" behavior in a different way until it became for her an "OK" behavior.

The ability of the WS to rationalize and comparmentalize things while in the midst of an affair is amazing to me. I don't understand it, probably because I know I wouldn't be any good at it. In my wife's case, that was a behavior she relied on in her youth to deal with her messed-up family. I never had to do that, so that's probably why it seems so foreign to me. I'm not familiar with your earlier issues, but can you trace the rationalizing back to some childhood circumstances? Processing that stuff has really helped my wife identify her patterns and will certainly help her in the future.

It's obvious you're seeing things much more clearly now. I'm sure it's difficult for you to look back at the events surrounding your affair and try to come to grips with what you were thinking at the time. Thankfully, you've learned some valuable things about yourself that will help you down the road, like wrong is still wrong, no matter how you spin things in your head.

You're doing well to figure yourself out, way ahead of where your H needs to be right now. Hope he wakes up soon and starts to work with you, not against you.

<small>[ February 04, 2003, 11:06 PM: Message edited by: shattered in SF ]</small>

What you wrotte shows how important it is for people to have a strict set of rules that govern their conduct (boundaries) for without them, they start walking across a slippery slope that (as you found out yourself) will lead them downward towards grief and misery.

You have the choice of saying no ...
You have the choice of staying out of that kind of situation ...

Regardless how it started, you finished it without you panty on <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> . Unless you are raped you are part of the action.

I agreed with shattered in SF and CM.

Listen Jen, people made mistake and deep down they know it. It is survival instinct that kicks in to sugar coat or even twist the fact to make it acceptable to their soul. We call it in the fog, kindda defense mechanism. The most important is that what you have learned from it and how to guard from it next time. If you repented and asked forgiveness from HIM who are we to judge you ?. -rh-

Jen hi,

This thread seems to shed new light on your situation. The question is not "Why BS won't let me back" but rather "Why did I get married at all"

There are many people on these boards that seem to have approached marriage as though it was just part of growing up. You don't see many who took the time to find out who they were and what they wanted in life before going looking for someone to share it with.

Early on, on d-day and shortly after, I went on and on about how it was all OM's fault, that he started it. It took me a couple of months at least to see that the fault was 50/50. We both consented to have sex outside marriage, regardless of who made what moves first. Heck, for months after that I still carried a lot of anger and resentment towards OM, thinking that if he hadn't made those moves, my life wouldn't be in this mess. But now I almost feel sorry for him, for crossing paths with a repeat offender with weak boundaries like me.

can you trace the rationalizing back to some childhood circumstances?

Well, I've thought about that one before. I did spend a large part of my childhood in the role of counselor to my mother. She would talk to me about a lot of things that were causing her upset that really should have been a topic of conversation between her and my dad. I wasn't able to just be a kid who looked after herself, I looked after mom, emotionally speaking. So some would say I had a sense of entitlement to have fun at whatever cost. It took me years to stop taking everything my mom told me to heart, and just minimize it and perhaps to use your word, compartmentalize it. Eventually, as an adult I came to adopt the philosophy of "If you can't do anything about it, why waste time worrying about it?" I couldn't "fix" my mom, make her better, force her to heal emotionally. That was up to her. It took me until I was an adult to figure that one out though. I spent years trying to counsel her, not to much avail. So MAYBE that stuff with my mom KIND OF relates to my skill at compartmentalizing things.

Thankfully, you've learned some valuable things about yourself that will help you down the road, like wrong is still wrong, no matter how you spin things in your head. Indeed indeed, nicely put. I swear, I would like to use that phrase on my H, who is convinced it's fine for a married man to have females as his close companions. (He's in a bit of a pity-party type fog of his own.)

CoffeeMan - Yup, boundaries, the big thing I was lacking, as my counselor told me. I just bought that Cloud and Townsend book on boundaries so I can learn more. (BTW - why are you no longer TMCM? Did you cut back on the coffee? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

rh - I have made it clear to my H over and over again, that (as you say) I had the choice to say no and walk away, and that I didn't, and that I accept full repsonsibility for my actions, and how sorry I am. Indeed, I've asked Him for forgiveness, but it's so hard to allow myself to forgive myself, especially when my H can't forgive me. I appreciate your comment about "who are we to judge you" though, thanks.

olderandwiser - Perhaps my H and I did get married too young. We did date for 5.5 years before we got married at 22/23. But I do wonder sometimes that we got married before we both really knew all we needed to know about ourselves. However, I wouldn't trade the happy years we spent together for anything in the world.

Rationalizing and compartmentalizing (the fog), boundaries and the importance of setting them, and being able to examine one's self - three things I've gotten to reflect on again. Worthwhile stuff, thanks folks.

Jen

While BS's do want to blame the OP, they are only half to blame.
I remember when we talked to the H of OW in my H's A.
HER H told me that mine was a predator! Preying on women. He didn't seem to look at his WS as having anything to do with the decision. Perhaps later he did, but who knows?
Now, she was 60 yrs old, and it started on the internet between them as old high school friends who found each other again.
When they finally met, they both had to fly from their respective states to another state to meeet.
Does this sound like my H held a gun to her head? Too bad her H can't see who she really is. And for most of their emails, she was the one making sexual innuendos. My H really never did or comment back on them.
She initiated phone calls to my H at work because he was not allowed to make long distance calls out. He worked for the Gov.
So who is the predator here?
They both went along with it and it wasn't due to being in person for months.It was a EA until they met 4 months into it. Then they met a second time 7 weeks later. Flying across country for him, for her only a couple of states. But she made that decision herself!
Let's not forget, both parties are equally guilty! And both parties in any A make a choice.
I say when it comes down to judgment day, both will be judged equally!
No one should defend their spouse as being led astray. It was a mutual choice.
Thanks for listening. LouLou

perhaps Jen just perhaps...this is nothing more than you are growing and realizing the true meaning and value of you and your soul...as well as others...
quite a noble journay...and one on which many stumble...
but when we learn from the past...and go on to neve go back "there" again...the value of the lesson is way more important than what facts got us to that point
be good to yourself Jen

Jen - thanks for the peek inside. Self critical insights from recovered WSs are very valuable to BSs trying to understand. Your self criticism indicates a very healthy self assurance on your part, IMHO. Your willingness to share your personal discoveries speaks volumes to me about your character.

Thanks,
WAT

Yes Jen,thanks for your candour. As a FWW who had an EA,I often post thoughts on here with the knowledge that they could get ripped apart...but it's my ongoing need to sort out what happened that drives me to do it.

I have moments of blaming the OM for this,too. HE was the one who pushed me to declare my love for him...a big step mentally and emotionally for me. I can honestly say he did push me to verbalize it...I think I was thinking if I didn't say it out loud or write it down,I could go on pretending we were just innocent friends.

Yes,he pushed me to do that. But the blame for the whole thing cannot be placed on his shoulders. I hopped aboard the train quite willingly. Yep,a train that was headed for a major,catastrophic wreck. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Loulou - Oh my indeed that story really proves how 50/50 it really is. 'Tis very rediculous how the OW's H thought your H was a "predator". Thanks for sharing that story.

Sincere1 - It's nice to hear from someone who's been down a similar road. The odd thing in my A about "ILY" is that OM said it to me, and my response was one of shock, and I just told him that he was being wierd. I never said it to him. Hearing him tell my ILY was a bit of a wake up call to how what we were doing was so wrong. Yup, I willingly got on that train that was destined to crash too, even if he invited me aboard.

Jen

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">(BTW - why are you no longer TMCM? Did you cut back on the coffee? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope, I was fooling around (no not that kind) with changing my user name and somehow TMCM became stranded in an unreachable limbo. I'm still as highly caffeinated as ever (well until I no longer work the graveyard shift). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />