THIS STARTED OUT BEING A THREAD ABOUT PLAN B -- BUT IT CHANGED COURSE...BACK TO PLAN A? I'M NOT SURE.

Please see earlier thread (MY H HAS MOVED IN W/OW) for background.

As I said, my husband is an "out of sight, out of mind" person. I can't imagine this having any effect on him at all. I don't think NC will work in this case to move him. But it will help me to move on.

My beloved HUSBAND,

I apologize to you for whatever I have done to help make your affair with X possible. I am keenly aware of my shortcomings, and how both our shortcomings intertwined to weaken our marriage.

I am willing to avoid any mistakes I have made in the past and am willing to create a new life for both of us that will better meet your needs; I thought I was beginning to do so when you left. But I cannot continue that effort that until you end your relationship with X once and for all.

I am poignantly aware that this suggestion will be falling on deaf ears; it is difficult to speak to someone who is enraptured in a new affair. I cannot imagine this email hitting you in any way that will trigger any emotional response, except perhaps one of distaste. However, I remember other feelings. In January, your vision of our future together was so persuasive and magnetic – even while I was enraged, stunned, and suffering with one of the biggest blows of my life – that it continues to sustain me to this day. I remember the look on your face when we were getting married, the look on your face as you were leaving our home, so many other looks I have loved -- it is to those feelings that I speak. They are being suppressed and discouraged for now, but there is a chance they will re-emerge someday.

Until then, I will avoid seeing you, talking to you, or writing to you. Our friend Y has kindly agreed (if you agree) to mediate on the inevitable practical matters that will arise. Our marriage was not about rent, phone bills, or money; I do not wish our relationship to devolve to that now. I am not feeling negative at all; I am simply trying to strike a new note.

As soon as you separate permanently from X, I will be willing to meet with you again, whenever you wish. I hope you will wish to return to the home we built together, to our family, the cats, and NAME OF DOG, who so much misses you!

I want us to be able to rebuild our marriage some day – however far-fetched that might seem right now, however undesirable that appears to your current feelings. I want us to be able to meet each other’s emotional needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other, ever again. Then there will never again be a reason for us to separate. As you know, I don’t believe in disposable marriages; I believe they are an opportunity to make ongoing effort, a joyful kind of effort. As your wife, I decided years ago to make those efforts with you; I apologize for my failures. But in many ways I think we were a good team. I look forward to a better future, and I hope it is with you. Please remember this in the weeks to come.

I loved you when we married and I continue to love you right up to this day.

With all my love,
ME

<small>[ March 30, 2003, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]</small>

I'm having second thoughts already. My friend saw them in a restaurant yesterday, and he thinks he's going to lose his bet and I'll get the string of pearls. He said it looked rather solid.

My instinct tells me I need to Plan A more. Even though we have very few opportunities. He's nearly 100 percent into this other thing. He will have to bail out if he's going to bail out, but I think he needs to see an open door on my side. He'll need a fallback plan. Otherwise, knowing his history, he'll just proceed into yet another relationship from the failed one. Knowing him, he won't return. He never has.

I'm just very unsure Plan B is the right thing to do, even though what we've got already is pretty much Plan B anyway. He could serve me divorce papers any day.

AM,
I think it reads well. You are clear that your position is that you don't want contact with him unless the affair is ended. You've got a go between for practical matters, so your actions seem organized and not hasty. You express your love.

I don't see anything to change. See what the others think.

Oh, you've added another post <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

Hmmm. Ok. Now, remember I had 7 separations, so that means 6 of them failed...hopefully I have lessons learned, at least about my H.

Be careful about being the fallback. I think at this point for reconciliation, since he has already waffled on you once and his history with his other marriages isn't so great, I caution you about taking him back straight from her house. He should end the affair, and even if he doesn't come immediately back to your house...the affair should stay ended. Ideally, he should figure out what causes him to have this pattern.

You can't make him do that, of course.

But I do think it is helpful, when the A has been ongoing after Discovery and an attempt at Recovery and separation has occured, that some of the rebuilding takes place before moving back in.

I understand you may want to take you chances at taking him back without safeguards, knowing he is a conflict avoider and...certainly I did that several times. I believed it could have worked, it's just that, it didn't work, and my H kept contact with the OW and the affair restarted each time.

There's no question of him coming back for now, probably ever. He has no thoughts going in this direction at all, from what I can tell from this distance. Our friends, community, seem to have more or less accepted the new arrangements. I'm being seen as the rejected woman who can't let go, which is painful.

As I said in the letter, I can't believe he's completely lost all the feelings that he had two months ago. They're in there somewhere. Maybe finding some way of supporting those, with the minimal contact we have, so that the river continues to flow, even if it's just a trickle. So there is the possibility of a psychological fallback position -- not that he'd move back in, but more that he'd have an alternative in his mind.

But really, this may not be best for me. Maybe I need to move on. I'm just less sure than I was 24 hours ago. I don't know what to think.

I'm trying to work from my knowledge of this particular man -- but I really need to stop thinking about him. That was the point of Plan B, but a friend read my letter and said he would see my NC position as "extreme." I don't think it will affect him emotionally at all. He was prepared for NC when he moved out.

<small>[ March 28, 2003, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]</small>

Just told a friend that I think H and OW will be a fine couple, and that if he couldn't love me, I am glad he could love someone else.

Has anyone else tried this? Why not just PROMOTE the new couple, as a way of moving things forward? Let the resistance come from them. Push it forward.

Probably a bananas idea. And maybe I'm going bananas at this point.

ust told a friend that I think H and OW will be a fine couple, and that if he couldn't love me, I am glad he could love someone else.
Has anyone else tried this?
Do you want them to be a fine couple.? Are you really glad he can’ “could love someone else?”

Don‘t do/say stuff unless it is what you mean. And don’t pretend you are “happy” he found love, either.

<small>[ March 28, 2003, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]</small>

At this point, do I really have any choice? He's made it clear that he's going to do what he's going to do. I can be glad about it, or miserable about it. But resistance seems futile. Might as well help it roll forward and see what happens. Maybe it's best to be on his side, rather than opposing him. Let him start to oppose himself.

Again, this could be bananas thinking.

There's a fine balance between heaping coals and enabling. But I'm not sure if you're even close. Maybe you are.

I could see a situation where you are friends with WH and driving OW crazy with jealously leading to LBs and whatnot.

But rather than promote the couple, a more sensible approach may be to show that you are able to be on your own. So don't be "happy" or "miserable". There are more than two options.

A community seeing you as a "rejected woman"? Now THAT'S bananas thinking.

Good grief, anyone who thinks that is such a moronic loser who the heck cares what they think? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> .

Your husband is a betrayer, an adulterer...he & the OW do not hold the high ground. And there is a difference between acceptance and cowards who won't say anything...or don't recognize bad behavior.

Hold up your head, you've done nothing wrong.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by A.M.Martin:
<strong>At this point, do I really have any choice? He's made it clear that he's going to do what he's going to do. I can be glad about it, or miserable about it. But resistance seems futile. Might as well help it roll forward and see what happens. Maybe it's best to be on his side, rather than opposing him. Let him start to oppose himself.

Again, this could be bananas thinking.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are typical BW under control of philanderer WH. They are soo charming, they are so contorlling emotionally, they suck you into their fog. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> . What Chris is asking for you is to have emotional integrity. Be Honest with what you really want not what your WH would do !. Talking about codependency ... check enabling link under my signature, even it has a codependcy info within the website.

-rh-

Well, maybe I just blew it. Got home from shopping and H rang me about some arrangements. A few minutes earlier and I would not have been home.

Relatively long conversation. I asked him if he was happy. He said relatively, but he hadn't had time to feel happy yet with all the changes (this is the kind of thing he normally says). I asked him if he were happier than he had been here. He said pretty much. I asked him if I could talk to the parts of him that were around two months ago. He said yes, but those parts of him didn't have the strength to change the course of events. I told him I loved him and missed him, and that I was not expecting to feel that way. And that I still felt we were supposed to be together. He said he considered it a long-shot that we would ever be together again. But one never knew (he said). He'd seen stranger things.

All this ambiguity is still very typical of him.

He wants to get a mediator to discuss some financial issues. I didn't tell him I'm going to have a third party handle that.

Whole thing, on the whole, depressing. But since we hadn't had a substantive conversation for a month, really, I guess it was important. It gave me a chance to say some things that needed saying, perhaps.

I really don't know what I'm doing. Did I do wrong? Well...probably...

It sounds ok. Not lovebusting, giving him an opening, should he have wanted one.

In any case, the conversation is a done deal and unchangeable and don't worry about it.

What do you think you'll do now?

Not sure, not sure. I feel very confused. Play for time, I suppose.

I live in a rural area -- shopping for groceries today made me see if any divorce occurs, or even a long separation, I will have to go to a major city and get a normal job. Hard to do after years off the job market. That will conclude things once and for all between us.

This new thing won't last -- but how long will it last?

Is it wise to keep to a very limited Plan A I have now? Friendly and warm when I speak to him, maybe once or twice a week, briefly -- keep the door open.

I really think with Plan B he will never come back. Maybe it's the best chance for most WS, but I don't think with him. When the A is finished, he will just move on with someone else.

EVERYTHING IN MY GUT TELLS ME PLAN B WON'T BE AFFECTIVE WITH THIS PARTICULAR GUY!

<small>[ March 28, 2003, 06:38 PM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]</small>

AM Martin,

I would wish him happiness. That is what we want for those we love. I did. Told him even if it made son and I miserable for the rest of our lives, his happiness was important. In addition to that I also wished the OW would meet all his needs. That allowed me to lead into plan B and it's requirements. I ended it by restating it was a loving move on my part and if he loved us, he would go do it because staying with us and disrespecting us with his presence was not to be tolerated.

Oooh that confusing presentation did a # on him!!!

Now I meant it. So it is important you say what you mean and mean what you say. How you present it takes finese.

L.

Orchid et al.,

I'm really becoming convinced that for this man, the best thing to do is continue Plan A, and have very limited contact -- phone once or twice a week, maybe a word or two when we run into each other in public. I feel like I really need to keep the channels open, but I need to protect myself from his cruelty and insensitivity at the same time.

From my knowledge of him, when the A goes bust, he's going to want a receptive, uncritical woman. If it's not me, it's going to be yet another woman. So it might as well be me. I might as well be the one who's there for him. Enabling? Maybe. But I think the alternative is to cut him off forever.

He'll have to go through a sea-change between now and then -- real suffering and real remorse. He hasn't had that yet, not much of it in his life, really, and it will change him. Then I can see if a reconciliation is even possible. I couldn't take back the man I've had for the last half-year. He would have to sort himself out. I don't know yet if he can do that. He ran from me because that's what he was facing. Presenting him with it now will only scare him off more.

The best thing might be to be his friend -- but I'm just not sure I have the stomach for that. That seems suicidal.

He's wandering blindly into something -- I've even heard the woman is lesbian, as well as emotionally weird. Neither of them have any idea what they're getting into.

Plan B will help me move on -- but it will help him move on, too. And it will guarantee he'll turn to someone else when this goes crash...if it goes crash... hell, maybe he'll be happy with her, though the odds seem slim.

Again, it might not be true for most men, but I think it is for THIS man.

AM,

I did what you said and I had to live through at least 6 false recoveries. All very painful. One of those landed the Ws in jail, then he went to live with the OW for about 10 days (he says less, I say no). I had 2 miscarriages and the OW claimed prego 3xs. Boy was he busy or what. Reality of it is that the OW was phony in her threats. Mine was documented.

Point is that I tool back a shell of a man without defining my boundaries enough. I did acknowledge them but was quite weak emotionally. Posting here helped but for some reason I was not getting it when seasoned MBers said to let him go. Even the counselor said that and I just didn't listen. That was my fault.

Make sure (as much as possible) that you are willing to settle for less than you should.

JMHO,
L.

Orchid, I don't see this guy coming back at all. He's never returned to a woman, he just staggers on to the next thing. He hasn't been with many women, and so doesn't recognize some of the snakes in the grass. Incredibly obtuse. Incredibly naive. Incredibly immature.

Continuing Plan A I just see as a way to keep my options open, in case an atom bomb lands on his head and teaches him something. It's not terribly likely. I figure there's no harm in being sweet and open -- especially since he's not going to take me up on anything. Am I wrong?

But I am wary of my own thinking. It seems unnecessary to establish boundaries since I hardly ever see the guy. Why tell him he has to break off the A since those were the last words I told him as he moved out? He has no intention of doing so, and it's falling on deaf ears for now. Shouldn't I wait for a crack of sunlight through the fog before raising the subject again?

He sees the path back not only as undesirable, but impossible. He's afraid of feeling anything except what he feels for OW. I feel I have to reduce his feeling of being threatened.

I feel I do have to wait for some LBs on the other side before rapprochement of any kind.

And again, all I feel I'm doing is keeping the option open. I don't know if it would be good for me to take it, I don't know I'll be available to him when he's ready to take it. He hasn't been good for me.

I'm very pessimistic about all this. Very pessimistic about our future.

Argue with me, please, if you think I'm wrong-headed on this. He seems determined to be faithful to OW (!!!) and push me out right now.

PS -- What does "JMHO" mean?

JMHO (just my honest opinion).

You do what is best for you and your sitch. For me it became necessary to push the WS to the OW and get them both out of my life. The pain had become too great and the OW would use me as her personal vent bag when she was mad at the WS. I no longer wanted to be mixed up with their mix up.

I held it together for almost 2 years. He would come back then pull out again. It got very tiresome.

L.