snl,<P>One thing I've noticed on this site is that you catch alot of crap for your views, but whenever a BS wants a WS's opinion, they call on you. Interesting!<P>Also, where are you from? I've always wondered because of the way you spell "behaviour", with a "u". Just curious.<P>You suggested in another thread something about discreetly leaving some Harley books laying around. I've often though about doing that with "SAA", but isn't that manipulative?<BR>As you know, my W hasn't admitted her A, so wouldn't doing that be a big LB (basically saying she's lying, even though she is)?<P>Also, last week I told you about a conversation my W and I had a few weeks ago where I LB'ed big time. You advised me to write her a short note to apologize. I just did and here's what I wrote:<P>"Something's been bothering me since we talked a few weeks ago. I said some things I regret. I have no intention of filing for divorce, nor do I intend to use anything I know to hurt you or humiliate you. You've been hurt enough. I felt threatened and reacted poorly. I was controlling and manipulative and I don't want to be that way. I'm getting help with that, but I've got a ways to go". <P>Just want your opinion. Have a good night.<P>sad dad<P> <P>

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sorry been meeting my w need for domestic help all day. Fixed the central vacumn, got the kids to do their chores, installed the wall mount for TV, installed the cable outlet for the tv, fixed the dresser drawer, finished the ceiling fan install, cleaned up a few things here and there....is amazing how happy that kind of stuff makes her. But was not meeting my obsessive need to write write write.<P>Anyways I am from a little town 20 miles west of Detroit. Born and raised her, and if you got a problem with my spelling bud, well just come on over and we will straighten it out like real men.<P>sad...One thing I've noticed on this site is that you catch alot of crap for your views, but whenever a BS wants a WS's opinion, they call on you. Interesting!<P>snl...That is cause they have read sun tzus (?) the art of war, and know that studying the enemy is the key to victory. BS may be trusting and naive, but they are not stupid. I am quite surprised at the stuff my wife had figured out BEFORE discover, including hiring a PI....I didn't think she had it in her.<P>sad...You suggested in another thread something about discreetly leaving some Harley books laying around. I've often though about doing that with "SAA", but isn't that manipulative?<P>snl...Let's get this manipulative thing straight (maybe we need a thread just for this)....EVERYTHING is manipulative in some sense, unless done completely spontaneously, then we call such folks flakey..... IMO manipulative means a direct act (often insincere, like trying to make ws jealous), or deliberately running out of gas in the middle of nowhere and suggesting would be agood opportunity to talk, or promising to change something (knowing you really don't mean it) just to get ws away from op...etc. Subtlely encouraging a ws to read a book, by leaveing it somewhere where they can "choose" to read or not is just being proactive in my book. Also endless tears and woe is me, gets a little overdone eventually too.<P>sad...As you know, my W hasn't admitted her A, so wouldn't doing that be a big LB (basically saying she's lying, even though she is)?<P>snl...No, not IMO. Pretending you believe her is just plain silly. The LB comes from confrontation. Leaveing such a book is um....... suggestive, somewhere in the middleground. If asked, my response would be....Honey, I am not going to accuse you of anything, but I cannot help my suspicions, which arise out of my assessment of your behaviour, since you say you are not involved with anyone else, I am studying up on those who are, so I can see why I wrongly feel this way, and I want to be wrong. However, the book is also about marriage in general, and how to deal with the troubles all marriages have, it is pretty interesting, you might like it....for example (then give the biggy...the concept of LB).<P>sad..."Something's been bothering me since we talked a few weeks ago. I said some things I regret. I have no intention of filing for divorce, nor do I intend to use anything I know to hurt you or humiliate you. You've been hurt enough. I felt threatened and reacted poorly. I was controlling and manipulative and I don't want to be that way. I'm getting help with that, but I've got a ways to go". <P>snl...I would add, and I like myself a whole lot better now as well.... <P>I ask my wife all the time how she feels about the different behaviours she is doing, and whether she needs any surgury on her tounge. She says she kinda likes the new her...... hmmmmmmm.<P><p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited August 28, 2001).]

snl,<P>I didn't mean to question your spelling, I just though you may be from the UK or Australia. I'll meet you anytime you want, for a beer. Maybe we can head to Windsor for some entertainment.<P>I'm still not sure about the leaving SAA laying around. At this point, I doubt my W would read or even comment about it, but if she did I think she may find of the Harley's principles as manipulative. At first reading, I thought they were. I guess it depends on how willing she is to being honest with herself about her "friendship" with OM. Since I've never been a WS, I often wonder if they believe their own lies and can actually have themselves fooled. That might be the case early on in an EA, but once you tell the OP you're "in love with them" I guess that goes out the window. My W doesn't know everything I know, and she's done a pretty good job of "excusing" what she knows that I know.<BR>I guess what I'm saying is that if my W has done a good job of covering her tracks so far, could she really believe she has me fooled? Does she really think I'm that gulible?<P>sad dad

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The principles are manipulative, such is the nature of behavioural modification, and I hate it. I don't want to be drawn back by some kind of trickery. I fought with jennifer over 1/2 dozen counselling sessions re this stuff. But finally I had to admit, if one is of sound mind, and voluntarily participates in this stuff, it really isn't manipulation per se, is simply a search for truth...but I still don't like it. That is the nature of a ws (or humans in general) we want what we want, and we don't want anyone changing our minds....feels dangerous. One just has to assess the total picture, and realize the request to try these things with your current partner is not unreasonable, and is the ethical thing to do....... arrgggghh.<P>Yes the ws believes their own "lies" and that my friend was a disrespectful judgement, does not feel like lies to us, feels like truth. (btw when I seemingly complain like this, or the thingy about spelling I am just being "familiar", for some unknown reason, I kinda like you, you feel sincere, and I think you "get" it, and are doing the work rightly...now that is probably the kiss of death...... nah).<P>As for how gullible we think you are, that is presupposing we care what you think...mostly we don't. We have written off the marriage, and usually are kinda surprised when you seem not to realize that, or agree is over. Then the secrecy is about protecting ourself, our turf, not so much about getting over on you....so ya see? The BS often think in terms of them, that this is about you....it is not, it is about us, you are just in the way. Bummer huh?<P>

snl,<P>quote:<BR>"Yes the ws believes their own "lies" and that my friend was a disrespectful judgement, does not feel like lies to us, feels like truth."<P>I know it would be a disrespectful judgement to tell her this, and I didn't. Lies are lies. It's not a feeling. I lie is saying something contrary to the facts. If, and this is only an example, she says she doesn't talk to OM anymore, but she does, it's a lie. No grey area.<BR> <BR>quote:<BR>"As for how gullible we think you are, that is presupposing we care what you think...mostly we don't. We have written off the marriage, and usually are kinda surprised when you seem not to realize that, or agree is over. Then the secrecy is about protecting ourself, our turf, not so much about getting over on you....so ya see? The BS often think in terms of them, that this is about you....it is not, it is about us, you are just in the way. Bummer huh?"<P>If the marriage is over in the WS's eyes, and they don't care about what we think or feel, why the secrecy and/or waffling? Why not just leave the marriage and move on?<P>sad dad<P>

sad...If, and this is only an example, she says she doesn't talk to OM anymore, but she does, it's a lie. No grey area.<P>snl...no argument here, if she doesn't believe she is talking to om when she really is, she needs a psychiatrist.<P>quote:<BR>"As for how gullible we think you are, that is presupposing we care what you think...mostly we don't. We have written off the marriage, and usually are kinda surprised when you seem not to realize that, or agree is over. Then the secrecy is about protecting ourself, our turf, not so much about getting over on you....so ya see? The BS often think in terms of them, that this is about you....it is not, it is about us, you are just in the way. Bummer huh?"<P>sad....If the marriage is over in the WS's eyes, and they don't care about what we think or feel, why the secrecy and/or waffling? Why not just leave the marriage and move on?<P>snl...Emotional inertia, a certain amount of doubt, a genuine desire not to hurt spouse, or kids, or others, but not seeing any way to avoid it, so paralysis. Most ws would be much happier if the bs would just calmly leave, but you guys are sooooooooo annoying, you try to fix the marriage. The secrecy is no big deal, just major conflict avoidance with you. If the bs would say nothing and do nothing about A, would be no need for secrecy.<P>

snl,<P>As far as the lying, I'm not refering to thoughts, feelings, beliefs, you know, intangible stuff. I'm mean denying facts. <P>My W is a big time conflict avoider, that's why she never expressed her unhappiness until it had gotten so bad. Paralysis is a good description. Can't move one way or the other. Waiting for a push.<P>Sorry us BS's are so annoying and want to save our marriages. Selfish SOB's, aren't we?<P>Thanks,<BR>sad dad<P>P.S. All in all, how do you think I'm handling myself in this situation?<p>[This message has been edited by sad dad (edited August 29, 2001).]