NOVEL ALERT...
When I search for answers to my questions it seems the majority of examples come from younger never married couples.

The details�.
My GF and I are both divorced and both had spouses that cheated.
We have been dating nearly 5 years.
We each have children from our marriages.
We live in separate homes about 25 minutes apart.
We do spend weekends together in the summer but that is the only �living together� we do.
We met online and have a lot of shared interests that help us get along famously.
We also have our share of differences as well as scars from our past that have caused some disagreements.
We also have strong moral foundations for the most part but are by no means perfect.
Unfortunately over the years we have both lied to each other about things but as far as I know there hasn�t been any cheating but its always a fear of both of ours.
We have broken up a few times, once for a month but usually only for a few days, I�ll explain later.

When we first started dating there were a couple of things I mentioned as showstoppers in my profile. Believing in God and going to church was important, and not smoking were a couple of biggies. She had told me early on that she used to be a believer but her past made her question it and that she wanted to understand more and wasn�t opposed to going to church sometimes. Over the years she has gone with me during holidays but that�s about it. We�ve had some good discussions and others have resulted in arguments and in a couple instances she has commented that I need to pretty much forget about it because she is never going to believe in God. Other times she has said that she prayed. In my mind I know its not my job to bring her to faith but to plant the seed which I have done. Smoking has been another issue. She hid the fact that she smoked for the first three months. She had fallen in love with me and when she told she cried uncontrollably. I thought she was going to tell me she cheated. I was really disappointed but at the same time relieved it wasn�t cheating. She promised she was going to quit but is addicted and hasn�t been able to. Its become a problem because I really hate it so I mention it to her. Sometimes she says she understands other times she gets angry. She has tried and stopped for a couple of months this May and June. During that time we got along perfectly. Obviously I was disappointed when she started again. When we spend the weekends together is often at the lake where we have a lot of fun but also have drinks. In the past going to the lake was always a place she smoked so it was a big trigger. We both have our limits, obviously, but I�ve noticed that there are times when it seems like the combination of drinking and smoking makes her angrier and leads to some big fights. Over the years some of the fights it caused has led to the small breakups I mentioned, a couple of days or so. This hasn�t been the only cause for the breakups but it has become a major annoyance and a cause of current issues and led to the current break up.

So fast forward to today, day four with no contact and I�m trying to consider if I should consider ending it, if I�m being unreasonable, trying unfairly to change her, and what to do next. Seems shallow so I�ll add a little more color. Like me, she is a strong willed, selfish and stubborn woman. She admits to all of it and says its because of her past and the need for her to protect herself and be prepared to take care of herself and family at all times. While I understand to me this feels a bit like a �freeloader or renter� mentality, especially after nearly 5 years. Ok, back to the current issue. She said she was going to quit again so I had asked her last Monday to stop so that by the weekend she could be past the agitated state. I left it at that and it wasn�t brought up. We met at the lake Friday afternoon but something was off. I asked and she said she didn�t know what it was and we both agreed it must have been the weather since it wasn�t perfect, perhaps our expectations were let down. We hung out watched movies and went to bed. The next morning she woke up before me and when I did I could sense something and she said �I�m just not into being here this weekend.� I asked if she wanted to go home and she said yes. I asked if it was ok if I stayed. She said no she didn�t want me to. I was disappointed but showered and got ready to go. When I got done she said she was upset because she couldn�t smoke and resented me because of it. She had her bag packed and by the door. She said some other things but the fact was she was angry at me because in her mind I wouldn�t let her smoke because if she did, I wouldn�t just let it happen without making a comment. Probably true but it wouldn�t have been an ongoing issue. I told her I understood but that I wasn�t the problem. She told me to leave so I packed my car went back to get the dog and she followed me. I noticed she left her bag. She followed me in her car but turned toward the local store, I assume to get cigarettes. I was obviously hurt because she didn�t plan to go home like she said. Pretty fricking hurtful. A little while later I texted her asking why she would do that? Asked her if she ever considered a humble approach to admitting she didn�t try to stop and was sorry but needing to smoke. I told her that I would have been good with that approach and that I could tell she had smoked the day before but didn�t say anything. She responded by saying that I would have lectured and wouldn�t understand. I told her that her anger and blame at me was misplaced and that it should be on the smoking instead. Several hours later I texted her again out of frustration asking if she was on the water (passive aggressive) she responded with �going now.� Ouch, well I got what I asked for. I called her and she said she had to go because she had people waiting for her all day. I then asked her what people and she just said �people� which really upset me so I said �might as well clean out my stuff and return it� then I hung up instead of arguing. I texted her I had been waiting for her all day also and what she was doing was mean and wrong. She said that I left instead of understanding the hard time she was having and that I was being a baby. I had a choice and I made it. I reminded her that I had asked if I could stay, she said no and that she made it seem as if she was leaving. She said she was having a hard time being irrational and I should have know she was desperate and that is what being addicted does. I responded that being addicted doesn�t give her the right to be irrational, mean and lie.

She was home early the next morning and tried to call me at 6:30pm but I ignored it. She texted me at 8:30 saying she didn�t blame me and it was her fault. I have been patient for the last 4 years but she obviously cant kick the habit and has other things to work on also. She said she was sorry and didn�t� mean to hurt me. She asked that I forgive her someday and said she would return my stuff but didn�t have it in her to do it that day.

So here I am. I don�t know how to take that last text. Was she agreeing that it was over? She asked for forgiveness but also said she would return my stuff. In all of the breakups she has never ever chased me. I�ve always had to be the one that asks to get back together. That enforces my freeloader/renter feeling but by leaving I see myself in the same boat being a hypocrite.

How do I determine if I�m being immature, if there are irreconcilable differences, if this can work etc.

Hi IPD, welcome to Marriage Builders. I read about 3/4th of your post but that was all I needed to formulate an answer. Dating is a job interview for marriage. When the candidate flunks the interview, it is time to move onto the next candidate. If you are spending all of your time with the candidate - who has failed the interview - you are distracted from finding a more suitable candidate. The point of dating is not to CHANGE someone, but to find someone who does the next job of meeting your needs and offers the most promise for a compatible beginning. You are already facing the prospect of getting her to make major changes just to ensure she is an acceptable match. That is not the point of dating or recruiting. The point is to find the most suitable candidate.

Keep in mind that you don't help her by continuing with this relationship. She could also be dating other people who a) don't accept God and b) don't mind smoking.

thank you for your response Melodylane. I don't mean to be argumentative but I do question the response. In a job interview you pick the best candidate knowing that there is no such thing as a perfect fit. You even mentioned "the point is to find the most suitable candidate." I'm not quite sure that my GF has flunked or failed the interview. While I agree dating is not to change someone I do think that over time people can change habits that annoy the other. Annoying habits are lovebusters and Dr. Harley says those should be discussed and remedied.

That is news to me. I have been a hiring manager for 2 Fortune 500 companies since 1992 and I always select the most perfect fit. When someone fails the interview, I don't try to change them, I move onto the next candidate. You could be interviewing for more suitable candidates but instead you are busy trying to change someone against her will.

That standard is even more imperative when choosing a marriage partner. It is much easier to just fire someone than it is to get divorced, after all.


In MARRIAGE. You are not married. The goal of dating is not to change each other, but to find the most suitable candidate. Also, you have discussed the smoking and the God issue and they are not resolved.



Entire article Choosing the Right One to Marry

I would add that with many people, dishonesty, smoking, and not believing in God would be a deal breaker. If anyone ever lied to me in an interview, it would be an auto deal breaker. [and yes, I have had this happen where someone misrepresented their skill set or lied about their background]

Do you have any deal breakers?

That is news to me. I have been a hiring manager for 2 Fortune 500 companies since 1992 and I always select the most perfect fit. When someone fails the interview, I don't try to change them, I move onto the next candidate. You could be interviewing for more suitable candidates but instead you are busy trying to change someone against her will.

That standard is even more imperative when choosing a marriage partner. It is much easier to just fire someone than it is to get divorced, after all.


In MARRIAGE. You are not married. The goal of dating is not to change each other, but to find the most suitable candidate. Also, you have discussed the smoking and the God issue and they are not resolved.


So perhaps I should mention that I have "interviewed" a lot of candidates and thus far she is the "most" perfect fit. Not perfect but close.
Again I'm not saying she failed the interview, you are. Do you have enough information? I'm asking for help not arguments.

The first line on the page you sent me says that all of the basic concepts are applicable to non married couples. I haven't read all of the articles but will do so.

I believe its foolish to think that two people can be in a relationship with zero issues. Love is what you do not what you accept.

That's fine, you can accept or reject the advice. Best of luck..

Isn't that enough information right there?

I know you aren't married, but both have children from previous marriages. What are the ages of yours and her children?

Read this and listen to the radio clips. Blended Families

Mine are 21, 18, and 12
Hers are 18, and 16

The kids get along great and have never been an issue.

That sounds like a grueling weekend for both of you. I�ve been listening to the radio show daily I encourage you to try it it will help you reason through this stuff with a lot more peace of mind.

Thanks Neweveryday! It was tough. I do listen to the radio show but not daily.

That's really good to know. How would they have recommended that all go down this last weekend? The way they talk, I think it would have been more like curiosity, "I'm surprised you feel that way. I'd like to know more about that." and then go back to the weekend activities that were planned. I've heard Dr. H recommend folks that were having difficulty dating to take some time apart to see how strong the attachment really is, or maybe you would feel relieved. How matched are you two in the criteria in the article on the article after the one you were linked? How well would your kids say you are matched? My kids had a gut feeling that I wish I had listened to.

I agree and why i'm not ready to just say she's fired. I read the the articles but i'm not sure which criteria you are referring to but I think we are pretty well matched. Our kids seem to like the other. Mine like her and the only concern my eldest had was that she is more introverted than expected but other than that she really likes and respects her

Did you get a chance to listen to these?

Intelligence, social activity, values, energy, cultural background

Brainhurts, Yes I reviewed the articles. As I said the children are great and have not been a source of contention. Perhaps what you are wondering is if I got the repeated message of POJA? Ah ha!

Neweveryday, we are pretty much spot on with all of those criteria, the one exception that we have reached a partial agreement on being church.

Being well matched in those 4 areas isn't going to wash away the incompatibility issues you have in other areas. Not to mention that dishonesty and lack of POJA are issues that are going to lead to an unhappy marriage.

You have been living together (unmarried) part-time on weekend which it sounds like has led to renter mentalities for you both which leads to fighting and problems - this will be hard to fix all by itself.

Dr Harley would tell you this relationship has low chance of success and to keep dating.

Have you read this Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders