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BTinTrouble #3009013 07/29/19 12:42 PM
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Yes BT please start listening to the radio show every day starting today it will help you shift your mindset so that you’re encouraging your kids to grow and fostering thoughtfulness. And get that book HNHN for parents it has chapters on how to parent and how to be a partner.


Me 40, OD 18 and YD 13
Married 15 years, Divorced 10/2010
BTinTrouble #3009048 07/30/19 07:27 PM
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Listened to radio show today. Really awesome reminders. Had totally forgotten about the 3 states if mind in an intimate relationship. I should have been paying attention for signs of Conflict and taking them seriously, and recognized and been far more alarmed at Withdrawal.

Recovery is lifelong.

Thanks @NewEveryDay

Nice hearing from you again.


Lifelong recovery never ends.

BTinTrouble #3009129 08/02/19 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Happen to have a reference idea (link even?) to examples of plans to prevent the next crisis?



Averting or deescalating crises is an individualized approach. So, the plan has to be specific to the individual based on their behaviors.

What you have to do, is learn to choose your response to others, rather than reacting. Realize that when other people escalate, you may escalate as well. You need to recognize where you are, and if you are not able to CHOOSE your RESPONSE, rather than just REACTING, then you need to step aside.

Remember that behavior, including "tantrums," is what people use to get what they want, or to get away from what they don't want. If their behavior is successful in this, the behavior will repeat.

So, in your above example regarding your son, you tell us he was in the crisis phase (throwing a tantrum) but gave absolutely no indication as to why he was "throwing a tantrum."

To avert crisis, you need to know WHY HE WAS THROWING A TANTRUM. Was he hungry? Cold? Tired? Bored? Scared? His behavior PRIOR to the "tantrum" was looking for a particular need of his to be met, and when it went unmet, he escalated and went into full on crisis. You need to learn to evaluate what is going on with your child BEFORE they get to "tantrum." And if/when they get to tantrum? You do not place them in a dangerous restraint as you did. Your wife was right, you could have asphyxiated your son. When a person goes into full crisis mode - LEAVE THEM ALONE. I don't mean actually alone, alone - especially if they are at risk to seriously harm themselves or harm another - but do not try to force compliance or whatever you have in your head. Let them have their crisis.

After they begin to calm down, then ask them what happened, and LISTEN. Don't make suggestions, or place blame, or any of that noise. Listen to the person, and try to determine what the trigger for this crisis was. Unmet need? Annoying sister? What? In the future, be aware of those triggers, and learn to either remove that trigger, or remove the person from the trigger - but DO NOT FORCE it. Offer options to encourage them to deescalate.

Treat the person with dignity and respect, and respect their feelings about what happened. Yes, even a 5 year old.

In fact, dignity and respect are the basis of how you should approach ANYONE. Your children, your wife, your coworkers, your friends, the crazy drunk at the grocery store that hits you up for a buck.

People who are not treated with dignity and respect cannot feel safe with the person who doesn't grant that minimum amount of decency to them, and thus will be heightened in their crisis cycles while interacting.


Whew... that's a lot to digest. I typically get 16 hours to train people on this stuff in person. So, let's start small with the absolute baseline; treat people with dignity and respect.

So, think; is holding your son tightly while he struggles, until he soils himself, showing him dignity and respect?

Where else may you have failed in showing your wife or children dignity and respect?

Keep that in mind, and you will be better prepared to meet your wife's Emotional Needs, and will also avoid the major Love Buster that comes along with disrespect. Also, remember that being disrespectful does not have to be directed at your wife for it to Love Bust her.

Chin up! Carry on!


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
BTinTrouble #3009138 08/02/19 11:39 AM
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Thank you HHH!

If you already have this typed out somewhere you can link to, don't think you have to retype it just for me. I can read it. Thank you so much for this. Bookmarked.


Lifelong recovery never ends.

BTinTrouble #3009141 08/02/19 11:53 AM
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I typed it all off hand.

Particularly because I had to adapt it from what I teach; healthy relationships with individuals served in a care setting, and between coworkers in said setting - to a more family-centered approach. That being said, the training is offered to families as well, but in the setting I serve I teach facility staff.

I realized the compatibility when conflict resolution is addressed; it emphasizes the same win-win model taught by Marriage Builders - and I use date night as an example, as well as dropping a mention for He Wins, She Wins. smile


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
BTinTrouble #3009143 08/02/19 12:15 PM
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BT, I'll also share with you an adapted quote - a mantra for you to use in your day-to-day approach. I am adapting it to reflect your role as husband and father. The original context is for teachers;

“I’ve come to a frightening conclusion that I am the decisive element in my home. It’s my personal approach that creates the climate. It’s my daily mood that makes the weather. As a spouse/parent, I possess a tremendous power to make my family's life miserable or joyous. I can be a tool of torture or an instrument of inspiration. I can humiliate or heal. In all situations, it is my response that decides whether a crisis will be escalated or de-escalated and my family humanized or dehumanized.” - Haim Ginot


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
BTinTrouble #3009415 08/13/19 12:39 AM
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HHH, your quote has been inspiring. Been getting 2-3 days of the MB radio show last week and this week. It has been great to be reminded of things I read a while ago, forgot, and haven't been doing. I have been going through the Dating Your Spouse series and also read the Groping and Grabbing in Marriage and a couple related articles. I don't know if the articles were available when I was last active here, but they are incredible. Humbling and made me feel like a real jerk, but incredible in helping me recognize some Love Buster's I have been engaging in.

Kids started school this week, so 3 of the 4 will be gone all day. I have been getting up for work about 5am and able to be home earlier. Since I don't play any games anymore, this has meant a lot more time to be with MrsBT and focus on affection, admiration and intimate conversation. We have gone out together with friends where she has engaged in drinking, and some of the SF on those nights has definitely surpassed anything from the last 3-5 years or so and that has been nice. I haven't really drank at all for a long time.

By my guesstimate, we are (kind of) doing 20 hours of UA. I say kind of because MrsBT will check her phone periodically or do things around the house where we aren't really doing it 'together,' just both doing something around the same time. Therefore, actual UA time is probably more like 10-15 hrs.

MrsBT has said that she wants to get serious about MB once the kids start school. I think I will print off the needs questionnaires and similar things so we can work through it all. Between MB radio and reading, verse (and chapter) of the Bible, prayer every day; church and Bible study every week; a couple books I am reading and my day job, I am really busy. Any time I have time that I am available for MrsBT, that's what I am doing, and those other activities otherwise.

I am feeling frustrated because MrsBT will be working on dinner or kids snacks for school or cleaning the house when I get hone from work, and she will give me a quick hug and a kiss as if it's a check in the box. I will be available for her and listen to her. We will talk about going for a walk, reading something together, planning SF or something for that night. However, once kids go to sleep, we might talk a bit, shower, and as soon as she lays down, she is falling asleep. While awake, it seems as though texts on her phone, Facebook messages, the plans for the day, are all more important than giving me her undivided attention.

I don't know what else I can do. I get up at 5am to work, and when I get home, I help her with whatever I can. Dinner, laundry, the kids, whatever. Now she is asleep next to me, I will go to bed in about 20 mins, but she will be asleep (again) for 'our' nightly prayer.

I get that she is tired. I am glad she is resting. It is just apparent to me that all of the things getting her energy and attention besides me are the priority. I am happy that she is serious about getting back into MB together, reviewing what UA actually is. I resent being told that we will do something (SF, a conversation, cuddling, a walk, w,e) and she will pass out as soon as we get near a bed. I am hoping getting back into MB will help resolve this resentment. Otherwise, I guess we will need to relearn POJA, how to negotiate, and what Independent Behaviors are.


Lifelong recovery never ends.

BTinTrouble #3009425 08/13/19 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
I resent being told that we will do something (SF, a conversation, cuddling, a walk, w,e) and she will pass out as soon as we get near a bed. I am hoping getting back into MB will help resolve this resentment. Otherwise, I guess we will need to relearn POJA, how to negotiate, and what Independent Behaviors are.


That she passes out is likely an indicator she's exhausted moreso than she's trying to avoid her "duties" of UA. Or, specifically in the case of SF, it could be there wasn't an effective emotional connection before the time for SF came along.

Can you think of ideas on how your evening could be rearranged so she still has the energy and enthusiasm for your connections when the time becomes available to start making them?

Last edited by Sunnytimes; 08/13/19 01:17 PM.
BTinTrouble #3009449 08/14/19 11:05 PM
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I didn't say she was trying to avoid anything, and I don't really know why you put quotes on 'duties.' I didn't say duties.

MB Fact: 15 hrs of UA to maintain a romantic connection.

Fact: MrsBT expresses a desire to get back on MB.

It's not a duty, it's a commitment. A commitment to put caring for your marriage over everything else (except God).

I don't feel that care. I am hurt by independent behavior and dishonesty, which, combined with neglect of meeting my needs, is taking a toll on my love bank.

I am still pressing on. I am still 100% responsible for my part. If I find something I can do to lift a burden, I do it. I ask if there is anything I can do. I am reviewing HNHN, specifically intimate conversation chapter. At the end of the day, I will need time to have an intimate conversation. Not having a commitment to UA time is going to make that difficult, but I will do my best with what I get.


Lifelong recovery never ends.

BTinTrouble #3009455 08/15/19 11:24 AM
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The bottom line is she is not enthusiastic enough about the UA activities in order to stay awake for them. When you're doing something out of obligation rather than desire, it feels like a duty.

Is there another way you can approach your evening so either she still has the energy to engage in UA time and activities, or you connect better at an emotional level beforehand so she is more enthusiastic about connecting with you than she is about falling asleep?

Last edited by Sunnytimes; 08/15/19 11:25 AM.
BTinTrouble #3009456 08/15/19 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by BTinTrouble

Kids started school this week, so 3 of the 4 will be gone all day. I have been getting up for work about 5am and able to be home earlier. Since I don't play any games anymore, this has meant a lot more time to be with MrsBT and focus on affection, admiration and intimate conversation. We have gone out together with friends where she has engaged in drinking, and some of the SF on those nights has definitely surpassed anything from the last 3-5 years or so and that has been nice. I haven't really drank at all for a long time.

By my guesstimate, we are (kind of) doing 20 hours of UA. I say kind of because MrsBT will check her phone periodically or do things around the house where we aren't really doing it 'together,' just both doing something around the same time. Therefore, actual UA time is probably more like 10-15 hrs.

I get that she is tired. I am glad she is resting. It is just apparent to me that all of the things getting her energy and attention besides me are the priority. I am happy that she is serious about getting back into MB together, reviewing what UA actually is. I resent being told that we will do something (SF, a conversation, cuddling, a walk, w,e) and she will pass out as soon as we get near a bed. I am hoping getting back into MB will help resolve this resentment. Otherwise, I guess we will need to relearn POJA, how to negotiate, and what Independent Behaviors are.



OK BT, I see what you are doing and it will never ever work. What you are doing is doing the SAME THING you have always done and "counting" it as UA time. Nothing you mentioned above is UA time. First off, DEDUCT any UA time that is spent with friends or spent at home. It doesn't count. Start planning 4 - 4 hour dates OUTSIDE OF THE HOME without kids and without friends. Plan those dates at a time of day where you are most energetic, ie: 5-6pm for most people. Look attractive for each other. Those dates should be focused on meeting the intimate emotional needs of affection, conversation, recreational companionship.

UA time spent at home MIGHT WORK for the rare few couples who are in love, but it certainly won't work for a couple who has fallen out of love. Sit down every Sunday afternoon and start SCHEDULING and planning your dates using this worksheet. https://www.marriagebuilders.com/file.htm?id=8-C9F0F895FB98AB9159F51FD0297E236D


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Sunnytimes #3009457 08/15/19 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Sunnytimes
The bottom line is she is not enthusiastic enough about the UA activities in order to stay awake for them. When you're doing something out of obligation rather than desire, it feels like a duty.

Is there another way you can approach your evening so either she still has the energy to engage in UA time and activities, or you connect better at an emotional level beforehand so she is more enthusiastic about connecting with you than she is about falling asleep?



This is exactly WHY UA time is not effective at home. When you are home, you do what you do at home, housework, taking care of children, going to bed. THAT is not a date. Being the in the same room with your wiped out, scraggly looking, exhausted spouse is not a DATE. UA time should be spent out on DATES.

Not even Dr Harley and Joyce spend their UA at home because it is so lousy. When they are home, their attention is focused on hobbies, house duties, etc.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


MelodyLane #3009458 08/15/19 02:20 PM
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Also, deduct any DATES that are under 3 hours.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


BTinTrouble #3009469 08/16/19 01:01 PM
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I suspect that if we plan them intentionally together we can address that. It has been just me trying to squeeze whatever I can in as an effort to Plan A. I haven't even said that I am trying to create time for UA. Step 1 is for me to be honest about my desire to incorporate Policy of UA and start a conversation about it.

Date tonight. Also, brother broke his leg and is staying with us.... Yay.


Lifelong recovery never ends.

BTinTrouble #3009470 08/16/19 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Also, brother broke his leg and is staying with us.... Yay.

You do not sound enthusiastic about this. Why does he need to stay with you? What's wrong with his own home? Did you and your wife enthusiastically agree to having him stay?

He could babysit while you and your wife get out at least four times a week. That would benefit your marriage greatly. However, if either of you has made a reluctant agreement, or feels they have no choice but to have him stay (not true), the resentment will harm your marriage - so don't do it.


BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
BTinTrouble #3009478 08/17/19 01:11 AM
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His family is 3 states away and he was out here for work. It's not that she is not enthusiastic about him being here, and yes, it will make dates easier, it's just more headache and drama in general. He may not be here long, his situation is weird and him and his wife could really use MB. But... Can only lead a horse to water, and I am not consistently a shining example.


Lifelong recovery never ends.

MelodyLane #3009498 08/17/19 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by MelodyLane

OK BT, I see what you are doing and it will never ever work.


Yes, I know this.

Right now this is basically the way you do need meeting while in Plan A, at least that what it seems like to me. Until MrsBT actually sits down to schedule it, and we actual do 4 hr dates meeting those 4 needs, it's not really UA.

For purposes of clarity, is there a different term for the hours spent unilaterally trying to meet needs during a Plan A?

That's the term I would use for our hours so far.

Also, I just saw your posts ML and in no way intended to ignore them. Thank you so much.


Lifelong recovery never ends.

BTinTrouble #3009505 08/19/19 04:27 PM
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Quote
Now she is asleep next to me, I will go to bed in about 20 mins, but she will be asleep (again) for 'our' nightly prayer.

If markos had written this sentence about me, I would not talk to him for a week. It is disrespectful and sarcastic.

Quote
It is just apparent to me that all of the things getting her energy and attention besides me are the priority.

This is a Disrespectful Judgement.

Quote
I resent being told that we will do something (SF, a conversation, cuddling, a walk, w,e) and she will pass out as soon as we get near a bed.

How do you treat her when you feel this resentment? This is a situation that can very easily be seen by her as a Demand on your part. If she cannot back out of an agreed upon activity without punishment, then it is a Demand.

Quote
I am hoping getting back into MB will help resolve this resentment. Otherwise, I guess we will need to relearn POJA, how to negotiate, and what Independent Behaviors are.

The way to resolve the resentment IS to follow the POJA and negotiate. However, you cannot negotiate if you are still engaging in Disrespectful Judgements and Demands.


Markos' Wife
FWW - EA
8 kids ...
What to do with an Angry Husband

BTinTrouble #3009506 08/19/19 04:29 PM
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Your wife was here in 2015 talking about your angry outbursts, and you refused to engage with us here to discuss that issue.

What became of that? What would she say about that?


Markos' Wife
FWW - EA
8 kids ...
What to do with an Angry Husband

BTinTrouble #3009507 08/19/19 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
I dont think I am abusive, but am willing to tackle whatever I need to do if I discover otherwise.

...

I dont in any way want to minimize abuse. However, at this point, mostly based on her fathers statement, I dont believe I am abusive.


I didn't think I was abusive when I came here in 2010, but I was. Would you be considered abusive by Dr. Harley's definition of abuse?

Abusive marriage - Dr. Harley's definition

Do you know what the three behaviors are that Dr. Harley defines as abusive?


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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