@prisca - I didn't know my wife was on here in 2015 talking about something. I didn't refuse to engage on anything.

@markos - thanks for the link, I will read that next.

I stayed up all night the other night because I had an issue I wanted to talk to her about but I didn't want to engage in Love Buster's. I wanted to, for once, make a complaint in a healthy and respectful way.

So I made a list of every thought and feeling I was having. Then I started labelling them. When I found a selfish demand, I would stop and consider if it was demanded of me if I would be OK with it. I would ask myself if that was a healthy, respectful or effective way to address what I wanted, and if it wasnt, why not. For DJ's I would identify what the negative assumption was and what things I didn't KNOW that made it an assumption and therefore unfair. I went through the list over and over adding to it as new thoughts and feelings occurred to me and deleting Love Buster's as I identified and resolved them.

The whole process of paying attention to what I am feeling is new to me, difficult and takes time. I believe the 4 things I had left were the basis for a respectful complaint and we had a good conversation in the morning.

I don't want that to take all night every time. I am hoping practice improves proficiency. But, if it takes all night everytime, protecting her is worth it.

Great! Can you post your answer to my questions above? Trying to give you some help, here.

I'd also like some answers to my questions. You were having Angry Outbursts in 2015. Are you still having Angry Outbursts? Would your wife say that you are having Angry Outbursts?

Do you see the disrespect here?

And in this statement -- do you see the disrespect?

Do you understand how this can be seen as demanding?

Admirable.


This is a difficult process at the beginning, especially when it comes to Disrespectful Judgements. Do continue to do this. And in addition, as her to keep you accountable. Let her know you want her to tell you when she finds you demanding or disrespectful -- or if you say something she finds upsetting, but she can't put into words why it is upsetting. Sometimes the disrespect can be subtle, and that is why it is very difficult to eliminate altogether. She may find herself upset, and not understand why she feels that way.

What was her feelings about the conversation?

Will your wife return here to post?

@markos - by Dr. Harley's definition, and the definition I want to measure myself against, yes, I have been abusive.

According to that definition, every single person in every marriage I have ever seen is abusive. That is anecdotal to be sure, maybe my family is just full of abusive people.
If that is not normal to anyone else, than I congratulate your good fortune in having living models you can observe. That does not make abusive behavior on my part excusable.

I think it is important to know though, that there is a stark difference between Dr. Harley's definition of abuse and the legal definition of what constitutes abuse, and some of those marriages I have seen are not abusive by the legal definition.

I think the difference is, if your 'line' is not doing illegal abuse, you won't have a happy and fulfilling marriage and I think that is the point Dr Harley is trying to make by correctly labeling all Love Buster's, as behaviors that destroy love, as abuse.

It's just frustrating when having a conversation where the legal definition is being applied and used, and then getting switched to Dr Harley's definition when the legal standard doesn't hold.

You realize my story is that I came here as an abusive husband and saved my marriage by learning to stop being an abusive husband, right?



Don't you think it's time to learn Dr. Harley's definition so his system can help you, here?

I'm not asking you these questions to shame you - I'm asking these questions to find out if you are ready to get busy and do Marriage Builders!

This is neither here nor there when it comes to saving your marriage.

Her emotions and the state of your marriage does not care if your abuse falls under the legal definition. The law wasn't designed to save marriages.

Oh my gosh.... I can't keep up.

@prisca - yes I see the DJs in my previous posts. I post here as a stream of consciousness so I can read it outside myself and get feedback like yours. Thank you. I am still exploring and trying to find better ways to help me identify destructive behaviors so I can eliminate them.

I have no idea if my wife will post here. I showed her my thread here about 8-9 years ago, but I never saw her thread or user name.

What you said about having her keep me honest by asking her for feedback is what I am hoping for. It has been a problem for us for a long time that she isn't honest with me when she is unhappy. I believe that conversation went well mostly because after ward she opened up about having DJ thoughts and I said thanks for telling me.

No, I am not having Angry Outbursts since Jun 18 this year. Maybe since earlier, but i know none since at least then. I suffer them, but I don't retaliate any more.

I was not aware of your story Markos. I may have been 10 years ago, but I don't recall today. Definitely recognize your name and appreciate your time.

10 years ago the story was in progress - it took me a long time to listen and actually do what Dr. Harley was recommending.

Here's what I'm trying to get you to see: yes, you have a problem being abusive, and you need to understand how Dr. Harley defines the problem and what he recommends you do to correct it. I don't hold out a lot of hope if your only reaction to this is to be defensive. It keeps you from listening. I know because it's exactly what I did for a few years until I decided to get busy and correct the problem that was destroying my marriage.

My only reaction is not defensive. This started with your question of 'By Harley's definition are you abusive?' 'Yes, here is what I am working at, feedback please?'

The legal thing was stupid to bring up here in the first place but here we are. The fact is, police, CPS case workers, therapists, family, etc. all use the legal definition. So while that isn't relevant here, it is certainly relevant with them. MrsBT told the CPS case worker during her visit on Monday that MrsBT is not concerned about me being abusive at this time. Do I think that means I don't need to work on DJs and probably some SDs, as well as continue to develop habits around arresting AOs? No. She is just telling the case worker I am not abusive in the legal sense. The word and definition we are using matters.

Thank you for pointing me to Dr. Harley's definition and that article. I have thanked you for your time and feedback, offered what I am doing and asked for more. If you really see my only reaction as defensive, than what do I need to do different? Why giving up hope? Help me understand what I am missing that you see as defensive in my stating that I am not abusive in the legal sense.

Ask her. She may say no, but make the request.

This is understandable, given your history of abusive lovebusters. Your last Angry Outburst was fairly recent. Your Disrespect and Demands are even more recent. It may be awhile before she feels safe being honest with you.

What ever you do, DO NOT PUNISH HER HONESTY.

Bringing up the legal definition comes across as defensive. It comes across as "I may be abusive by Harley's standards, but I'm not THAT bad."
Yes, it really is THAT bad.
You may not lose your children to CPS because of an AO you had at your wife. You may not go to jail because you were a Demanding, Disrespectful jerk. The thing is, the legal definition is the bare minimum of what abuse is. You may have not done anything that would get you into legal trouble, but what you did is just as destructive. It will be easier to eliminate these lovebusters when you see them as just as destructive and dangerous.

Ask her to post here? Or if she did before? Or ask to see her old posts? I am not sure what you mean.


One doesn't stay up all night to make sure 3 sentences are free of DJs and SDs if they don't think it's 'that bad.'

I am fully aware it is that bad. I have been on the receiving end of AOs, SDs, DJs, IB, and Dishonesty enough to be acutely aware of how hurtful it is (including recently). Since learning about MB I have been able to identify the behaviors in my parents, aunts and uncles and see how damaging it is. I see my kids when MrsBT is swearing, yelling and slamming dishes around.

I know it is 'that' bad.

That's why I am here. Why I listen to the radio show. Why I am reading things. The biggest lesson I have learned out of this is that lifelong recovery really must be lifelong. It is not enough to get to some 'there' and then coast. I love my wife when she isn't hurting me, I love our family, and I want to be what I know I can be for them and myself.

Ask her to come here and post.


Yes, they do.

I get it -- you are fully aware that you are abusive.

Now take a moment and listen to the feedback about how you come across. That's part of the retraining of your behavior.

Here's some more feedback ...


Pretend that it is your wife who just told you "It's that bad."
And pretend you came back to her with the post you made above: "I am fully aware it is that bad."

If that had been the case, you would have made lovebank withdrawals. A lot of women are going to feel dismissed (a Disrespectful Judgement) if their husbands say "I'm fully aware ..."

Thank you prisca.

@prisca, I relayed your message, MrsBT said she remembered your name.