Dear all,

I am new here, I am married to my wife close to 18 years. We have two wonderful kids, 11 and 13.
I am a researcher and my wife had to make a lot of compromises… move from one country to another… The relationship was indeed not great - seldom intimacy and conversation/affection on both sides. I substituted it with a lot of work that I now know did not fulfil me and showed increasingly demands, judgement and sometimes angry outbursts.

Past September, my wife started an affair with a male co-worker. End of the year she changed her job.
Beginning of the year, she led me know that she is not sure whether there is any love for me and she was considering a divorce.
She said she felt empowered and saw this empowerment - that I wanted for her all the time (granted not using the most ineffective means) - as liberating. We agreed to try counselling - she stopped contacting the lover - a RELATE trained marriage counsellor in the UK was approached.

I felt that the 4-5 sessions we had did not provide guidance… only vague feelings was questioned, which was very frustrating.
I understand that our relationship is very weak, but I had hoped for clear guidance. I recognised my shortcomings, tried not to pressure her…
In any case, she also never deleted the contact number to the lover. The wife’s lover is fighting for their marriage too.
As you can imagine, I have stopped all negative habits for the past 6 weeks, yet I could not show any affection/positive steps… as there is too much pain on her side.

After the finale session (the first individual one) / this Friday, my wife let me know that she does not have the energy to rebuild the marriage.

I am sad of this outcome - I did not object and said that it might be good to give her space.
She seems more relaxed now but I am afraid of a messy separation and divorce with my kids as ultimate victims.
I am now with the kids visiting relatives. In the meantime, she tries to get back to the lover.

It is a messy situation… I am not sure you can help with your advice.

Welcome to MB. I'm sorry to hear about these events in your marriage.

There are several questions that we need to ask, but I'll start with a few.

You say that "the lover" (please get rid of this term in your head. It romanticises the affair. He is the Other Man - OM) is fighting for his marriage, too. Please confirm that this mean that he is married. Does his wife know about the affair? Have you contacted her directly about the affair, to tell her what you know and find out what she knows? If so, how does she feel about her marriage now? Is she willing to rebuild her marriage? What if she knew that OM was still in contact with your wife - would she end the marriage? Do they have kids - of what ages?

How do you know your wife is trying to get back with the lover? Has she told you this, or do you have any means of monitoring her phone and online activities?

You are visiting relatives now, but do you intend for you and the kids to go back home when the visit is over? We would strongly warn you not to move out of your home.

It sounds as if you are in the UK now, but is that temporary? Is there any plan to move back to your home country? You need to prevent the situation where she moves away with the kids. If anything, you need to offer to move back home, all of you together.

I'll stop and give you a chance to respond.

You might find it reassuring to know that this is not a particularly messy situation - it seems like a very common affair pattern, where the unfaithful spouse meets someone from work. In addition, in the case of your wife, she has kids, which are a big pull back to the marriage. Your wife is involved with a married man, which will ultimately lead her nowhere, and she will grow to see that. Her married man will not leave his own kids to move in with her and her kids. Her married man got involved because your wife made it easy for him to have sex and clandestine thrills. That is nothing to throw away a marriage for, and he won't do that. You need to concentrate on busting up the affair - and you have tools to do this - and making her agree to give your marriage another try. She'll be obsessed with the affair, and depressed and miserable when it seems to be ending, so you'll have to be patient while she tries to hang on to it with every ounce of her energy. (This is if you want to rebuild; no-one would fault you for wanting to walk away, as long as you protect your kids.)

UK Relate does not tell people what to do when there is an affair. Dr Harley's Marriage Builders programme tells people how to fight the affair and rebuild the marriage when it is over. You need to read the free articles about surviving an affair, on this site.

Thank you for the prompt response:

here my responses:

-> You say that "the lover" (please get rid of this term in your head. It romanticises the affair. He is the Other Man - OM) is fighting for his marriage, too. Please confirm that this mean that he is married.

Yes he is married.

-> Does his wife know about the affair?

Yes she knows of the affair and is also trying to rescue the marriage.

-> Have you contacted her directly about the affair, to tell her what you know and find out what she knows? If so, how does she feel about her marriage now? Is she willing to rebuild her marriage? What if she knew that OM was still in contact with your wife - would she end the marriage? Do they have kids - of what ages?

I have not contacted her. My wife told it to me. They have no kids - are married for 20 years... my wife said that the OM said to her that she is controlling.

-> How do you know your wife is trying to get back with the lover? Has she told you this, or do you have any means of monitoring her phone and online activities?

Once I did not object and said that it might be good to give her space, she told me that she will finally call him once visiting relatives with the kids. I can monitor her calls yet so far she has not called OM. Before leaving for the airport, I left her a romantic poem book - she liked it a lot, yet i am not sure if it is her elevated feelings to talk soon to the OM.

-> You are visiting relatives now, but do you intend for you and the kids to go back home when the visit is over? We would strongly warn you not to move out of your home.

It is a long planned visit. We will be back by mid-week. No intention to leave... i want my family in a beatiful house.

-> It sounds as if you are in the UK now, but is that temporary? Is there any plan to move back to your home country? You need to prevent the situation where she moves away with the kids. If anything, you need to offer to move back home, all of you together.

We live in London bought a newbuild 2 years ago. We plan to stay. We both like it here.

I'll stop and give you a chance to respond.

Thank you for your comments.

Here my comments:

-> Her married man will not leave his own kids to move in with her and her kids. Her married man got involved because your wife made it easy for him to have sex and clandestine thrills.

The OM has no kids. My did not show much affection to my wife and she felt it... she felt hurt and certainly looked for reassurance. She told me that they had once sex in Dec... the OM knew that she would leave for the other job... The initimate affair - first kiss - started end of September... and my wife got the other job offer around that time.

-> You need to concentrate on busting up the affair - and you have tools to do this - and making her agree to give your marriage another try.

I was good from January when she confessed to the affair. I read your books and avoid the love busting bahaviours that she also pointed out: angry outbursts, judgement and demands.
I am much more relaxed to her and also to kids. I control my work stress levels. She knows this. But she does not trust my behaviour. As I did not object for the separation, she might get angry if I aks her again for a counsel try. Not sure. Since Friday, she sleeps in the guest room. I hope the affair dies out soon, yet I am afraid that she thinks she being a strong indepenent women is incopaible with me. She lost weight and is much more attractive now. I cannot touch her. We talk though.

-> She'll be obsessed with the affair, and depressed and miserable when it seems to be ending, so you'll have to be patient while she tries to hang on to it with every ounce of her energy.

I agree with you... she never wanted to delete the number. She seemed not really committed to the sessions. I think she looked for reassurance to leave. She told me that she woudl do this independent of the OM. I am not sure.

-> UK Relate does not tell people what to do when there is an affair. Dr Harley's Marriage Builders programme tells people how to fight the affair and rebuild the marriage when it is over. You need to read the free articles about surviving an affair, on this site.

I have read all the articles. I mentioned them to her... she has not read them. I ordered the books that will arrive in my absence. Is there an online councelling option following your programme?

First, I need to clarify as you seem to think that I am Dr Harley, the author of the books and free articles on this site. I am not him: I am a woman who has been through a drawn-out version of what you're going through now, and because of my experience, I know that you are being told a lot of lies. You must be much sharper than you've probably been so far if you are to survive this ordeal.

My husband's affair dragged on and on. He was able to hide it from me because his OW lived in another country and he had a job that involved travelling there. I had no clue that after I first discovered it, he didn't tell OW "sorry, my wife and I are rebuilding our marriage" as I thought he had done. (The reality is that the unfaithful spouses never do this. They do not end the affair until continuing it becomes deeply uncomfortable for them.) After my first discovery, my husband simply told OW nothing about my finding out, and back here at home, let me think the affair was over. I found out two years later that it had never ended after my first discovery. After my second discovery it continued in person for another year because of his working abroad and my finding it impossible to monitor him - 3.5 years of the physical part, in total.

During that final (3rd) year of the physical affair, I too saw a counsellor at my GP practice, and her advice was that his job was not the problem. She said that he could change jobs and simply find someone at the new job. Her advice left me stuck. I could leave and break up my children's home even though my husband was promising it was all over, or I could beg him to be truthful with me and threaten to have nervous breakdown if he wasn't being. Neither of those things is the way to end an affair, or make a decision as a betrayed spouse. I was in limbo for months after several meetings with the counsellor. Meetings with her were an expensive way of sitting and crying for an hour.

It took my stumbling across Dr Harley's work to realise that I needed my husband to leave his job if there was to be any chance of his ending his contact with OW. If my husband was the kind of unfaithful spouse that Dr Harley mostly wrote about, he had not been hell-bent on an affair. He had done something he thought had no chance of being discovered but they built up a deep, alternative life hidden from both their spouses. By the second time I found out they were addicted to each other and the affair, and were in love.

My point is that the affair got underway because the opportunity for no-strings sex presented itself, and he thought that since it was all taking place abroad, there was no chance of his being found out. There was a big gap in our marriage through which he could lead a secret second life - the gap being travelling abroad.

Dr Harley's work showed me that if he was that sort of unfaithful husband, and not the kind who seeks affairs, I needed to give him the choice of giving up his job or staying with me. Within a short time of reading Dr Harley on this site, I gave my husband an ultimatum - me or the job. He gave up the job right then and there. He was besotted with OW, was having a great time travelling abroad with her, but he wasn't prepared to give up his life with me for her. That's how most married men feel. The affair is hugely thrilling, but that doesn't mean they would choose OW over the wife. They love their wife (and kids, if any) and don't actually want to give it all up, no matter how much they have complained to OW about the marriage. Complaining about the marriage comes with the territory. You wouldn't expect them to tell their OW that their marriage is good, and they love their wife. This is likely to be true with OM in your case.

However, in my case, OW's sporadic telephone contact continued via his work for about another 5 years, and it took his retirement for her to stop being able to contact him out of my sight. She was a very obsessive woman, but we have no reason to think your wife will be like her.

I don't usually write my story here any more, but I'm telling you all this because during those years I learned a lot about married women who have affairs with married men. Using Dr Harley's advice, after a long time of being gaslighted and outright lied to, I contacted her husband and he told me a lot about his marriage, and he found out a lot more about their affair, by asking his wife. He too made her change her job as she was also travelling away from home.

I don't have any reason yet to think that your wife is like OW in my marriage, but there are a few things I am cast-iron certain about. All betrayed spouses do these things, and married women in love do them worse.

She is lying about only having had sex once.

She is lying about her last contact with him - about having phoned him to say goodbye, and sticking to that. If she knows you can monitor her calls, she probably has a secret affair phone.

She is lying about what OM's wife does and does not know. She is lying about anything she says about their marriage. If OM's wife (OMW) is so controlling, she's doing a rubbish job of it.

She is lying to your counsellor. However, as she can probably by now see that the counsellor will not tell her to end her affair, she might now be perceiving the counsellor as an ally. If she can get the counsellor to get you to see that she must follow her heart, the counselling would be worth going through. Relate counselling is absolutely useless to you now.

Now, I know your wife has already left her job, but the crucial advice Dr Harley gives is that she must actually end contact with him for good (not just tell you she has ended it - she's lying). You need to contact his wife to get her on side, you need to spy on your wife's communications so that you do not wake up in two years' time and find yourself where I was, and you need to confront OM (not necessarily in person) and tell him that if he ever speaks to your wife again, you will know, and his wife will be the first person to know after that. Contact his employer and let them know that this affair started while he was supposed to be working. HR will speak to him and he will not be pleased about that. You have to bring down holy hell on his head so that he knows that this this particular married woman - your wife - is not worth the uncomplicated sex. Let him know that it's not uncomplicated any more, and you do not appreciate his putting your children's happiness at risk.

Stand up to this man to protect your children.

There is an online counselling programme for Marriage Builders, but you don't need that now. You need to write to Dr Harley directly and he will advise you for free. He has a weekday online radio programme during which he and his wife read and answer emails. It would be great if you would agree to have your letter read out on air, because then regular listeners like me would be able to hear his advice and use it in the future. If you would agree to go on air, you would get quite a lot of airtime to ask questions and explain your worries. However, if you don't want to go on air or have it read out, he will email his response, and keep emailing with you for as long as you need. All of this is free. I'll get you the address to write to shortly.

Welcome to MB and sorry for what has brought you here.

If you want to save your marriage, please follow Dr. Harley’s plan and expose the affair.

Also, I would ask the MODS to move your thread to Survining an Affair section.

Please read Exposure 101

Also please think about emailing Dr. Harley.

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the broadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will receive a call to explain the procedure.

just sent my post to the email - thank you. In the meantime, she admitted to have been in contact with the OM during the councelling... at least the first 2-3 weeks... she does not remember she tells me.
She met him yesterday. I try to figure out the OM's spouse to talk to her...

Did she volunteer the information that she met him yesterday, or did you find out by spying?

What spying techniques are you using (apart from checking her phone, which she already knows you can do)? Have you put a keylogger on her phone while you have the chance? Also, hide a voice recorder in the place she is likely to speak to him - e.g. her car.

Start by Googling the spouse's name. You will be able to narrow her down from the many people sharing her names. There is so much available information online that you can do this in minutes.

No surveillance necessary … I asked her directly as the RELATE counsellor reminded us for the next meeting this Thursday. She wanted the meeting first yet now said that she will cancel it. I asked her if she was ever committed to the session and whether she was in contact with him during this time. She said first 2-3 weeks she was in contact with him… so she lied also during counselling.

I have asked a PI to figure out the address of the OM’s wife to meet her. I need to know whether they really break up/ their marriage is over. My wife told me that his marriage will be over soon.

My family advises me to file for divorce…
I will meet my mother in law tomorrow - she was told that we do not love each other any longer and divorce is considered. I will open up to her. I have much respect for her… it will be tough.

Have you read the exposure thread?

Who all have you exposed to?

My parents, my brother&wife know, tomorrow my mother in law, her sister. Then I go back to the U.K.:
Next week the OM’s wife and his company/HR.
I think the two friends of my wife know about the affair… but I will try to talk to them too. It seems that they do not discourage her to consider separation…

I find it difficult to tell it to my kids (11/13) now … they feel that something is not right. I might do after I talk to the OM’s wife.

I think I should open up to mother in law, workplace of OM, OM‘s spouse and her friends in the U.K. on the same day next week… this way I target them all at once.

I might then open up to kids.

My wife will be out of town from Monday to Friday … she might be furious … is it a good strategy?

Should I wait until Friday if she is coming back?

Today I will talk to the mother in law and say that I will try my best to rebuild but it depends on her. If she asks more I will tell her to talk to her. She is aware of a possible separation as she heard her clean, limited version without the affair.

Yes, of course your wife will be furious. That doesn't mean it's a bad strategy. That just means you've hit home.

However, you want to do all of the telling people quickly, rather than dragging it out over a long time. That way you aren't going through the same furious uproar over and over again, which distracts from the actual good that exposure can do.

Did you read the exposure thread? You should expose all at once.

Also, here to help with Exposing to Children

Update: We went to another marriage counsellor on Saturday together…this marriage counsellor was highly recommended by the divorce lawyer I contacted. We spent nearly 5 hours at the counsellors place… it rocked her a little… we had good talks, yet on Sunday she had the desire to see the OM. I was expecting for her to get clarity and did not object, yet she got nothing out of it. Apparently, she told him that we have now meaningful talks and he said that he wants to get a divorce. The OM is married for 20 years without kids… and cannot offer her the lifestyle I can provide.
The private investigator I hired to get all info of the wife of the OM will be done by this weekend. I will then strike and reveal to all plus my kids. In the meantime, my wife stays at a hotel for business until Friday - he might go and meet her. We agreed not to make any steps (affair and divorce proceedings) without contacting the marriage counsellor. The idea is that we start individual sessions. She has not called the counsellor yet which is frustrating. I want her to have individual sessions with the counsellor to ‚rattle ‘ her… she needs to wake up.

Yes, she will continue to have the desire to see the other man for quite some time, as long as he maintains a high balance in her love bank.

Which is why you need to carry through with the sudden all at once exposure process to make as much trouble in the affair as you can. Don't let yourself get dissuaded!

Are you listening to Dr. Harley's daily radio show? You need as much education and encouragement as you can get, and the show provides both.

Dissuasion = fear. What are you fearful of exactly? The real fear is facing a Grizzly Bear that wants to eat you. This fear is an illusion that you will have to deal with uncomfortable pushback or feelings from your wife or the OM or family. Don't focus on the problem; focus on what you want and deserve. You deserve an extraordinary relationship where you feel safe and where you get your needs met. It appears to me that your wife is in the FOG and thinks that this OM and she have a real future with an Affairage. This is highly unlikely. Fear is what holds you captive. If you manage to keep it together you will be fine and if the marriage ends you will be fine.

Yes, this kind of fear leads to conflict avoidance, and quite frankly, conflict avoidance is the KISS OF DEATH to marriage.

Something that helped me overcome this was reminding myself "I'm scared that if I do this, she'll be angry or stop speaking to me. But she's already angry. She's already not speaking to me. These things are already happening. This is the only way to possibly stop that, no matter how uncomfortable or anxiety-inducing it might be. I may have to accept a period of anger or silence. That'll be miserable. But I already have that NOW!"

Update:

The counsellor rattled her in her personal session last Saturday … my wife went in determined to leave me and my kids for the OM. The counsellor told her that the OM is fake and will never leave his wife… his wife might not even know … the counsellor told her all the bad consequences… the kids will hate him, the OM does not even have kids and does not like kids. She will end alone. She also told her that I might leave her as I will turn for another person to give my love. The session took several hours. Once my wife came home after the session, she cried a lot over the past two days… it seems that she doubts the OM. She seems to have no hope. Finally, I have received the email and address of the OM’s wife. I will contact her to rattle things on the other side soon. The counsellor supports this step but in a gentle way.

Unfortunately, the counsellor said that my wife seems not willing though to work on our marriage. Yesterday, my wife told me that she has no choice… she also considers to be alone as an option. She does not want to get lost when opting for me. I fear she might look to other men to find happiness if this affair does not work out.

I try now not to pressure her and be kind… I would like to learn what emotional needs the OM addressed. She still has not deleted the records and her phone is locked. I have the PUK number of her SIM and am considering to install a mobile tracker software, yet need her sleeping or not next to her phone … better said than done.

My wife does not want to go back to the same counsellor … I guess she hates that she gave her a very good dose of REALITY. She mentioned to me that she would consider another option.

I will be kind but need to also protect my kids. I do not think she wants divorce, but I am prepared to file it to rattle her. I think I also need to face reality that her love might be gone forever despite my changes.

Any help is highly appreciated!

You need to get a move on with exposure. You should be contacting OMW as a matter of urgency. What are you waiting for? When is "soon"?

What does your counsellor mean by "in a gentle way"? What would be a non-gentle way?


To rattle her - how? What reaction are you looking for? What will you do if you don't get that reaction?

Hey, it's been a week since I asked this. I'm serious. Can you expend the minimal effort needed to start listening? You're going to need it.

When are you going to expose?

Thank you for your message... indeed I am listening to the show and they discussed my case in great depth yesterday. I am so thankful for their advice on how to reconnect with my wife and how to proceed with contacting the OMW in a gentle manner. I have started to read my wife 'his needs, her needs'. I will follow their advice provided on the radion show and will encourage my wife to contact Joyce Harley too.

I will contact the OMW by Friday. I will follow the advice given by Joyce on the radio show.

The divorce papers are ready, yet I have not authorised delivery. My wife's happiness illusion bubble seemed to have burst after the session with the therapist. It seems that the OM did not hold his promises when she contacted him and might have rejected her to some extent... my wife does not seem to be that attached to her phone. She is rather depressed... she asked me to not pressure her. We agreed to talk about us only one hour/day. I am considering buying a gravel bike to share her excitement of biking... recreational companionship has been suggested by Dr. Harley as the first step to connect again. This can be complemented with intimate conversations... I will have to practice this...

Okay, excellent! I'll listen for you when I listen to yesterday's show! Keep listening. It's absolutely important.

I would suggest not having relationship talk for an hour a day - look for subjects that are mutually interesting to you both.

When my wife and I were reconnecting, we found we were both very interested in news stories of the royal marriage in Britain in 2011. I have no idea why that was so interesting to us, since we are Americans, but it was, and we talked about it a lot and shared headlines during the day - and the conversation made love bank deposits. Which is hugely important. Most relationship discussions will make love bank withdrawls - they are not enjoyable discussions.

Did Dr. Harley recommend you go through with serving divorce papers? If he didn't personally recommend this, I would encourage you NOT to do it! Instead, focus on carrying through with exposure. See what I said above:


Do you have the book Surviving an Affair, and have you read it?

I ordered it and it will arrive this Friday. My email to the OMW is being reviewed by the marriage counsellor. I will send it out tomorrow and let the OM know to not contact my wife any longer - not sure if he dropped her though given her depression over the last three days - otherwise I will contact HR of his company where the affair started. I am not inclined to let my kids know for now.

My wife has recovered a little - I will read the ‚his needs, her needs’ with her today. I asked if she wants to accompany me to an event tomorrow. She is considering it. It is though strange that she does not show remorse and although she is not that attached to her phone she is still not open with the codes. I hope with the other book arriving we can get this sorted too.

I wonder whether I should ask her directly if the OM stopped the affair… is this a good idea?

Interesting that you reconnected this way… ok I will be kind, ask her to join her for her biking trips, no relationship talk, no affair talk, hope for intimate talk at some point. She might join me tomorrow for an event.

I have not asked Dr. Harley about the serving divorce papers. The paper requires a few weeks to be delivered as we can use English or German law. The German law is more beneficial for me and takes longer to be served. My wife has not done any move and has not mentioned divorce in front of me for two weeks now. So even if I authorise delivery it might take 1-2 months…. and the process can be frozen…

Reviewed for what?

You never answered my question about what kind of "gentle" approach your counsellor is advising, and why. Don't let your counsellor do what I suspect she wants to do, which is to talk you out of exposing to OMW. A lot of people, including counsellors, think that this step is vindictive and cruel, and that the unfaithful spouse should not be backed into a corner in order to stop their affair. They must grow naturally to see that it's wrong, and they must end the affair themselves - otherwise, what kind of marriage will you have?

I used to think this myself until I read Dr Harley's work, and the stories of people on this forum, and saw that I was in fact protecting their affair, and giving OW the secrecy to continue screwing my husband. Learn from those of us who have been through this, and expose, now.

All you need to do with an exposure email to OMW is to say that you are sorry to have to bring her bad news, but your wife has been having an affair with her husband. Tell her your wife has confessed to this. If you know that they conducted the affair at work, say that - but those basic details are all you need to say in an email. Tell her enough to let her know that there is no doubt about this, and then say that she should contact you (by email - I wouldn't give out a phone number yet) if she wants to know more. Of course you should sound very sorry about this, because you know the pain this will cause her, but apart from offering your sympathy there is no way to be "gentle". This is devastating news, but you must give it.

I don't know how to make such a message either gentle or non-gentle, and I wish you would answer me about what the counsellor means by this.

You are going against Dr Harley's advice, and making a grave mistake with this. The purpose of exposure is to shine a light on the affair, so that your wife does not have the privilege of sneaking around in secret any more. She needs to see exactly how upset your kids are. Those of us that took Dr Harley's advice and exposed to children have never regretted doing so. Dr Harley know what he is talking about.

Why would she show remorse? What has changed that you think she would show this now?

She wants her affair, and she is in love with OM. When the affair ends after he throws her under the bus, she will be depressed and unhappy (indeed, from your description, she is already depressed because the affair is not progressing). Only after the affair is long over and your marriage has been rebuilt might she one day show remorse - although I wouldn't bet on it. Many unfaithful spouses think that their unhappy marriages justified what they did, and they never feel or show remorse. But if she were ever to do that, now is far too soon for it to happen.

Do you think she would tell you the truth? Why would she do that? If not (and I think not), what is the point of asking?

You're going to take Marcos's advice not to talk about the affair or your marriage for a while, so you should leave this alone. Blow up the affair to his wife and your kids. When, after exposure, it becomes clear that he will not leave his marriage for her, and that she gave him sex for a promise he never intended to keep, she will be angry and upset. She will definitely try to contact him to berate him for having lied to and deceived her, and to try and get him to see that he really loves her and needs her. But eventually, when he continues to stay with his wife, she will come to accept that it's over, and it was never going to have a happy ending.

Don't expect her to be truthful, or remorseful, or rational, right now.

Thank you for your response. The counsellor wants to make sure that the message is indeed more sorry as she found it to abrupt.

As for the kids, I am not sure how ‘gentle’ I can explain it to them. I might explain the love bank principle and that mummy fell out of love with daddy and developed in her unhappiness more love units with a co-worker and without knowing was in love with him. We are now trying to get back in love again - this will take time. Daddy very much wants to be kind and caring and loving to mummy so that she falls in love again with daddy.

Do you think this is a good exposure narrative?

Among other things, why would you not mention to your children that this hurts their father very much? And that this is why it is wrong to develop such a relationship outside of marriage?

What all did Dr. Harley advise that you do when he covered your situation on the radio? Do you have a list?

I might ask them to also guard that I am truthful to my change - a loving, respectful father and husband that does not control, listens and provide unconditional love.

I wonder whether I should ask my wife whether she wants to be present when I talk to the kids. I would do the talk not at home but at a beautiful big park which is close by. If she refuses, I will do it anyway.

This morning I told her that I will put her front and centre in my life rather than my career… she seems willing to work on it. She seems very vulnerable and it will be good to get the exposure done asap.

No, no, no! This is a moment that YOU control, a moment where YOU step up and do things unilaterally, just as she has unilaterally had an affair. This is not a joint project. You'll get no benefit from it if you do it as a joint project. And you'll get NO benefit and destroy everything if you tip her off that you plan to expose!!! She will jump in BEFORE you and spin the story HER way. Don't let that happen! You HAVE to preempt her, here! If you're not going to do that, just get a quickie divorce and cut ties and move on because there's no point. (Even then, you still need to tell your kids on your own, though, so there's no avoiding this.)

Gracious, Pan, if you tell the whole plan to her she'll jump up unilaterally and start running around telling everybody how it's not an affair, or how it's all your fault, or how you're a drugged out bum who gets drunk and beats her up, or who knows what lies. She is having an affair. Her mind is fogged out on the affair. It's worse than heroin. DON'T put her in the driver's seat, Pan!!

Whose plan are you working? Dr. Willard Harley's successful Marriage Builders plan with a proven track record of success, or one you made up?

Go back up there and answer my questions... Let's get focused, here.

Pan, Dr. Harley has been doing this for fifty years. Successfully. And he warns that this is a very narrow path, here. Stray from it because of the recommendations of some other counselor and you may not find success.

You should NOT be expressing sorrow for her affair.


Here's a good exposure narrative:

Kids, I need you to know that something is going on that is hurting me very much. Your mother has a relationship with another man. That is the worst thing married people could possibly do because it hurts the person they are married to so badly, and their children as well. I am doing my best to try to get your mother to stop seeing this other man. I know this is going to hurt you, too, and I'm going to do everything I can to help you. This is who the other man is (give name, appearance, basic details, etc. so they can know who and where the guy is and avoid him). You need to stay away from him. A man who would have a relationship with another man's wife is untrustworthy and VERY dangerous. If Mommy tries to take you around him, let me know so I can protect you.

This is not your fault, and it's not my fault. I've made some mistakes, but starting a relationship with another person while married is not the way to handle mistakes from the person you are married to. You can talk to me any time about how you feel and ask questions if you need. You can talk to Mommy if you want. I still love you, and I still love your mother, and I will do everything in my power to stop this and be the best husband I can be and save our family!

Dear Markos, here are the take home messages from the radio show:

The affair seems to die a natural death - follow plan A:
Stop all love busters, be the best husband, upbeat and good father, win the woman over. Give her space to decide.

We seem to have good counselling.
Hence compete for her love over OM who might still interfere.

Good that I hired a PI to contact OMW.
Exposure shines the light of day that is irrational.

The affair happened without planning as timing to leave with small kids is inappropriate.

Do not date as revenge, as I am extremely vulnerable too.

Sit tight until this relationship ends and follow the rules:

Policy of joint agreement, policy of undivided attention, policy of radical honesty, policy of sexual exclusivity (no pornography).

The counsellor could come in to support lifestyle change.

Read survive an affair and his needs, her needs to read her emotional needs. Join with wife for his needs, her needs.

Dating might be too soon with wife but ask her what she likes recreationally. Good way to break affair, go away from kids and have a good time - go on vacation or at least dating. Find the time to build a romantic relationship.

Find a fun date for 15 hour/week - not easy but necessary.

Recreational companionship - join her with what she likes. Add then add intimate conversations… deep and inviting.

Later hold hands and hug. Sex might take quite a while as process of recovery of the next few months.

Get rid of OM by gentle exposure to OMW (share dr Harley books - everybody deserves a great relationship) then be as attractive as possible. No kids exposure discussed… but you all argue do it too, right?

I should say to my wife: Not a lot of energy for you - just work with me long enough to get rid of the OM who is a threat to our family.

Thank you Marcos,

As the affair has abruptly stopped - she barely uses her phone - I will adapt the narrative. Explain the love bank principle followed by saying she had a boyfriend which is not ok and was very hurtful for me and the kids. She met him at her old job.

Followed by your second paragraph plus ask them to support us to reconnect and bring love and harmony to our family.

No, I'm sorry, but I think this is a terrible exposure narrative.

They are kids, for heaven's sake. They are not going to understand what you mean by the "love bank", and they don't need to be taught it.

Dr Harley uses the concept of the love bank so that ADULTS can visualise the principle that everything you do, good or bad, has an effect on your spouse. This isn't an explanation that children need to explain their mother's affair - it is too obscure.

As marcos advises, you need to tell them that Mummy has found a new boyfriend and that this is wrong, because you are married. When you get married, you promise not to have boyfriends or girlfriends for life. You MUST get across to them that having a boyfriend is wrong and it hurts you, and it hurts them because Mummy wants to leave and be with her boyfriend. That would be very sad for you and for the kids.

Your account, as well as being technical and therefore baffling to them, is also trying to avoid saying that Mummy is doing something with another man that hurts the family. You are trying to avoid saying that she is doing something wrong. You are making a great error in trying to be neutral about this - that Mummy "fell out of love with Daddy" and in love with a co-worker - and what does "without knowing was in love with him" mean? How could she not know she was in love with him? Are you trying to say that she didn't realise what she was doing?

You're making this far too difficult, and I believe you are stringing it out because you don't want to do it. You don't want to expose to OMW because you don't want to upset your wife, so you are running a simple email past your counsellor hoping that she will talk you out of it. Why run it past her? How many ways can there be to say "I'm really sorry, but your husband is having an affair with my wife"?

And you don't want to expose to your children because you don't want to rock the boat at home, and I'm not convinced that you intend to do it. We have given you the "exposing to children" thread to read, and instead of using the common phrases from it that people here have used over the years, you're posting long-winded, technical gobbledegook for us to rephrase.

Stop being scared to do the exposure job that needs to be done. You need to expose to right now protect your kids and give them a chance of having a happy family.

I do get your point. I will send the email to the OMW tomorrow.

The affair seems over - my wife has indicated to work on our marriage tonight… she said that I have been a good father the last two months… she is though pretty empty and needs also time for herself. She also mentioned that if I show the love busters behaviour as before, she will leave.

We agreed to identify activities she likes and I join her. The only issue with exposing to kids is that it is now in the past… will it not upset her even more?

Please advise!

Expose to your kids.

I agree. Exposing to Children

Dear all, I will expose for sure but the recovery context is important.

Dr Harley wrote on Mon Jun 18 2012 (shared by Pepperband) the following which I find very insightful:

My position on exposure to children has been consistent over the years for a host of reasons: Tell them about the affair as soon as you discover it. The primary reason for this type of exposure is that they should know eventually anyway, even if the marriage is on the road to recovery, because it gives them accurate information about what their mom and dad are going through.

I MISSED THIS OPPORTUNITY IN JANUARY/FEBRUARY.

If the marriage is headed for recovery, the unfaithful spouse is usually willing to go along with the revelation. But if the affair is still ongoing, or if the recovery is not very solid, the unfaithful spouse will resist the exposure, and become very upset when it's made. Then, it's especially important to expose the affair to the children because it generally speeds up the death of the affair. Affairs don't always die a natural death, but exposure speeds up whatever would have happened without it.

I WILL RECEIVE TODAY THE BOOK SURVIVING AN AFFAIR. I WILL SHARE IT WITH MY WIFE AND DISCUSS THE RECOMMENDATIONS (END THE AFFAIR, CREATE TRANSPARENCY, EXPOSE TO CHILDREN). IF SHE RESISTS I WILL DO IT ANYWAY AND SEND OFF THE LETTER TO THE OMW.

From the first part that I highlighted:

"they should know about it eventually anyway, even if the marriage is on the road to recovery, because..."

They should know about it anyway, even if the marriage is on the road to recovery.

If you believe that your marriage is on the road to recovery (and I don't; not yet) the children should know about it anyway.

Dr Harley does not say, and does nor imply, that if you did not expose the affair as soon as you discovered it you "missed this opportunity".

Most people discover Dr Harley some time after the affair comes to light, and it is highly unlikely that they have already done the things he recommends. He is talking about the ideal situation, where people are in a position to use his concepts from the start. However, for the many who did not know what to do and discovered him somewhat late, he is not saying "too bad: you missed the boat". He doesn't say that with any of the steps. In fact, he takes people back through the steps so that they correctly do the things that they didn't know they should have done.

From the second part that I highlighted:

"if the affair is still ongoing, or if the recovery is not very solid, the unfaithful spouse will resist the exposure, and become very upset when it's made. Then, it's especially important to expose the affair to the children because it generally speeds up the death of the affair."

IF you are in recovery (and I'm convinced this is wishful thinking on your part), your recovery is "not very solid". Your wife has not recommitted to your marriage, and I know from the many stories I have read here, and from my own, that she will go back to OM in a heartbeat if he contacts her. She has not rejected him. She is desperately hoping that he will come around and realise that he wants her, and not his wife.

So, since this recovery is "not very solid", it is especially important to expose the affair to the children.

I will say that it's okay for you to reject Dr Harley's advice. It's your marriage, and if you belief that exposure will be harmful and thus you won't do it, that's your choice to make. Just, please, don't come here asking us to sanction your attempts to be selective with Dr Harley's words and distort what he says, and what he means.

It's tomorrow. Did you send it?

Dear all,

I very much appreciate your help and persistence. I really do!

Dr. Harley addressed yesterday my questions in his radio show… here the summary:

03/03


As the OM seems not to be an immediate threat, should I really reveal the past affair to the OMW. The letter is ready, yet I prefer to wait in case any contact takes place again.

-> Letter is optional, not essential part of the plan for recovery. It has altruistic value (especially only if own marriage is going well). It might end the marriage of the OM and OM might continue relationship with my wife again. Yet if contact occurs between your wife and OM reconsider sending letter.

I do not want to pressure my wife, yet I really want to start the process described in ’Surviving An Affair’… how long should I wait? Especially 'end the affair’ with a clear message and 'create transparency’ to build up trust.

-> You can suggest the book to her. Say that it helped you a lot to understand the situation. The book talks about what your wife is going through. In the meantime, have dates with her... do not leave her alone too much, as she might contact the OM.

Finally, the recovery is still at its infancy… I know I need to be gentle, yet I read that ‘If the marriage is headed for recovery, the unfaithful spouse is usually willing to go along with the revelation.’ Should I wait before I ask her for revealing it to the kids? What should I do if she asks for more time or objects?

-> The kids should know one way or another. Usually exposure recommended while affair is going on. Still recommend exposing it afterward. In your particular situation, you might want to wait a while and then discuss with her how important it is for you to be revealed to them.

It's great that you did as we recommended and wrote directly to Dr Harley for help. We always appreciate hearing his advice applied specifically to cases on the forum.

Dr Harley has given you his advice, and you should do exactly as he says. Nobody here will countermand him.

Dear all, I want to give you an update after 8 days.

I exposed the affair to my kids (son 13; daughter 11) last Wednesday... I must confess that I did not plan it.

I was helping my daughter for her upcoming French exams and noticed that she had a lot of knowledge gaps. I asked her why she had never asked me for help the past few weeks. She responded that she did not want to bother me with her issues, as she saw me often being sad. Her response triggered me to open up. I told her about the affair, how hurtful her mother’s actions were to me, how much I tried to keep my sanity, integrity and how much I focussed on looking after my kids during this time. How much I loved them, my wife and my family. Her initial response was to just hug me... it was so comforting and her maturity surprised me. She told me that she knows of so many unhappy marriages in her school, yet she wishes that we both find our love again. She guessed who the OM was. My wife introduced him to them during a conference call. We discussed the concept of falling in love and falling out of love… it made sense to her. She noticed that my wife and I rarely kissed and hugged each other, now flowers, no cards, not much affection. She understood that we both needed to change and praised my change. Such a mature girl. I was so proud of her. The next day I opened up to my son... well, my daughter had prepared him while they came back from school. She apologised but I was not angry. He was much more reserved.

Both wish that my wife and I find our love for each other again. They understand that mommy and daddy need time alone. My son is more introverted, he does not want to talk about it… he does not want a divorce and asked me to ‘work it out’. At first, my wife was angry about the exposure, but I told her that I want a fair, loving relationship that is based on honesty and trust… which includes the kids who love us both. She swallowed it. My wife had some chats with them, told them that what she did was not right (well she has not said this to me). My daughter let her mum know that daddy still loves her, yet she recognised that her mum is doubtful/undecided.

My wife seems not to have any contact with the OM. She sometimes says that we need counselling to work on our relationship, yet she refused to consider reading the book ‘Surviving an Affair’ when I left it on her pillow with a note last weekend. She seems sometimes hopeful and sometimes hopeless. She mentioned to the kids that I was very kind to them and to her the past two months. Yet once she told me whether she can really trust the ‘new husband’… she seems also still afraid of me and it appears that an internal fight is going on in her head to open up. I really feel good about my change. My kids are very happy and praised me. I asked them to show their love for their mother.

The past week, I have noticed that my wife’s foggy status is slowly ending. We went out twice (pub choir and gin distillery tour with dinner), yet the time is not enough to bond… we both work, the days are short and the weather is crap for recreational activities. I am nice and kind to her. I must confess I am rather impatient… I would love to read with her ‘His Needs, Her Needs’ to understand and address her emotional needs and ‘Surviving an Affair’ to kickstart a true recovery. Not sure how to get this started... how much time should pass. In the meantime, my daughter told me that she still has the phone number of the OM. She is determined to convince her to delete all info. Any advice on how to proceed is highly appreciated.

A discussion about commitment to recovery escalated to being controlling (exposure to kids.) this morning. In the heat of the argument, she admitted to have contacted the OM last Thursday. This was devastating news. We agreed to give each other space. I am now contemplating contacting the OMW and the OM’s HR division.

You need to contact the OM’s BW today. This should have been done. She is going to continue her affair with him. Contact with the OM, means the affair is still ongoing. If you expose to the OM’s BW then there will be pressure put on both sides of the affair.

When will you be exposing to the OM’s BW?

Just did!

Good job! What did his BW say?

Does your WW know?

She called me up and we had a good chat. Indeed she did not meet his emotional needs (sexual fulfilment and recreational companionship)… and was unaware of his affair until he told her about the affair at the same time like me. The OM did not really cooperate in marriage counselling - they only had two sessions. As he kept on having contact with my wife, she asked the OM to leave. He lives now at an Airbnb…and Is short of funds. His friends do not recognise him any longer. I suggested to her to try Dr Harley’s books. She also is aware that this relationship is geographically unrealistic and pure madness… she is a high earner like me and my wife cannot leave the kids. We agreed to support each other. I will suggest to her our marriage counsellor, who is pretty unconventional but proved successful in rattling my wife. Unfortunately, my wife does not trust her any longer.

My wife heard my chat with the OMW and I had a heated chat with her that got calmer tonight - mostly about the control issues like hiring a private investigator, contacting the OMW, the wish to consider recovery rather than divorce or the OM. The kids witnessed us yet were good in supporting us. The presence of the kids keeps us together. We agreed to give each other space. My wife is without hope she says, yet she will consider marriage counselling. I suggested to consider Dr Harley’s books and maybe some online counselling. We called also my mother in law… she would love to help. All is very fluid… I need to step back and I wish her recovery expression is genuine.

Has she sent a NC letter to the OM and blocked him on everything?

We all asked her to do it. We will remind her together tomorrow - primarily my son and my daughter. I might ask my kids to also call the OM to leave her alone. The OMW cannot be that helpful I guess. I will chat with her tomorrow.

My wife hates any sign of control from me. She also noticed that the marriage certificates and birth certificates are missing. I guess she checked them as I rejected her when she admitted that she still had contact to the OM over phone. I told her that she ‘lost me’. I believe she is afraid of me filing a divorce. Indeed the petition is complete in Germany, yet has not been submitted. It might take a few weeks till it arrives in the UK. I am conflicted whether I should send it to rattle her. The kids see that she is depressed… my daughter understands that divorce is only a threat and that the favourable German divorce law might safe our house, my son does not want that I initiate it. Yet my wife could file a divorce in no time in England with a worse outcome for the kids… the loss of the house and their known environment. Not sure if I should initiate it.

My wife disliked my last update to Joyce Harley for the radio show. She prefers to have a private session with Marriagebuilders rather than a publicly shared one. She sent her a email with this wish. Further, we have agreed to not share the same bed for now. My wife shares our master bedroom with my daughter tonight. It is a crazy situation.

Hello PerPan,

You are doing a good job on exposing to your kids, MIL, and the OMW. But you mentioned above OM's HR. Can you remind me, is he a colleague of your wife? Why would you hesitate to do this? It seems that could put even more pressure on this and perhaps wrap it up once and for all. Exposure should be a tsunami and done as fast as possible, and not bit by bit. That could just let her anger continue over and over again.

They both used to work at the same company. My wife changed her job beginning of the year. They saw each other only twice this year - the last time 2.5 weeks ago where I hoped for her to say goodbye… but without any meaningful outcome.

She feels now pressured and cornered as the kids know and she does not want to leave them … she mentioned that she has no hope… and I fear that she might develop longtime resentment… so we need professional help. We agreed to the following:

She will cut contact to the OM - I have asked her to read with me the 10 pages about surviving an affair in the book ‚His Needs, Her Needs‘ and the to do list for ending an affair in the book ‚Surviving an Affair‘… I expect that she will not like the way to say goodbye to him and the measures to secure no contact and build trust. But it needs to be done.

She has started professional counselling to help with her traumatic experiences (childhood and marriage). She had her first session yesterday.

I have agreed to get professional help to control stress and anger (love busters). I will meet a counsellor at my job today to discuss options.

After that, she said that she will then consider marriage counselling. Dr. Harley has offered support over email and I will try to convince her to attend professional sessions too.

I would like to start marriage counselling now (I am very impatient which does not help in this delicate situation), but I think that agreeing to the therapy sessions before marriage counselling is a compromise. I am contemplating asking this question to Dr. Harley. What do you think?

I am not Dr. Harley of course and you should surely carry on your conversation with him and ask him directly. It is great he is supporting you directly.

But i can say that Dr. Harley has regularly been skeptical of 'therapy' that revisits past traumatic experiences. Why bring the past into the present? These experiences are a red herring and not the problem. They did not impact your marriage before the affair, did they?

The problem is the affair and not what happened in her childhood or in previous marriages. Please ask Dr. Harley his position and share with us if you are willing.

Update:

We have started marriage counselling with Dr. Harley. My wife is cooperating and completing the questionnaires. The tension between us is gone. The kids make sure that we give each other space. My wife is now on anti-depressants... yet she still has not deleted the contact number and sent a NC message that she promised 10 days ago. My kids might start to pressure her now and I hope once the questionnaires are completed, counselling with Dr. Harley will make her realise to do this step for our relationship. I have not sent the divorce petition. I have released all controls and feel good whatever the outcome it. I will try to follow Dr. Harley advice... continue with no love busters and try to meet her needs as best as possible. It helps that the kids know - they are a strong dragging/pulling force.

Is this with Dr. Harley or his son Steve Harley that you are meeting with?

With Dr. Harley.... still waiting for my wife to complete all questionnaires... she seems cooperative but not overly excited.