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Originally Posted by ReplaceResent
This fear is an illusion that you will have to deal with uncomfortable pushback or feelings from your wife or the OM or family.

Yes, this kind of fear leads to conflict avoidance, and quite frankly, conflict avoidance is the KISS OF DEATH to marriage.

Something that helped me overcome this was reminding myself "I'm scared that if I do this, she'll be angry or stop speaking to me. But she's already angry. She's already not speaking to me. These things are already happening. This is the only way to possibly stop that, no matter how uncomfortable or anxiety-inducing it might be. I may have to accept a period of anger or silence. That'll be miserable. But I already have that NOW!"


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

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Update:

The counsellor rattled her in her personal session last Saturday … my wife went in determined to leave me and my kids for the OM. The counsellor told her that the OM is fake and will never leave his wife… his wife might not even know … the counsellor told her all the bad consequences… the kids will hate him, the OM does not even have kids and does not like kids. She will end alone. She also told her that I might leave her as I will turn for another person to give my love. The session took several hours. Once my wife came home after the session, she cried a lot over the past two days… it seems that she doubts the OM. She seems to have no hope. Finally, I have received the email and address of the OM’s wife. I will contact her to rattle things on the other side soon. The counsellor supports this step but in a gentle way.

Unfortunately, the counsellor said that my wife seems not willing though to work on our marriage. Yesterday, my wife told me that she has no choice… she also considers to be alone as an option. She does not want to get lost when opting for me. I fear she might look to other men to find happiness if this affair does not work out.

I try now not to pressure her and be kind… I would like to learn what emotional needs the OM addressed. She still has not deleted the records and her phone is locked. I have the PUK number of her SIM and am considering to install a mobile tracker software, yet need her sleeping or not next to her phone … better said than done.

My wife does not want to go back to the same counsellor … I guess she hates that she gave her a very good dose of REALITY. She mentioned to me that she would consider another option.

I will be kind but need to also protect my kids. I do not think she wants divorce, but I am prepared to file it to rattle her. I think I also need to face reality that her love might be gone forever despite my changes.

Any help is highly appreciated!

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Originally Posted by PerPan
Finally, I have received the email and address of the OM’s wife. I will contact her to rattle things on the other side soon. The counsellor supports this step but in a gentle way.
You need to get a move on with exposure. You should be contacting OMW as a matter of urgency. What are you waiting for? When is "soon"?

What does your counsellor mean by "in a gentle way"? What would be a non-gentle way?

Originally Posted by PerPan
I will be kind but need to also protect my kids. I do not think she wants divorce, but I am prepared to file it to rattle her.

To rattle her - how? What reaction are you looking for? What will you do if you don't get that reaction?


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Originally Posted by markos
Are you listening to Dr. Harley's daily radio show? You need as much education and encouragement as you can get, and the show provides both.


Hey, it's been a week since I asked this. I'm serious. Can you expend the minimal effort needed to start listening? You're going to need it.


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Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Please read Exposure 101
Have you read the exposure thread?

Who all have you exposed to?

When are you going to expose?


FWW/BW (me)
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Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Thank you for your message... indeed I am listening to the show and they discussed my case in great depth yesterday. I am so thankful for their advice on how to reconnect with my wife and how to proceed with contacting the OMW in a gentle manner. I have started to read my wife 'his needs, her needs'. I will follow their advice provided on the radion show and will encourage my wife to contact Joyce Harley too.

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I will contact the OMW by Friday. I will follow the advice given by Joyce on the radio show.

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The divorce papers are ready, yet I have not authorised delivery. My wife's happiness illusion bubble seemed to have burst after the session with the therapist. It seems that the OM did not hold his promises when she contacted him and might have rejected her to some extent... my wife does not seem to be that attached to her phone. She is rather depressed... she asked me to not pressure her. We agreed to talk about us only one hour/day. I am considering buying a gravel bike to share her excitement of biking... recreational companionship has been suggested by Dr. Harley as the first step to connect again. This can be complemented with intimate conversations... I will have to practice this...

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Originally Posted by PerPan
Thank you for your message... indeed I am listening to the show and they discussed my case in great depth yesterday. I am so thankful for their advice on how to reconnect with my wife and how to proceed with contacting the OMW in a gentle manner. I have started to read my wife 'his needs, her needs'. I will follow their advice provided on the radion show and will encourage my wife to contact Joyce Harley too.

Okay, excellent! I'll listen for you when I listen to yesterday's show! Keep listening. It's absolutely important.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
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Originally Posted by PerPan
The divorce papers are ready, yet I have not authorised delivery. My wife's happiness illusion bubble seemed to have burst after the session with the therapist. It seems that the OM did not hold his promises when she contacted him and might have rejected her to some extent... my wife does not seem to be that attached to her phone. She is rather depressed... she asked me to not pressure her. We agreed to talk about us only one hour/day. I am considering buying a gravel bike to share her excitement of biking... recreational companionship has been suggested by Dr. Harley as the first step to connect again. This can be complemented with intimate conversations... I will have to practice this...

I would suggest not having relationship talk for an hour a day - look for subjects that are mutually interesting to you both.

When my wife and I were reconnecting, we found we were both very interested in news stories of the royal marriage in Britain in 2011. I have no idea why that was so interesting to us, since we are Americans, but it was, and we talked about it a lot and shared headlines during the day - and the conversation made love bank deposits. Which is hugely important. Most relationship discussions will make love bank withdrawls - they are not enjoyable discussions.

Did Dr. Harley recommend you go through with serving divorce papers? If he didn't personally recommend this, I would encourage you NOT to do it! Instead, focus on carrying through with exposure. See what I said above:

Originally Posted by markos
However, you want to do all of the telling people quickly, rather than dragging it out over a long time. That way you aren't going through the same furious uproar over and over again, which distracts from the actual good that exposure can do.

Do you have the book Surviving an Affair, and have you read it?


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
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I ordered it and it will arrive this Friday. My email to the OMW is being reviewed by the marriage counsellor. I will send it out tomorrow and let the OM know to not contact my wife any longer - not sure if he dropped her though given her depression over the last three days - otherwise I will contact HR of his company where the affair started. I am not inclined to let my kids know for now.

My wife has recovered a little - I will read the ‚his needs, her needs’ with her today. I asked if she wants to accompany me to an event tomorrow. She is considering it. It is though strange that she does not show remorse and although she is not that attached to her phone she is still not open with the codes. I hope with the other book arriving we can get this sorted too.

I wonder whether I should ask her directly if the OM stopped the affair… is this a good idea?

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Interesting that you reconnected this way… ok I will be kind, ask her to join her for her biking trips, no relationship talk, no affair talk, hope for intimate talk at some point. She might join me tomorrow for an event.

I have not asked Dr. Harley about the serving divorce papers. The paper requires a few weeks to be delivered as we can use English or German law. The German law is more beneficial for me and takes longer to be served. My wife has not done any move and has not mentioned divorce in front of me for two weeks now. So even if I authorise delivery it might take 1-2 months…. and the process can be frozen…

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Originally Posted by PerPan
My email to the OMW is being reviewed by the marriage counsellor.

Reviewed for what?

You never answered my question about what kind of "gentle" approach your counsellor is advising, and why. Don't let your counsellor do what I suspect she wants to do, which is to talk you out of exposing to OMW. A lot of people, including counsellors, think that this step is vindictive and cruel, and that the unfaithful spouse should not be backed into a corner in order to stop their affair. They must grow naturally to see that it's wrong, and they must end the affair themselves - otherwise, what kind of marriage will you have?

I used to think this myself until I read Dr Harley's work, and the stories of people on this forum, and saw that I was in fact protecting their affair, and giving OW the secrecy to continue screwing my husband. Learn from those of us who have been through this, and expose, now.

All you need to do with an exposure email to OMW is to say that you are sorry to have to bring her bad news, but your wife has been having an affair with her husband. Tell her your wife has confessed to this. If you know that they conducted the affair at work, say that - but those basic details are all you need to say in an email. Tell her enough to let her know that there is no doubt about this, and then say that she should contact you (by email - I wouldn't give out a phone number yet) if she wants to know more. Of course you should sound very sorry about this, because you know the pain this will cause her, but apart from offering your sympathy there is no way to be "gentle". This is devastating news, but you must give it.

I don't know how to make such a message either gentle or non-gentle, and I wish you would answer me about what the counsellor means by this.

Originally Posted by PerPan
I am not inclined to let my kids know for now.
You are going against Dr Harley's advice, and making a grave mistake with this. The purpose of exposure is to shine a light on the affair, so that your wife does not have the privilege of sneaking around in secret any more. She needs to see exactly how upset your kids are. Those of us that took Dr Harley's advice and exposed to children have never regretted doing so. Dr Harley know what he is talking about.

Originally Posted by PerPan
It is though strange that she does not show remorse and although she is not that attached to her phone she is still not open with the codes.
Why would she show remorse? What has changed that you think she would show this now?

She wants her affair, and she is in love with OM. When the affair ends after he throws her under the bus, she will be depressed and unhappy (indeed, from your description, she is already depressed because the affair is not progressing). Only after the affair is long over and your marriage has been rebuilt might she one day show remorse - although I wouldn't bet on it. Many unfaithful spouses think that their unhappy marriages justified what they did, and they never feel or show remorse. But if she were ever to do that, now is far too soon for it to happen.

Originally Posted by PerPan
I wonder whether I should ask her directly if the OM stopped the affair… is this a good idea?
Do you think she would tell you the truth? Why would she do that? If not (and I think not), what is the point of asking?

You're going to take Marcos's advice not to talk about the affair or your marriage for a while, so you should leave this alone. Blow up the affair to his wife and your kids. When, after exposure, it becomes clear that he will not leave his marriage for her, and that she gave him sex for a promise he never intended to keep, she will be angry and upset. She will definitely try to contact him to berate him for having lied to and deceived her, and to try and get him to see that he really loves her and needs her. But eventually, when he continues to stay with his wife, she will come to accept that it's over, and it was never going to have a happy ending.

Don't expect her to be truthful, or remorseful, or rational, right now.


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Thank you for your response. The counsellor wants to make sure that the message is indeed more sorry as she found it to abrupt.

As for the kids, I am not sure how ‘gentle’ I can explain it to them. I might explain the love bank principle and that mummy fell out of love with daddy and developed in her unhappiness more love units with a co-worker and without knowing was in love with him. We are now trying to get back in love again - this will take time. Daddy very much wants to be kind and caring and loving to mummy so that she falls in love again with daddy.

Do you think this is a good exposure narrative?

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Originally Posted by PerPan
Thank you for your response. The counsellor wants to make sure that the message is indeed more sorry as she found it to abrupt.

As for the kids, I am not sure how ‘gentle’ I can explain it to them. I might explain the love bank principle and that mummy fell out of love with daddy and developed in her unhappiness more love units with a co-worker and without knowing was in love with him. We are now trying to get back in love again - this will take time. Daddy very much wants to be kind and caring and loving to mummy so that she falls in love again with daddy.

Do you think this is a good exposure narrative?

Among other things, why would you not mention to your children that this hurts their father very much? And that this is why it is wrong to develop such a relationship outside of marriage?


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

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What all did Dr. Harley advise that you do when he covered your situation on the radio? Do you have a list?


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
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I might ask them to also guard that I am truthful to my change - a loving, respectful father and husband that does not control, listens and provide unconditional love.

I wonder whether I should ask my wife whether she wants to be present when I talk to the kids. I would do the talk not at home but at a beautiful big park which is close by. If she refuses, I will do it anyway.

This morning I told her that I will put her front and centre in my life rather than my career… she seems willing to work on it. She seems very vulnerable and it will be good to get the exposure done asap.

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Originally Posted by PerPan
I wonder whether I should ask my wife whether she wants to be present when I talk to the kids.

No, no, no! This is a moment that YOU control, a moment where YOU step up and do things unilaterally, just as she has unilaterally had an affair. This is not a joint project. You'll get no benefit from it if you do it as a joint project. And you'll get NO benefit and destroy everything if you tip her off that you plan to expose!!! She will jump in BEFORE you and spin the story HER way. Don't let that happen! You HAVE to preempt her, here! If you're not going to do that, just get a quickie divorce and cut ties and move on because there's no point. (Even then, you still need to tell your kids on your own, though, so there's no avoiding this.)

Gracious, Pan, if you tell the whole plan to her she'll jump up unilaterally and start running around telling everybody how it's not an affair, or how it's all your fault, or how you're a drugged out bum who gets drunk and beats her up, or who knows what lies. She is having an affair. Her mind is fogged out on the affair. It's worse than heroin. DON'T put her in the driver's seat, Pan!!

Whose plan are you working? Dr. Willard Harley's successful Marriage Builders plan with a proven track record of success, or one you made up?

Go back up there and answer my questions... Let's get focused, here.


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Originally Posted by PerPan
Thank you for your response. The counsellor wants to make sure that the message is indeed more sorry as she found it to abrupt.

Pan, Dr. Harley has been doing this for fifty years. Successfully. And he warns that this is a very narrow path, here. Stray from it because of the recommendations of some other counselor and you may not find success.

You should NOT be expressing sorrow for her affair.

Quote
As for the kids, I am not sure how ‘gentle’ I can explain it to them. I might explain the love bank principle and that mummy fell out of love with daddy and developed in her unhappiness more love units with a co-worker and without knowing was in love with him. We are now trying to get back in love again - this will take time. Daddy very much wants to be kind and caring and loving to mummy so that she falls in love again with daddy.

Do you think this is a good exposure narrative?

Here's a good exposure narrative:

Kids, I need you to know that something is going on that is hurting me very much. Your mother has a relationship with another man. That is the worst thing married people could possibly do because it hurts the person they are married to so badly, and their children as well. I am doing my best to try to get your mother to stop seeing this other man. I know this is going to hurt you, too, and I'm going to do everything I can to help you. This is who the other man is (give name, appearance, basic details, etc. so they can know who and where the guy is and avoid him). You need to stay away from him. A man who would have a relationship with another man's wife is untrustworthy and VERY dangerous. If Mommy tries to take you around him, let me know so I can protect you.

This is not your fault, and it's not my fault. I've made some mistakes, but starting a relationship with another person while married is not the way to handle mistakes from the person you are married to. You can talk to me any time about how you feel and ask questions if you need. You can talk to Mommy if you want. I still love you, and I still love your mother, and I will do everything in my power to stop this and be the best husband I can be and save our family!


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

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Dear Markos, here are the take home messages from the radio show:

The affair seems to die a natural death - follow plan A:
Stop all love busters, be the best husband, upbeat and good father, win the woman over. Give her space to decide.

We seem to have good counselling.
Hence compete for her love over OM who might still interfere.

Good that I hired a PI to contact OMW.
Exposure shines the light of day that is irrational.

The affair happened without planning as timing to leave with small kids is inappropriate.

Do not date as revenge, as I am extremely vulnerable too.

Sit tight until this relationship ends and follow the rules:

Policy of joint agreement, policy of undivided attention, policy of radical honesty, policy of sexual exclusivity (no pornography).

The counsellor could come in to support lifestyle change.

Read survive an affair and his needs, her needs to read her emotional needs. Join with wife for his needs, her needs.

Dating might be too soon with wife but ask her what she likes recreationally. Good way to break affair, go away from kids and have a good time - go on vacation or at least dating. Find the time to build a romantic relationship.

Find a fun date for 15 hour/week - not easy but necessary.

Recreational companionship - join her with what she likes. Add then add intimate conversations… deep and inviting.

Later hold hands and hug. Sex might take quite a while as process of recovery of the next few months.

Get rid of OM by gentle exposure to OMW (share dr Harley books - everybody deserves a great relationship) then be as attractive as possible. No kids exposure discussed… but you all argue do it too, right?

I should say to my wife: Not a lot of energy for you - just work with me long enough to get rid of the OM who is a threat to our family.

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