Like everyone else, here comes the shortest long summary I can muster.

I got married 15 years ago. During the first 2 years of marriage, my wife had three affairs. It was only after the third one that I came upon marriage builders and followed directions to end the affair properly. I went and exposed the affair to all colleagues, classmates, family of the cheater. The affair ended, by my wife then stated she didn't want to remain monogamous. I said that's fine, did a plan B, and cut her out completely of my life (and cut out financial support, housing, everything). After a few weeks she came back, painstakingly we worked it out, applied marriage builders concepts. I bought some marriage builder books, we worked through them, and we got very close. And then life happens and we got lazy, of course.

Now 15 years later, and with 9 and 5 year old kids, my wife went wayward again. At the school where she works, she started befriending another recently divorced teacher. At home, I started to notice hugging and kissing her was met with little emotion. I should have known something was up, but she gave me a bunch of reasons why she was upset with me, and said to give her some time and space. Four days ago, I find a text message on an unknown app with a guy. I check phone records, and sure enough, one number is calling her all the time. I confront her and she comes clean about what is happening. She says she never even kissed the guy, but admits she is in love with him. I find out he also lives two blocks from us.

Wild emotions of course, and my first thought was, I want a divorce, this is the fifth time, wtf. She is sorry and says she wants to remain married. I tell her no, I want a divorce. After pleading, we agree to take one week to think to ourselves before deciding on divorce or not.

The next few days are lots of back and forth, she is angry at me and wants to leave me, then she wants to do anything to work on our marriage. Its very exhausting. Today, I make a my own decision; I still do love my wife and especially with my kids, and I want to keep the family together, I need to try and work things out. So without her knowing, I go nuclear again. Call this guys parents (who are pastors, go figure!). Interestingly, his mom says she knows, but he had told her that my marriage was over. Call his ex wife. Text his children (aged 18,22,23). He coaches children's volleyball, and I go and text all the coaches I could find that work with him. Also neighbors of his. Tomorrow (Monday) will go expose to his principal and HR department. I also tell my wife's mom, dad, and sisters. And after reading the forums, I told my 9 year old, who starts crying uncontrollably for a long time. That is the most heartbreaking one, he is a very sensitive child.

My wife is absolutely pissed, blah blah blah. Asks why did I tell my son? I explain to her the reasons. She says, "Now for sure I'm going to divorce you". I take it in stride, cause lets get real, she was ready to do anything to work on our marriage just two days ago. She is a crack addict that got her cheater taken away from her. She starts going through every single bad thing I've done. I admit, I'm not perfect, but I'm a good dad, I try my best, and I have NEVER cheated on her. Anyways, it keeps going on, and my son of course is devastated. I tell her, now that it's in the open, she can go ahead and decide if she wants to divorce, but it will be completely her decision, and I tell her plainly that I still love her and I want to work on our marriage.

Which brings us to this moment. I feel happy exposing of course, and I don't know what will happen but I think it will work out. She blurts out that he doesn't want to contact her until she is officially divorced (finally, that [censored]). She is sulky, crying, and angry at me. I'm left taking care of the kids.

I don't remember what comes next. She is free to get the divorce papers and file unilaterally, but I doubt it. I'm a physician, so I am the main supporter. Sure we split everything, but she knows it will be hard. And now she has doubts of things working out with this cheater.

I know that if she want's to work on the marriage, I'm going require that she quit her job (since he works with her there). I'm going to require complete transparency (phone, emails, etc). What else? She's curled up with her phone, maybe talking things through with her sister, maybe talking to this guy. It still eats me up that she can contact him, but well, the affair is exposed. Wondering what else to do now.

I’m so sorry jah that you’re back again. I remember your story from last time.

Are you sure you want to work this out again after this many times? Have you thought about writing Dr. Harley?

Has she written a NC letter?

Have you read Serial Cheaters

Also have you refreshed on Exposure 101?

It has some steps on what to do. Have you spoke to a lawyer yet to at least find out what you can expect?

Thanks so much BrainHurts. I went through and read my story from 2012, and you and everyone here gave me such great advice. Just to catch up the last few days, after exposing this OM, nothing much changed. His parents who he lives with said they will push him to stop the relationship, but it continues. I remembered about the NC letter, and of course my wife is not even close to accept it. Currently, my wife wants to move out of the house, get her own apartment, and take turns with the kids, as if we are separated. It feels something like plan B, but not the same because last time I could completely cut off all contact with her with an intermediary. This time, our kids are involved so I don't think I can cut all contact.

Are you sure you want to work this out again after this many times? Absolutely want to work on it. I still love my wife and also because of my kids.

Has she written a NC letter? She is not ready

Have you read Serial Cheaters - Yes

Also have you refreshed on Exposure 101? - Yes

It has some steps on what to do. Have you spoke to a lawyer yet to at least find out what you can expect? - Have not spoken to a lawyer yet.

Have you thought about writing Dr. Harley?

The last time, I used these forums to basically learn to do the exposure, go through plan A, then plan B, and finally got her to come back to me. When she came back, our marriage was at the very lowest point, so in addition to forums I went to the paid MB counselors, which also helped tremendously. After multiple sessions, our marriage was strong again. I was thinking of doing the phone counseling again, but I don't know if it will be helpful in this situation.

Also, I was wondering if anyone felt it might be helpful to pay for the OM to do the counseling also? He's recently divorced. If it helps bring clarity and closure for the three of us I'd do it.

Please write Dr. Harley. I really think you need to share everything with Dr. Harley and get his feedback.

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the broadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will receive a call to explain the procedure.

I'm sorry to hear that this is happening again.

What do you hope to achieve by paying for OM to do the MB coaching? Do you think Steve Harley will talk him into leaving your wife alone?

I have never heard of a counsellor even trying to do that. I wouldn't have thought that coaching both sides of an affair (your side and his) would be ethical. I also highly doubt that he would enter into coaching in good faith, with the goal to save your marriage and lose the woman he wants. Why do you think he would have any interest in this?

I think you'd be throwing your money into a black hole as far as OM is concerned, if he would even agree to give it a try.

I second BrainHurts' suggestion to write to Dr Bill Harley - please do this immediately. He is the founder of the MB programme, and he will give you an assessment of whether your serially cheating wife can be faithful from now on until death. He won't encourage you to fight for a marriage that has no chance of success if he deduces that your wife is addicted to the thrill of affairs.

I have read very good things about Dr Harley's son Steve, with whom you coached before, but in your shoes, I would go straight to the source - Dr Bill Harley. He will give his advice for free, and he will speak to your wife if she agrees to it.

You've read the Serial Cheaters article. How do you think it applies to your wife? What kind of serial cheater is she?

HI all,

I agree with all of the above. Steve Harley is an excellent marriage coach. In my experience with him over a number of years off and on, his approach accelerates results, but it is critical that both spouses work the plan and the program. But if only one spouse then it is all about the committed spouse persuading the reluctant spouse to join the program. That is much harder and results can be much slower or in the end it does not work and you do Plan B or divorce depending on the details of your situation.

I think that is your situation now jah, right? It seems the affair is ongoing still and entrenching and strategies are different with ongoing affairs and different again with serial cheaters. Write Dr. Harley.

I'd had several sessions with Dr. Steve Harley. Where things stand is I am going to work towards the details of a plan B to protect my sanity. I still see my wife go out to be with this OM, and I'm left being at home, taking care of the kids. But for 5 days now, I can't sleep, I can't eat. I've lost 15 pounds in a week. I am barely able to focus at work. While I am still emotionally willing to work on our marriage, I need to be in Plan B.

It's a little difficult with my job and having kids though. I can have an intermediary take the kids between her and I, but I can't cut off all contact with her. What if my kid has a basketball game? What if the teacher asks to meet both of us? Regarding my job, I'm a pediatrician, and so I am on call a lot. Getting called in to the hospital at 3 in the morning, I can't leave the kids (again, 9 and 5 yo) at home. So either I do an emergency drop off my WW place, or have her come to my house. I'm going to have to think more carefully about the details.

She also had one session with Dr. Steve Harley, mostly just to get a indication of where things stand. He had to be careful to not be judgmental or push working on the marriage too much because of course that would push her away from continuing sessions, since she is still 'addicted'. She does not want to continue sessions which I respect but I still need it for sanity and to help plan things correctly. The one thing he planted in her brain was to ask her, "Would you agree that the best scenario would be for you to be in love with the man who is the father of your children." She agreed. And probably because she is addicted and doesn't want to accept that, she declined further sessions for now.

Several people have recommended that I write to Dr. Bill Harley - I'm not sure what to write. Do I summarize the whole situation and ask what he thinks I should do?

Yes you should be in Plan B with her still caring on the affair, but I would see what Dr. Harley tells you. Have you spoken to a lawyer and see what you’re looking at?

Yes I would write a summary with all the new information that you’re going through.

Others with more experience will know better, but I would suggest to explain where you are now mainly, tell him what you're doing, and ask for his advice and thoughts on what to do next (your strategy). He does need to know this is a repeat of a past situation (this is the 5th affair?). I would mention you tried counseling with Steve but you wife never played ball. This is important I think as to her mindset.

I suggest this because you have complexities with kids that make this harder. A partial plan B is no plan B and this can hinder your own return to well-being if you have to interact with her I would think. But Dr. Harley knows better than me of course on whether or not this matters or changes your strategy.

As you write, this is her 4th or 5th affair. That seems to meet the definition of a serial cheater. She has weak boundaries around men. Boundaries must be strengthened from her side or this will never work. And she must change jobs if the guy stays there and you probably must move. This is hard, hard, hard. And you need her to eventually be all in for this to work. Without this she will have a 6th affair at some point and you start this carousel again sooner or later.

Tonight while waking I had a wicked thought. I have been having a hard time finding out online the contacts and information of the OM to maximize exposure. I also live in a fairly small, tight knit community (everyone knows everyone). Why am I going through all the trouble?

I already have two things, his name, and his picture (off the internet).

Why can't I print out a sheet with his face enlarged and with the following words:
This man, XXX XXX, is having an affair with my wife, knowing full well that she is still married and has kids.
1) If you happen to know him, please try to convince him to end the affair and leave my family alone
2) If you are married, or know someone who is married, please warn your spouse, daughter, friend, or colleague that this man does not respect the sanctity of marriage and should not be trusted.

I then post this sheet on every street sign, lamppost, store, church I can find. I could buy a newspaper ad and plaster it on a full page! I could make thousands of copies and drop them out of a helicopter! (maybe not that last one, I'd be arrested for littering)

I see several advantages here. My reputation and my wife reputation is untouched. I think that would be the ultimate exposure and should end the affair. I feel like I'm doing a community service by warning others. And I looked up libel laws, and basically if you ruin someone's reputation with false information, then you can be sued. Every word in the statement is true.

Any thoughts? Has anyone ever tried this or thought of this? It just seems too easy. And obviously I hate this OM, I don't care if I ruin is life.

Jah, I am seeing that you often do not answer posters' questions or take up their suggestions, but come back with more questions of your own.

I wrote to you about MB coaching, asking what you hoped to achieve by paying for OM to do counselling. As you might have worked out, I can't see how that would be a useful strategy at all. It is not something that Dr H has ever recommended. You never answered me.

BrainHurts has advised you to write directly to Dr H, but you came back with questions about doing so - rather than just writing to him. I said that he might not recommend your fighting for this marriage, although I don't know for sure. Are you prepared to take his advice if that is what he says? Have you written yet?

Now you are here asking about plastering your neighbourhood with flyers. This kind of approach was warned against by a moderator on another thread. They said:


That thread is here: https://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php/topics/3015258/1.html. The moderator posted toward the end of the thread.

You need to be very strategic and follow Dr Harley's advice.

I'm sorry about not answering questions. I read the posts, and I agree it makes no sense at all to include the OM in counseling. As if that would help the situation in any way.

Yes, I have written to Dr. Harley, waiting for a response.

I read the entire thread that you posted about mass exposure. Its interesting that multiple posters gave detailed instructions on how to mass expose. Then the moderator advised against it. In my counseling sessions with Steve Harley he recommends 'surgical' targeted exposure, and not expose for the sake of it. For example, if I thought exposing to my parents would cause them to immediately and forever unconditionally reject my wife, then exposure might hurt the marriage in the long term.

I'm going to ask him in the next counseling session what he thinks of my idea of posting hundreds of flyers specifically about the OM and warning others about him (as I posted earlier). It would not have any information about me or my wife, so I don't think it would affect our future marital relationship. I don't see the downside. Alternatively, I thought I could use it as a warning for the OM to stay away from my wife and end the affair; I know that it is completely against the idea of exposure (you don't threaten, you do it without warning). But to put this flyer all across the town, to his school where he works, his church he attends, the volleyball center where he coaches, and every library, community center, store, etc. I think that can completely ruin him.

The whole concept of "don't threaten to expose, just do it!" is that if you threaten, you give your battle plans to the enemy. But even if he knows, what can he do to stop me? There's nobody to warn ahead of time. Unlike online, there's no accounts to delete, no posts to take down. There's just physical buildings all around town, and I can put the flyers up quickly and efficiency at any time of day. Sure he can go running around trying to take them down, but you can't get find them all, and the next morning at 3 AM I just put another round of 100 around town.

Sorry, and to answer a few more questions I noted in the thread:

No I have not contacted a lawyer. We are not at the divorce stage, and my wife actually told me she does not want to file. She begged me not to file unilaterally either. I'm just the backdoor option at this point.

Regarding what kind of serial cheater she is. I don't think she cheats for sex. I don't think she cheats as a game to 'win the trophy'. Dr. Steve Harley in my counseling sessions says he thinks she is a 'romantic' and cheats because she has an idealized vision of what a marriage is like. When our marriage does not completely meet that image, she looks for a fresh slate with another man, her mind thinking that 'this could be the one.' That's an issue that we will have to work on if we remain married.

Sorry, I have a super long letter I want to share. I'm sending my wife this letter detailing my thoughts on the affair. I hope it makes my wife realize why she should choose me. Will it help? We will see. Comments welcome.
=====

I am writing this letter because I want you to be able to read it carefully and thoughtfully, without interruption, and without any arguments as you read it.

In the counseling session, Dr. Harvey thinks that you are a ‘romantic’ kind of personality. You think of the idealized marriage. The marriage where they “lived happily ever after.". As a husband, I know I am not an ideal at all. I was frisky and romantic at the beginning, but then it drifted downwards as we got older, and less frequent. Instead of “smell your neck sensually” it became “hug from behind lovingly”. Like an 'old couple' as you said. Then I let our children, work demands, and household chores get in the way of spending time with you, such that I neglected you. And I have my issues with hiding things and with porn. You see my flaws and think to yourself, “This marriage is not good at all. I’m getting older and might have only a limited time to find the ‘right one’, and live in the dream life that I deserve.”

But despite my bad characteristics, I think I have much more good in me than bad. I believe I am more intelligent than most. As a physician, I have a profession that is caring and kind, that people respect and admire. And my profession has a salary that allows our family to not just get by, but have a better standard of living than most. I am a good father for my kids. I teach my kids well, both school and in life. I get involved as a coach. I don’t drink, I don’t smoke. I am fairly religious. I have never beat you or hurt you. I am not abusive. I cook well enough I can take over when you need. I do a good deal of housework. I play the guitar and ukulele well. I write poems and can be romantic when I put my mind to it. I think I’m fairly in good shape physically (although I admit there were years I was fat). My extended family is loving and supportive. I am funny and make you laugh. I am faithful to you and have never cheated on you with another. And my best characteristic of all? My farts don’t stink so much. (Well, that’s my opinion anyways)

So, you see me as your husband and think of our marriage, but you focus on the bad things, and you decide that it’s not ideal. Not perfect. There’s room for improvement, right? And you are getting older. You are not going to be able to attract other men forever, so you need to find someone, there must be somebody out there that is better for you. Someone that can provide that “live happily ever after”. That’s what I think is happening.

Now, lets look carefully at this OM guy. It will be hard for me to be objective (since I obviously hate him), and hard for you also to be objective (since you are in love with him), but lets try none the less.

What makes him good. He works in computers? Well, not a ‘caring and kind’ profession but still useful for society. He seems knowledgeable. Must be funny because I already saw him make you laugh. He seems quite romantic and flirtatious. I think probably religious. He is in good shape I’m sure you would say. (Though I bet I could beat him in armwrestling). He coaches, just like me.

Now lets look at the bad. I’m going to try and be objective here and stick to facts. First and most important of all, he doesn’t respect the sanctity of marriage. He does not, that’s a fact. You marry him, and you will never know if he will remain faithful, because he has broken the sanctity of marriage once already with his relationship with you. Of course he will say, “What I did with you was wrong. I would never do that again. I would be faithful to you forever.” But you take your chances. I read in the texts you had with him, and he said, and I quote: “If you see me acting “flirty” with someone else, I am not. That’s just how I interact. Exaggeration and I like to make other’s laugh. . I can smile and laugh with another girl . . . and you have nothing to worry about.” So good luck marrying someone who can smile and laugh with other girls, exaggerate and acting ‘flirty’, but remain faithful. Nothing to worry about when we have already established that marital boundaries mean nothing to him.

Is he a good father? Of course he will tell you he is. But it’s a fact that all four of his kids are in the mainland with the ex-wife. Why is that? Usually, the parent that is more financially stable or the better parent gets the kids. And I already remember in check ups that his daughter was afraid of being honest with him and hid things from him. I’m sure he will give you is side of the story on why the kids are up there and not with him. But you can’t just take his word. I mean, for God’s sake, he will potentially be the stepfather of our children! You need to make absolutely sure he is a good father. You know the best way to do that? Ask him for the phone number of his ex-wife. Then ask the ex wife, “OM might be the stepfather of my children. Tell me the good fatherly characteristics he has and also the bad.” Go find out why he really lost the kids in custody.

But you know what is another fact about him? He is not the TRUE father of your kids. He is not and will never be. So whether or not he is a good father for HIS kids, it doesn’t apply to how he is for YOUR kids. How do you know if 5 years from now he sits on the couch and says, “Go feed that one boy and go over the homework for the other, they aren’t my kids. I’m resting.” You must be thinking, I don’t think he would do that. But do you know 100%? Nope. So while you already know what kind of father I am, you can’t be sure for him. Worse than that, what if he physically abuses our kids? Here’s another fact, “Step children are at a heightened risk of experiencing physical abuse, with rates 40x higher than biological parents.” 40x! That’s 4000% higher, four thousand percent! Why? Because the kids not their kids. And I hate to break this to you, but you could move out and live with him, you could introduce our kids to him, see how he interacted with our kids, and even if things seemed great, you would never, ever know for sure if he would abuse our kids. Because abuse comes not during the ‘happy, put on a good show’ dating phase, but after the “we’ve been married for a few years now” phase. That’s when the abuse begins. Conversely, as a fact you know that I will always be the father of your children, and as such I will always love them and care for and teach them correctly because they are mine.

Some other facts. Im pretty sure I make more money than him, unless he has some big hidden moneymaking scheme. I’m able to afford two houses, while he lives with his parents and from what county records say, both of the houses are under his parents. He plays too much video games by his own confession.

And now the unknowns things about Joshua that will take years and years to discover. You don’t know much about his family. Don’t know 5 years from now he will help with household chores. You don’t know if he has any of the same problems I have: lying, porn, neglect. Of course he is going to say he doesn’t, and that he won’t neglect you, that he learned from his first marriage. Does that mean it won’t happen, 5 years from now when he is working hard, taking care of kids that aren’t his, playing video games, coaching volleyball . . . will he never neglect you? Who knows. What else - you don’t know if he is abusive. You don’t know if he has a hidden drinking or smoking problem he won’t admit. You don’t know who is more intelligent (although I would obviously think it’s me!).

So there you go. An honest look at your choices. OM vs me. Who to choose? Feel free to write more things about OM. I’m sure there are some good characteristics I don’t know about. Maybe he plays an instrument? Maybe he sings well? Whatever. But I think he fails at the most important characteristic, respecting the sanctity of marriage. And the other important characteristic, how he is as a father, you will never know for sure.

I would like to mention one last thing. I think I am also a “romantic” personality, but just in a different way. In my ideal marriage, the husband and wife stay married forever, rich or poor, sickness or health, good times and bad, till death to they part. That’s my ideal. You have so many good characteristics, so so many. I would not have chosen you as my partner if I didn’t think you had so many good characteristics. Including your beauty, and I find you beautiful just the way you are. But you also have bad characteristics as well (I won’t mention the bad ones or you are going to start hating me again!). But I accept all your flaws and try to work around them, try to find ways we can make things work, try to look for solutions. I remain faithful to you despite the flaws. I don’t think to myself, “I’m getting older, there must be somebody better for me and I can live a happier life!” No, I love you and only want you. Because you are my wife, and I will always love you and be faithful to you. But I will point out the one bad characteristic that you have, and that’s infidelity. You put me through the worst pain and suffering a human can ever bear. Anyone would say that I have every right to leave the marriage and start over. But I’m a romantic. I believe in marriage. I believe in “until death do us part”. I believe in forgiveness. And I forgive you for what you are doing to me. And it doesn’t matter what flaws you have, no matter how major, I still love you. And that’s why I still fight for our marriage. That’s why I will do whatever it takes to remain with you. That’s why I am ready and willing to bear all this pain and suffering, for potentially months or even years, because I’m a romantic and want to remain married to you. Because I love you. And willing to wait for you. And the only thing that could possibly end that is if you file for divorce unilaterally. Until then, I will never give up.

I think that would be a bad letter to send. It tries to educate your wife, which is something that Dr Harley says you should never do. It is also full of disrespectful judgements, which Dr Harley identifies as love busters. Committing love busters while you should be either in Plan A or Plan B - or indeed at any time while you are married - is the quickest way to turn your wife against you, more than she already is.

The love busters are basically telling your wife that you are a good man and she is flawed. She looks at things the wrong way, whereas you have a proper view about things. The letter says that you are a good man and she really has no grounds for turning against you. If you want to send her running for the hills, "bigging up" yourself (as we say in the UK) while putting down her feelings will confirm to her that you are not a man that she should return to; you disregard her feelings and tell her that she has nothing to be unhappy about. Don't you think she already knows that, as a physician, you are clever and highly educated, probably more than OM? Don't you think she already knows how much you earn and can support a good lifestyle, and that you don't drink or smoke and are religious? And yet, as of today, she wants to stay away from you and be with OM. Do you really think that telling her you are better than him will persuade her to change her mind?

The letter is longwinded and pompous - I'm sorry, but that's how I read it. i suspect that, to a wife in love with another man, it would be a gigantic turn off.

You need to SHOW your wife that you are the better man for as long as you are in Plan A, and if/when you go to Plan B, leave her to feel your loss, and realise why she should return to you.

You really need to make contact with Dr Harley and follow his advice before you shoot off in your own direction.

With the greatest of respect to Steve Harley, he is not Dr Harley, who founded the MB programme and devised all the plans. Steve has been known to alter Dr Harley's advice, especially on exposure, and I have heard Dr Harley on his radio show insisting that exposure be followed according to his plan, to the letter.

Steve Harley is not a Dr, as far as I am aware; he has a masters in psychology but not a PhD. His father holds a PhD. However, even if Steve did have one, he is not the creator of this programme and he does not run the radio show which day after day insists that those seeking Marriage Builders advice follow his - Dr Bill Harley's - advice as written.

Thanks for your advice, I really appreciate it. I haven't given the letter out yet; you don't think I can even modify it or use certain parts? I do think it says I'm a good man, but I also mention all my flaws. Im not a pompous person by nature, honest. I tell my son that humility is one of the greatest traits.

It just eats at me that when I read her texts, it is the OM that is continuously pointing out my flaws, big and small, over and over, while he is making himself out to be virtuous, loving saint. He says things like, "I hope your marriage still works out." "Im so sorry that you husband is hurting so much" "Do you want me to give you space so you can be with your husband". Absolute manipulation, and my wife is just being poisoned over and over. Don't I get to defend myself? When do I get to do that?

Thanks for clarifying at the end. Every time I see Dr. Harley I'm wondering if maybe you meant Steve. I got it now.

It's been 10 days now since DDay, and I'm down 18 pounds. I am weak but can't eat, I vomit half the time. I go for runs because of all this adrenaline in my veins while my tank is empty. Its starting to get a little better, my emotions don't flare up when I see my wife texting can calling him in the house. I try my best to show her that I am the better man, but it feels so helpless. For example, yesterday I watch the kids, wash the clothes, prepare a wonderful dinner for the family. She is just texting away. I call her to the table to eat with me and the kids, and she says she isn't ready. When she finally comes, she is on the phone the whole time, talks a little to the kids, then leaves. It feels like all for naught. And I can't call her out on not helping around the house because she becomes defensive and says, "Okay then, let me to some." So I stop mentioning it.

The reason she is texting so much is the OM left to go on a volleyball trip to Japan. So not physically here for about 14 days. Meanwhile, it's spring break so I get to spend time with just my wife and two kids.

Steve always says surgical exposure, at least he did to me, and what he means is be strategic about it. Being strategic in your thinking and actions is what he is all about. Being guided by your intelligence and not your emotions. Plastering flyers is the opposite of surgical and strategic, it is like carpet bombing or some mass e-mail spam. It will be perceived by your wife and everyone you know as vindictive and unhinged, although you will feel really good about it probably. It will have the opposite impact than you want, and drive them closer together, or make your wife hate you, which will make your Plan A harder.

Are you focused on your Plan A, since you do not want a divorce and are not in Plan B? What are you doing to help you wife fall in love with you again? What actions? Do you have a daily and weekly Plan A plan with bullet point actions? You may not be able to get her to open up while she is in an active affair, but you can still focus on family and yourself and invite her all the time to your family outings. And if the OM is gone this is your Plan A golden opportunity for 2 weeks! Take vacation and do stuff together if she is willing, with kids, without kids, just take steady actions to persuade her you are the best man for her, not with punishments and teaching her why she is wrong, but with positive loving family building actions. And see where that takes you with her.

In the end your goal is to show her you are changing, you are trying to become the man she thinks she needs, not the man you think she needs. If she thinks you are judging her or trying to shame her, you are going backwards and OM is winning her. It is not your fault you are in this situation, it is his her weak boundaries around other men, but she was not in love with you when this started. If she is an idealized romantic then she wants to be in love with you and without that she is struggling, lost, and open to someone else meeting her emotional needs. That is your goal then, persuade her to fall in love with you by your Plan A actions.

I want to thank everyone here again, so very much. It's been 11 days since D day, and I am a very emotional person. Slowly by slowly my mind is becoming clearer, I can think better. Last night is the first night I actually got 8 hrs of sleep! I think that helps. Yesterday at work, I was sitting there during child checkups and my mind was going blank several times an hour. Mid sentence. Parents had a confused look on their face, it was a little funny actually. I think it's the lack of sleep.

Things are improving. Last night our family went out for dinner. It was irritating to see her on her phone most of the time, she kept hiding her phone under the table while texting. But I also had some good conversations with my wife. There was a time in fact she reached out and grabbed my hand. I held it there with her for about 20 seconds, were just there in silence holding hands. But I couldn't bear to look her in the eyes, and after 20 seconds with tears welling up in my eyes, I stood up to excuse myself. I'm a little pathetic, huh? I think I need a little more time before I can be in that situation and be able to look back up at her and lock eyes.

Then on the way home, my 9 year old asked us to tell stories about our life. Again, he knows about the OM, and I never told him to do that, it's a game we often play taking turns telling stories and then he would judge who won. We tell 3 stories each, and I won the first two rounds because my wife wouldn't even participate: "I can't remember any stories." But after a few of my stories and laughter, by wife brought out her own story, about how my 5 year old when he was younger, would keep calling a firetruck, "F**K* because he couldn't pronounce it correctly. We laughed happily.

This morning, I made pancakes for the family, while she is texting away. Her Vietnamese dad came out (he lives with us), more calm and normal. He knows what is happening. They had a cordial conversation in Vietnamese, and after I asked her, "Is he still making you feel bad?" She said no. My WW's dad has been saying cruel things to her all week. I told my wife how I sat her dad down several times, and with Google translate told him to stop putting her down. When her dad said to me, "WW is not my daughter." I told him that she will always be her daughter and he needs to love he no matter what. So I told my wife that, and that hopefully it is starting to help. My wife was touched and thanked me, said I am so generous and kind.

I think this first 10 days have been a whirlwind, but now things are becoming clear. This situation is making me a little bipolar really, so angry one moment and then excited (about my plan) the next. Which makes it hard, because one day I want divorce, next day work on plan A, next day I can't imagine bearing all this pain and want plan B, and so forth.

I come up with this "Drop posters of OM all over the town" plan because I want to hurt this man back, because I want a quick solution, because I want to have some control back, and I want to 'force' the situation. Dumb idea.

These ideas are ways for me to take a 'shortcut'. I know the pain that is awaiting me. But I'm thinking clearer now.

I wrote that long letter in the hopes of convincing my wife why she is wrong, maybe having her see the light, lift the fog a little. Again, fanciful thinking, I'm such an idiot. But I'm saving that letter to help remind myself why I am going to win this battle. But is there anything in the letter you think worth discussing with my wife? She rationalized her infidelity because of the bad things I've done, can I ask her how she rationalizes how it's right that this man is dating a married women? Or bring up statistics of abuse in stepparents? Or ask her, why is it that custody of his four children went to the ex-wife and not him? Maybe bringing these points up is pointless, she is still in the 'in love' phase. I suppose maybe these things are better bringing up if at some point she comes to me and says she is confused, loves both of us, doesn't know what to do.

Until then, I have a clear plan now:
1) I am clearly in Plan A. I can handle it now, being calm and caring and loving while watching her spend time and text this OM. I couldn't do it before, but I can now.
1) The OM is in Japan for 2 weeks. It's spring break, I have my golden opportunity! I took off the whole week from work, taking the family to Oahu for a family trip. Part of the reasons my wife is meeting a off island surgeon to possibly have surgery on her knee. She already asked if I will help pay for the surgery even if divorced, and I said yes. So . . . the plan is for me to show her my love and care the whole trip, show her how happy the family is together, show support with her surgery.
2) Get over my emotions. She held my hand, and I couldn't look in her eyes and teared up. How can I build connection if I can't get over that? I must look so pathetic, although I think it does make her feel bad and realize the pain I am in.
3) I have another opportunity at more exposure. The first time I did the exposure, I had limited info (she deleted her text messages, I only have the phone log to go off of). When I notified the OM parents (who are pastors at the Mormon church), they said that their understanding is the marriage is over and he is having no physical relationship with my WW. Well, I have text messages now of the physicality, and we are definitely not divorced. I also just found out where his church is located. I plan to send a new exposure letter to the church leaders and the OM parents. Do you think that's a good idea? I'm drafting a letter now.

And for days, I have been fixated on getting revenge on this OM. Things so unimaginably horrible I can't share on this forum, worse than the most unimaginable. But you know what my comfort is now? My revenge will be when at some point, and I know this is going to happen, he is going to ask her, "Why don't you just get divorced already so we can be together." And she will say, "I still have feelings for my husband and I'm not ready to divorce." That is the day I get some revenge and get to break his heart, even just a bit.

Here is the letter I plan to send to the OM parents. OM's dad is a bishop, mom writes columns in their church magazine. I also plan so send a similar letter to the leaders at the church he attends. Comments are definitely welcome. Thank you for all your help!

====
Dear OM's parents,
My name is ------, MD. You might remember me as the pediatrician of your grandchildren, as I have cared for all four the them. As you already know, your son, ------, is having an affair with my wife. I am not sure what he has told you, but if I understand correctly you think that my marriage is almost over and that there is nothing physical happening. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

I included several text messages between him and my wife, and as you can see, they are absolutely carrying on a physical relationship. As for my marriage, you can decide. My wife has plainly told me she still loves me. We still have conversations and laugh. We still pray before meals and at bedtime with my children. We watch movies together. We take our kids to the park together, do activities together, have dinner together. She has asked me NOT to file any divorce paperwork unilaterally.

I have told my children what is happening and it is devastating for them. My 9 year old broke down and cried for hours. Things have settled down, but now when my older son sees my wife texting, he will ask her, “Are you texting the other man?” At night when I hug my 5 year old to sleep, and he asks, “Why isn’t mommy here to sleep with me?” I make up a lie when I know she is actually at your sons house late at night. How do I know? I know where you live (across the Methodist Church) and I can track my wife’s location on my phone.

I know you are both strong followers of the LDS Church or Mormon church. I know that the LDS doctrine is that the family is sacred and the most important social unit in time and eternity. Your son is destroying my family. He is hurting not just me, but my children. And despite this, I find it in my heart to forgive him. I know he recently had a divorce. I know his children are in the US Mainland. I imagine he has suffered and feels lonely. But courting a married women with children is not right.

I am also Christian, a Roman Catholic. I was an alter server and student at Saint Theresa School, and both my children also go there. We go to church on Sundays. My wife and I taught bible classes there years ago. So I absolutely believe that Jesus will also forgive your son for what he is doing. But your son cannot begin to ask for forgiveness until he stops what he is doing.

The point of this letter is to let you know the truth of what is happening. I want to remain married and work on my marriage. I am not a perfect person, but I am willing to make the changes needed to be the husband my wife deserves. But I cannot begin to heal my marriage with your son in the picture.

I do not expect you to stop your son’s behavior, as he is a grown man and an adult, and his choices are his to make. But I humbly ask that you voice your disapproval, let him know you do not agree with what he is doing. That is enough for me. And know that silence on the matter does not help me at all. Remaining silent is just another way of saying that you agree with what is going on.

Feel free to contact me by phone, -----. Or if you want to meet personally I am happy to. Thank you for taking the time to hear my side of the story.

Sincerely,




-----, MD

I'm glad you are planning to send a letter to OM's parents and other contacts. However, I think your letter is far too long and very overblown. People will miss the important message that you are trying to convey if you give more details other than the basic facts and the request for their help.

Your message talks about how your wife's words show that she still loves you, describes how your son is broken hearted, and talks about the importance of faith in their lives and yours. None of this is necessary. The letter has the air of desperation when it needs to show strength.

I have searched the notable posts here and cannot find a template letter to OM's parents. However, I think the letter below shows how short and to the point the communication needs to be. You will need to change a few sentences so that they speak to the parents of OM rather than the friends of WS, but you should not add back in all your attempts at pulling at their heart strings.

Have you heard back from Dr. Harley?

I agree with SugarCane. I think the letter to OM’s parents is too long. I would make it shorter like the example, but give them the information about being their grandkid’s pediatrician.

Have you heard back from Dr. Harley?

I don't think you should tell your father-in-law how to feel about his daughter. You can't tell someone to love someone else. I'm sure he loves her anyway, and that you are merely interpreting his grief and disappointment as not loving her. I don't think you should interpret his feelings or tell him what to do. And surely the point of exposure is that those people close to your wife, who might have influence over her, should shine a light on her destructive behaviour and tell her to stop it.

If he is being verbally abusive you should intervene, but if he is telling her she is not his daughter - by which I take it he means he does not recognise the person she has become, and he is disappointed - I cannot see how that is a bad thing. The bad thing is her behaviour, not his feelings about it.

In another post, you said you'd told your son that she will always be his mother and he should love her regardless of what she has done. Again, I think that the "love" part is entirely the wrong thing to say to your child. If he finds her reprehensible because she is in the process of breaking up his family and she is causing him, her son, great distress, he does not have to love her. You cannot tell someone, not even a child, to love someone else.

We have a poster here, Markos, whose mother chose someone over his father. Markos was just into double figures, I believe, and he would have nothing to do with his mother. He was court-ordered to attend sessions with his mother and a counsellor with the aim of getting him to accept her and get over the affair. He was dragged along, but refused to participate, and in the end the court gave up making him go. He does not contact his mother and ignores her when she tries to contact him. He and his father and stepmother are good friends, and he is happily married. His wife, Prisca, posts here.

My point is that if people do bad things, the innocent people that they affect are under no obligation to either love or respect them.

You might be hoping that by not telling your wife how badly she is behaving, even if/after she leaves you, she will see you as a stand-up man. I think it's more likely that she will believe you accept that she is happy, and happiness is all you want for her. I have no idea why you would condone her affair in this way. Plan A is about showing her you are the better man, and showing her what your marriage could be. It is not about showing her that you, her son and her father will love her no matter how she destroys your family.

Given what I've said above, you can probably work out that I have no idea why you'd say such a thing and show yourself to be such a doormat. If you divorce and she continues her affair, you should have nothing more to do with her. To pay for her surgery when she is with another man would be to condone the affair to the nth degree. Is that really what you want to do? Do you think that will bring her back to you? - because I don't.

Try not to focus on getting revenge on him. Your wife has had several affairs and seems hell-bent on pursuing this one. I'm not saying you need to get revenge on her, but I do think you need to focus on her and her seeming lack of care for you. If her attitude to affairs does not change, you are in for more pain.

The statement that you hope she will make someday down the line probably won't break his heart, not even a bit. He is a player and will probably be glad not to have to put his money where his mouth currently is.

Given that you were mixed up about who is Steve Harley and who is Dr Bill Harley, to whom did you actually write, and to what address did you send it?

Answering a few questions here:
1) My father in law is extremely verbally abusive to the nth degree. He looks for the most degrading, adverse, disgusting things he can think of and then says them over and over and over. I told him to tone things down; he is not someone that would help my situation
2) I agree that you cannot force someone to love someone else. However, if we did divorce, my relationship with my WW will turn into two parents taking turns caring for our two boys. She might suck at fidelity, but I must admit she is a good mother to our kids (we both are good parents). The way I phrase it for my son is that he might hate what she is doing, but she will always be his mom and should love her. However, he should express his feelings however he sees fit. If he is angry, sad, hurt, etc, he should let be known. I don't want to guide him along on what to feel or say, but just be honest.
3) Regarding paying for her surgery; I think if we did divorce, I'd just say to take the money out of the alimony to pay for it. I would't actually 'pay' for it. The problem I'm having is this OM is extremely manipulative. She sees him as a most upstanding guy in the world. He will say things like, "It must be tough, I really hope your marriage works out.", " Your husband must be hurting so much. I know what that feels like. I hope he is okay.", "If you want time away from me to work on your marriage, I'll respect your privacy and leave you alone." All lies, and she eats it up. How can I plan A against that? When I mention that I would pay for the surgery because she is still the mother of my children no matter what, she cries genuinely, not smirks greedily like she just found the perfect doormat. But I understand what you are trying to say about being careful what I say that expresses I condone the affair.
4) I emailed mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. Is that correct? It was the link mentioned earlier. I haven't heard back; I check email a few times a week. Doesn't he get tons of emails? Should I send another email to confirm he got it? Or is there someone to call?

Currently I'm in plan A and it's moving along. I am talking to my WW a whole lot more, sometimes just day to day and trivial things. But I make her laugh more frequently in conversation. I cut out angry outbursts, disrespectful judgments, etc. Taking care of the kids, and as a family when we eat together and play together it's very enjoyable. She mentioned how she caught herself saying several times, "I miss my [Jah]" which is her personal name for me.

However, even though things are pleasant and somewhat happy, I let her know how absolutely hurtful it is when I catch her texting the OM, calling him, or leaving the house to see him. I tell her that her actions and the affair is killing me, and she sees it in my weight loss and emotions. And when she come to try and console me with a hug, I tell her thank you but I don't need a hug, I need the affair to end. And she feels sad about hurting me and guilty at the same time.

I already know where this is heading. She will not be able to choose between the both of us, will be too afraid to hurt one if she chooses the other. So we are heading to plan B eventually, complete separation. Im not going to "win her over" with plan A. The reason for plan B is not for my sanity, but to force her to make a decision; she cannot have a cake and eat it too, have the best of both worlds. But she needs to at least remember how comforting and happy her home was before separation.

Yes mbradio@marriagebuilders.com is the correct email. Yes I would try reaching out again because their emails are notorious for going to spam.

Please let us know what he says when you hear back.

I have revised my letter based on taking to Steve Harley and also the advice given here:
1) I shortened it significantly so it is not rambling and overblown. I also put the purpose of the letter in the first line.
2) I cut out the part about what mormons believe in and my own faith. It's too preachy.
3) Instead of asking them to voice their disapproval with the affair, I took the advice of Steve Harley to 'ask for advice and guidance'. The reason being is that these are the parents of the OM. To mention what is happening is like an attack on their son, and to ask them to take my side over their own son is unlikely to happen, no matter how bad the OM behavior is. However, when I ask for advice and guidance, it is less like an attack and more like I'm being genuine and humble in asking for help. Now, it doesn't matter what advice they give. They might say, "Pray on it." or "Leave our son alone" or "You should get counseling with your wife and kids". I don't have to follow their advice and should't get caught up on it. But by asking for advice, they are more likely to listen to my side of the story. They might try to intervene. They might voice their disapproval to their son. And this makes a big difference, because the OM is living alone in the basement of his parents house and possibly dependent on them (the OM's ex-wife and 4 kids are in California). If anything, it makes the affair more difficult when the parents know what is actually happening.
4) I decided to include several very recent pictures of my family for several reasons: to show we are still a strong family, to put a face to the story, to help remind the OM's dad what I look like as I've met him as the pediatrician of his grandchildren (the OM's children) before.

For any advice you might have, thanks in advance.
=======

Dear OM's parents,
My name is ------, MD. The purpose of this letter is twofold: to update you on the truth on your son's affair with my wife and to ask for your guidance and advice on what to do. I am not sure what OM has told you, but if I understand correctly you think that my marriage is almost over and that there is nothing physical happening. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

About a week ago I found out that their relationship is not platonic but very physical. I have included texts I found on my wife's phone with your son OM as proof. Knowing this has caused my health and sanity to decline precipitously. I find it hard to sleep more than a few hours a night, I've lost 15 pounds in a week, and at work my mind goes blank, sometimes mid sentence. It is also affecting my two boys, aged 9 and 5, who know exactly what is going on. It is not only devastating for them them emotionally but starting to affect their behavior and performance at school.

As for the health of my marriage and strength of my family, you can decide for yourself. I included several pictures from our recent trip together on March 18, 2024. If I look familiar to you, it's because I cared for all of Josh's children as their pediatrician. As for my family, we still pray before meals and at bedtime together. The four of us still sleep together in the same bed. We take them to the park and play boardgames at night. My wife has plainly told me that she still loves me and cares for me. We still have conversations and laugh. And she is heartbroken when she sees me breaking down. She has also asked me NOT file any divorce paperwork unilaterally, and frankly I have no intention of doing so.

I admit I am not a perfect person. There are issues that I need to work on to be a better husband and father. But I am absolutely willing to make those changes, to do whatever it takes to become the man that my wife deserves. I love my wife and will never give up, but I cannot begin to heal my marriage and save my family while your son is in the picture.

Thank you for taking the time to listen to my side of the story. I humbly ask for your guidance and advice on what you think I should do. You can contact me by text or phone at ------. Or if you prefer, I would be happy to meet you in person.

Sincerely,

jah, your situation was discussed on the MB radio program on the Friday show on March 22, between minutes 24-39 of the hour show. The show will remain to play until the next show next week.

On the show, Dr. Harley discussed your plan A strategy as viable and also discussed plan B as viable, and emphasized they are separate strategies and not to mix them. He also discussed your public flyer idea and found this not a good idea.

He also discussed how your wife has poor boundaries around her love bank to other men and it is easy for her to fall in love. He said she has to really get onboard for this to work and she has to want to strengthen her boundaries around men.

Please listen and let us know what you think and if Dr. Harley gave you other advice not on the show.

Thank you Blackhawk! I appreciate this.

Yes, thank you BlackHawk (and everyone else). I am going to listen to it now and let you know what I think. I'm at least happy that it sounds like my situation is viable and that with the proper boundaries my marriage might be worth saving.

Just to add another new development; I went ahead and sent the updated exposure letter to the OM parents. I sent it by UPS, by regular mail, and went to the OM house in person to tape it to the gate (I didn't want to take any chances that the OM might confiscate the letters before the parents got them).

At the house, to my surprise not only are the OM and his parents on vacation to Japan, but house sitting was the OM sister in law, married to the OM younger brother, who is in the marines. I was also the pediatrician to their kids. I explained the situation. and why I was there. I didn't have time to properly explain everything though (she was in a rush), and so I'm going to get a new exposure letter for them specifically. A younger brother (esp marines) would be a great asset.

What did you think of what Dr. Harley said? Have you had anymore contact with Dr. Harley on your situation?

I thought it was very helpful; I listened to the segment 5-6x to let it soak in.

Some of it was educational to other readers; it talked about how the spouse that is cheated on has the right to divorce. About what plan A and B is about, and how plan A while exposing could work as a strategy. And a summary of my situation.

He of course did not recommend the 'mass flyer exposure' that I wanted to do. But he said that there are strategies to compete with the OM, but mass exposure is not one that is recommended. So I was wondering exactly what are other strategies to 'compete with the OM'. Or it is the basic things like: targeted exposure, meet wife's emotional needs, maintain health, etc.

He doesn't describe my wife specifically as a serial cheater, but as someone who falls in love too easily. My thought is that she has a very low love bank threshold in which she crosses into falling in love. He says that you can put barriers into place to deter it, but ultimately it's the spouse who needs to realize their weakness (to fall in love easily) and to avoid it. There's no 'plan' to perfectly prevent it. So to answer the question on if my marriage is worth saving, it's more of an, "It can be worth saving, but there's no perfect plan to guarantee ANOTHER affair might happen."

I haven't posted for a few days because I think my wife and possibly the OM is reading my posts. 12 years ago, my wife and I did the marriage builders program, so she knows. A few days ago, my wife confronted me about my plan to put up posters. Although I gave that idea up long ago, I'm not sure if she got the information off my computer, phone, or this forum. I had already changed my computer and phone passwords, but you never know.

So now unfortunately I cannot continue posting knowing that they might be reading this. I'm not sure what to do. I've gotten a lot of great advice here, it prevented me from doing a lot of stupid things. I still get some guidance from Steve Harley counseling sessions, but they are only once a week or less. Could I message moderators directly? I have no idea what to do.

Have you asked your wife why she is asking you about putting up posters - about where she got that idea from? If you haven't asked, is it because you are afraid of upsetting her? In Plan A you are not supposed to upset your wife, but this does not mean you cannot ask her a question about why she says something.

You are probably correct about her reading here, and if that's the case, people are unlikely to post giving you specific advice. I will limit myself to saying that I have never thought, since you started this thread, that your wife is even considering ending the affair. On that note, are you aware that Dr Harley has said that Plan A only works to end the affair in about 5% of cases? In the rest of cases, it becomes necessary for the husband to leave the home and go into Plan B. Plan B allows the affair to run its course and fall apart. When that happens, the good work done in Plan A encourages the wife to see her husband as worth returning to. Having had a quick read of your last thread, this seems to be what happened when you were here before. I think that Plan B will have to happen again. When to go into it is a matter of how well you are feeling in Plan A.

As I believe she is reading here, I will say that I don't think the affair will end by your showing loving actions towards your wife. I think she will stay with you and reap the benefits of a good income and a caring father for her kids, but when OM is in a position to support her (which he might not be right now), she will file for divorce. She has asked you not to file for divorce because she does not want to become reliant on OM before she is ready - not because she is conflicted by her love for you. I'm sorry to say that I don't believe she has any romantic love for you. I think she pretends to have that when necessary (crying etc), so that she can pull on your heart strings and get her own way, knowing that you are weak for her (sorry again).

In your shoes, I would write to Dr Harley again TODAY, asking him for his opinion on what I've just written. While you're at it, ask him for his advice on moving home, should the affair ever end and OM still be nearby. I heard on your radio show that you are unwilling to move because yours and the kids' lives are embedded where you are. Ask Dr Harley about your prospects of recovery if you and OM do not move.

If you come back, please answer this:


How did it go from 3 affairs, which we knew about from your first thread here in 2012...

...to 5 affairs?

When did the 4th happen? How old were your kids then?

Who was he? (Not his name; his connection to her.)

How did you discover it?

How did it proceed? Did it last long? Did either of you ever move out?

How did it end?

Thank you SugarCane, I can see you are very detailed and looking through all my texts carefully. It was not technically a 4th affair. This one happened before we were married. When we were engaged, separated 6000 miles (she was in SE Asia, I was in the US), she had an emotional relationship with a man. By the time my wife came over to be with me to be married, she had mostly broken it off, but I discovered that she was still contacting him on and off the first year after we were married. She broke it off shortly after I discovered it. So does that count? I know in hindsight I should have just left her then, but wouldn't life be great if we had hindsight? I like to joke that the greatest superpower a hero could have his hindsight.

Also, those first 3 affairs in the first 2 years of marriage, they were all back to back. As in they all happened within a 1 month block at the end of 2 years of marriage, after which I found marriage builders. I don't know if that counts for anything, but as a pediatrician, when a parent says, "My child vomited 5 times!" and I find out they vomited 5x in a 2 minute period, I count that as one episode.


Actually, I confirmed she was looking at marriagebuilders by looking at her browsing history; she had looked up marriage builders forums once about two weeks ago. Seems like she's not checking anymore, but who knows?


I do think plan B will have to happen. It's hard to be in plan A, because people are starting to find out about the affair, and my wife is pissed at me when it happens. When they come to me asking what is going on, I have a very specific answer: "My wife is having an affair with (OM name), and he knows that she is married with two children. The affair is killing me and devastating to my children, who knows what is going on. However, I have decided to remain faithful, wait it out, and fight for my marriage and my family." My wife is pissed when she finds out I tell people this, she wanted me to say, "We are separated" and leave it at that. Of course not. She tells me I'm ruining her and OM reputation, and I say I am not, they are the ones ruining their reputation, they can end it at any time, and I'm just speaking the truth of what is happening.

She is starting to have that far away look in her eyes when spending time with me and my family. I know that look; it's the look of, "How can I be with this OM and go out when it will ruin my reputation?" There is one other reason she might have this look, it's because recently I found out that this is not the first married woman this guy has targeted. At the school, there was another married female worker that had to quit because the OM and her were having a relationship. I confronted my wife about this, and she said she knew already, he told her. I'm sure he spun it own story, as in "She was flirting with me, I didn't do anything!" I wish I could get more details, but unfortunately the investigation is private and all I got to go on is rumors. I told her that she is the second married woman he is pursing, and she won't be the last. He doesn't value marriage and is not marriage material. She never tried to defend him when I said that.

But plan A is working a bit. We watched a movie together. I massaged her sore knee. We had a fun session at the table telling jokes with each other and the kids. But these moments are very far and few. She is still texting and calling and going out to be with this OM all the time. She is looking for a place to be separated, I refuse to help her based on the principle of I would be helping the affair, but I cannot wait for plan B to start. Now, you might think, just kick her out already and let her figure it out herself! Well, we are still married, our finances are still tied. She doesn't want to move into the OM house. She wants to see what separation is like. And she still wants to have her time with the kids. So kicking her out to be homeless isn't good, and if I did just kick her out she would have to stay at a hotel or something and spend 5000+ dollars a month while looking for a more permanent place. Plus, wouldn't that be the worst thing to do, after all my work making her remember the good things about me in plan A, to kick her out and say, "Get lost already!"

He will never be able to support her like I do, sorry but that's the fact. Unless he suddenly finds a job that pays 4x what it pays now; he's a teacher, so no chance. You are right, she has no romantic love for me, she even told me that straight, saying she has no romantic love for me but still loves me like a brother or a very good friend. And I tell her I still have romantic love for her, but the affair is killing me and its fading day by day. And her misguided 'romantic love' for this other guy is more like 'romantic lust'.

When I cry or breakdown in front of her, I don't think she is pulling at my heartstrings. She is genuinely sorry for hurting me. Sometimes she cries along with me. At first she apologized often, but now she doesn't apologize much, because every time she apologizes, I tell her, "You don't get to apologize. I'm hurting because of you. Only you can end it." But the fact is that her feelings of guilt right now is much, much less than her 'romantic lust' for this OM. So she shrugs it off.

I have more to write, but I'm hesitant again because she or the OM might be reading this. I am lucky to have Steve Harley to help guide me though; we talk once a week or so. I'm going to hold off writing to Dr. Harley for now, because I hope I answered your questions. If it progresses further where we start working things out, I'll ask the question about the chances of recovery if we don't move homes.

Thanks again for everyones help, and especially you SugarCane; I see how detailed you are in reading my responses and following along. If you wanted to give me specific advice that might be bad if read by my WW, are you allowed to message me directly? Just wondering.

Hello jah,

I do not remember if you exposed to the workplace, but you mentioned in your last message that the OM had an affair with another teacher at the school, and the teacher had to quit. Is the school HR aware of the situation with the OM and your wife? This is the school where your wife works? Even if not, is HR aware?

I think you probably see how this could help you if they were made aware and they were forced again to take action. If I was an HR Manager or the Board of Directors' HR Committee Chair, I would look very negatively at a teacher involved in 2 affairs with fellow married teachers. That is a pattern of negative behavior and the school cannot condone it. It sends the wrong message to parents and the community.

And if the school HR admin does not tale action, I would go to the corporate governance body and complain loudly or to the local school board, etc.

Yes I took your advice and notified the superintendent, basically the head of all the schools here. He is a good friend of my dad actually; he was the principal at my dads school for 8 years. I made sure the point of it was not my affair, but the fact that the OM has targeted two married women at the workplace, and that it sends the wrong message to the parents and community. I don't know where this will go, probably just a more stern warning, or maybe a kind of probation, but I'm not holding out hope they will fire him or anything.

Currently I am in plan A, but it is obvious my wife only wants cake eating. All my exposures and actions so far is not preventing this OM from leaving my wife. So I am in the planning stages of plan B. There are lots of details I need to work out, and I will put them here once I have given it a good thought. This is much more complicated than the last time I did plan B, as we have more finances to discuss and also the kids, and my wife is in fantasyland, but hopefully we can come to an agreement.

I assumed when you answered "yes" to reading Exposure 101 that you had learned from it and would be implementing its suggestions. I should have realised when you suggested plastering the neighbourhood with flyers that you had read it and disregarded it.

One of the key recommendations it makes is that if this is a workplace affair - which it is - if your spouse does not agree to leave the job with immediate effect, you should swiftly inform the employers that the other person is having an affair with your spouse. There are specific suggestions for informing HR and demanding a response.

Informing the superintendent of the whole district is not good enough. In the case of a school affair, you need to target the head teacher, HR, and the Board of Governors - and you need to ask what they intend to do about the situation.

Posters are specifically warned about inadequate exposures that only serve to tick off the spouse, little by little, each time you expose a little more.

With your wife working with this man and living close to him, and having your financial and parental support, it's no surprise that the affair will not end. You seem to be reluctant to take decisive action because you hope she'll grow to love you and then she'll leave him. That won't happen if the job situation and the living situation do not change.

As well as the advice in the Exposure 101 thread, here is Dr Harley's advice on exposing a workplace affair:

"While I unhesitatingly recommend immediately exposing the affair to friends, family, clergy, children and the other person's spouse, I'm not so quick to suggest immediately exposing it to an employer. That's because such exposure could have unintended legal and economic consequences. For example, the affair might constitute grounds for a sexual harassment claim by the unfaithful spouse's lover. Or it might trigger the outright firing of the spouse, making it far more difficult for them to find another job.

If the unfaithful spouse has separated, in spite of my reservations I recommend immediate exposure to the employer. But if the unfaithful spouse has not separated, I advise the betrayed spouse to warn the unfaithful spouse that if he or she works there one more day, the affair will be exposed to the employer. That gives him or her an opportunity to use vacation time to look for another job and make a graceful exit. If a new job is not found by the time the vacation time is over, I recommend applying for an unpaid leave of absence or a resignation to avoid returning to work.

If the unfaithful spouse becomes angry upon hearing the warning, making it clear that there will be no resignation from the job, I encourage the betrayed spouse to expose the affair to the employer immediately."

According to this advice, you need to ask your wife to leave her job (which I don't know that you have done yet). You need simultaneously to get her agreement to moving far away - letting out your house this very week, if need be. If she refuses to leave her job, expose to the relevant people, all at once and with them all copied in, the day after her refusal.

As for childcare in Plan B, I know single parents here in the UK who hire a live-in Au Pair to cover after school care and on-call care. You need to find a trustworthy person with good references, but being an on-call doctor does not make child care impossible.

Dr Harley advises the husband to move out when he is ready to go to Plan B, and not to "kick out" the wife. You should see a lawyer first about your legal rights and responsibilities. For example, how to stop OM from moving in.

Full article here: When should an affair be exposed

I know I haven't written for awhile; part of the reason is that I'm not sure if they (wife and OM) are reading this, and I have also been having counseling with Dr. Steve Harley to guide me. I did expose to the principal, my wife direct supervisor, the superintendent, and HR. There is no school board. All they did was have a talk with him and her, that's it. Unions . . . they protect the teachers very well.

Currently my wife is basically cake eating, and I need to get her out of the house. It is too painful to hear her talking and laughing with this OM, leaving at night to go to his house, spending so much time with him. Meanwhile I'm doing the great majority of taking care of the kids, I'm cooking, washing, cleaning. She does hardly anything. She started getting counseling via "better help" at the suggestion of her doctor; she states it is helping her. If anything, its good because they tell her to focus on her kids, which she has been doing a little better job of now. Recently she tells me she is also more torn than ever, does't know if she wants to be with me or this OM. At times she wants to hug me, she asks to do activities with me and the kids as a family. I hear her arguing with the OM occasionally now. And two or three times she has these moments where she is out of the fog, she apologizes for not being strong enough, for not realizing the relationship that was building with the OM was wrong. But these moments are very few and far between. The next moment she is back in his arms and at his house.

I tell you, this OM is no good. Last year he went after another married woman at the school where my wife works. He went after my wife knowing she is married with kids. He is contacting this 25 year old lady from the Philippines for the past 5 years, meaning it started when he was still married. (OM divorced in 2021). He sent 900$ to her recently, and told my wife its just a friend an nothing is going on. The "better help" counselor tried to get my wife to realize that it's crazy to think she is 'just a friend'. His ex-wife is a lesbian, and this is how screwed up his whole past life is. When his ex-wife started dating this other lady during their marriage, he himself started flirting and sending provocative pictures to this other lady. His ex-wife found out and was pissed about it. Currently, his ex-wife and ex-wife's wife wanted to have another child, and wanted the ex-wife's wife to experience being a mother. So they asked the OM to get her pregnant the old fashioned way. He declined, but offered to give his sperm. My wife is pissed about it, saying that if the OM did that, he will be closer than ever to her and to the child since it is his. The OM said no way, because he is not close to his own 4 kids, which is why he gave up custody of them in the first place. He finally admitted he is not close to his own kids. What is it my wife still sees in this man???

Honestly, at this point I don't know why I am hanging on anymore. Seeing just how naive my wife is, I just want to divorce already. I've kept faithful through all this, and I plan to until the day the divorce papers are signed. I don't want to date anyone anyways, I don't think I can trust anyone again. My whole life has been nothing but women cheating on me. I don't know what it is about me, nice guys really do finish last.

My wife can barely take care of herself, never mind the kids, and I don't see this OM helping my wife at all, no matter what she thinks. I think I can raise my kids so much better on my own, with my family who are all here with me supporting me. Currently the plan is to go into plan B, but I think it's more a plan B for me to heal and get over seeing my wife everyday and all her interaction with this OM. I want to protect my kids too from seeing what is going on, even though they do know since I exposed it to them. Separation will help me not hear her sad story about how she cannot decide what to do, who to choose. I can't be hearing her say she still cares about me, asks me if I still would love her and would be able to trust her, hear her say she wish things could go back to how they were. I can't keep hearing this, keep trying to do my best in plan A and be respectful, loving, and kind and then see her do this to me. It's just too painful.

The plan right now is at the end of the month she is going to move into our other rental house. We have a rental house, a kind of triplex (three - two bedroom units), where she will occupy one of the units. The other two units' rent is enough to pay for the mortgage and property taxes. I'll stay in our main house. Im working on the details of the separation, the plan B. But I don't know if I want to work on this marriage. I just want to be separated enough so that I can stabilize myself and my emotions, work on taking care of my 9 and 5 year old boys, take enough time so that I can say honestly to myself in the mirror that I worked as hard on this marriage as I possible can, and then be ready to just let go. In my mind, even if she finally comes to her senses during plan B and leaves this OM and wants to work on the marriage, I don't know if I want that anymore. I can take care of our kids by myself better than both of us together.

I might come back here for get more advice on the details of plan B; the last time I did plan B 12 years ago I didn't have kids and it was much easier. It's going to be tricky this time around.

Did Steve tell you time frame to go into Plan B?

Steve actually told me almost two months ago to get into plan B. He suggested that if we could afford it, that I have my wife move out (rather than me). And back then, my wife agreed, she looked for a place and was about to move in when the owners suddenly decided to sell the house instead. After that, my wife dragged her feet looking for a place, and finally a month ago she decided to live in the triplex that we rent out ourselves. But that involved moving our tenant out, and they will finally be moving out at the end of June. Yes, being exposed to my wife's infidelity has chipped away at my love for her day by day, its just about gone now. I'm staying faithful, finding happiness in my kids, but I don't know why I am hanging on anymore. . .

Ok so you plan to go to Plan B at the end of June? Are you in individual therapy to help you though the stages of ending this relationship?

Is there a thread regarding the states of ending a relationship? Is it like the typical grief, denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance? I think I'm in the anger stage, but other days I feel like I'm in acceptance. I would guess Steve Harley will help, but I"m also going to use my workplace provided therapy to help me through it.

I think I have been accepting mostly after I started to realize 2 things: that I can take better care of my two kids then together with my wife; she is over protective and impatient. You might think I'm biased because of the affair, but my parents, siblings, family, friends have all told me the same thing. My wife actually told my older son, "All my life I have been putting you and your brother first. It's time I put myself first in my life." Its true you have to take care of yourself before you can take care of others, but that sounds like a selfish statement to me. And through this affair I just see her being so less caring and available for our kids. Plus, when I have my two boys, I can dedicate 100% of my time to them.

The other thing that helped me into acceptance is when the OM admitted that he gave away custody of his four kids because he doesn't feel close to them. They were born and raised here in Hawaii, and all he needed to do is say he wanted them, and they would stay, since the judges always favor the status quo and keeping their situation the same. But he insisted they go. For awhile, it was making me go absolutely crazy to think that my two boys would be under his care, that the OM would possibly be their stepdad and he would steal them away from me. It was making me even more depressed than my own wife being with him. Obviously my opinion of him and his values is very low. But since he is not close to his own kids, I highly doubt he would be close to my kids.

I also already talked to a divorce lawyer to give me some advice, and it has been helpful as I go into plan B. I'm curious what other people here think of my situation. It should ultimately be based on me, but do some people think I should be giving up yet? To try and hold on in plan B? I don't know.

I think with the history of your WW’s affairs and in her current state it would be very smart to go into Plan B. I think you have done way more than you needed to and I think your kids will be better off. How sad for a mother to tell her kids that “it’s her time to put herself before them”. That says a lot about the state of mind she is in.

I think you should follow what your lawyer says and serve her.

I totally agree on plan B, it is way past time. Plan B will protect you from all of this and you will begin to find your emotional equilibrium again after some time.

On giving up too soon, frankly you have been on this roller coaster now multiple times in your marriage. You saved it last time, now you are trying again. You are working your plan and working with the best in the marriage saving business, the Harleys. You have legal counsel. At the end of this you will be able to say to yourself and your kids that you did everything you could to save the marriage. Your wife though has to get out of the fog and also want to save the marriage and also change her personal boundaries around men to not repeat this situation again. This may happen later rather than sooner, hence plan B to protect your love for your wife and your own sanity. Or it may never happen, you will not know until some time in the future. From your wife's comments, she is only thinking about herself since she is in the throes of the affair, classic behavior and I saw it in my own situation.

Divorce - if it comes to that - also will protect your assets and stabilize things. Maybe it won't come to that. But I would follow the advice of your legal counsel and protect yourself, your assets, and your custody. Divorce is not the end, but another step, and remarriage is possible in future if the affair dies and she comes to her senses. Or it may not be possible or for you even desirable in future after plan B.

Something I learned from my own situation and work with Steve is that these things take place over time, sometimes a lot of time. Think of John and Sue in Surviving an Affair. But in the end it is two people that must collaborate to rebuild a marriage from an affair. Your wife must join you. For now, the best thing is to work the MB plan.