I picked up an interesting tidbit from what was probably my 5th reading of Pittman's Private Lies. It's relevant to a few of us and provided me a little insight. I know there are a small number of us in this situation with me.<P>People who want to be married stay committed to their marriage, work through their problems, and make their marriages work. People who want to be divorced get divorced. But what do people who want to be separated want?<P>Answer - not to be married TO ANYONE. They are not really married to the spouse (a legal relationship only) and not really committed to the OP either. The paper marriage prevents them from getting involved in a real one.<P>This could be useful to a philanderer, although I don't believe my husband is one of these. It could also apply to the situation where the OP is married, so there's no urgency to end the legal marriage. For my situation, where the OP is not married and my husband is not a philanderer, I'm tentatively concluding that his commitment to her is not that strong. This would also be supported by the fact that they've been together more than a year and she has yet to meet our kids or his parents, all of whom are local.<P>Alternatively, is it possible that he really is the lazy dog that he currently claims he is and just can't get around to filing, after 14 months of separation?

Dear Distressed,<P>what an interesting bit of information. I am so glad you posted it. It does not apply to my situation, but, there are many women on this site, who may benefit from reading that.<P>I agree with your assessment of what's going on with your H. His committment to the OW seems to be non-exsistent! He sounds like he's ashamed of how he is living, and therefore, does not want to introduce her to the important people in his life.<P> And, he doesn't sound like he thinks too much of her either, almost like he's ashamed of a woman who'd be having an affair with a married man...ironic.<P>People do what they want to do, IF your H wanted a divorce, he'd file for divorce. NO ONE is THAT lazy! <P>He is coasting right now. How is your relationship with him? Is he holding out any hope to you, that there is a chance of reconciliation? <P>If he didn't file yet, during the height of the excitement of a new relationship, why would he ever? I wonder if she's pressuring him at all?<P>She certainly does not hold a position of any real significance in his life yet, that is definite.<P>If he was in love with her, he'd want to make a life with her. I think you are accurate in your feelings on this. This is not a substative relationship. It satisfies him on some level, but it does not seem to be one he plans on nurturing.<P>Hold on to your hope.<P>~skye

Distressed, my husband seems to be in exactly the same place as yours. Even in the year that we have been apart (as of today, as a matter of fact), he has never introduced her to his family or his oldest friends. Although he appears to be somewhat committed to her in some of his actions, wouldn't a man who believes he is truly "in love" and that the relationship is "right" want to introduce her to the people that mean the most to him? <P>One of the things that has always struck me about my situation is that my husband has never talked about "us" and "we" when he talks to me about things he has done or is doing - he speaks only in first person singular "I" and "me." If he was so sure that this was right, wouldn't he be talking, as many of the betrayers do, about her and them together?<P>They are incomprehensible people, these betraying husbands of ours ...<P>Well, just keep in mind that the books almost all agree that an affair will generally fall apart within 2 years after it comes to light.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I believe in miracles...<BR>

distressed,<P>How interesting. I have that book, too, but my H took my entire collection of infidelity books when hemoved out again several weeks ago, so I can't go back and reread.<P>Along the lines of the other posts above - my H has been seeing the OW for 9 mos. and she has met no one. 2 of his kids live in different states and he has not even told them we are separated. he has told no one save a few close friends that we are separated - even some of his close friends here suspect, but don't really know. <P>When they call for him I tell them to call him on his cell phone. Sometimes, he waits to get here and then calls them from here. His Mom knows we are separated, but he has never told her about OW. None of his siblings, who don't live here, know we are separated. It is bizarre.<P>But, I wholeheartedly agree that these actions mean he is not commited to divorcing me NOR to moving ofrward with her. In my mind, that is a plus for me. After all, and I read this in a book, a decision not to divroce me is a decision to stay married to me. He has mentioned that we will eventually get a D, but has done nothing about it. I mentioned in anger a while back that I would just go and get the D. He asked me to wait and not do anything until after the first of the year for "income tax purposes". I think he wants to stall me because he is as of yet still unsure.<P>I don't really want a D at this point, so there is no rush for me. I would be ever so surprised if he would file - don't believe it would happen.<P>Skye and Terri, funny, how you both said somethihng I told my H. If you are so inlove with her, I would think you would be dying to be together and be proud to intorduce her to your family, etc. I said this after he told me he was never getting married again if we eneded up D and he wasn't moving to FL to live with her and didn't want her to move here to GA to live with him. He told me he would just see her when he "could", which I take as meaning when it is convenient for him. BIG LOVE, huh????<P>Roll Me Away

Well, I can tell you that my H is just plain old confused.... Tells me that because He loves us both, that being separated will not further hurt either of us, and would hope to some day have the gumtion to have no contact with either of us so that we would just get over this and heal.<P>H says he feels guilty, cant be on either end of the teeter totter without feeling like hes cheating...even if H was with me his wife, he feels like he is cheating..<P>Anyway, he is too weak and always is sending the "I love you's" out to both of us" I believe just so he can hang on.... What a mess... This last week has been terrible, and I think lots is going on, but wont know or let my imagination run.... <P>cozy <my h is the worst mess>

Very interesting comments.<P>Skye, no doubt, my husband is coasting. If he hadn't told me three times in the last four months that he will divorce me, I would never have thought so. We have great times together. We go to waterparks, fairs, family events (his, not mine. my folks would decapitate him), laugh, joke, share stories, you get the picture. He is much more involved with the children than a few months ago, although still somewhat emotionally disconnected from our baby (but getting better). It's only those words that don't fit.<P>I think he's painted himself into a corner. He's been lying/minimizing so long to his parents (and to me, but I never believed it), that now he can't bring her out. Plus, from the little I know of her, she's not exactly going to fit in. My husband is an executive with an MBA. She's an uneducated factory worker that works in his organization and she's of a different race. They're top secret at his office. I can imagine the reaction of his folks - British born (so is my husband), PhD father who developed the Concorde, mother who has multiple master's degrees and teaches computer science in retirement, taking all this in. Actually, the vision of it is a bit on the comical side.<P>Terri, there is alot in common in our situations. I think it is clear that there is some shame, but even worse, a total lack of courage. I mean, come on guys. If you choose to live your life this way, can't you even get enough spunk together to introduce her to the family? I think they've become enormous cowards and seem no longer capable of taking control of their lives, even to the smallest degree. All I see is avoidance.<P>Roll me away, they are bizarre and confusing. Pride is definitely NOT one of the emotions they have regarding their situations. Keeping it as quiet as possible and then deliberately misrepresenting at every opportunity. Where does it end?<P>Used2becozy, where does it all end? I have no idea. I don't see my husband investing the SLIGHTEST amount of effort trying to resolve things. He only avoids. It's very obvious, too. Even my seven year old son said to me this week - "dad must have alot of worries because he never spends anytime thinking about coming home". Exactly.<P>I do think they've lost themselves completely. They've gotten into such a big mess with only difficult ways out. So they do nothing at all and just wait for someone else to take it out of their hands. I am convinced that anyone that chooses to live in this situation has severe self-esteem issues and a complete lack of confidence. I'm curious how many of our spouses actually seem to be happy with their lives. Their is no question that my husband shows clear signs of depression. It must be horrible to have to look at himself and see how little courage he has in this situation. So he really tries NOT to look at himself at all. Won't read, won't see a counselor, and won't talk about it. Very sad.b

Distressed,<P>I hate that you are still in solid limbo. You deserve so much better. My h left and didn't file for divorce for a long time. I finally did after he started spending a large amount of money. I wanted to make sure he knew he was spending his not our money. Even after I filed, he was too lazy to hire a lawyer, too lazy to get the necessary paperwork to a lawyer, too lazy to take the mandatory parenting class that is necessary in our state. He is too lazy to schedule his visitation, go to work, and generally make a life for his child. <P>I don't know how a person can live in denial for so long. Maybe they don't know what they want. I get it that he doesn't want me. I don't believe he has made any committement to the OW. My children have not seen her for over a year. So he is really good at hiding her or they are not a couple any more. I have a feeling that he is not very happy. He pitched a fit the other day, because the friend I have been dating was over and he could hear my daughter and him laughing at something. He told me that it wasn't appropriate for me to have a male friend over when my daughter was at home. I said I have primary custody and you see her once or twice a week and I am supposed to not have a life. You have been gone over a year and a half. If you want to talk about being a family again then, I can take this criticism, but where we are now it is totally a non issue. Any way, I think that some people are classic avoiders of any type of confrontation. He said to me, that my life was turning out better than his and that he couldn't figure out why. I can see why he feels that way. I don't think you can find happiness without committing to something. It might be your children, your family, your spouse, whatever. You need to know what you value and commit to that and you then find happiness. I pray for him to find himself someday. After all he is the father of my children. Take care and keep in touch. <P>Gerri

I'm so sorry that any one of you out there is going through the same mess I am. <P>Distressed, you are right. They don't want to commit to anything. <P>My H is the same. He won't commit to the OW and has told me many times that he will never marry again if we get divorced. In fact, I had him served with papers and THEN he decided that we should try counseling and that he still loved me.

Distressed,<P>I agree most wholeheartedly with you about some of this being cowardice! I think my H is too ashamed to come home because he has "lost face", too cowardly to do anything to really commit to OW. <P>I also agree that these fence-sitters are waiting for either the S or the OP to back out of the relationship so then the choice is made and they don't have to be the one making the choice.<P>If my H was really in-love with the OW and felt we were over, he should have moved on by now. After all, he has been involved with OW for 9 months. We are financially secure - both have great incomes, no debt and can each make it on our own financially. Money would not be an issue or reason we would need to stay together.<P>The kids are aged 27 - 18, so there are no little ones at home for him to say he's staying "until the kids get older". No alimony or child support would be involved. Really, and I have pointed this out to him, there is no reason we couldn't just easily get D if he doesn't want to be married to me. So, has he filed or done a thing about it?? No. He is living with a guy friend. Supposedly will look for a house to rent, but hasn't done anything yet on that either. Has his office in our home and truthfully, he could move his computer and phone lines out if he wanted to. I could go on, but you get the picture.<P>My H isn't commited to either me or her. He is undecided and too cowardly to make a firm decision. I know in my heart he is hoping one of us will drop out of the race so he doesn't have to "hurt anybody" or be the "bad guy". His screwed up way at justifying what he is doing. But, alas, goofy as his thinking is right now, I sure love that idiot....<P><sigh><P>Roll Me Away

What would any of you do if your H said "I want to come home" ?<P>Mine said this the other day, but I know whats going on in the situation he is in at MIL's house... He is at the end of his free stay period.. Took them almost 8 months to get tired of taking care of him, and also H doesn't like where OW lives.... So I asked.. "Is this because your being forced out of your moms and don't like living in BC? Would you tell OW its over? would you start going to church again with this family? Will you be the provider I need you to be, I don't want to "take care" of you....<P>Lots of Q's huh? Well he said that there is truth to the first part, and OW 'probably' would just get so PO'd if he came back home that she'd not talk to him again... and as far as getting a job..."I don't want just any job" Geez I don't want to babysit, I want a husband...<P>Anyway, since you are all in similar situations, I am going to post a Q to all, but wanted your opinions too....<P>cozy

cozy,<P>My H is gone - this is our 2nd separation. When he came home after the first one, he just came home after a business trip and hung his travle hanging bag up in the lcoset and was home. no talking about anything, just home. BIG MISTAKE. He only stayed 2 1/2 weeks and ddecided this wasn't going to work because he "couldn't give the OW up." We had talked alot before he came home about what he needed to do to be successful if he ever came home. But, when push came to shove, he didn't do any of the things HE told me he needed to do to be successful.<P>For him to come home again, he would have to come to me and tell me he knows he loves me and wants to work on our marriage and more. I would never let him come home like he did last time. I think it set us back quite a bit because it added to his sense of "failure".<P>The question I have for you is this: What would YOU like to see H do and say to you before you would feel comfortable about it??<P>Roll Me Away

Used2bcozy,<P>I don't think that is is very healthy to jump in and rescue him when things are falling apart for him. Sometimes they really need to hit rock bottom before they can appreciate what they had.<P>I do think it is important for you to know and communicate to him the needs that need to be met for you to feel safe in the relationship. The ones you listed sound pretty reasonable. <P>You asked what would we do if H wanted to come back. I would insist on marriage counseling, I would incorporate many of Dr Harleys principals so that trust could develop once again. I would insist that he cut off all contact w/OW. I would insist on us starting on fresh ground. Kinda like a start over. I don't want the same relationship, I had when he left. I want to develop a healthy intimacy without feeling like we are losing ourselves or are feeling trapped in the relationship. <P>I can't tell you what is right for you. But I did have a few tries at reconciliation. Usually he couldn't handle the withdrawal and left again, devestating the children every time. If you feel like he really wants to try, you need to feel strong and grounded about you and what you need. I hope I have helped. <P>G

Used2bcozy:<P>My opinion on the question "what would I do if he said he wanted to come home" is dramatically different today than it was a few months ago. Today, I say that he cannot come home until all the problems are fixed through the diligent application of marriage counseling. I cannot have him back in the household the way he is and can't subject my son to another desertion.<P>The decision would be based on: 1) demonstrated EFFORT to fix the problems (which means not only showing up for marriage counseling, but also doing what the counselor says and being honest), 2) complete separation from the OW for two months or longer (hopefully out of withdrawal), 3) demonstrated competence towards learning to negotiate and not just using the "my way or the highway" approach and leaving me holding the bag on every issue, 4) demonstrated and sustained helpfulness with the children, which includes accepting responsibility for their health, education, and welfare and daily care of them (not just when convenient or only for fun things). He's not coming back until he does all these things in the separation. There's too much at stake and he has too far to go to get to an acceptable level for cohabitation.<P>Maybe this is tough and I'm really squeezing the likelihood of reconciliation down to nearly nothing, but if he comes back short-changing any of these areas, we won't last anyway.<P>Of course, I won't phrase it like this. I will say "I think we can't afford to hurt our son through a failed reconciliation attempt. Why don't we try counseling for a while, address the problems in that environment, and make a decision about moving back in a few months down the road?"<P>Right now, this entire question is a complete fantasy.

Limerick:<P>How nice to hear from you! I've been wondering what you've been up to.<P>It sounds like you're still in the divorce process (or is it done or on hold?), you're doing great, but your husband still hasn't made any progress. These guys are really a sad lot. The way they act, it seems like their lives are already over. Maybe the natural extension of denial is self-pity. What would happen to them if they had other najor challenges in their lives, like sick parents or children to deal with? Could they do it? I'm doubtful. It seems like they've completely checked out of being responsible adults.<P>I may still be in limbo, but I am way better. I have a great life, wonderful friends and family, a terrific job and home. With rare exception, I don't mope. I'm close to taking action to end my situation. I'll give it a couple more months and see how I feel.<P>So, give us an update on what's going on with you. I'd love to hear more.

My H has decided he can no longer live with housemate who is "dating" OW. He's looking for an apartment. The thing is, over 2 weeks ago he told me he loves me and wants to work on the marriage...wouldn't this logically lead to his moving home? <P>At the same time, he has moved home 5 times with varying declarations of commitment and I truly think I need to see 1) him going to a counselor 2) staying on his anti-depressants (going off them seemed to be the main reason for the last separation.)<P>But the wife in me just wants her husband home...I hate the separations, he says he "needs" them.<P>I'm wondering if he doesn't want his own place so OW can "do" both him and his ex-housemate. Or maybe he'll be looking for someone new--keeping me on the line with "I love you, Lor." He's done that before.<P>I can't find my way out of this maze.<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Do not get tired of doing what is right, for after awhile you will reap a harvest of blessings if you do not get discouraged and give up. (Gal 6:9)<P>

Hi Distressed,<BR>Great topic - you know I'm one of those in the same boat with you. I feel this fits my H to a T at this point. He told me recently he can envision us being apart, if we are both single and making arrangements to see the kids - but he would be so hurt if I decided to remarry and someone else was helping to raise his kids!!! i.e. he doesn't want to be married and he is not willing to accept the logical consequences of divorce. He then told me he asked himself what it means that he reacts so negatively to thinking about his family with someone else - and he said he's still thinking about it! (I dunno - seems like a no brainer to me.) I also know he is not really committed to OW either (but he is somehow managing to string her along just as he is me ).<P>I also think he is waiting for one of us to back out so he doesn't have to hurt anyone. Sooo incomprehensible - aren't we all hurt already!!!???<P>Thanks for the food for thought.<BR>Starpony<P>

Distressed,<P>Life is good. I am so blessed to be one of the few people that doesn't have to worry about how I am financially going to make it.<P>My divorce is still in process. I didn't know that it could take so long. He has been dragging his feet the whole time. We have worked out a pretty good parenting plan. The holidays will be interesting. He is living his life, I mine, with minimal contact, only about the children. <P>At this point it is good. For the longest time I wanted to talk to him a few times a day. I literally had to wean myself off him. It was a hard habit to quit. Once I did, I emotionally felt 100% better. I started to make baby steps in running my life. It was a real growth process for me. I was in individual counseling and group counseling wich deals w/relationships. The people in my group really helped me see what was appropriate boundries and what is not. They validated me and then I validated myself. Then I really focused on me and my needs and started to develop a real strong sense of self. I realized none of this the affair, OW and abandonment was because of me but it is his issue. <P>I started doing thing I have always wanted to do but felt like I was waiting to do it with him. I traveled, took classed and focused alot of energy on my kids. My 18 yr old was really depressed and it was hard to get him help, but I finally did. <P>So all in all things are looking up. I never thought that I would feel real settled about all this, but I have to say I have taken most of the losses in my life in stride. This was a huge one for me, but time does heal. Hope you will have some resolution soon. <P>GP