heikefrank69: I'm glad you clarified that for me, it actually makes me feel a lot better. <P><BR>What jsg and jw3 said makes a lot of sense. I think I will have to ask him, and I just hope it is better, not worse than I imagine. At least it will be the truth, anyway, and I DO value truth more than anything. At least my husband never lied to me or tried to hide it, he just doesn't want to hurt me. Or maybe it's painful for him to admit it to me, I don't know. We'll probably end up talking about it all.<P>"You need to know what they were going through during those times to understand why they did what they did." - That is so true for me...<P>I'll keep you updated...

Well, I felt a lot better after I decided I'd have to ask him, and have him basically tell me everything. We talked a little bit, but I didn't want to push him. I did let him know that I wanted to know everything, and I didn't want us to keep secrets from each other, (I think if he tells me not to ask about something, it's keeping secrets...). He just said he is really embarrassed about it. I told him that was ok, that I wouldn't think any less of him since I love the man he is today, and that he could think about it and tell me when he's ready. I don't want him to think he is worth any less to me because I know more about him. Now that I know he will tell me everything, I feel better. Yes, I still feel a little bit jealous and a little bit cheated right now, but just knowing that there is not an area I have to side-step around all the time makes me feel a lot better. <P>Especially since it is an area that has caused me a lot of pain. I will post when I hear everything. Any other's experiences are still helpful.

<small>[ July 18, 2004, 10:07 PM: Message edited by: Roscoe ]</small>

Ok, I said before I decided to ask, and I told him I want to know everything. He was embarrassed, so I told him I'd wait until he was ready. He says he's ready, but he wants me to ask the questions. It's really hard for me to just "grill him" to begin with, but on top of that, I really can only think of one question (how many?). I really don't want to have to keep bringing this up when I think of another question. What were the questions you asked? I want to know about everything, but I just have a hard time thinking of how to say things sometimes. I want to be ready.

<small>[ July 18, 2004, 10:08 PM: Message edited by: Roscoe ]</small>

Roscoe, thanks for humoring me. I am as obsessed as you ever were. I'm glad I've seen somebody else's "list", so I can sort of put mine into words.<P>I have pretty much gotten over the "why" aspect of it, since he has told me a squillion times that he thinks he was just stupid and selfish, and he thought it made him look cool. And he was really lonely. I can also understand why women put out, as I am good looking but did not have many dates in high school after all the guys found out I was not letting them in my pants. The difference is that I cared the most about what God thought about me, and what condition my soul was in, and my husband thought about looking cool, "fitting in" and finding a damp dark spot to put it. He is not like that now, and I actually find it hard to reconcile the two images. When I do, that's when I would worry about him cheating. After I talked to him about that, he was able to somehow say the right things and now I can honestly say that I trust him completely. I'd still be spitting nails if some pretty girl was flirting with him, but I know he'd bring me up in the conversation within three sentences anyway. That's the "why" for me.<P>Back to the "history" obession. I actually considered having him write it down, because I know I'll have to hear/look at it over and over. I even read the same book 20 times. At least I have a good memory for conversations. That's actually bad, because he forgets things we've talked about, and they're etched in my head. Then I think "maybe it/me wasn't important to him", when really he's just a poor clueless guy. <P>I think this will take a long time because of both of us. I will not put him "in the hot seat", and he is reluctant to get to the hard stuff because he is still afraid I will hate him for it. I know that I won't, so I told him that and that I'll wait until he's ready to tell me. He actually told me a little bit after that, but just warm up stuff. Since he's still worried I'll hate him, I'm just going to let him work up to it.<P>I wish it WAS in hard-bound edition. <P>

Well, I asked. He told. I am so glad that I asked. It still hurts me, but really no where near what it did. My imagination was a LOT worse than the truth. <P>The thing that I obsess about the most was his "first time". I had him tell me what happened, and it wasn't a good time for him. I feel bad that I am happy about that. But not too bad. It was also in his parent's house, and I just don't like going into his old room any more. Can you blame me? <P>It's weird, because when I heard one thing a while ago, I cried for three days. Not kidding, it was three days. My eyes ached from crying. I've never cried that much in my life. And it was really not that big a thing. But then when we talked about it openly, and he told me everything, I didn't cry at all. It really doesn't bother me any more. Well, it does a tiny bit sometimes, but I know that is just me worrying too much. <P>One thing that helps me is that I know that we were each gifts from God to each other. We fit too perfectly for it not to have been designed that way. And I am not going to tell God that the gift he gave me isn't ok because he had a flawed past. I am happy being a gift to him. You don't give gifts to get something in return.

Thanks for the update. I felt confident that the truth would look better than your fears. Now you can face it with your head held high. Looks like you’re off to a good start.<P>Reading and posting here has made me feel a lot better lately. Seems like it works for you too.<BR>

You men have a completely different view of this than my husband. He never wanted to get together with a virgin, rather prefered the "experienced" type. Why does this bother you so much? Does it somehow threaten your masculinity or something? Why does it matter to you what your wife did before you came along. I think it's an entirely different matter if they haven't been faithful to you while they've been with you, but why does it bother you that your wife had a past? My dh didn't have one, but I've been with guys who have and it didn't bother me.<P>one mommy

To anyone who has had more than one sexual partner, I'm sorry, but you have no idea what you missed out on. My husband once worried, when we met, that I would wonder what *I* missed out on. I don't. I think HE missed out on the peace and rest that I have with my own past.<P>I missed out on heartache and STD's. He missed out on peace with himself and a healthy soul. He scarred himself, and it's evident to me where. He has no iea what he's done to himself. I love him anyway, and God will heal everything in His own time. But I am glad I had people to talk with me about sex before I did anything that would destroy my own soul that way.<P>I posted this in the "Other Topics" forum, but I think it merits a reposting here. <P>See...a big problem here is that unless you're actually in THAT situation, you have no concept of how many hurts there are that go along with it.<P>When my husband is making love to me and whispers "we're one", I think "no, you already gave parts of yourself away, how can WE be one?" Crazy, but that's what I think. How can sex mean something with me but not with others?<P>Or how about when he brings out a scarf and wants to tie me up, and I think "who else has he tied up with that scarf?"<P>Or we go to dinner at friends' of his parents, and his old girlfriend happens to be their daughter, and they had sex...and I'm sitting right across the table from her trying to suppress feelings of wanting to tear her eyeballs out.<P>Or when he gets a letter for his high school reunion, and I think "I can't go, because the whole time I'll be wondering who sucked his [censored]..."<P>Or that I know that statistically, you're more likely to cheat if you've had more partners.<P>Or when I look at his penis and think "where else has that been..."<P>Or when I know that he lost his virginity at his parents house, and I don't want to go in the room it happened in, even though he didn't even like his first time...<P>There are daily reminders.<P>He's also told me that when we're having sex, pictures of other times with other women will flash across his brain. Can you keep stuff from flashing across your brain? No, he can't do it any more than I can keep from thinking the above thought when he says something like that to me. I can choose not to dwell on it, but I can't keep the thought from flashing. I could go on and on about that pain it's caused me. It's caused me that pain because I understand the symbolism and real nature of sex as God designed it. <BR>My husband and I DID have sex before we were married. Marriage is a piece of paper to me, I didn't care about it and I knew he was the only one for me ever, in my entire life. But he says sex is different with me now that we're married. Why, he won't tell me. I have no idea what he means.<P>Does my husband tell me I'm the best and prettiest, etc? Yes. I don't worry about that, I'm a hottie and I'm a quick study. <P>I bitterly wish that I could forget all about it. Talking about it helps, coming here helps. But some things are just easier said than done. I think it's like a grieving period, where someone dies and it just takes time to get over it. You have to help yourself get over it, but it's no good ignoring it. It won't just "go away", you have to deal with it. <P>Again, there are daily reminders. You have to make a conscious effort to get past it, but the progress is slow at times.<P>I pray to God he never knows how much pain he caused me by his poor moral choices. He doesn't know how much he's twisted his soul, and I'm just glad God can fix anything.<P>prettygarnet

To prettygarnet:<P>It appears from your latest post that you have came along way since your first. It is so good to her from a woman that has encountered what I have been going through. There definitely are daily reminders that get you thinking about the past. Some of mine include driving by houses that I know she had sex in and anything from the 80s (songs, shows, etc.). I wish I could repress the thoughts and images, but I just can't. They come without any warning and hit me like a ton of bricks. I feel sorry for my wife because she is now being forced to deal with things that happened over 13 years ago and her husband won't simply let it go. I have improved tremendously, though, since I first found out about her past sexual history. With the passage of time, I think it will get even better.<P>You are so right with your quote that people who have not experienced what we have will never know the kind of hurt we go through. The thought of your spouse engaging in sexual intercourse with someone else sucks when it is based in reality and not fantasy. Yes, I do fantasize about my wife with other men, but that is simply a fantasy. The reality of it is that she has been with other men and that hurts more than any "non-virgin" will ever know.<P>Thanks

jsg,<P>I am not even going into those "other" threads right now. I don't want to get worked up over the same old thing that I've heard a thousand times. I'm afraid I would take it out on my husband, and he doesn't deserve that. He has told me he dissapproves of their position. Strongly. He is not that kind of person and I shouldn't be tempted to lump them together.<P>I already spent a year with advice like that, and it just made things worse. I've already been down that road. It's like a doctor telling you he's got the cure, but you've tried his medicine for a year and it hasn't worked. Then you find something that works, and he keeps trying to cram the old "cure" down your throat. *L*<P>Anyway, you guys have helped me too much for me to chuck this whole place. I can't believe I actually found *anyone* else who can relate to my position, let alone give advice on what they've done to work through it. <P>I'm still talking it all over with my husband, and new stuff comes up occassionally, but it's easy to handle things now. (I really think I have the best marriage in the world, anyway. We are best friends, soulmates, everything I ever wanted.) The best part was not getting advice from here, but rather discussing thoughts and hearing viewpoints. This has made me able to talk to my husband about it, which is who I should be talking to about it anyway. <P>PG

PG, I think you hit the nail on the head with this quote: <P>"The best part was not getting advice from here, but rather discussing thoughts and hearing viewpoints."<P>I think that is exactly why people like you and me have posted here. We desperately wanted to find someone in the same position as us. We both know that the only "advice" that will work in our situations is to let go of the past and move on, but that is not the reason why we came here. That is where posters such as Desertrose and JL have missed the point. The want to give sound advice but unfortunately it comes across as meaningless because it is not that easy to "get over it." I can understand where they are coming from because they have had sexual partners prior to their marriage and I am sure they would hate to think that their spouse has some sort of hang up with their past. It is easy for people who have had past partners to think we are overreacting to our situations. I am sure my wife wishes I would just "get over it" and for the most part I have, but advice to "get over it" does not sit as well with me as hearing from other people in my situation. That is where the real help came from.<P>I am very thankful that you, John, Roscoe, Athens, Howard, Looknup and all the others in our situation have found this site. You guys saved me from ruining the best thing that has ever happened to me, my marriage. JSG

Is this ‘internal exile’ <IMG SRC="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/wink.gif">?


I found a thread on this board from last September by a guy named Kendoll where he gets pilloried for expressing himself on this subject. Just the ‘tough love’ he needed, I imagine. You might want to check it out.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum12/HTML/000125.html

Roscoe

<small>[ July 18, 2004, 10:14 PM: Message edited by: Roscoe ]</small>

*L* I guess this is the virtual gulag. Glad to see you here, too, Roscoe. <P>Poor kendoll, nobody was there to help him out. That's pretty much what happened to me at another site, but mine was a little worse even. I did notice that somebody pointed out that saying "get over it" trivializes the other person's problem and does not help. <P>One quote about thoughts, to people who say "don't think about it"--<BR>"I can't keep birds from flying over my head, but I can keep them from nesting in my hair." ---Martin Luther<P>I found that quote somewhere, and it is true in our cases. We can, and I think we mostly do keep the birds from nesting. But we can't stop them from flying overhead any more than our spouse can keep thoughts of their previous partners from flashing through their brain. <P>I am sure it is difficult for people who've had previous partners to think that someone doesn't approve of their past, or is *gasp* hurt by their past. <P>I found another analogy from the story about the Velveteen Rabbit, and it helped me to think of things in a new way. I will post it as soon as I can. I don't have it with me right now. <P>PG

Well it looks like I got myself into some trouble on the "Other Topics" forum. The moderator had to come step in between Mike C2 and me.<P>Apparently him and I are going to have to "agree to disagree", because neither of us are backing down from our opinions. <P>Anyways, I will continue to post in this forum if it is alright with the rest of you. Please let me know.

I understand your pain about being lied to for some many years however be thankful it didn't occur after you had married....then I would be concerned. I have also had only one partner my whole life...my husband. He had 2 partners previous to our relationship but it didn't bother me. Maybe it is a man/woman issue but I say forget it. She is with you and that is what counts! Learn to "let it go" and you will feel much better. Good luck! DFB

Of course *I* want you to stay, jsg. There is no question. Personally, I think you were more civil than a lot of others. I just went and looked at the whole thing. I don't think the moderator thing was directed at you, or at least only at you. I poured out the vitreol, too.<P>I will never be surprised when my moral beliefs are bashed. I will also never be surprised when people offer their advice, even though they are uninformed and have no personal experience with the issue. Sometimes the advice is harmless, but a lot of times it's not.

I learned quite a bit from this. For instance, there really are moderators here . Also, it is much easier to fall over the edge than I thought. We all have our ‘hot buttons’. I’m surprised these dust-ups don’t happen more often. The true test of character is the grace we show after such an experience. All the people involved are very kind people who got angry. I'm not sure about the guy who appeared at the end though. I’ll avoid responding to him in the future.<P><BR>Keep posting jsg. It may feel embarassing to get scolded by the authority figure. Keep smiling and that will soon pass.

Here's a story that struck me when I read it recently. We've probably all heard the velveteen rabbit story, but never really thought about it except in vague terms. Here's the excerpt: <P>'What is REAL?' asked the Rabbit one day when he and his close friend the Skin Horse were lying side by side near the nursery fender. 'Does it mean having things that buzz inside you and a stick-out handle?' <P>'Real isn't how you are made.' said the Skin Horse. 'It's a thing that happens to you. When a child loves you for a long, long time, not just to play with, but REALLY loves you, then you become Real....'<P>'Does it happen all at once, like being wound up...or bit by bit?'<P>'It doesn't happen all at once,' said the Skin Horse. 'You become. It takes a long time...Generally, by the time you are Real, most of your hair has been loved off, and your eyes drop out and you get loose in the joints and very shabby. But these things don't matter at all, because once you are Real you can't be ugly, except to people who don't understand.'<P>For some reason, the line "When a child loves you for a long, long time, not just to play with, but REALLY loves you, then you become Real..." really hits me. I could substitute 'man' instead of child... It's the "not just to play with" part that I find most interesting. I know that my husband used those other women to play with, even though he was in short relationships with most of them. But now that he's with me, we have the kind of love that makes us both 'Real'. I guess that is what makes the difference.<P>And it makes me really glad that I never had sex with any other man, because I would know now that I had just been somebody they "played with", and I would have a really hard time with that. I have always treated friendship as something really serious and really special, and I couldn't bear to be someone's thrown out toy. I guess, from listening to other people here and a lot of college friends, that that's what you feel like when a lover leaves you...like a thrown out toy that wasn't 'fun' any more. (I never really had a break up that was bad, even though I had some close relationships.) I'm glad I saved myself that pain. I know my husband would never toss me away, just like I wouldn't do it to him. <P>My husband was in short relationships or just had sex with women once, I don't know how I would feel if he'd gone out with the same woman for a long time. But really, I can imagine that I'd feel the same, since I was still the one that was not just to "play with". <P>Prettygarnet<P>