<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by billiam1:<BR><B>lOSTPUP,<P>You didn't offend me with your reply, I agree with you that as the spouse that is innocent, then the choice is yous in deciding about divorce, but that same choice is forfitted by the offending spouse. When I chose to end my marriage, adultery was only one of the contributing factors I considered in making my decision, and with several years behind me, I beleive I did the right thing for everyone involved. If I had any inkling of a chance to save my marriage I would have worked on saving it, but with what I knew and good avice from my pastor and counselors, I proceeded with divorce proceedings. I am not a quitter, but felt that this was the right thing to do under the circumstances I was living. I have alway attempted to fight for what I believe is right and good in the sight of God. I am far from perfect, but each day God teaches me His grace, kindness, and love. Yes, the bible states that God hates divorce, but I would say that God hates marital infidelity more and that is why He stated that as the only reason for divorce.<BR>I will also state that one night stands would not fall under the same guidelines as an adultious relationship. I will also state that for all of you who have chose to stay and fight for your marriage, I take my hat off to you and you have my prayers. But in fighting for you marriage, seek good counsel on how you fight for your marriage because if you don't apply the principles God has put in place then your fight will be in vain, and or cause you additional needless pain.<BR>A good starting point for the person who has defiled the marriage would be confess their sins to their spouse, andanswer any questions honestly and openly that they might ask. This confession should be given without excuses, or attempting to minimize their actions, accepting full responsibility for their actions with a willingness to also accept the consequences of their actions.Finally, the spouse must go to the elders of your church and tell them and ask for help in being held accountable so that you won't fail again.<BR>I beleive that the offended spouse has the right to wait and see if your spouse is truly repentant by seeing a change in their spouse and actions. By faith we must require a change in order to rekindle the marriage or the marriage will not be heal and become a healthy marriage with God at the center.<BR>Yes, what I have stated is tough, but if you really love your spouse and want the marriage to work, then you will do what is necessary to rebuild the trust and honoer that was removed. the purpose of honoring requests is to show your love, determination, and commitment in restoring your marriage relationship. Asking for forgiveness is your launching point and means nothing without action.<BR>Yes God uses the marriage relationship as an example of our relationship with Him. We fail God and God forgives and takes us back. But God tells us to repent, i.e. turn and go the opposite way, when He takes us back to Himself. But when we sin, there are earthly consequences for our sins against God's laws and principles. We are not set freee rom those consequences, but we are set free from God's ultimate consequence, being seperated from Him for eternity. The earthly consequences are exactly why God gave us instructions on how to live our lives, they are for our benefit, not just to make life boring. They are to help us live in peace and harmony with others.<BR>I take my hat off to all of you who are persevering through marital infidelity and I pray that you will have success. I beleive what you are doing is good and just before God. I also believe tht God gave us a free will and that He will not force His will upon anyone. If your spouse has chosen to end the marriage you have no shame, but are free to serve God and bring Him glory. God will bless you and open new doors in your life. This is what God has done for me. Each day I thank Him for all He's done for me and look for new doors He has opened.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Dear Billiam1<BR>Your mentioning consequences scares me a little. Both my wife and my mother-in-law have told me I am like Timothy McVeigh, I may be forgiven but I have to pay for the damage I have done. My question is "what damage have I done?" My wife blames me for her depression and need to take medication, she blames me for her eating disorder, and she says I should have been aware of her unhappiness in our marriage. Well maybe I should have been but I didn't know. If she had discussed her unhappiness with me I sincerely believe I would have handled things differently, but she didn't give me the chance. <BR>She believes I am receiving the consequences for all I have done wrong in our marriage. I did things wrong I know that but nothing that warrants divorce. The divorce papers say "irreconcible differences". Where does the Bible say "irreconcible dirrerences" is a Bible reason to divorce?<BR>Even the Christians in her family are against me, where is their leaning on their understanding of the Bible?<BR>There are no answers, I must only trust, hope, and pray.<P>Joe<BR>

Billiam you said "If I had any inkling of a chance to save my marriage I would have worked on saving it, but with what I knew and good avice from my pastor and counselors, I proceeded with divorce "<P>First off you cant save your marriage, you are not God. Second off doesnt sound like you got such good advice to me.<BR>Third, yes we do have freewill and God is greater than even our faith let alone our freewill. God is in the business of breaking oour freewills so we will turn our lives over to Him and His will. My W is a prime example. She had the hardest heart you could imagine. She became a meth junkie. <BR>Yes she has payed a high price for her sins. She has Hep C and is dying of cirrosis of the liver. She finally turned her heart and life back to the Lord and me. It took almost 3 years of hell but God was faithful. God still answers prayers. God is not pleased with many pastors and counselors. All the ones ive talked with told me God cant handle it and i should divorce.(not in so many words) Many seem to forget that their own freewill has gotten in the way and they have choosen not to trust and beleive God can heal and restore their marriage's so they justiify divorce, but it was only their own freewill winning over Gods. <BR>Not many will make it thru this i know. Thats why the bible calls this the narrow road. Ive never known persecution like i know now.And its by people who claim to be christians. <BR>I understand we live in a fallen world. This life sucks. Its full of pain and sorrow. But we have a choice to glorify God with our lives or satan. We tend to forget how much Christ suffered for our redemtion. You might want to ask yourself, have you repented of your unforgiveness, or are you justifying what your own freewill choose and calling it Gods will. Just something to think about.<BR>Mark

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lostpup:<BR><B>Billiam you said "If I had any inkling of a chance to save my marriage I would have worked on saving it, but with what I knew and good avice from my pastor and counselors, I proceeded with divorce "<P>First off you cant save your marriage, you are not God. Second off doesnt sound like you got such good advice to me.<BR>Third, yes we do have freewill and God is greater than even our faith let alone our freewill. God is in the business of breaking oour freewills so we will turn our lives over to Him and His will. My W is a prime example. She had the hardest heart you could imagine. She became a meth junkie. <BR>Yes she has payed a high price for her sins. She has Hep C and is dying of cirrosis of the liver. She finally turned her heart and life back to the Lord and me. It took almost 3 years of hell but God was faithful. God still answers prayers. God is not pleased with many pastors and counselors. All the ones ive talked with told me God cant handle it and i should divorce.(not in so many words) Many seem to forget that their own freewill has gotten in the way and they have choosen not to trust and beleive God can heal and restore their marriage's so they justiify divorce, but it was only their own freewill winning over Gods. <BR>Not many will make it thru this i know. Thats why the bible calls this the narrow road. Ive never known persecution like i know now.And its by people who claim to be christians. <BR>I understand we live in a fallen world. This life sucks. Its full of pain and sorrow. But we have a choice to glorify God with our lives or satan. We tend to forget how much Christ suffered for our redemtion. You might want to ask yourself, have you repented of your unforgiveness, or are you justifying what your own freewill choose and calling it Gods will. Just something to think about.<BR>Mark</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My brothers <BR>Let's be nice, Eph. 4:32 Be ye kind tenderhearted, forgiving one another even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.<P>Joe<BR>

I am kind of new to this...although I have been praying for sometime for my marriage...I too thought I was doing all the right things. I wondered why God wasn't changing my husband. God will not work on your spouse until you let him change you and mold you into the husband/wife you should be. I prayed for God to help me and about a year ago I found Restorem.org ministry. I am a women so I do not know how the book is for the men. But the women that wrote this book has so much wisdom and knowledge she learned from being obedient to God. To really listening to him. God wants your marriage restored. You need to find out what a husband should be. Look up all the scripture and start renewing your mind. Pray that you would love your wife as Christ loves the Church. and believe it. God's word does not come back void, he is faithful. I know I needed to repent to my husband for being an awful wife. I was very selfish and didn't even know it until the word of God convicted me. I asked God for a list of what to do, how to be a good wife. I was directed to that website and her book How God Can and will Restore you marriage. I must have been to every marriage ministry on the net. Bought every Book if you don't trust God completely...For Lack of knowledge your marriage will perish. Go to the website and get the book and if you do have then read it again. I myself really can't help you with how a husband should be, because I have been concentrating on myself. Praise God my marriage is being restored every day. My husband and I are growing as friends, which we never were. I have such a love for him that I never had before. Only God can do that.<P>I will pray for you and I am looking forward to hearing about your restored marriage.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by krrd867:<BR><B>I am kind of new to this...although I have been praying for sometime for my marriage...I too thought I was doing all the right things. I wondered why God wasn't changing my husband. God will not work on your spouse until you let him change you and mold you into the husband/wife you should be. I prayed for God to help me and about a year ago I found Restorem.org ministry. I am a women so I do not know how the book is for the men. But the women that wrote this book has so much wisdom and knowledge she learned from being obedient to God. To really listening to him. God wants your marriage restored. You need to find out what a husband should be. Look up all the scripture and start renewing your mind. Pray that you would love your wife as Christ loves the Church. and believe it. God's word does not come back void, he is faithful. I know I needed to repent to my husband for being an awful wife. I was very selfish and didn't even know it until the word of God convicted me. I asked God for a list of what to do, how to be a good wife. I was directed to that website and her book How God Can and will Restore you marriage. I must have been to every marriage ministry on the net. Bought every Book if you don't trust God completely...For Lack of knowledge your marriage will perish. Go to the website and get the book and if you do have then read it again. I myself really can't help you with how a husband should be, because I have been concentrating on myself. Praise God my marriage is being restored every day. My husband and I are growing as friends, which we never were. I have such a love for him that I never had before. Only God can do that.<P>I will pray for you and I am looking forward to hearing about your restored marriage.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I appreciate your suggestion. I have the two books for men form Restoration Ministries and have just finished them. I have also just read Love Must Be Tough by James Dobson. There is a little contrast of approach between the two. Right now I am planning on going with the Dobson approach. I am "releasing" my wife from our marriage because I didn't force her into it I can't force her to stay in it. Besides I don't really like this new person that is in my house and is mothering my children. She is two faced and very sneaky. My wife was a wonderful girl. It is very confusing because they both look like the same person but they can't be.<P>I have been changing. My walk is getting closer to God daily, but my wife DOESN'T CARE!!! I will benifit from being closer to God but my wife just views it as hypocracy. I have been a Christian for many years but I had stopped living for the Lord the way I ought to. She knows this and anything I do now she just views as a ploy. It doesn't matter anyway like I said this new woman in my house isn't very nice. She is mean and sneaky, she is cute like my old wife but this person must be her evil twin because it just isn't her.<BR>I am trusting in the Lord with all my heart and not leaning on my own understanding right now, and I am benifiting greatly from my new walk with God... But my wife DOESN'T CARE.<P>Joe<P>

Joe,<BR>I tried to find clues as to why as you state your Christian wife and her Christian family have turned ooon you far enought to support her divorce proceedings. I understand why the divorce papers say irroconcilable differences and that is because that is what most divorce attorneys adivise to make things simpler and move faster. Also because most people dopn't want to make public why they are seeking divorce, they believe their spouse knows the reason and that is enough. If you truly don't know why your wife is divorcing you ASK and I'm sure that she will tell you. Without this information there is no chance of asking for forgiveness and working towards reconciliation.<P>As I told you in earlier writings my wife had an affair. I filed in much the same way because I felt that it would be wrong to reveal my wifes sin, it's up to God. When she had to tell her family, they were very angry with her and they're not even Christians. Your wifes family must feel that whatever you have done justifies divorce or they wouldn't be supporting. After she tells you why and if it's true, then accept what she says, but if her statement is false go to them with the truth. I'm going to list a few things that I think of what would illict family support ofr divorce: adultery, physical or emotional abuse, abandonment, drug or alcohol abuse, criminal behavior, lying or cheating without remorse, leaving the Christian faith for another religion. I would find it hard to believe that her Christian family would support her without cause when my wife's non-christian family didn't support her actions and requested me to continue being apart of their family.<P>I would strongly disagree with the statement that you will have to pay for what you've done, but would accept consequences for your action. Once you are forgiven, you're set free from the obligation of debt.<P>This forum offers a level of animinity because we don't have to reveal who we are allowing us the freedom to be honest about who we are without fear of being judged. It also allows us to vent our frustrations, seek guidence and support from others who are going through or have gone through divorce.<P>You have spent a great abount of time making negative statements about your wife, that's normal with what you are going through right now, but you have said little about your part in the demise of your marriage. Joe it's difficult to to adivse or even relate if we don't have a balanced picture of your marriage. Your not knowing why you're hearded for divorce may be an indication of your marriage problems in that you are might be in great denial as to your part of this marriage failure.<P>None of us ae perfect are perfect and you don't have to be perfect either for us to accept and help you. You have stated that you have drawn closer to God and have changed the way that you live your life and practice your faith. Each one of us is growing in knowledge and faith as we choose and it sounds like this divorce has been a wakeup call for you. Your actions now will take time to bear the fruit of your labors just like your actions in the past are now bearing very negative fruit. Here is one example from your writings. You said that you knew the word of God said not not go around talking to people about your wife and her shortcomings, but you felt that saving your marriage was more important. YOu felt that you knew more than God and chose to disobey Him. Looking back now, do you really think that going around telling everyone helped or hindered your cause? My guess is that your wife can't see the changes you have made because all she seeing now is a guy bashing her to all her friends.This is why God gave us the instruction to guard our tongues because of the damage they can cause.<BR>Each time I have ignored God's principles I have alway bore negative fruit and sometimes I've done the same thign several times until I realized how foolish I was and change what I was doing to Gods way. I'm a slow learner at times.<P>Joe the fruit of my acions in my marriage created an enviroment conducive to adltery and divorce. I worked all the time or was involved in my children's activities that I neglected my wife. She in turn went out and found someone to fill her emotional and physical needs that obviously I had not fulfilled. Does that justify her actions, no, but I understand and accept my responsibility for the demise of my marriage.<P>Finally you state that you have released your wife, then let your actions be congruent with tat statement. Trust God to work on her and heart. Nothing you say will change her heart, but your actions just might. I would sit down with her and find out what you have done, and ask for forgiveness, accept responsibility for your actions and offer to make ammends without the the intent of reconciliation, but because it's Gods way of living our life. I would then attempt to work out a plan that would allow you to live peacefully together until you seperate upon divorce. Attempt to minimize conflict by putting inot writing agreements on how you two will run the house and pay the bills. I remember when I did this, it took several hours of looking at what it cost to run the house and take care of the childrens needs. In the end, I paid far more than my wife, but she took care of most of the childrens needs, ccoking, cleaning laundry. Plus I make more money than her so I paid a higher percentage of my income in an attempt to be fair and just. These things we did so that our divorce would have a minimal impact as possible on the children. <P>I know that by what you have stated that your wifeis having some emotional problems and maybe with this it will assist her in regaining herself just like you have this divorce has drawn you closer to God and shown you your shortcomings. Remember this, the divorce is never fianl until the paperwork is signed by both. Just maybe, by faith, while you ae working together she will be able to see the new man you have become and her heart will soften towards you. I know that last statement will take faith, but we are called to live a life of faith. Even after the paparwork is signed you will always be a part of her life because of the children. Couples have rekindling their relationship after all has settled down, letting the past hurts and failure heal with time and space. But the more contensious you are towards divorce the less chance you will have at ever reconciling or even just being friends.<P>Joe, may God be with you and help you search your heart, just as David searched his heart before God so that he would not sin against Him. I've spent the last 5 years on my face before God and He continually reveals Himself to me and shows me who I really am, not how I perceive myself. I am a sinner saved by the grace of God. Each day I fall short of His glory, but He restore my faith and me. His word is a light unto my feet and the measure of my conduct.

<BR> It hay be a Medical problem. Ask her out of respect for all your years of marriage and for the sake of your children to go to the Doctor for a complete Phy. CBC, Depression survey, etc....... Ask her to go for independent counciling<BR> joint if she will. If; she rejects all these request tell her you love her and that you want to save the marriage but you will not stand in the way. Give her love and support but make it very clear you want her as your wife for all time.<BR>

<BR> It hay be a Medical problem. Ask her out of respect for all your years of marriage and for the sake of your children to go to the Doctor for a complete Phy. CBC, Depression survey, etc....... Ask her to go for independent counciling<BR> joint if she will. If; she rejects all these request tell her you love her and that you want to save the marriage but you will not stand in the way. Give her love and support but make it very clear you want her as your wife for all time.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by billiam1:<BR><B>Joe,<BR>I tried to find clues as to why as you state your Christian wife and her Christian family have turned ooon you far enought to support her divorce proceedings. I understand why the divorce papers say irroconcilable differences and that is because that is what most divorce attorneys adivise to make things simpler and move faster. Also because most people dopn't want to make public why they are seeking divorce, they believe their spouse knows the reason and that is enough. If you truly don't know why your wife is divorcing you ASK and I'm sure that she will tell you. Without this information there is no chance of asking for forgiveness and working towards reconciliation.<P>As I told you in earlier writings my wife had an affair. I filed in much the same way because I felt that it would be wrong to reveal my wifes sin, it's up to God. When she had to tell her family, they were very angry with her and they're not even Christians. Your wifes family must feel that whatever you have done justifies divorce or they wouldn't be supporting. After she tells you why and if it's true, then accept what she says, but if her statement is false go to them with the truth. I'm going to list a few things that I think of what would illict family support ofr divorce: adultery, physical or emotional abuse, abandonment, drug or alcohol abuse, criminal behavior, lying or cheating without remorse, leaving the Christian faith for another religion. I would find it hard to believe that her Christian family would support her without cause when my wife's non-christian family didn't support her actions and requested me to continue being apart of their family.<P>I would strongly disagree with the statement that you will have to pay for what you've done, but would accept consequences for your action. Once you are forgiven, you're set free from the obligation of debt.<P>This forum offers a level of animinity because we don't have to reveal who we are allowing us the freedom to be honest about who we are without fear of being judged. It also allows us to vent our frustrations, seek guidence and support from others who are going through or have gone through divorce.<P>You have spent a great abount of time making negative statements about your wife, that's normal with what you are going through right now, but you have said little about your part in the demise of your marriage. Joe it's difficult to to adivse or even relate if we don't have a balanced picture of your marriage. Your not knowing why you're hearded for divorce may be an indication of your marriage problems in that you are might be in great denial as to your part of this marriage failure.<P>None of us ae perfect are perfect and you don't have to be perfect either for us to accept and help you. You have stated that you have drawn closer to God and have changed the way that you live your life and practice your faith. Each one of us is growing in knowledge and faith as we choose and it sounds like this divorce has been a wakeup call for you. Your actions now will take time to bear the fruit of your labors just like your actions in the past are now bearing very negative fruit. Here is one example from your writings. You said that you knew the word of God said not not go around talking to people about your wife and her shortcomings, but you felt that saving your marriage was more important. YOu felt that you knew more than God and chose to disobey Him. Looking back now, do you really think that going around telling everyone helped or hindered your cause? My guess is that your wife can't see the changes you have made because all she seeing now is a guy bashing her to all her friends.This is why God gave us the instruction to guard our tongues because of the damage they can cause.<BR>Each time I have ignored God's principles I have alway bore negative fruit and sometimes I've done the same thign several times until I realized how foolish I was and change what I was doing to Gods way. I'm a slow learner at times.<P>Joe the fruit of my acions in my marriage created an enviroment conducive to adltery and divorce. I worked all the time or was involved in my children's activities that I neglected my wife. She in turn went out and found someone to fill her emotional and physical needs that obviously I had not fulfilled. Does that justify her actions, no, but I understand and accept my responsibility for the demise of my marriage.<P>Finally you state that you have released your wife, then let your actions be congruent with tat statement. Trust God to work on her and heart. Nothing you say will change her heart, but your actions just might. I would sit down with her and find out what you have done, and ask for forgiveness, accept responsibility for your actions and offer to make ammends without the the intent of reconciliation, but because it's Gods way of living our life. I would then attempt to work out a plan that would allow you to live peacefully together until you seperate upon divorce. Attempt to minimize conflict by putting inot writing agreements on how you two will run the house and pay the bills. I remember when I did this, it took several hours of looking at what it cost to run the house and take care of the childrens needs. In the end, I paid far more than my wife, but she took care of most of the childrens needs, ccoking, cleaning laundry. Plus I make more money than her so I paid a higher percentage of my income in an attempt to be fair and just. These things we did so that our divorce would have a minimal impact as possible on the children. <P>I know that by what you have stated that your wifeis having some emotional problems and maybe with this it will assist her in regaining herself just like you have this divorce has drawn you closer to God and shown you your shortcomings. Remember this, the divorce is never fianl until the paperwork is signed by both. Just maybe, by faith, while you ae working together she will be able to see the new man you have become and her heart will soften towards you. I know that last statement will take faith, but we are called to live a life of faith. Even after the paparwork is signed you will always be a part of her life because of the children. Couples have rekindling their relationship after all has settled down, letting the past hurts and failure heal with time and space. But the more contensious you are towards divorce the less chance you will have at ever reconciling or even just being friends.<P>Joe, may God be with you and help you search your heart, just as David searched his heart before God so that he would not sin against Him. I've spent the last 5 years on my face before God and He continually reveals Himself to me and shows me who I really am, not how I perceive myself. I am a sinner saved by the grace of God. Each day I fall short of His glory, but He restore my faith and me. His word is a light unto my feet and the measure of my conduct. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Bill<BR>Please believe I would take the blame for everything if it would help. I have been far from perfect, but I insist I did not know I was doing ANYTHING that she found bothersome EXCEPT she felt I watched too much TV and I complained about some organizational things around the house. <BR>She now says I didn't do ANYTHING right for over 20 years---come on give me a break. I loved (and still do) my wife. <BR>She was a very nice person, who was sensitive towards most peole. We could talk about spiritual things and I truely enjoyed being around her.<BR>She stopped being tender toward me, but I am sure she feels it was mutual. <BR>We could have straightened things out if she would have chosen to see a counselor but that is not what she chose.<BR>Have a heart, I have done some inconsistant things here but I've been trying, sometimes the wrong way that's all, I'm human.<BR>I read your advice, but I am giving up. Today my lawyer told she is serving me interrogatories. You may have a better understanding of what they are than I do. They make me prove my finances are what I claim. She now even thinks I am a sneak and a liar. I'm not.<BR>I'm not a perfect guy, and I never was, but I love my wife as much as the day is long. I got married to honor my committments.<P>Joe<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Yesitcan!:<BR><B> <BR> It hay be a Medical problem. Ask her out of respect for all your years of marriage and for the sake of your children to go to the Doctor for a complete Phy. CBC, Depression survey, etc....... Ask her to go for independent counciling<BR> joint if she will. If; she rejects all these request tell her you love her and that you want to save the marriage but you will not stand in the way. Give her love and support but make it very clear you want her as your wife for all time.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Dear Yes<BR>According to my pastor, who she did counsel with briefly, she is depressed and her depression manifests itself in her eating disorder. She has been on medication for it for a long time (at least five years). I never knew enough about eating disorders, but I always supported her. She is seeing a secular therapist right now, but I am sure her therapist is telling her to go ahead and divorce if she wants. I appreciate your suggestions but she will not talk to me about anything that has to do with us. <P>Joe<P>

I'm not going to get in too deep about this discussion, but this statement caught me.<P>"I'm going to list a few things that I think of what would illict family support ofr divorce: adultery, physical or emotional abuse, abandonment, drug or alcohol abuse, criminal behavior, lying or cheating without remorse, leaving the Christian faith for another religion."<P>Not only are adultery and the others NOT grounds for divorce, they are GROUNDS FOR FORGIVENESS. You can seek the infallible word of God to look for the grounds for divorce, but you will not find them. The closest you get to is adultery, and the biblical definition refers to adultery as fornication before the marriage covenant is sealed. In addition, the book of Hosea is an example of a spouse forgiving adultery. <P>"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires; and will turn away from the truth, and will turn aside to myths." 2 Timothy 4:3-4

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cbrixius:<BR><B>I'm not going to get in too deep about this discussion, but this statement caught me.<P>"I'm going to list a few things that I think of what would illict family support ofr divorce: adultery, physical or emotional abuse, abandonment, drug or alcohol abuse, criminal behavior, lying or cheating without remorse, leaving the Christian faith for another religion."<P>Not only are adultery and the others NOT grounds for divorce, they are GROUNDS FOR FORGIVENESS. You can seek the infallible word of God to look for the grounds for divorce, but you will not find them. The closest you get to is adultery, and the biblical definition refers to adultery as fornication before the marriage covenant is sealed. In addition, the book of Hosea is an example of a spouse forgiving adultery. <P>"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires; and will turn away from the truth, and will turn aside to myths." 2 Timothy 4:3-4</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Cbrixius<BR>I agree, Amen. What do you thing about church discipline? Our church is definitely going to begin the process based on Matt.18. I don't view this so much as an effort to win her back but as fulfilling a scriptual obligation? Also hopefully it will put the scriptures that show what she is doing wrong, in her face. However I don't know how it will affect me with us being in the same house and how my children will react to the discipline. Only one child goes to church with me, the other goes with her. I will not have my son in the service when the discipline takes place.<P>Joe <P>

Cbrixius,<BR>You misunderstood what I stated, I said reasons why a family might support their daughter in devorce proceedings, I have never stated that those grounds are scriptial grounds for divorce. I will state that adultery is grounds for divorce as per Jesus's statement and disagree with your interpetation of divorce. I will agree that all counts that I stated are grounds to ask for forgiveness, but I also state that God's principles and laws are in place so that we will not hve to face the consequences of our sins. Someone could forgive andultery, but the damage that adultery causes and the effect on both parties are still in place. Also, with adultery, you break the marriage covenant and enter into a new covenant with the person you slept with. This is why Christ Allows divorce for adultery. Let me restate, ALLOWS, but is not required with Jesus giving the offended party the option. Divorce shuld not be used or viewed as a punishment, but as a direct result of adultery. <P>Jumping to 2 Timothy 4:3-4 reference I would agree with the point you're attempting to make and that is why we have so many different religious denominations, and that is the danger of selecting individual scriptures and basing a doctrine on that scripture. We must learn to read the scriptures to learn Gods principles and how they apply to our lives. We must not attempt to use scripture to justify our actions, but follows the principles the scriptures teach us on living in this world.<P>Two things or quotes that I have noticed being used to justify action here in Marriage Builders forum is, "God hates divorce." I agree with the statement but accept Gods exceptions because He gives the exception base on His wisdon and Knowlege of sexual sin and the fact that we live in a broken world. In a perfect world, sin and divorce will not be an issue, but here on earth they are and they carry consequences because of the resutlts actins have here based on Gods laws. In the church we have to be careful how we treat and judge the divorced person by taking into account the reason for divorce and hold that reason up to the light of scripture instead of judging all divorcees the same. Second, I have read it stated over and over again, divorce is not God's will. Yes, Gods design for the world was one man, one woman, but once sin enters the picture, God allows for, by His grace exceptions based on His knowlege,not ours.<P>Cbrixius, Joe is not dealing with adultery because in earlier statements he made it clear that he has not ever,nor did he beleive his spouse has ever committed adultery. If I'm wrong in this assumtion Joe, I apologize, but this is what you have lead me to beleive by what you have written based on your statements that your not knowing what you have done for your loving wife to want to divorce you and you have made no statement stating that your wife has committed adultery, but stated she is having emotional problems at the present time.<P>The reason I spent so much time clarifing what I beleive is the one reason Jesus stated that divorce is permissable was to help you look at what the grounds in which you could ask the church to step in with your wife. The one difficulty today with church disapline is that there are so many churches and churches are not community based any longer. When the scriptures were written churches there was only one church and the church body was the center of community life. Today, that is not so, which greatly hinders the chuch in administering church discipline. I say that not to detour you but to let you know the difficulty you might be facing and the possible limited results you could achieve. I remember discussing this with my pastor and because my wife was no longer attending the church all that could be done was for her membership to be revoked, which was done but really didn't matter to her. If you are attending the same church then by all means I would encourge getting your pastor involved.<P>As for having children present at the church discipline meeting for your wife, I would encourage you to have them there with you so they can see the results of disobeying Gods commands and see first hand the consequences of sin. tht is why the final stage of church discipline is a public service. If the service is done in love and compassion with the objective of bringing her back and restoring her to the faith then there should be nothing to fear with having your children at the service.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by billiam1:<BR><B>Cbrixius,<BR>You misunderstood what I stated, I said reasons why a family might support their daughter in devorce proceedings, I have never stated that those grounds are scriptial grounds for divorce. I will state that adultery is grounds for divorce as per Jesus's statement and disagree with your interpetation of divorce. I will agree that all counts that I stated are grounds to ask for forgiveness, but I also state that God's principles and laws are in place so that we will not hve to face the consequences of our sins. Someone could forgive andultery, but the damage that adultery causes and the effect on both parties are still in place. Also, with adultery, you break the marriage covenant and enter into a new covenant with the person you slept with. This is why Christ Allows divorce for adultery. Let me restate, ALLOWS, but is not required with Jesus giving the offended party the option. Divorce shuld not be used or viewed as a punishment, but as a direct result of adultery. <P>Jumping to 2 Timothy 4:3-4 reference I would agree with the point you're attempting to make and that is why we have so many different religious denominations, and that is the danger of selecting individual scriptures and basing a doctrine on that scripture. We must learn to read the scriptures to learn Gods principles and how they apply to our lives. We must not attempt to use scripture to justify our actions, but follows the principles the scriptures teach us on living in this world.<P>Two things or quotes that I have noticed being used to justify action here in Marriage Builders forum is, "God hates divorce." I agree with the statement but accept Gods exceptions because He gives the exception base on His wisdon and Knowlege of sexual sin and the fact that we live in a broken world. In a perfect world, sin and divorce will not be an issue, but here on earth they are and they carry consequences because of the resutlts actins have here based on Gods laws. In the church we have to be careful how we treat and judge the divorced person by taking into account the reason for divorce and hold that reason up to the light of scripture instead of judging all divorcees the same. Second, I have read it stated over and over again, divorce is not God's will. Yes, Gods design for the world was one man, one woman, but once sin enters the picture, God allows for, by His grace exceptions based on His knowlege,not ours.<P>Cbrixius, Joe is not dealing with adultery because in earlier statements he made it clear that he has not ever,nor did he beleive his spouse has ever committed adultery. If I'm wrong in this assumtion Joe, I apologize, but this is what you have lead me to beleive by what you have written based on your statements that your not knowing what you have done for your loving wife to want to divorce you and you have made no statement stating that your wife has committed adultery, but stated she is having emotional problems at the present time.<P>The reason I spent so much time clarifing what I beleive is the one reason Jesus stated that divorce is permissable was to help you look at what the grounds in which you could ask the church to step in with your wife. The one difficulty today with church disapline is that there are so many churches and churches are not community based any longer. When the scriptures were written churches there was only one church and the church body was the center of community life. Today, that is not so, which greatly hinders the chuch in administering church discipline. I say that not to detour you but to let you know the difficulty you might be facing and the possible limited results you could achieve. I remember discussing this with my pastor and because my wife was no longer attending the church all that could be done was for her membership to be revoked, which was done but really didn't matter to her. If you are attending the same church then by all means I would encourge getting your pastor involved.<P>As for having children present at the church discipline meeting for your wife, I would encourage you to have them there with you so they can see the results of disobeying Gods commands and see first hand the consequences of sin. tht is why the final stage of church discipline is a public service. If the service is done in love and compassion with the objective of bringing her back and restoring her to the faith then there should be nothing to fear with having your children at the service.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Bill<BR>My wife has not committed adultry to the best of my knowledge. To the best of my knowledge there is no other man. There may be a man or two that is interested in her at work however, I know because I intercepted a note from an admirer of hers. <BR>Believe me I HAD NO IDEA SHE WAS UNHAPPY IN OUR MARRIAGE OR WITH ME. Things could have been better, I suggested we go for marriage counseling many times the past three years because I believed things could have been improved, but she was not interested. She even initiated an intimate time (I am trying to be descreet here) exactly one week before all this came down, and for her to initiate anthing intimate is very unusual. <BR>Neither one of us was where we should have been spiritually. We were having family devotions, which I lead, with our two children nightly however.<BR>Her perception of many things is different than mine however. Even the devotions she remembers as being perhaps once a week. I asked both my children (separately) how often we had devotions and they both agreed it was nightly while only missing occassionally. <BR>Did I do wrong? Of course, but I would have liked to have a chance to be a better husband. Even my pastor said that my wife refuses to take responsiblity for any of the problems in our marriage, when face facts, it does take two.<P>Joe <P>

Amen Cbrixmus, I couldnt agree with you more. I think im the modern day Hosea because my story is very simular. Many are looking for answers to questions only God knows. When our situations first hit, we try to figure them out. We try to figure God out. The fact is, we are in spiritual warfare. The devil is out to destroy us , our mates and our marriages. he will use everything that can be used againts us. People, family, church family, depression, etc. When we try to figure it all out, then we really are not trusting in God, but our own strenth. You got to get it into your spirit, that the devil is not going to win this war, simply because we trust God for the victory in His time, in His way. Most give God a year and give up, thinking it was Gods will that the marriage ends. Is that what the bible says? Nope. Its says wait patiently on God. Our mates are victims of the enemy. Taken prisoner, and brainwashed(deceived) againts us. We need to love and forgive them, and continue to pray for them and not weary. We find out how much we really love them when our marriages are attacked. We also find out how much we really trust God. Many of our families, christian or otherwise are easy puppets for the enemy to control againts us. Its very effective. Most of our friends have divorced and want us to join them in their misery, so they pretend it was the best thing they ever did. The bible says they think its strange when we dont join them in their sin and take the wide road.<P>Christ layed His life down for us sinners. We nailed Him to the cross. Why are so many unwilling to lay down their selfish lives for their mates, whom they claimed to love with all their hearts, until of course things change. What changed is the enemy has attacked them. They are not the enemy. Let us continue to trust God to restore our mates hearts and our marriages, and let nothing shake us. What can be shaken will be shaken. God put us here to glorify His name, not to satisfy our selfish needs. When we glorify Him, we find peace no matter how bad things look. Easier said than done i know. It took me a few years to get past the yeah right, its all over but the cryin, but somehow God gave me strenth when i had none left, and when i asked God to help me in my unbelief that He would do anything good in my life for the rest of my days(i was angry at God)He acually honored that prayer and helped me. <P>Dear Lord, i pray that you would give all of us here at MB the encouragement to make it the rest of the way, when we loose hope, and give us your strenth to see past our circumstances and help us in our unbelief in times of doubt. Lord i lift our wayward mates up to you that you would change thheir hearts and turn them back to you and us Lord. Come againts the enemy Lord for what he has done to our mates. Turn this all around for good Lord. May your name be glorified. In Jesus name, Amen<BR>Mark

Totally off topic but ...<P>Lostpup,<P>I remembered that you are also in the UK. I would be interested in hearing your story.<P>Email plecostomous@hotmail.com if you are up for a chat sometime.<P>Plec.

Plec, im acually in the US on the west coast. Do you live in the UK? Wish i did...<BR>Mark

Joe the librarian,<P>I don't know your situation very well. But your quote of "How can she be so cheerful" did catch my eye. My husband and I are going through a divorce and I am sure he is asking that question almost every day. I have heard him say to me several times "How can you be so cheerful?" Once saying something like "You are a very cold person and a uncaring person." It eats him up inside for him to see me happy. I am only sad when the subject of he and I comes up. This is because during our marriage he has hurt me deeply and our marriage is the only thing in my life that does make me sad. I see him slowly slipping in to a major depression and although I am not in love with him anymore, I do worry about him. I wonder how this can be healthy for him and what purpose would it serve if I to were to be defeated by this horrible torment we are both going through. Well, he doesn't understand my personality is to not show my emotions on the outside and also to fight depression and any part of being sad. By nature I am just a cheerful person. Also, several months before we separated I did fight a major depression. This was the only time in my life, I found myself so incredibly depressed. It scared me and now that I am through the depression, I never want to let it take over again. It make me realize how depression can take over so quickly. I am not going to let this tear me up inside and destroy me, but more than that I need to remain strong and happy for the children's sake. Although, deep inside I am tormented by this every day. The last thing I ever wanted was for us to be divorced. I just wanted to tell you not to feel so bad just because she is happy on the outside. She is just handling things differently than you.<P>Also, I would like to say if she is cheerful until the discussion turns to you and her, then maybe you should be asking why that is. Maybe you do need to change or maybe not, but I do think it is time you take a good hard look at you and what you bring to your marriage. Also, you may have already read it, but the book "Men are from mars, women are from venus" is an excellent book for you to read or go back and reread.<P>Good luck.<BR>Anna

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Anna2000:<BR>[B]Joe the librarian,<P>I don't know your situation very well. But your quote of "How can she be so cheerful" did catch my eye. My husband and I are going through a divorce and I am sure he is asking that question almost every day. I have heard him say to me several times "How can you be so cheerful?" Once saying something like "You are a very cold person and a uncaring person." It eats him up inside for him to see me happy. I am only sad when the subject of he and I comes up. This is because during our marriage he has hurt me deeply and our marriage is the only thing in my life that does make me sad. I see him slowly slipping in to a major depression and although I am not in love with him anymore, I do worry about him. I wonder how this can be healthy for him and what purpose would it serve if I to were to be defeated by this horrible torment we are both going through. Well, he doesn't understand my personality is to not show my emotions on the outside and also to fight depression and any part of being sad. By nature I am just a cheerful person. Also, several months before we separated I did fight a major depression. This was the only time in my life, I found myself so incredibly depressed. It scared me and now that I am through the depression, I never want to let it take over again. It make me realize how depression can take over so quickly. I am not going to let this tear me up inside and destroy me, but more than that I need to remain strong and happy for the children's sake. Although, deep inside I am tormented by this every day. The last thing I ever wanted was for us to be divorced. I just wanted to tell you not to feel so bad just because she is happy on the outside. She is just handling things differently than you.<P>Also, I would like to say if she is cheerful until the discussion turns to you and her, then maybe you should be asking why that is. Maybe you do need to change or maybe not, but I do think it is time you take a good hard look at you and what you bring to your marriage. Also, you may have already read it, but the book "Men are from mars, women are from venus" is an excellent book for you to read or go back and reread.<P>Good luck.<P>Anna<BR>I sincerely appreciate your suggestions but I will tell you that I am the most introspective person alive right now. Many times a day I quote Psalms 139:23&24, "Search me, O God and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting". Believe me I am a better man that I was 6 months ago when this all began. I am a better man for the sake of our relationship hoping my wife will notice and care, but she doesn't. But God notices. I can only be the best me I can be for the sake of my walk with God. My walk with the Lord is a minute by minute battle so that I will never be what I was before this happened. I look at this as a spiritual wake up call. But my wife doesn't care.<P>I am responsible. I could have been a better husband. I could have been a better spiritual leader. I could have been a better example, but now it really looks like I won't get a chance. I married for life and 20 years is certainly a large part of my life. God is refining me right now and I know God loves me but it hurts so bad that I have to go through this refining furnace to come out more useful for God on the other side. I do deserve this, but my children certainly don't. My 15 year old daughter doesn't have any concerns for God anymore and my wife is not directing her that way, but I still believe it is my fault. <P>I love my wife but I gotta admit right now she is not looking so good to me right now. She was the most beautiful woman alive to me just a few months ago. She had a heart of gold. She has changed. I believe I have changed too, for the better, but she doesn't care. I just have to do what is right as best as I know how and I will come through this hurt, poorer, but hopefully being the man God wants me to be. God chastens his children. He wouldn't allow me to go through this is He didn't love me. I believe I have learned but me wife doesn't care.<P>I am familiar with the book Men Are From Mars. I have not read it but it has been recommended to me. Right now I am reading and listening anything I can get my hands on that may be helpful to me.<P>I didn't know my marriage was in trouble believe me if I knew I would have done something but my wife my (onetime) beautiful wife (who used to have a heart of gold) doesn't care. <P>Didn't you give your husband a chance to correct what you saw as his mistakes? Everyone who is objective (neither a relative or friend or either one of us) like our pastor and one person from our church and another person from another church who are friend's of both of us, believe our marriage shouldn't be breaking up. There is not scriptual reason, and even the psychological reasons are weak but my wife doesn't care. Am I innocent? Certainly not! Would I do something if I could? Well I am a better me now than I ever was before but my wife just doesn't care, but I know I am going through the refining fire of God and I will be more usable for Him when I am through all this.<P>Joe<P><BR>[This message has been edited by Joe the librarian (edited September 09, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by Joe the librarian (edited September 09, 2001).]