</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong> Jave/Tony,

I don't know what part of the U.S. you live in (or even if you live in the U.S. to be honest <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ) but I am doing the mom taxi thing this afternoon. Two teenagers--ya know?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> After taxiing them to the various malls and friends' houses, then I have to make dinner and load dishes and do at least one load of laundry. Thus, when my household duties are complete, I suspect I'll be back about 9pm Mtn. Time (which is 8pm Pacific, 10pm Central, and 11pm Eastern time for those of you who can't translate--haha).

If this is too late for you, I suggest you start a new thread about "Winning Your Wife Back" and give me ONE new thing you learned by re-reading the first few chapters, and one way that you plan to immediately integrate that new learning into your daily life. In my spare moments watching the dryer tumble, I will also re-read the chapters and discuss with you from the point of view of a lady, and what I LONGED from my exH to understand. Okay?? Okay, see ya then!


CJ </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">CJ,

I'm in the midwest. I've done two loads of laundry, a third is about to go in. I've changed the drive belt on my "new" car (a 1995 T-Bird), have now read three chapters in that book, as well as Day 15 of The Purpose Driven life and looked up the scripture references.

Alas, no kids here at the home as DW took them with her.

I still have bills to pay. (Is it disrespect of me to comment that DW didn't bother to take those with her?) As well as I should probably do my monthly report and close some of my calls from earlier this week.

So I empathise with the busy.

What did I learn?

I've comitted almost every penalty in the forward of the book since she has left.

How do I integrate that? Well, if I do nothing, at least I stop the penalties.

However, I don't see that as winning as much as stopping the losing.

I want to win.

Tony
Wondering how to do more than "not lose"

PS, I did read the part about starting a new thread. I can copy this to that new thread.

<small>[ March 07, 2004, 09:47 PM: Message edited by: javaSansContour ]</small>

CJ,

I know you are worried about me losing my love for my wife, and not honoring her, cherishing her, and loving her.

What if that is what I'm supposed to do? My wife has left. She has had at least an emotional affair with another man if not a physical affair. She has withheld information from me that would help me treat her the way she wanted to be treated, she seemed to dislike sex, even on our honeymoon. Or at the very least, she didn't act like she enjoyed it with me.

Now I want my wife back, but I want a marriage that is full of love and passion. I don't want to feel like I'm only a meal ticket that gets some sex service out of a sense of duty maybe once every 4-6 weeks.

I guess my heart is broken and hardened. I feel like my W lied to me. Before we married we talked about sex and about how important we were to each other. We agreed that we should put the other before any other person, children included. I shared with her that I desired to make love with her several times a day, and she said that is what she wanted too.

So that didn't even happen during the honeymoon. That promise was broken. I'm sure I disappointed too. I certainly wasn't romantic. Of course that was no change from dating. You could say the sex was too since we didn't have sex with one another before we married. (However, neither of us were virgins.)

I want her back, but I want a wife who is a willing passionate partner.

I'm praying for this, but what if the woman I want isn't found in my wife? I believe that I have biblical grounds to divorce without guilt or without dishonoring God.

I'm just so confused. I know I also have a daughter that deserves a mom and dad that love each other.

Tony

CJ,

I don't know if I totally destroyed any romantic love, or if there just wasn't any left, but I just got off the phone with W and she keeps telling me what I was afraid of.

She feels her life without me is so much better than her life with me. She feels stressed out talking to me, etc, so she cannot picture us together.

This is hard to overcome, because I did my level best not to LB and think I did a really good job. I asked her permission to talk, and if she had time. I asked her to help me understand her feelings and she said she was always stressed around me.

So, I guess I have to lighten up, huh?

I asked her to paint for me a picture of a happy marriage with me and she says she cannot see that. She doesn't understand how I could still love her. So how do I do more than just tell her that I love her, that I'm devistated by the thought that she will no longer be my wife.

How do I show her that she can relax around me? That her fears are no longer founded?

What I was afraid would happen has happened, she is happier without me than with me, and I apparently have no chance to show her that there is a way for her to be happy with me.

Well, at least I know. I know that I'm not the one who has given up. I will still try to show her a less uptight Tony, and that will make me a better person.

God will have to work in both of our hearts to change the tension between us.

Tony

<small>[ February 22, 2004, 11:41 PM: Message edited by: javaSansContour ]</small>

Java and anyone else who wants to discuss and contribute:

First, I wanted to say that I can hear the sorrow and defeat in your posts, and I truly suggest that you do your best to rest, rest, rest and take care of yourself. I have no reason to think this, but I suspect you are exhausting yourself trying to read and figure this out and find the magic words or magic actions that will "fix" this. I know your heart is broken, your energy is low, and your tears are dry...so do take some time and be extra caring and gentle with yourself, okay? Every day I'm going to ask you what you did to care for yourself. Like you, I tend to read self-help books by the dozens, so for today I bought myself a purely FUN book to read "The King of Torts" by John Grisham. I do this to give myself a break from trying to analyze myself and fix myself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

* * * * *

Okay, now regarding this thread I have a few openning thoughts that I need to share:

This thread is not a "pick on Java" thread, although I see that is kind of what you expect. This is hopefully a learning experience for us all, including me. I am not the nun and I don't have a ruler! heehee <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Next, I won't be "schooling" you, Tony. I'll be openning up about myself and my thoughts and hoping that your heart will be softened and touched by what happened to me.

Now...let's begin with Chapter One. I will share with you my thoughts--I encourage others to comment and share their thoughts--and Java, I want you to read with an open heart and share what you think you heard. Okay? Let's begin!


CJ

CJ,

First, getting schooled isn't a bad thing. I used to make my $$$ teaching. However, that stuff was easy, it was computers. They do exactly what you tell them to do.

If by the first chapter you mean "Pregame Warm-Up..."

What I learned is the games not over till it's over.

HOWEVER, there are no guarantees, and a bit of luck (not that I believe in luck, but I don't know a better word to use) is often needed.

God can create a victory. However, I also know that God will not force me or my wife to do anything, so saving the marriage is NOT certain.

I believe steps one and two are most critical. Avoiding penalties and opening her closed spirit. I have confidence in avoiding the penalties because I can see how they have not worked.

I have less confidence in opening her closed spirit. She is so set that the only path to her continued happiness is a divorce. This part is where I need the miracle.

This miracle is two fold, number one, I must be shown the way to either open that spirit or how to wait for it to be opened. Secondly, her closed spirit must be opened, by my acting as God would have me act, or by the work of the Holy Spirit.

That's what I've learned.

Tony

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:
<strong>I don't know if I totally destroyed any romantic love, or if there just wasn't any left, but I just got off the phone with W and she keeps telling me what I was afraid of.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay...so you have faced your greatest fear and looked it square in the eyes, and you didn't die. Tony, you are much stronger than you think you are. You have had your greatest fear become a reality in your life, and you are not running away. You are facing it and you are brave.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>She feels her life without me is so much better than her life with me. She feels stressed out talking to me, etc, so she cannot picture us together.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't mean this meanly, but of course she feels that way. Let's say she has her own little apartment, okay? She does not need to be afraid in her little apartment. She can paint it red if she wants to and no one yells. She can do whatever she feels like (good or evil) and no one holds her accountable. Most of the stress is gone. She is free to not walk on eggshells and not think of your feelings and not consider you and not try to avoid a fight at every turn. Seriously, Tony, it may be quiet and lonely, but to have the relief of not worrying about what's going to set you off has got to be HUGE.

Thus...we need the book. What you're doing is not working. It is increasing her hurt, not relieving it. In fact, at this time she can not even imagine how you could possibly relieve her pain when you have been the one to cause most of it. It's not fathomable. So, she told you the truth and be thankful for that...the truth. You need to show her that not only will you stop being the one to cause her pain, but you will make amends to her for the past pain you caused AND you will show her how her life will NOT be better without you in it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>This is hard to overcome, because I did my level best not to LB and think I did a really good job. I asked her permission to talk, and if she had time. I asked her to help me understand her feelings and she said she was always stressed around me.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well...this is a little like saying, "Now that I have blown up the bank and utterly destroyed it, I did my best not to kick the teller in the shins." See, for her, there is no Love Bank anymore. There were withdrawals, withdrawals, withdrawals...and then the cement was chipped away...and then there was the last stone pulled out and the bank fell apart into rubble. So now that the bank is gone, there's nothing else TO withdraw. If you LB now, you are grinding up rubble and proving her point. You need to build a whole new bank.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I asked her to paint for me a picture of a happy marriage with me and she says she cannot see that. She doesn't understand how I could still love her. So how do I do more than just tell her that I love her, that I'm devistated by the thought that she will no longer be my wife.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, Tony, her bank is rubble so she can not imagine what a new bank would look like. Plus she'd be nuts to rebuild a bank with the person who destroyed this one. Let the rubble lie and go build a bank on a new site...right? Can you see how she is seeing this a little? A tiny little pin-hole of light creeping in? She can not fathom how you could possibly ease her pain, and at this point, she identifies YOU with HURT. YOU=HURT. So that is the part we need to change...that association. You need to equal love, gentleness, haven and warmth.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>How do I show her that she can relax around me? That her fears are no longer founded?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Her fears ARE founded! That's just the problem. You don't tell a scared child, "Shut up, you don't need to be afraid." You take a scared child and turn on the light and show them they are safe and do actions that show them safety, and then you cuddle with them and comfort them. This is what you do with your wife. Her fears are founded. In her mind, she has reason to be afraid of you, and you just keep telling her "Stop it. You shouldn't be afraid." Take her a show her she is safe--show her by your ACTIONS!! Cuddle with her and comfort her, and if she will not allow you to touch her or comfort her, respect that. Demonstrate that she is safe. Think of her like a scared cat hiding under the bed. If you reach under and grab a scared cat, they will scratch you and fight furiously to get away from you; but if you leave it alone and let it have some time and space, but don't leave it, the cat will eventually come out. Then you can feed it, and it will feel a little bit happy with you (you=good). Then you can pet it, and it will purr (you=happy).

See??


CJ

Ok,

We probably have a month as she is in a hurry to divorce...

What if she is right and I'm not in love with her, but simply scared to not be married?

What about all the things that I'm unhappy about? I know I can't even bring them up right now, and I haven't. However, what if she is unwilling to address any of them?

I know, worry about that when the time comes...

Tony

<small>[ February 23, 2004, 12:02 AM: Message edited by: javaSansContour ]</small>

Oh, and please flesh out what I have to do to show her she is safe around me. It sounds so easy, but it must not come naturally to me, otherwise, she would have felt safe around me the past 7.5 years.

Tony

CHAPTER ONE: PRE-GAME WARMUP

This is an important chapter and deserves time and thought and contemplation. Please do notjust breeze over it to "get to the good stuff." Now, I will say that it seems to me throughout this book that the author takes the football analogy a little too far, but let's see if we can't work with it anyway, shall we? I speak to you in english about my thoughts...not in football. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Okay, one of the first important points in this chapter is that what you are doing is not working. In my own marriage, I tried to anticipate my ex's needs, avoid his wrath, understand his issues, provide for sex within the bounds of our marriage, and be a good housekeeper and mother. Inadvertantly, I became in enabler of unhealthy behavior and codependent. He hurt me and I made a reason/excuse. He hurt me, and I did not allow him to experience the consequences of his actions. He hurt me, and I cried but did nothing about it. I tried to avoid him hurting me by being "perfect" but of course something was always imperfect. I was a willing volunteer to living in an abusive relationship, because it was familiar and I had invested a lot already (in years and financially). What I was doing was NOT working.

My exH did a small hurt, and I didi not say anything. I let resentment build. Another small hurt, and more resentment built. Yet another, and I would explode in anger at level 9, when that particular small hurt was a level 2 hurt. I was abused as a child, and I learned how to deal with hurt by disassociating and stuffing it. So, in my marriage, I "went somewhere else" mentally while he was screaming at me, and I stuffed it. What I was doing was NOT working.

I was so busy with the children and their schools and friends and extra activities, that I was too busy to take care of my appearance and attractiveness. I thought I had a life partner, threw thick and thin, and I let myself get thick thinking he loved me for the beauty that was inner. In fact, he was a human man, and he may have loved some of my innerness, but he could also see--and he lost interest. I was so busy with my own anger and issues, that I found fault with him and nagged and nagged him to change. I was critical and judgemental, because he was screaming and mean. It was tit for tat. I tried but I HURT, so I was mean too. And SHE wasn't. She admired him. She found him interesting and smart and funny. She laughed with him. She kept herself attractive. What I was doing was NOT working.

So, do not just blow past this, Tony. Take your emotional shield off and tell us...what you are doing that is NOT working. Don't reveal more than you are willing to share--I don't mean that. I just mean, if you can't open up and share it, at least open up to yourself and dig deep...what are you doing that is NOT working? Your biggest fear is not that her life is better without you. Your biggest fear is that when you look at yourself, she is right.

**********

Another important concept in this chapter is that the more-of-the-same approach maintains the problem and more likely intensifies it. You've heard of the 180 concept right? When you look at yourself and honestly consider what you are doing that is not working, the next step is to do 180 degrees exactly the opposite. If you are crying and begging her to come back, take a deep breath and tell HER that you are happy to have this chance to be apart from her so that you can have some personal time to yourself. You don't need to be cruel about it--be honest but be 180 degrees different. If you have been panicking and calling all the time, learn meditation to calm yourself and don't call her for two days. She'll wonder what you're up to. Continuing to do the same thing will magnify the problem and make it worse, so do something new and different.

**********

Another important thought in this chapter is to relax and develop a plan. When my exH left me, I became a CJ-puddle and did not stop to thing about what I was doing. I begged, cried, demanded, acted hurt, even threatened...but I did not stop to slow down and think (at least not at first). Then, I did. I stopped the emotional whirlwind and stopped my whirling mind and took an emotional deep breath. I realized that this was not going to be over in a day or an hour, so I had some time. I realized that going off all unprepared and willy nilly was not profitable nor was it going to help me attain my goal (which at the time I thought was saving my marriage--and later I realized was saving me).

Tony, relax. You have time--possibly several months and maybe several years. There is not going to be a "magic fix" to this and there is not one magic action that makes her love you again. This is for the long haul and it's going to take a PLAN. Rest, restore yourself, and calmly come up with your plan.

**********

(con't)


CJ

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong> CHAPTER ONE: PRE-GAME WARMUP

This is an important chapter and deserves time and thought and contemplation. Please do notjust breeze over it to "get to the good stuff." Now, I will say that it seems to me throughout this book that the author takes the football analogy a little too far, but let's see if we can't work with it anyway, shall we? I speak to you in english about my thoughts...not in football. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Okay, one of the first important points in this chapter is that what you are doing is not working. In my own marriage, I tried to anticipate my ex's needs, avoid his wrath, understand his issues, provide for sex within the bounds of our marriage, and be a good housekeeper and mother. Inadvertantly, I became in enabler of unhealthy behavior and codependent. He hurt me and I made a reason/excuse. He hurt me, and I did not allow him to experience the consequences of his actions. He hurt me, and I cried but did nothing about it. I tried to avoid him hurting me by being "perfect" but of course something was always imperfect. I was a willing volunteer to living in an abusive relationship, because it was familiar and I had invested a lot already (in years and financially). What I was doing was NOT working.

My exH did a small hurt, and I didi not say anything. I let resentment build. Another small hurt, and more resentment built. Yet another, and I would explode in anger at level 9, when that particular small hurt was a level 2 hurt. I was abused as a child, and I learned how to deal with hurt by disassociating and stuffing it. So, in my marriage, I "went somewhere else" mentally while he was screaming at me, and I stuffed it. What I was doing was NOT working.

I was so busy with the children and their schools and friends and extra activities, that I was too busy to take care of my appearance and attractiveness. I thought I had a life partner, threw thick and thin, and I let myself get thick thinking he loved me for the beauty that was inner. In fact, he was a human man, and he may have loved some of my innerness, but he could also see--and he lost interest. I was so busy with my own anger and issues, that I found fault with him and nagged and nagged him to change. I was critical and judgemental, because he was screaming and mean. It was tit for tat. I tried but I HURT, so I was mean too. And SHE wasn't. She admired him. She found him interesting and smart and funny. She laughed with him. She kept herself attractive. What I was doing was NOT working.

So, do not just blow past this, Tony. Take your emotional shield off and tell us...what you are doing that is NOT working. Don't reveal more than you are willing to share--I don't mean that. I just mean, if you can't open up and share it, at least open up to yourself and dig deep...what are you doing that is NOT working? Your biggest fear is not that her life is better without you. Your biggest fear is that when you look at yourself, she is right.

**********
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right about what, that she is happier without me than with me? I've already said that, and I believe it is true. She is happier in her own apartment than she is around me. It is true, I can see the tension and unease she has around me.

I feel like the confession of my using Porn and self pleasuring because of the lack of SF while scripturally sound to confess, is yet another reason for her to not trust me, even though she has been offered full access to my computers, everything to check to see that I've not done that since she moved out.

I've completed the Setting Captives Free course and have a victory in that aspect of my life.

And she cannot see that, because she didn't even know that was an issue. I was convince to confess that sin to her, and now she uses it to justify that she is making the right decision.

She doesn't want to hang around to see the changes that have occured in my life.

I understand that behavior made me selfish, that was time and energy I should have used to learn more about her, and to try to be more intimate with her. However, I became frustrated because my every attempt to get closer to her, in both sexual and non-sexual ways seemed to end in failure.

So being open and honest with her has not worked.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

Another important concept in this chapter is that the more-of-the-same approach maintains the problem and more likely intensifies it. You've heard of the 180 concept right? When you look at yourself and honestly consider what you are doing that is not working, the next step is to do 180 degrees exactly the opposite. If you are crying and begging her to come back, take a deep breath and tell HER that you are happy to have this chance to be apart from her so that you can have some personal time to yourself. You don't need to be cruel about it--be honest but be 180 degrees different. If you have been panicking and calling all the time, learn meditation to calm yourself and don't call her for two days. She'll wonder what you're up to. Continuing to do the same thing will magnify the problem and make it worse, so do something new and different.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I may call her about once a week, so I'd hardly say it's panicky or desperate. Seldom do we talk about the relationship. Tonight was different and we talked, we really talked.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

**********

Another important thought in this chapter is to relax and develop a plan. When my exH left me, I became a CJ-puddle and did not stop to thing about what I was doing. I begged, cried, demanded, acted hurt, even threatened...but I did not stop to slow down and think (at least not at first). Then, I did. I stopped the emotional whirlwind and stopped my whirling mind and took an emotional deep breath. I realized that this was not going to be over in a day or an hour, so I had some time. I realized that going off all unprepared and willy nilly was not profitable nor was it going to help me attain my goal (which at the time I thought was saving my marriage--and later I realized was saving me).

Tony, relax. You have time--possibly several months and maybe several years. There is not going to be a "magic fix" to this and there is not one magic action that makes her love you again. This is for the long haul and it's going to take a PLAN. Rest, restore yourself, and calmly come up with your plan.

**********

(con't)


CJ </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The divorce can be final in a matter of weeks. I don't know if I can continue to try if the divorce is complete. That may destroy my love bank for her.

I can see her point, I don't want the old marriage either, and the way she acts right now, she is not really appealing to me.

I don't know if I've addressed your questions. I really need to sleep, but have been unable to fall asleep in the past 30 minutes...

Tony

(slightly off topic, but worth discussing:)

Even if she is in a rush to get a divorce, unless you agree to everything, it does not need to go quickly. I am not advocating instigating a malicious divorce, but unless you lay down your rights to custody, agree 100% on property division and alimony and child support, and are in a "no fault" state, it does not need to go quickly. I do happen to live in a "no fault" state, and I did happen to have a fairly civil and agreeable divorce (relatively speaking) and it took four months from filing to judgment. You probably do have some time here. Not enough to sit around!!

**********

Okay, back to Chapter One. Another HUGE concept in this chapter that is worthy of time and contemplation is "there are no guarantees". At first, like you, I took this in a depressing kind of way--like even if I do all the right things, I still might not save my marriage. But the more I thought about it, the more I knew that I really already knew this...deep down. Even if you become the perfect, loving husband Tony, she may be hardened enough to choose to divorce you--and you can not change her or "make" her love you. Harsh, I know.

Here's what I can guarantee though...if you really look at yourself and work on yourself and draw close to God and become a more godly man, I can guarantee you that this divorce situation will be a victory for you. Here's what I mean. When my exH left me and then continued to commit other affairs while also telling me he was working on the marriage, I was devastated. No matter how much I learned or grew or humbled myself, he was NOT willing to stop having cybersex with other women or one-night-stands. He would NOT soften his heart or even consider truly saving our marriage. BUT...even though our marriage ended, I actually DID grow tremendously. I grew in humility and not only saw the error of my ways but worked on actually being different. I went to counseling and worked on myself. I became more godly and grew MUCH closer to God, so that now God is involved in my everyday life and I can hear Him. I used my exH's life choices as a wake up call to me. Even though our marriage ended, it was a victory for me. Now, I look back on all that hurt and all those tears, and I am thankful for it, because it changed my life so completely.

I know that sounds pretty empty and hollow right now. You want your wife back and you want to be loved RIGHT NOW. Well, I'm going to ask you to trust me on this one. If you use this for good, even if your wife chooses to follow through on the divorce, you will be a better man. I guarantee.

**********

JACK AND DEANNE

I found it interesting in this book that the affair example that the author chose to use was primarily told from the BS point of view. Being a BS myself, I completely understand the doubt, confusion, suspicion, guilt, betrayal, dying inside, hurt, anger, and pain that Deanne felt. But the author does not reveal much of Jack's side, as if Deanne is justified in HER hurt, but Jack is not justified in his.

I'm not sure if this will make much sense, but try to step into the shoes of a WS before you utterly tell them that they are soulless, selfish, thoughtless, cruel family-wreckers. Jack probably dated Deanne for at least a year, and being proper Christian folks, they maybe kissed and petted, but did not actually have intercourse before marriage. They talked about sex and seemed to want the same things, but after the wedding and honeymoon, she was not really as interested in sex as she had indicated. Well...Jack is a good christian man who loves his wife, so he decided to live with it.

They lived in a cute little one-room apartment and then miracle of miracles, one day Deanne told him she was pregnant. Now, one room would not be big enough for a family, so Jack felt some pressure to earn a little more, and he took a part time job on the weekend. He was spending more hours away from Deanne. And after the first baby, a second came along and she wanted a house--not just a rental. So he climbed up the corporate ladder even more and spent more hours away from Deanne.

With two kids all to herself, Deanne began to be harsh with Jack...why didn't he help her with the kids and the house? Why did he have to be gone all those hours? And from the two kids she had gained some weight and he no longer found her as physically attractive. But, how could he tell her that? I mean, she was his wife and the mother of his children! How do you say, "Honey, I'm not attracted to you anymore--you're too fat"? So he began to lose some interest in sex too...and why do the romantic stuff if there's no sex, right? Hey, why would he want to meet her needs when she's not meeting his?

So, she gets tied up in PTA, and soccer-mom, and neighborhood watch, and he gets tied up in work, work, work. Then a new girl gets hired at work, and she is pretty. Not stunning...not a drop dead gorgeous woman, but she's got a figure a little and pretty eyes. But mostly, she looks at Jack without judgment and nagging. She thinks he's smart. She thinks he's funny and witty. She thinks he's fun to be with. She admires him. She flirts a little with him. Nothing big at first, but enough to make him feel good about himself. "I still got it." She looks at him with interest and desire--Deanne looks at him with tired eyes and the same old nag in her throat.

So...the new office girl flirts a little more, and to show her that he won't be embarrassed, he flirts back even a little more. Oh, he justifies that it's just flirting and nothing will come of it. He starts making up reasons to be around her and stays late to spend a little more time with her. Then, one day, she touches his arm and it's like electricity. Deanne doesn't even want to touch him--plus, he's losing his desire to touch her! So the next day at work, Jack hugs the new girl, and it is AWESOME. Someone is excited by him. He has found his new adrenalin. So he makes excuses, lies, anything to be with her. They never sleep together, but one day, Deanne sits outside his office and sees him come out and kiss her....

Hmmm...why do this? Why present the WS's side? Here's why. Because as BS's we tend to sit in pretty high judgment, thinking of our WS's as selfish and heartless, when in reality, we as BS's contributed. Now, the WS's decided to step over the line and not stop things--they are responsible for that part, so don't get me wrong--but it wasn't done in a vacuum. They aren't so selfish and heartless. Just like anybody else, Jack was looking for someone to look at him with love in their eyes, and he wasn't getting that from his wife and he didn't know how to tell her.

So we are back to this: what we are doing is NOT working. Looking at the Jack and Deanne story from Jack's point of view, do you think that if he left Deanne to be with the new girl that if Deanne begged and panicked and cried for him to come back that it would be attractive to him? Or would he probably think, "I was with you and you threw me away. I wanted you to want me enough to admire me and desire me, but you didn't even try! My life is better without you, and now I don't have to listen to you nagging me about the weights around my neck!"

**********

There are some significant choices to be made:

* Are you going to react out of hurt and anger?
Or are you going to respond calmly from your plan?

* Are you going to face your part in this head-on without ducking? Or are you going to run away and blame other and squirm and duck?

* Are you going to face the pain and loneliness and fear? Or are you going to numb it with addictions to food, drink, drugs or sex?

* Are you going to find the treasure in this trial? Or are you going to bury it?

* Are you going to humble yourself and learn? Or are you going to act like you know it all?

* Are you going to admit the error of your own ways (since you are the only one you can change)? Or are you going to allow pride to rule you and make you incapable of admitting to yourself that you made mistakes.


Tony...this is heady stuff, and it's only Chapter ONE!! Chapter Two: Openning a Closed Spirit will probably take awhile, because once a spirit is closed, it is like a protective wall of shields. You can not open it by force, and it covers a LOT of hurt. So rest now, and get ready for tommorrow.

Your assignments:
1) Do something to care for you. Rest. Renew yourself. Listen to music you like. Go to a park you like. Light some candles if that soothes you. Do something!

2) Read what I've written. If you have questions we will talk and will not go onto Chapter Two until we're done. If other people write, read what they write too.

3) Pray for willingness to open your heart.

Meanwhile, I have a big day ahead of me: school, work, and Girl Nite with my daughter. See you tomorrow night again about 9pm-ish!


CJ

Java/Tony,
First off, I feel your pain. I have been doing my best to not LB and succeeded for thepast 2-3 weeks. Then last night, I went food shopping for her befause she was so drained. Then we were suppose to take care of our D's hair last night, the lice are back <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> , at 10 pm. I fell asleep on the floor. She had D wake me up, and W said she would take care of D's hair in the AM. So I am half asleep and doing my laundry when she complains about the grocery list and why didn't I scratch things off? What did I buy, I don't do things like normal people. (I '+' in front of each item I bought, and a '-' with a circle around it for each item I couldn't find). She said she didn't understand what I was doing, and laced into me, half asleep. So I took, she said grabbed and touched her, the pen and circled the entire item. I then went to bed on the sofa, my current bed <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> . A few minutes later she wnet totally nuts, and of course, everything I do comes back to the A. She was going to do a cake for me (have to pay her) for my church's craft show. She was going to charge me $40 for it. Now she says why should she give me a break, she hopes I die. Anyway I digress. I have slowly learned to stop LBing, but the devil found the one spot I forgot to protect, my I am tired, I don't THINK.

Secondly, what is this book you and CJ are talking about?

Thirdly, Below is my email. If you want to send me an email, I will send you my number and we can chat if you want to. I too am close to D. She has filed and yesterday she brought up that in her tirade. Even though I am the WS and not the BS like you, perhaps we can help eachother. This whole mess has brought me closer to God and I do feel Him in my life. Just don't feel like He is working in my W's life, but, that is my failing to understand His ways are not my ways.

"Father. Cover your son, Tony, with Your love and peace. Give him wisdom to see the error that he has made and to strive to be more like Your Son, Jesus Christ. Guide him in his actions and words to his wife. Convict his heart (and his head) when he is not living his life as you want.
Comfort all of us here who seek restoration to our marriages and more importantly, salvation of our spouses (be they BS or WS).
This we ask through the Most Precious Blood of Jesus Christ that was poured out so we may enjoy eternity with You. Amen."

ttsmm

There is so much here to read, and I was paged again at about 4AM. So I'll look at it after 6pm Central

Thanks that I'm getting rid of the pager after 5pm.

DW called me this AM asking if I could pick up the kids since she wasn't feeling well.

I guess I'm good for something.

Tony

PS ttsmm,

The book is "Winning Your Wife Back Before It's Too Late" by Gary Smalley

t

<small>[ February 23, 2004, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: javaSansContour ]</small>

I will get back to this topic. My brain is really tired, but I know the pager will not wake me tonight.

However, I'm setting the alarm for 4:30AM. I need to get back to my routine, and devotions early in the AM is part of that.

See you in about 6 hours.

Tony

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:
<strong> What if that is what I'm supposed to do? My wife has left. She has had at least an emotional affair with another man if not a physical affair. She has withheld information from me that would help me treat her the way she wanted to be treated, she seemed to dislike sex...Or at the very least, she didn't act like she enjoyed it with me.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tony, I have pondered this post, and I do not have an answer for you. There is not some action that you can do, and I can't "make it better for you." I can say that I understand what you're going through...and I can say that I've been where you are--wishing desperately that your spouse would just be honest with you and tell you truthfully what they want, instead of the twisted, inconsistent squirming and avoiding and denying.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Now I want my wife back, but I want a marriage that is full of love and passion. I don't want to feel like I'm only a meal ticket that gets some sex service out of a sense of duty maybe once every 4-6 weeks...I guess my heart is broken and hardened. I feel like my W (cheated me). </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hear ya. I think you may be correct in that right now, you are so exhausted and broken that your heart is hard--it's just too hard to keep hurting and hurting and hurting all the time. Tony, I suspect you've hit a bit of a wall, almost like the adrenalin crash. It was such a shock to your system that for a while you ran on pure, raw ENERGY to figure it out and work on it and do something and cry and throw up and just FIX IT!! Now, the energy is fading, and to protect yourself from further hurt, you're hardening a bit.

I think we may need to shift our focus from Winning Back Your Wife, to saving Tony.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I'm praying for this, but what if the woman I want isn't found in my wife? I believe that I have biblical grounds to divorce without guilt or without dishonoring God.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Frankly, I think we all struggle with this. Like most everyone here on this board, I strongly believe that marriage is a lifetime commitment, stronger than just a "vow"--it's a blood bond. My exH was a non-believer, had affairs, had mental illness and sexual addiction, had physical illnesses, and was abusive--I believe if anyone had "biblical grounds" to divorce it was me. Shoot, he was a non-believer and wanted to leave me! Anyway, the point is that I think a marriage is for better/for worse, in sickness and in health--and that includes mental health. I believe I had a duty to my husband--especially if he was seeking treatment and working on his various ailments.

When he left me and the kids so he could be free to pursue his "lifestyle", I had no idea whether I should wait on God to reconcile us or look for a new mate some day or what. I had no idea whether I should consider myself a "free" woman or consider myself married and dedicated to God's service or what. I knew that I was created with a strong desire to share myself and my life with others, and I also knew that I was created in such a way that I enjoy intimacy and marriage. I knew that I wished that my exH would WANT to recover and WANT to be faithful--but reality was that he did not want that at all. So, how does that all fit together?? I don't know. Like you, I'd like a close, intimate connection with someone on a physical/emotional/mental/spiritual level--and that doesn't seem likely with my exH...so where does that leave me??

Here's what it boils down to, Tony: I don't know. I don't know waht "to do" to win back your wife. I don't know how to soften your heart again. And I don't know if you will have the loving, passionate relationship that you long for with THIS wife. With God all things are possible. BUT you know what? I DO know who knows these things--and that comforts me. God knows our hearts and He has a plan. That is comforting. Our only goal needs to be to get in sync with God and stay focused on that. If we are in God's will, then what is supposed to happen WILL happen. Of THAT I can be sure...and so can you.


CJ

CJ,

I have moments where I realize I have everything I need, but not necessarily all of what I want.

I don't think my desires are sinful, but yet they may be in the way of getting closer to God.

I slept through my alarm today, that is how tired I was. (Just an FYI, I usually get up BEFORE the alarm.)

I've read what you have written as well as the posts on the other thread and have a lot to ponder. I know I will be ok, and I believe that my wife is saved.

In some ways I can understand, she is just going after the desires of her heart, to be happy and at peace.

I don't wish her ill will, and while some say that some catastrophic "hitting bottom" may bring her back, I don't really want to see her hit bottom. I'm sure you all understand that.

I'll try to write more tonight, to read a bit more and put more effort into my answers.

I just wanted to let you know I'm still tuned in, but last week just ran over me, in a manner of speaking.

Tony

Java,

You know what? Let's take the night off. You're exhausted--physically, emotionally and mentally--and I'm not sure long dissertations on "Winning Your Wife Back" are what you need to restore your soul. How about if you do something just FUN, and something renewing, and I will do the same. Then, about 9pm MT, I'll tell you what I did and you tell me what you did.

Remember, even Psalm 23 says, "The Lord is my Shepherd, I shall not want. He maketh me to lie down in green pastures. He leadeth me beside the still waters. He restoreth my soul." I am going to "Maketh" you lie down! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I think I shall listen to some Frank Sinatra tunes, and read my "for fun" book: "King of Torts" by John Grisham...then go to bed early. But...I'll check back at 9pm to tell you if I did what I planned or something else. BTW, having FUN and doing something FUN is one of the ways that a person can re-discover joy. So, if you've always liked to color, buy some crayons and a Peanuts colorbook and go for it! haha <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />


CJ

Do you know how hard it is for an ESTJ to just have fun without a plan, LOL?

I've gotta get my financial papers in order for the visit to the lawyer tomorrow. Bank and brokerage statements, credit card statements, W2's and such.

I'll try to have some fun in there too...

Tony

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:
<strong> Do you know how hard it is for an ESTJ to just have fun without a plan, LOL?

Tony </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh my heavens, Tony, we are in trouble!! My exH is an ESTJ and I am an INFP--natural opposites!! OY!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> No wonder we can't communicate well. I should have known. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Okay, before I start my shift into ESTJ-communication mode, let me tell you about my fun. I went bowling with some friends, and I bowled 161, 117, and 136. Respectable, hey? I had a VERY good time and once laughed so hard I thought I would pee my pants. This is something that INFP chicks do when we are ROFLMAO.

After bowling, I got myself an ice cream sundae (my absolute weakness is ice cream), and then ate each bite slowly and lusciously. YUM!! What a treat!!! I also took a drive and listened to some Sheryl Crow, so that was mellow. In a few moments, I'm going to be coloring.

* * * * *

Okay, I'm ready to shift into ESTJ-communication mode. You like facts, plans, schedules, thoughts, and black and white, right?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> You need to organize your financial papers?? Well, how about if you organize your finances alphabetically by category, in date order? Wouldn't that be fun?? Then you could jot down some facts relating to those financial papers in chronological order. WEEE! Finally, one big dose of Larry King Live, and you should be right as rain! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Soooo...for tonight we take the night off, have whatever our own definition of fun is, and start up refreshed and renewed tomorrow night. I will do my best to remember that you are ESTJ and relate to facts and figures, but if I digress into feelings and perceptions, will you just poke me in the ribs? Thanks.


CJ

P.S. I almost forgot! Your assignment! What do you think think about this statement: "The Greater the hurt, the longer the healing time"? Do you agree or disagree? How great do you think the hurt is? Quantify it if you can (scale of 1 to 10 maybe) or use some other means of measurement that seems to fit your situation. How much healing time do you think is needed right now? Do you think you fully understand the depth of her pain? Do you think she is more of a "feeler" than you are?

Let me give you an example: if my exH were to come to the Lord today and begin living today like a godly man; faithful, gentle, and loving husband; and thoughtful and devoted father, how much healing time would I need to trust him again? How great is my pain over the way I was treated abusively--the abandonment--and the multiple affairs? On a scale of 1-10 (1 being very little hurt, and 10 being complete emotional devastation verging on breakdown), I would say 9+. Because I have walked with God and some time has elapsed and I eased some of my own pain, it is probably 7-ish right now. But the plain and simple truth is that my understanding of life as I knew it was destroyed by someone I loved, and so the healing time I would require if he were to try to make it right with me and reconcile starting today would be great. I don't trust him and I don't trust me with him. I am afraid of him. I don't believe he loves me. I am afraid of the devastation of another affair and do not really even want to risk it again.

My point here is this. My pain is great. The healing time required would be long--and that's assuming he started trying to make amends today and did NO FURTHER DAMAGE. So, can you see it from your wife's side at all? What do you extrapolate would be her pain rating--and healing time? Do you have any thoughts about this or any questions?

I'll expect at least one paragraph-post-topic-or something. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

CJ,

Seems like you think ESTJ is a bad thing. If you read my personality profile there is a lot of good in there.

http://www.personalitypage.com/ESTJ.html

I have to say that yes, I'm guilty of applying logic to a situation that requires emotional sensitivity. I'm getting better. Last Sunday night when I was talking with W, we got on the subject of money and her just calling and saying that I have to pay the pre-school tuition. We got on the topic of money, and all she was saying was things like:

You make 4x as much money as I do. (I also still pay ALL the bills from our home, her van, PLUS I give her what she asked for in Child Support. Not to mention that if my filing status changes to single, my taxes will probably rise significantly. My withholding as a single is $500 more each month.)

You had money to buy a second car. (I bought a 9 year old car, paid cash, I'm still making payments on her car. I sold a newer car that I had payments on, took the cash I netted over the payoff and put it on this car.)

Your car insurance wouldn't be as expensive if you didn't have two cars. (I pay more to cover her van than my two cars combined.)

I didn't promise to pay my credit card bill. (She not only promised to do this, but had the bill sent to the apartment, and has not paid it yet since she has left.)

So yes, I'm focused on all of the logic, as I don't really understand she is hurt.

I do KNOW as a fact that she is hurt, but I certainly don't understand it. I've expressed that I know she is hurt, and I've heard her say that she is hurt, and it seems I still hurt her and don't even know it. She said the conversation Sunday was painful.

So I asked her why she didn't share that with me? No answer. I ended it as soon as I realized it was hurting her. But how am I supposed to know it hurts if she doesnt tell me.

My W is probably your MBTI type, INFP from my best guess. Of course, she refuses to take any sort of test and has refused to take any of the MB questionaires as well.

Again, I'm guilty of applying logic here. She hurts, she just told me she is hurt, so I want to do the work needed so I can learn not to hurt her, so I've apologized for hurting her and asked her to tell me in ways that I can understand how she hurts. She is so withdrawn that she cannot or will not provide this information.

She just says she is hurt and that is supposed to be enough for me.

I have to accept that perhaps that is all she wants to tell me or is willing to tell me. However, I still want to know more, as well as get that chance to rebuild the bank.

I don't even know specifically what to apologize for, I just have this general information that she hurts.

I know she resents the money issue. Money has always been an issue. I'm a saver, and she is a spender. I'm sure it looks to her like I had money for my hobbies, but would give very little to her. When I look at the facts, I've spent far more on her and the kids than I've spent on my hobbies.

But she feels differently, and I don't know how to deal with these fears. We now have debt, a lot of debt, debt that I didn't have the day before I married.

I know I handled this badly, because once I became unhappy, I started spending more on my car hobby. Well I've sold them all, all the toys and just have two "beaters" to drive. All of my wheels, extra tires, and performance goodies are gone on e-bay. Oh, I have one wheel still remaining, it only drew $1 on E-Bay so I no-saled it since it didn't meet my reserve.

Ditto for a bunch of extra computer gear.

I'm sure it will take a long time, and since I'm logic driven, this makes no sense to me at all. Since I don't know exactly what hurts her, what she wants (other than to not be married to me) I have little hope of:

a) not stepping on her toes and hurting her more
b) knowing what to do to get to the point where I can even rebuild the lovebank

I'm sure you can understand why I need a plan, and need to see things working.

I don't know if I'll ever understand how much she hurts, but it must be really bad since she has been gone 5 months now and won't even go to dinner with me, let alone consider reconciliation.

So now you understand why I cry out to God to give me understanding. Why I'm so frustrated that he hasn't made her pain more apparent to me. Why I'm so frustrated with her (again logic) that if she felt this bad, why didn't she just say she was hurting and unhappy.

She never used the words I'm unhappy until she announced on Sep 6 that she wanted to move out. BTW, for being so sensitive, she picked a really lousy day, I just returned from the funeral of a 103 year old great aunt who I greatly admired.

Well, I did nothing last night. I just rotted my mind watching TV. I watched a pretty funny game show on SpikeTV called Oblivious.

I'm getting my papers together this AM

Tony