Okay, here's the deal.

I am a human too, and I have lost my spouse and family too, and on occasion I have triggers and sore spots too.

I don't want this to spiral downhill. Let's just agree we've hit a nerve and call it a night. You know I care--I know you didn't mean it. Well fix it in the morning.


CJ

CJ,

I've read step two, Opening a Closed Spirit and I keep coming back to the conclustion that I'm doing those things and they are NOT working.

I'm gentle, I've asked for forgiveness, I've done the 180, I'm trying to listen.

She is still avoiding me, doesn't talk, etc.

What am I missing?

I pray for her several times a day. I pray that:

1. She might be healed from any hurts I've caused
2. That the Holy Spirit would show me what I've done wrong.
3. That I would learn how my words and deeds impact her and that I can anticipate how the things I consider saying might be interpreted.

For example, the whole ugly mess above, I had no idea you would take it so personally. I did not think those were your words, but you playing the role of my wife, so I answered what I felt since I heard the words she said.

Well, you took it very personally, something I had no idea you would have done.

That is an example of how I put my big size 11 foot in my mouth and hurt someone without the motive or objective to do so.

4. That the Holy Spirit would bind Satan so she can hear God's truth, and not the lies of the great deciever.

I'm sure there are many more things I pray for, that she might be able to forgive me of those hurts I've caused, on purpose or not, that I might be able to forgive her of the hurts I feel.

And, I pray that I would remember to give God the glory regardless of the outcome.

While I pray several times each day for reconciliation, for guidance, and have thanked both God and my W for showing me these areas where I need to improve, the progress is painfully slow.

I have to admit that I'm frustrated that I cannot see God working in her life, or that our relationship doesn't appear to be one step closer to reconciliation.

I'll read it again, however, I don't really know what else to do, other than wait. I've shared my other frustrations, that I don't think of the right things to say until hours after the conversation.

I still take personally things she says such as I should be happy with the time I do get to spend with our daughter, and I shouldn't EXPECT to have more time with her. The tacit assertion is SHE should be able to dictate how much time I have with our D.

I praise God that He has taken care of me and that our YD seems to be doing well in all of this. I'm disappointed that W still believes this is the best solution, and my heart is broken over how this is impacting our 14yo SD.

I want to see God have a total victory here. Why can't I be satisfied with His timetable?

Tony

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:
<strong> ...I've read step two, Opening a Closed Spirit and I keep coming back to the conclustion that I'm doing those things and they are NOT working. ... I'm gentle, I've asked for forgiveness, I've done the 180, I'm trying to listen. ...She is still avoiding me, doesn't talk, etc. ...What am I missing?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh boy. Tony, I am so disappointed to hear this. Buddy, this is a pity party attitude, and I don't think you'll get anywhere near reconciliation talking like this. I'm honestly sad to hear you talk like this.

Like you, I took the day and night off yesterday and took some time for myself and my kids and my goals in life. It felt good to "get back on track." One of the things I did was to also read Step Two "Open a Closed Spirit" and as I was reading, I remember distinctly thinking, "Oh, if only somehow he could get this!!" It sorrows my own heart to read this and know that the answer is RIGHT THERE IN PRINT and my own H never bothered or wanted to read it.

I see it. I read it. I get it. As a woman, I completely understand to my core what the author means when he writes these things and literally LONG and ACHE for that lightbulb moment; yet somehow you are Helen Keller and I am Annie Sullivan spelling "grass" "tree" "kitty" and you don't get it. I haven't found your "WATER" yet.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I pray for her several times a day. I pray that: 1. She might be healed from any hurts I've caused </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just a quick thought: did it occur to you that she could be healed and not want to reconcile and still choose to end the marriage? Or that she could be healed after the marriage is over?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>2. That the Holy Spirit would show me what I've done wrong.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Kind of ditto: did it occur to you that the Holy Spirit can move in your life in a mighty way and draw you into close intimacy with God, and not save your marriage? I'm not advocating divorce here--I'm just saying that sometimes it happens, and the Holy Spirit still works anyway despite us.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>3. That I would learn how my words and deeds impact her and that I can anticipate how the things I consider saying might be interpreted. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">(See above)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>For example, the whole ugly mess above, I had no idea you would take it so personally. I did not think those were your words, but you playing the role of my wife, so I answered what I felt since I heard the words she said. ... Well, you took it very personally, something I had no idea you would have done. ... That is an example of how I put my big size 11 foot in my mouth and hurt someone without the motive or objective to do so.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have a little bit of a hurtful puzzle here for you, my brother. Have you realized that in the whole mess above, that you have not apologized or taken responsibility for the part you played? (I'm trying to point out something here, not asking for an apology.)

The reason I point this out is a bit of a logic problem. I am an acquaintance of yours at best--I am relatively anonymous and in your daily "real life" I mean very little. You would have nothing to lose humbling yourself, taking responsibility for your stuff, and apologizing. Even if you totally blew it and had no way to save face, you'd have nothing to lose apologizing to me because I'm not so important in your life. Well, if you can't be humble, take responsibility, and apologize to me--and I mean very little--logic would say that you would have a VERY hard time doing that with someone who really mattered to you. If you can't lose face with a total stranger, chances are that you WON'T lose face with someone you care about.

You have explained--but explanations are not taking personal responsibility or understanding how I felt. You have dodged a little and defended a little--but once again, that's not humbling yourself and looking in the mirror. In fact, in some ways explaining and defending are placing the responsibility somewhere else.

I point this out to you because I want you to pause and think about it. Is it possible that you can not/have not truly apologized to your W in a way that expects nothing back?? When you hurt her, and you explain, that does not "open her spirit"--it explains why it was okay for you to hurt her. Well, guess what? After she's been hurt often enough, and you've explained why it was okay to hurt her often enough, she's going to roll up TIGHT and say, "NO MORE!! I don't care if you're explanations are logical, I AM BEING HURT HERE!!!"

Finally, my reaction was my own and was a result of my own triggers and all, but to quote you: "...(I thought you were) playing the role of my wife, so I answered what I felt since I heard the words she said." If that is how you would actually respond to your wife, then that is why she is hurt and closed, and that is why you benefit from learning empathetic listening AND RESPONDING.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>4. That the Holy Spirit would bind Satan so she can hear God's truth, and not the lies of the great deciever. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">AMEN.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I'm sure there are many more things I pray for, that she might be able to forgive me of those hurts I've caused, on purpose or not, that I might be able to forgive her of the hurts I feel.

And, I pray that I would remember to give God the glory regardless of the outcome.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Once again, she may be able to forgive you for unintentionally stabbing her emotionally, but that does not mean she won't still carry the stab scar. You know, Tony, even if you did not mean to stab her emotionally, even if it was not on purpose, the result to her is still a bleeding wound that will scar over. It's not much consolation to the person who's dying from a stab wound to hear, "I didn't mean to..." "Oh well! You did! I'm dying becasue of it!"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>... I have to admit that I'm frustrated that I cannot see God working in her life, or that our relationship doesn't appear to be one step closer to reconciliation. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My brother, just because you can not see God working in her life doesn't mean He's not!! Boy, while my exH and I live apart, I know God is working in his heart, but I only get to see it about once every blue moon!!! God's greatest desire is for us to be in relationship with Him--so He IS working in her life. But Tony, He's working with her where she is and where she needs it--not where you are, not where you need it, and not where you think SHE needs it. Also, bear in mind that she could gradually move closer to God and that does not necessarily preclude that the marriage reconciles. Yes, years and years from now she may have the guts to say, "Now that I've grown closer to God, I realize that I made a mistake treating my first H like I did."

(Let me also say again, that I am not encouraging divorce, but rather, just pointing out that just because a divorce is final God does not stop working in her life. I am divorced and God has worked in my life tremendously, even though I didn't want it--and God is still working in my exH's life too.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I'll read it again, however, I don't really know what else to do, other than wait. I've shared my other frustrations, that I don't think of the right things to say until hours after the conversation. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As I articulated above, I am very sad to hear this. I almost have to wonder if you are really wanting to and ready to change. There are times when it sounds to me like what you want to do is whine and blame her for not coming back. It's not pretty, I know, but it's the truth of what I think. Honestly, I don't feel like you want to try. At times it feels like it's just easier to "be frustrated" than to do the hard work of changing as a man--whether she comes back or not.

So, for tonight and tomorrow, I'd like to hear about your four assignments (Fun, Vocabulary, Check-in, Empathetic Listening), AND I want you to give true consideration to whether or not you are willing to change. Hey, maybe you just really do not want to! And if you decide that you are committed to changing, then we are going to have to work on the "I'm so frustrated-pity party" thoughts that you choose to keep. We will practice recognizing those counter-productive thoughts, stopping, and replacing them with a productive thought.

Your true and faithful friend,


CJ

<small>[ March 17, 2004, 11:48 PM: Message edited by: FaithfulWife ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:
<strong> ...I've read step two, Opening a Closed Spirit and I keep coming back to the conclustion that I'm doing those things and they are NOT working. ... I'm gentle, I've asked for forgiveness, I've done the 180, I'm trying to listen. ...She is still avoiding me, doesn't talk, etc. ...What am I missing?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh boy. Tony, I am so disappointed to hear this. Buddy, this is a pity party attitude, and I don't think you'll get anywhere near reconciliation talking like this. I'm honestly sad to hear you talk like this.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please explain why you feel this way, I truly don't understand.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally Posted by CJ:
<strong>

Like you, I took the day and night off yesterday and took some time for myself and my kids and my goals in life. It felt good to "get back on track." One of the things I did was to also read Step Two "Open a Closed Spirit" and as I was reading, I remember distinctly thinking, "Oh, if only somehow he could get this!!" It sorrows my own heart to read this and know that the answer is RIGHT THERE IN PRINT and my own H never bothered or wanted to read it.

I see it. I read it. I get it. As a woman, I completely understand to my core what the author means when he writes these things and literally LONG and ACHE for that lightbulb moment; yet somehow you are Helen Keller and I am Annie Sullivan spelling "grass" "tree" "kitty" and you don't get it. I haven't found your "WATER" yet.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, I'm not stupid, so what am I not getting? What I'm saying is I don't even get the chance to demonstrate being sensitive. I don't get the chance to demonstrate being humble.

That's a big part of my frustration.

I'm frustrated with myself because it's obvious to me that I am NOT a more attractive alternative to divorce.

Am I supposed to feel good about this? What thoughts am I supposed to have about this?

Neither the thoughts or the feelings are pleasant right now.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally Posted by CJ:
<strong>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I pray for her several times a day. I pray that: 1. She might be healed from any hurts I've caused </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just a quick thought: did it occur to you that she could be healed and not want to reconcile and still choose to end the marriage?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, so are you saying I should quit?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally Posted by CJ:
<strong>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>2. That the Holy Spirit would show me what I've done wrong.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Kind of ditto: did it occur to you that the Holy Spirit can move in your life in a mighty way and draw you into close intimacy with God, and not save your marriage?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, are you saying I should quit? I'm a thinker, I've considered many scenarios.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally Posted by CJ:
<strong>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>3. That I would learn how my words and deeds impact her and that I can anticipate how the things I consider saying might be interpreted. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">(See above)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>For example, the whole ugly mess above, I had no idea you would take it so personally. I did not think those were your words, but you playing the role of my wife, so I answered what I felt since I heard the words she said. ... Well, you took it very personally, something I had no idea you would have done. ... That is an example of how I put my big size 11 foot in my mouth and hurt someone without the motive or objective to do so.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have a little bit of a hurtful puzzle here for you, my brother. Have you realized that in the whole mess above, that you have not apologized or taken responsibility for the part you played? (I'm trying to point out something here, not asking for an apology.) The reason I point this out is a bit of a logic problem. I am an acquaintance of yours at best--I am relatively anonymous and in your daily "real life" I mean very little. You would have nothing to lose humbling yourself, taking responsibility for your stuff, and apologizing. Even if you totally blew it and had no way to save face, you'd have nothing to lose apologizing to me because I'm not so important in your life. Well, if you can't be humble, take responsibility, and apologize to me--and I mean very little--logic would say that you would have a VERY hard time doing that with someone who really mattered to you. If you can't lose face with a total stranger, chances are that you WON'T lose face with someone you care about.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know I read this, and at first I thought you were talking about apologizing to her. I didn't read very carefully.

This is a key lesson, and probably the core of my problem. I didn't THINK to apologize because I didn't try to hurt you. As I've said in my replys before, I didn't believe these were your words, and that you were merely playing a role.

Then you told me that you were hurt.

You know what, I was insensitive, and I should have apologized, not because of me being right or wrong, but because you were hurt.

I truly am sorry you were hurt, and if I could, I would go back and do things differently.

Thank you for showing me this very important aspect of my personality. I can analyze why I didn't apologize and explain the thought process behind it, but that does little to take away the pain you felt, and perhaps still feel.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally Posted by CJ:
<strong>

You have explained--but explanations are not taking personal responsibility or understanding how I felt. You have dodged a little and defended a little--but once again, that's not humbling yourself and looking in the mirror. In fact, in some ways explaining and defending are placing the responsibility somewhere else.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right, I said essentially that I wasn't trying to hurt you, so if you were hurt it was your own doing. Thanks for sharing that, it just shows me how insensitive I still am, and I do regret behaving in such a fashion.

Maybe I should quit, you would think a sharp guy like me would get this by now.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally Posted by CJ:
<strong>

I point this out to you because I want you to pause and think about it. Is it possible that you can not/have not truly apologized to your W in a way that expects nothing back?? When you hurt her, and you explain, that does not "open her spirit"--it explains why it was okay for you to hurt her. Well, guess what? After she's been hurt often enough, and you've explained why it was okay to hurt her often enough, she's going to roll up TIGHT and say, "NO MORE!! I don't care if you're explanations are logical, I AM BEING HURT HERE!!!"
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know, I have apologized to her. I've said I am truly sorry she is hurt, that I would do anything to never hurt her again. I've taken responsibilty for being insenstive and that I understand as best as I can why she feels the way she does.

I have not tried to make excuses, I've simply said that I'm sorry, and that I don't want to hurt her.

If it takes a divorce so that she doesn't hurt anymore, the so be it. That's not what I want, but it's not fair for her to hurt at my expense.

I mentioned to her back in November that she could get a divorce if she wanted, even told her that she could pay for it out of her proceeds. I shared with her that I didn't want her to feel trapped.

I really meant that.

I would like her to "unball" and open up to me. I just don't know how.

1. She avoids my calls.
2. She avoids any face to face contact.

So how do I even show her a gentle spirit? This question has not been answered in a fashion that I understand.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally Posted by CJ:
<strong>
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>4. That the Holy Spirit would bind Satan so she can hear God's truth, and not the lies of the great deciever. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">AMEN.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I'm sure there are many more things I pray for, that she might be able to forgive me of those hurts I've caused, on purpose or not, that I might be able to forgive her of the hurts I feel.

And, I pray that I would remember to give God the glory regardless of the outcome.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Once again, she may be able to forgive you for unintentionally stabbing her emotionally, but that does not mean she won't still carry the stab scar. You know, Tony, even if you did not mean to stab her emotionally, even if it was not on purpose, the result to her is still a bleeding wound that will scar over. It's not much consolation to the person who's dying from a stab wound to hear, "I didn't mean to..." "Oh well! You did! I'm dying becasue of it!"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>... I have to admit that I'm frustrated that I cannot see God working in her life, or that our relationship doesn't appear to be one step closer to reconciliation. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My brother, just because you can not see God working in her life doesn't mean He's not!! Boy, while my exH and I live apart, I know God is working in his heart, but I only get to see it about once every blue moon!!! God's greatest desire is for us to be in relationship with Him--so He IS working in her life. But Tony, He's working with her where she is and where she needs it--not where you are, not where you need it, and not where you think SHE needs it. Also, bear in mind that she could gradually move closer to God and that does not necessarily preclude that the marriage reconciles. Yes, years and years from now she may have the guts to say, "Now that I've grown closer to God, I realize that I made a mistake treating my first H like I did."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I'll read it again, however, I don't really know what else to do, other than wait. I've shared my other frustrations, that I don't think of the right things to say until hours after the conversation. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As I articulated above, I am very sad to hear this. I almost have to wonder if you are really wanting to and ready to change. There are times when it sounds to me like what you want to do is whine and blame her for not coming back. It's not pretty, I know, but it's the truth of what I think. Honestly, I don't feel like you want to. At times it feels like it's just easier to "be frustrated" than to do the hard work of changing as a man--whether she comes back or not. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not whining at all, am I.

I'm sitting here saying I'M WILLING TO WORK. So give me an assignment.

Have I not been working on the assignments you've given me?

Let me go read the chapter again, but I don't see a set of suggestions for a wife who doesn't answer phone calls and doesn't come by to see you face to face.

I'm saying I'm out of ideas, talent and luck all at the same time. So I need some fresh ideas.

But most of all, I need to know from her what it is she needs from me the most.

How do I become that man she wanted me to be 7+ years ago. I need to hear from her why she was disappointed. I've not heard that. All I hear is that she doesn't feel or believe it will ever work.

Part of me wants to say, of course it won't if you have the negative attitude.

So tell me, what should I do, right now, or tomorrow.

Do you want to talk to her? Maybe you can hear something I'm not hearing.

I really want to understand. I really want to be sensitive.

I just keep failing. I fail with her, I fail with you. I ask for help and you call me a whiner. Is that a motivation technique, or do I really sound that way?

Well, it's late at night, and I'm not at my mental best, so maybe the answer is right in my face and I just don't see it.

Or maybe this was just another in a long series of lessons I still need to learn, such as about forgiveness.

I'm sorry I'm so dense when it comes to this sort of thing.

I believe God will save this marriage, and that God will lead W and I to be a happily married couple.

I just don't know how he is going to do that, and if I'm the one who is in the way right now.

Tony

<small>[ March 18, 2004, 12:08 AM: Message edited by: javaSansContour ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong>

So, for tonight and tomorrow, I'd like to hear about your four assignments (Fun, Vocabulary, Check-in, Empathetic Listening), AND I want you to give true consideration to whether or not you are willing to change. Hey, maybe you just really do not want to! And if you decide that you are committed to changing, then we are going to have to work on the "I'm so frustrated-pity party" thoughts that you choose to keep. We will practice recognizing those counter-productive thoughts, stopping, and replacing them with a productive thought.

Your true and faithful friend,


CJ </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, for fun:

Watched a James Bond flick tonight on the tube

Vocabulary, did I miss a word, let me look back a bit...

I don't think I did, the last word assigned was abandoned, and I described it, right?


Check-in

This is always the hardest for me because I really don't notice feelings unless they are intense.

So let me deviate a bit. While I didn't have any feelings that registered with me most of the day, right now I'm a bit tense. Why? Well, I feel I've exhausted my talent, and my instructor is telling me that what I'm doing isn't good enough, and she is even accusing me of perhaps wanting to whine more than I want to work.

This causes tension in me because I want to work, but it seems if I try anything, nothing happens. If I call my W she doesn't answer the phone. If I leave a message, she doesn't call back. If I don't call her nothing happens, if I do call her nothing happens, and now I'm told that I'm a whiner and not a worker. Yes, that creates some tension and makes me a bit angry too. I know I'm supposed to develop a more extensive emotional vocabulary.

I really am tense, my shoulders are now tight, my legs are tight. I'm banging away at the keyboard at times.

Ok empathetic listening.

Let me take what you said about me:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally Posted by CJ:
<strong>As I articulated above, I am very sad to hear this. I almost have to wonder if you are really wanting to and ready to change. There are times when it sounds to me like what you want to do is whine and blame her for not coming back. It's not pretty, I know, but it's the truth of what I think. Honestly, I don't feel like you want to. At times it feels like it's just easier to "be frustrated" than to do the hard work of changing as a man--whether she comes back or not.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When I hear you question my desire to change, I think you either reading something completely different from what I just wrote, or see something that I don't even know I'm saying. I feel misunderstood. Why? Because when I say something as simple as I want to change, but I haven't yet found the way, or I'm frustrated that change isn't happening the way or rate I'd like, it means exactly that and nothing more. I want to change, and it's not happening for me. So, since either I don't understand how you feel or get to that point, or I don't understand other way the words I use can be interpreted, I ask you to show me why you think and feel this way. I don't understand how you arrived at that conclusion. I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just saying I'm having a hard time understanding.

I want to understand.

Tony

OH! P.S. I forgot!

1) Fun: Do one thing that makes your soul sing.

2) Vocabulary: Consider the subtle differences of these words, which all mean "mad"
Mad:
Bothered
Ruffled
Irritated
Displeased
Annoyed
Steamed
Irked
Perturbed
Frustrated
Angry
Fed up
Disgusted
Indignant
Ticked off
Bristling
Fuming
Explosive
Enraged
Irate
Incensed
Burned up
Outraged
Furious
Blind rage

3) Check-in. Check in with yourself every time you begin to feel "frustrated" and choose another emotion that you will feel, such as sad, afraid, or serene.

4) Empathetic Listening and Responding (FYI--this is my voice; I really do think/feel this):

"Boy, I am really afraid to try this again since it turned out so disasterously before. I have had a rough day today and I just don't have the strength to face another hurt. I just wish that somehow I could show Tony how to listen with his feelings and put his own needs aside--at least while he's talking to his W anyway. Sigh. I feel stuck."

BOY, do you write FAST!! Holy smoke!! I'm impressed! BTW, hi!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:
<strong> Please explain why you feel this way, I truly don't understand.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm disappointed because I think highly of you, and I know you can do this. You're smart, articulate, positive--and I think resorting to a pity party is not going to help you reach your goal.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Ok, I'm not stupid, so what am I not getting? What I'm saying is I don't even get the chance to demonstrate being sensitive. I don't get the chance to demonstrate being humble.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, you get the chance to demonstrate being sensitive to me, to all the ladies on this forum, to your co-workers, to people you run into every day, to people in your church, to you daughter... Same with demonstrating being humble.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I'm frustrated with myself because it's obvious to me that I am NOT a more attractive alternative to divorce.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ahhhh--well this I understand. I too was quite hurt to realize that I had offered my life to a man who found email cybersex with strangers more valuable than me. I'm venturing a guess that what you're feeling is not "frustration"--it's pain over not being important to someone who is VERY important to you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Am I supposed to feel good about this? What thoughts am I supposed to have about this? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, Tony, you are free to have any thoughts or feelings you choose; however, some thoughts/feelings will get you closer to your goals and some will take you further away. Thoughts do not control you--you control them. Feelings do not control you--you are their master. So DECIDE how you'd like to feel about this, and then feel that way. Decide what thoughts you think you should have, and then have them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> Neither the thoughts or the feelings are pleasant right now.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand what you're saying, and I know it feels horrible, doesn't it??

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Yes, so are you saying I should quit? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, I'm not saying you should quit. I'm just saying expand your mind and possibilities. Forgiveness does not necessarily mean reconciliation, and forgiveness is for her best interest, not for you. And forgiveness does not mean no consequences--it means being forgiven.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> Yes, are you saying I should quit? I'm a thinker, I've considered many scenarios.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, I'm not saying you should quit. I'm saying that God does not die and the world doesn't stop spinning if the divorce is finalized. The Holy Spirit does not sudden abandon her or you. In fact, maybe the Holy Spirit will have an easier time dealing with you (or with her) when the fighting and hurting are minimized.

I'm just saying that what you're praying for is not specific, and God may give you what you're praying for.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>You know I read this, and at first I thought you were talking about apologizing to her. I didn't read very carefully.

This is a key lesson, and probably the core of my problem. I didn't THINK to apologize because I didn't try to hurt you. As I've said in my replys before, I didn't believe these were your words, and that you were merely playing a role.

Then you told me that you were hurt.

You know what, I was insensitive, and I should have apologized, not because of me being right or wrong, but because you were hurt.

I truly am sorry you were hurt, and if I could, I would go back and do things differently.

Thank you for showing me this very important aspect of my personality. I can analyze why I didn't apologize and explain the thought process behind it, but that does little to take away the pain you felt, and perhaps still feel.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Say, I have a question for you. Do you think that Thinkers think it out and kind of believe that once they've analyzed it and understand it, that it's "understood"? Because to a Feeler, it's understood when someone says, "I understand how you could feel that way." Maybe this is partially a personality difference thing.

Just an idea.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>You are right, I said essentially that I wasn't trying to hurt you, so if you were hurt it was your own doing. Thanks for sharing that, it just shows me how insensitive I still am, and I do regret behaving in such a fashion.

Maybe I should quit, you would think a sharp guy like me would get this by now.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're looking for a reason to quit, aren't you?? Come on, Tony, you are smart as a whip but you are just starting to learn this! You are being very hard on yourself, so give yourself a break and keep learning, okay?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I'm not whining at all, am I.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'd like a lite, swiss with that whine please. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I just keep failing. I fail with her, I fail with you. I ask for help and you call me a whiner. Is that a motivation technique, or do I really sound that way?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tony! Tony! Tony! You didn't "fail" with me. This is what happens when there are two individual people in even a friendship. Tiffs occur. Hurts happen. The point of these occurences is to learn from them and do better next time. And I called you a whiner to get your attention and to snap you out of it. Whining is not productive, so it wastes your recovery energy to use it on whining.

I too believe that God will work a miracle and reconcile your marriage. The thing about miracles is that it's a thing of faith--we DON'T know how it's going to happen and that's the faith part. When Moses hit the rock, he had NO CLUE how God was going to bring water to the Israelits--but he knew that God wanted him to hit the rock, and he knew that SOMEHOW God knew how to bring the water, so Moses hit the rock.

So, Tony, stop wondering how God's going to work this miracle and start hitting rocks. Just do it.


CJ

CJ,

Thanks for your time and your answers. I do want to ask one thing. It seems you didn't answer some of my questions. I don't know if that was an oversight, or if you simply chose not to answer them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong> BOY, do you write FAST!! Holy smoke!! I'm impressed! BTW, hi!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:
<strong> Please explain why you feel this way, I truly don't understand.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm disappointed because I think highly of you, and I know you can do this. You're smart, articulate, positive--and I think resorting to a pity party is not going to help you reach your goal.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Ok, I'm not stupid, so what am I not getting? What I'm saying is I don't even get the chance to demonstrate being sensitive. I don't get the chance to demonstrate being humble.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, you get the chance to demonstrate being sensitive to me, to all the ladies on this forum, to your co-workers, to people you run into every day, to people in your church, to you daughter... Same with demonstrating being humble.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, I wasn't clear here. I know I get chances with everyone else.

The book talks about a football game analogy. So let's go with that.

How do I "gain yards" in the superbowl here. With her? I should have been more clear when I described my frustration.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally Posted by CJ:
<strong>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I'm frustrated with myself because it's obvious to me that I am NOT a more attractive alternative to divorce.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ahhhh--well this I understand. I too was quite hurt to realize that I had offered my life to a man who found email cybersex with strangers more valuable than me. I'm venturing a guess that what you're feeling is not "frustration"--it's pain over not being important to someone who is VERY important to you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Am I supposed to feel good about this? What thoughts am I supposed to have about this? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, Tony, you are free to have any thoughts or feelings you choose; however, some thoughts/feelings will get you closer to your goals and some will take you further away. Thoughts do not control you--you control them. Feelings do not control you--you are their master. So DECIDE how you'd like to feel about this, and then feel that way. Decide what thoughts you think you should have, and then have them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> Neither the thoughts or the feelings are pleasant right now.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand what you're saying, and I know it feels horrible, doesn't it??

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Yes, so are you saying I should quit? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, I'm not saying you should quit. I'm just saying expand your mind and possibilities. Forgiveness does not necessarily mean reconciliation, and forgiveness is for her best interest, not for you. And forgiveness does not mean no consequences--it means being forgiven.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> Yes, are you saying I should quit? I'm a thinker, I've considered many scenarios.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, I'm not saying you should quit. I'm saying that God does not die and the world doesn't stop spinning if the divorce is finalized. The Holy Spirit does not sudden abandon her or you. In fact, maybe the Holy Spirit will have an easier time dealing with you (or with her) when the fighting and hurting are minimized.

I'm just saying that what you're praying for is not specific, and God may give you what you're praying for.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, then why doesn't the Holy Spirit show me what I'm supposed to be praying for?

I can't be more specific than show me what I need to do right now since I don't know what to do, can I?

What is not specific about asking God to show me the path to reconciliation, to show me what I need to do?

What is not specific about asking God to teach me to love my wife the way that Christ loved the church?

Is the prayer I express in my signature too vague as well.

Sheesh, I feel like I can't even pray right now.

Maybe I just need an example of something more specific.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally Posted by CJ:
<strong>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>You know I read this, and at first I thought you were talking about apologizing to her. I didn't read very carefully.

This is a key lesson, and probably the core of my problem. I didn't THINK to apologize because I didn't try to hurt you. As I've said in my replys before, I didn't believe these were your words, and that you were merely playing a role.

Then you told me that you were hurt.

You know what, I was insensitive, and I should have apologized, not because of me being right or wrong, but because you were hurt.

I truly am sorry you were hurt, and if I could, I would go back and do things differently.

Thank you for showing me this very important aspect of my personality. I can analyze why I didn't apologize and explain the thought process behind it, but that does little to take away the pain you felt, and perhaps still feel.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Say, I have a question for you. Do you think that Thinkers think it out and kind of believe that once they've analyzed it and understand it, that it's "understood"? Because to a Feeler, it's understood when someone says, "I understand how you could feel that way." Maybe this is partially a personality difference thing.

Just an idea.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you saying the thinker here is not verbalizing the understood part? That they understand in their mind, you know, the light bulb goes off, and they assume the other person has or will reach that same conclusion.

I'm not sure I understand the scenario you paint with the thinker.

I do understand that the feeler wants the other person to acknowledge their feelings, and saying I understand how you could feel that way is one way to do this.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally Posted by CJ:
<strong>
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>You are right, I said essentially that I wasn't trying to hurt you, so if you were hurt it was your own doing. Thanks for sharing that, it just shows me how insensitive I still am, and I do regret behaving in such a fashion.

Maybe I should quit, you would think a sharp guy like me would get this by now.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're looking for a reason to quit, aren't you?? Come on, Tony, you are smart as a whip but you are just starting to learn this! You are being very hard on yourself, so give yourself a break and keep learning, okay?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, I'm looking for a way to succeed, and you are giving me these ideas that it may not work out, that I don't get it, that I'm blind.

I'm looking for a way to succeed, but I'm discouraged.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally Posted by CJ:
<strong>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I'm not whining at all, am I.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'd like a lite, swiss with that whine please. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, fine, well give me a play coach.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally Posted by CJ:
<strong>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I just keep failing. I fail with her, I fail with you. I ask for help and you call me a whiner. Is that a motivation technique, or do I really sound that way?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tony! Tony! Tony! You didn't "fail" with me. This is what happens when there are two individual people in even a friendship. Tiffs occur. Hurts happen. The point of these occurences is to learn from them and do better next time. And I called you a whiner to get your attention and to snap you out of it. Whining is not productive, so it wastes your recovery energy to use it on whining.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well youu have my attention. You've never lost it. Going back to the football game analogy, how do I get on the field?

MOre later, the phone has gone off...
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally Posted by CJ:
<strong>

I too believe that God will work a miracle and reconcile your marriage. The thing about miracles is that it's a thing of faith--we DON'T know how it's going to happen and that's the faith part. When Moses hit the rock, he had NO CLUE how God was going to bring water to the Israelits--but he knew that God wanted him to hit the rock, and he knew that SOMEHOW God knew how to bring the water, so Moses hit the rock.

So, Tony, stop wondering how God's going to work this miracle and start hitting rocks. Just do it.


CJ </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Tony,

I have read your posts and I hear all through them that you are discouraged and downhearted. Is that how you&#8217;re feeling? Disappointed that it&#8217;s not moving toward reconciliation (that you can see) and that it&#8217;s not moving fast enough? Heartsick and broken hearted that given the choice between you and divorce, she&#8217;s picking divorce?? Boy do I totally know how you feel! This is probably the hardest thing you will ever go through in your life, and I know you&#8217;ve been through some momentous stuff in your life. It&#8217;s so easy to become discouraged and downhearted, so may I suggest that you take some extra &#8220;Take Care of Tony&#8221; time? When you take care of yourself by doing things like eating and sleeping properly, being with supportive people, and maybe doing small things that are calming to you (like for me, it&#8217;s taking the time to take a bubble bath with Frank Sinatra in the CD-player), it can restore your soul. As I was going through my divorce, I made tremendous strides in maturity and growth as a person, but what often happened to me was that I&#8217;d be working on reconciling/the marriage and working on me, and I would work myself too much. Sometimes it&#8217;s just as much of a step forward to NOT step back!

Next, I do read all of your posts, and I see every single question, but you must know that there are some questions you ask that don&#8217;t have answers-at least not in the way that you are searching for. I thought most of those questions were more rhetorical-as if you were asking, &#8220;Why is this happening to me?&#8221; Also, you know that LOTS of your questions are more like polite demands for me to give you something to do to &#8220;fix it.&#8221; Tony, you are a smart man-I have every confidence in you-and I know that you know there are no magic words I can give you to fix this &#8220;right now!!!&#8221; Yep, you&#8217;re an ESTJ living in the present without the love of your life, and I do know how much that hurts, but it took a couple years for it to get into this much trouble and it may take a couple years to get it out of trouble. I just can not fix this TODAY, no matter how much I may wish I could.

I&#8217;m going to take a bit of a different tactic today, in order to try to be more encouraging to you&#8230;in order to work on replacing the negative self-talk with more promising, hopeful self-talk&#8230;and in order to see if maybe this new tactic will work better with you. I&#8217;m going to encourage you to continue with the assignments and kindly remind you that empathetic listening does not mean expressing YOUR thoughts or feelings-it means listening for the feelings of the person talking. Okay? Just a reminder.

1) FUN-today I&#8217;m going to strongly encourage you to do something that makes your soul so happy that big, ol&#8217; Thinker you feels like dancing and singing. Choose something that just makes you HAPPY-like doing word puzzles, watching a favorite episode of Star Trek, working out, putzing with your car, or maybe a bubble bath! Haha <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> My point here is to not let yourself sit around at home, alone, feeling all depressed and discouraged. You&#8217;re an extrovert-go to men&#8217;s bible study or ask a few of your fella friends to go out for coffee (or a beer if that&#8217;s more appropriate).
2) VOCABULARY-I gave you a great vocab assignment last night, so I&#8217;m going to do it.
3) CHECK-IN-okay this one is hard for you because you don&#8217;t &#8220;feel&#8221; an overpowering emotion in your day-to-day existence. First, try to check in at regular intervals anyway just to dig a little deeper into yourself and see what you&#8217;re feeling. But second, during the day today, whenever you think a negative, depressing, discouraging thought take a moment and stop yourself-stop the broken record in your head and replace it with a hopeful thought. Here&#8217;s an example. When you hear inside your head the same old thoughts of &#8220;I&#8217;m so frustrated. I can&#8217;t demonstrate how sensitive I am. She won&#8217;t let me. She&#8217;d rather be divorced than answer my phone messages. She won&#8217;t even look at me&#8221; recognize that it&#8217;s the old thought pattern, stop yourself, and replace it with &#8220;I do feel sad that I can&#8217;t show her how sensitive I am becoming, but I know I am growing and working to become the man God wants me to be, and I am making progress. I am going to live the way God wants, and He has promised to give me peace and joy.&#8221;
4) EMPATHETIC LISTENING AND RESPONDING-I think we have gotten off course on these assignments. The purpose of these assignments was to give you practice being an active listener who could hear the feelings in a statement. You can&#8217;t very well respond empathetically if you can&#8217;t hear the feelings, can ya??? When we were working on empathetic listening, you did an EXCELLENT job and I was very impressed with your ability to hear the obvious feelings stated and figure out some of the more subtle feelings expressed as well. When we switched to empathetic responding, though, it fell apart. Soooo&#8230;maybe let me better explain empathetic responding.

The idea of empathetic responding is to actively listen for the feelings of the speaker/writer and then respond to them in a way that acknowledges/validates their feelings. This is a vital skill that most women wish their husbands knew how to do, and yet it&#8217;s something that many men do not know how to do-or choose not to do. I have no scientific evidence to support this statement, but I would guess that 9 times out of 10 when a lady says, &#8220;AARRGGHH! I&#8217;m so sick of this! No one ever helps me around the house and I never get to sit down and relax!&#8221; she doesn&#8217;t want you to tell her &#8220;Yes we do! We help you all the time. Don&#8217;t you remember just yesterday how I cleaned the bathroom with Comet?&#8221; What this says to her is a) I am not hearing how you feel, and b) you are not allowed to feel what you feel because it is not factually correct. She wants you to tell her &#8220;Are you feeling overwhelmed, honey? Would you like me to help you so we can sit down and relax together when we&#8217;re done? What do you need help with?&#8221; What this says to her is a) I hear that you feel XYZ and I&#8217;m checking with you to make sure that&#8217;s accurate, and b) I acknowledge that feeling and give you a safe place in which to express that feeling, and c) can I help?

Now, Tony, I know you are a very intelligent, articulate man and I KNOW for a fact that your brain comprehends the concept of empathetic responding. There is a bit of a regular formula to it after all: listen for feelings and feeling-words, mirror them back to make sure you aren&#8217;t assuming or interpreting incorrectly, and make a request or offer. The part that I&#8217;m not as sure that you understand is the emotional impact that empathetic listening can offer versus the old way of responding.

I&#8217;m going to use our mess above to demonstrate the impact-is that alright with you?? Remember -this is not a criticism, but an exploration of what goes on in the mind of a Feeler. We are not dealing with &#8220;facts&#8221; and perfect accuracy here, and I realize that as a Thinker and a Judger this is a unnatural realm for you to dwell in, so try hard, ok??

Here we go!

In the incident above, I was trying to imagine what I guess you wife is thinking, feeling and saying (apparently I was pretty accurate-heehee). My goal at the time was for you to listen for the feeling words, itemize the feelings you heard in the statement, and respond TO THOSE FEELINGS with empathy and understanding. Speaking in broad strokes, I felt like your response was directed toward me as if * I * was thinking, feeling and saying those things. Even when I told you those were not MY thoughts but just a practice, the response was (paraphrasing) &#8220;I think you&#8217;re being illogical, CJ. You have no reasonable reason to feel that way and so if you do, it&#8217;s your own fault. In fact, you ought to thank God that your ex wants to take our kids and you really shouldn&#8217;t stand in his way.&#8221; (BTW, Tony, I do know those were not your exact words, so please do not now explain to me how you did not say that and if I were to be more factual, here is what you really said.) If I were playing the part of your W, I&#8217;m sure you would get a response from her similar to the response you got from me: hurt and some anger.

Here&#8217;s why. To a Feeler, your response effectively communicates that we are not supposed to feel the feelings that we feel; that we are illogical and unreasonable; that it&#8217;s our fault and you take no ownership; that we should feel the way that YOU determine is right; and that we should be okay with being controlled and forced. Tony, you are a Thinker-but if I said that to you, would you be okay with it?? Would you accept my statement that you are not supposed to feel depressed, discouraged or downhearted right now?? Or that if you do, you are illogical and unreasonable?? Shoot-not only would I expect that you&#8217;d feel discouraged, I would say that it is completely NORMAL to feel that way. What if I communicated to you &#8220;If you feel downhearted it&#8217;s your own darn fault and I did nothing to contribute. I&#8217;m sure not responsible so it must be your problem&#8221;? Boy, that would be saddening!! Furthermore, how about if I told you that not only should you not feel depressed, but you should feel LUCKY to have a chance to get out of this mess-so FEEL LUCKY darn it!!!! Oh, and btw, you have to feel okay with my demanding that you feel the way I tell you. Seriously, does that work for you? I highly doubt it!!! I know it does not and did not work for me.

Here&#8217;s a better response: &#8220;So what you&#8217;re saying is that you&#8217;re afraid I&#8217;ll take our D away from you? Are you also saying you&#8217;re afraid you&#8217;ll lose some of her love maybe?? I have to honestly say I don&#8217;t see why you might feel fear, but I can say that the relationship between a D and her mom is very valuable. I can assure you that I would not do anything to take her away from you or harm that relationship. My desire to have more parenting time with D is from my desire to be with her too, but I can see how she can&#8217;t be two places at one time and how it might feel as if time with me is time away from you. Would it be possible for us to sit down and work this out in a way that works for both of us? I&#8217;d like to take your feelings into consideration and also acknowledge my feelings too.&#8221;

Here&#8217;s why this response is better. To a Feeler, this communicates that you are hearing how she feels&#8230;afraid of taking D away and afraid of losing her love. It also communicates that although you do not comprehend on a thinking level why she feels that way, that she is perfectly allowed to have the feelings she has. It communicates reassurance. It communicates that you can see how time with you is time away from her. It communicates a mutually respectful request to acknowledge how you feel too and work out something that works for BOTH of you, not just her.

Tony, I KNOW you can comprehend this, but what I&#8217;m wondering is-does this hit a spot in your soul? Can you see how the first response hurts? Can you look back over the years and see all the times that you told your wife she couldn&#8217;t feel what she feels? That it was HER fault and HER problem? That she was crazy for feeling that way? That she had to feel the way YOU think she should be feeling? Boy, no wonder she closed her spirit.

And can you see the benefit to empathetic responding?? Can you see how response #1 drives a woman further away, but response #2 gives them freedom to be who they are and mutual respect (for BOTH of you)?

In a summary, this is why I&#8217;m putting such an emphasis on practicing and developing empathy, empathetic listening, and empathetic responding. It will go a long, Long, LONG way in communicating change, mutual respect, and love.

Your true and faithful friend,


CJ

CJ,

You make many good points, and yes I plan to do my homework tonight or tomorrow morning.

The thing I struggle with most, besides there not being a fixed gameplan guaranteed to work is that the feelings make no sense to me at times.

Especially when the feels come out of what is a mis-understanding.

For instance, you felt very bad about what I said and felt that I was commenting on you.

I was more inclinded to correct the facts, I guess hoping that if you saw the same facts, that you would not have the negative emotional reaction.

My logic told me, she felt attacked, she took it personally, so if I correct the mistaken fact and share with her that the basis she is using for the feelings is incorrect, then she should have a whole new set of feelings once she understands the facts.

However, what you are telling me is that once the feelings start, the facts don't really matter, the feelings need to be addressed.

Ok, since I'm the only one working on this here, then I accept that I have to do it this way.

But it will take a long time for me to get out of this mindset. My first instinct is to correct the facts and not focus on the feelings.

Tony

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:
<strong> You make many good points, and yes I plan to do my homework tonight or tomorrow morning.

The thing I struggle with most, besides there not being a fixed gameplan guaranteed to work is that the feelings make no sense to me at times.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, that is rough, isn't it? It would be so much nicer if there was a gameplan that says, "If you do A, B, and C--then your marriage will be saved." That would be GREAT!! However, our spouses have free will to make bad choices, and sometimes no matter what we are willing to do, they won't reconcile.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> My logic told me, she felt attacked, she took it personally, so if I correct the mistaken fact and share with her that the basis she is using for the feelings is incorrect, then she should have a whole new set of feelings once she understands the facts.

However, what you are telling me is that once the feelings start, the facts don't really matter, the feelings need to be addressed. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep, that's what I'm telling you. Think of it this way...there is no reset button on feelings. Unlike a PC application, you can not press the reset button by explaining the correct facts. Feelings are a lot more like a child--when a child walks into a room, the child wants to be acknowledged.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Ok, since I'm the only one working on this here, then I accept that I have to do it this way.

But it will take a long time for me to get out of this mindset. My first instinct is to correct the facts and not focus on the feelings.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can see how that would be hard for you, but I think it will be beneficial for you to practice this. Whether it be with your W or with another lady in your life (mom, sis, etc.) this is usually a technique that can be really helpful.

Bear in mind that under IDEAL circumstances, you would learn this adjustment and your partner would learn to at least recognize your pattern--that it's not personal and that explaining means "I told you this so you wouldn't feel bad anymore." However, we are not under ideal circumstances here. You are the only one here doing work--so you will be the one changing.

I'm hoping that now you can see why I was having you practice listening for feelings and responding to the feelings with empathy.


CJ

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong> OH! P.S. I forgot!

1) Fun: Do one thing that makes your soul sing.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fun is the tough one while I'm on call, so it basically is just marking time. No wild nights out. (Not that I do that anyway)

I did tinker with the car a bit, but didn't see how to get the trunk lock cylinder out of the T-Bird, and none of my repair manuals addressed that either, so I'll post on a T-Bird board.

So I watched TV and played with the cat.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CJ:
<strong>

2) Vocabulary: Consider the subtle differences of these words, which all mean "mad"
Mad:
Bothered
Ruffled
Irritated
Displeased
Annoyed
Steamed
Irked
Perturbed
Frustrated
Angry
Fed up
Disgusted
Indignant
Ticked off
Bristling
Fuming
Explosive
Enraged
Irate
Incensed
Burned up
Outraged
Furious
Blind rage

3) Check-in. Check in with yourself every time you begin to feel "frustrated" and choose another emotion that you will feel, such as sad, afraid, or serene.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, what is sad is that it seems the only emotion I notice that I have is one of those shades of anger.

I had Fed Up yesterday. I have a customer who needs a lot of hand holding, usually after he shoots himself in the foot. So he calls me and asks for what essentially is a "Magic Cable" that converts one type of SCSI interface to another type. So I ask why he needs this mythical magic cable, but I don't use the words mythical or magical, and he tells me that the machine in the tape library is "broken"

So we start down the path to define broken...

So I suggest it's a software issue, still wants to replace the machine.

Well, later I find he doesn't need a cable, I get to the office and review the case notes and low and behold, it's a software issue and the reason they were in this position was that they installed an illicit copy of the software back in July last year and the "license" (I use the word loosely) was expired.

Well I was Fed Up as the past few days, these folks have consumed a lot of my time in non-productive ways.

But what alarms me more is the fact that I don't really have many examples where I feel joy.

I spend a lot of time in prayer and reading scripture, and I don't feel the "Joy of the Lord"

I suppose I'm more at peace, and I don't stay irritated nearly as long, so I suppose that is a start.

But, if my only emotion is anger, frustration, being Fed Up, no wonder W doesn't want to be around.

Well, only four more nights of on-call. I've got a service call scheduled for 7AM at a major RBOC (oh region bell operating company)

I also had a preliminary performance review and this whole marital trouble issue is affecting my work.

My boss is sympathetic and he notices that I'm getting better, but he gave me "the talk" yesterday, so I better mind my P's and Q's for a while.

I was humbled and just wanted to get it over because I know I've been letting little things go, and haven't been doing as much pro-active support work as he would like.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CJ:
<strong>

4) Empathetic Listening and Responding (FYI--this is my voice; I really do think/feel this):

"Boy, I am really afraid to try this again since it turned out so disasterously before. I have had a rough day today and I just don't have the strength to face another hurt. I just wish that somehow I could show Tony how to listen with his feelings and put his own needs aside--at least while he's talking to his W anyway. Sigh. I feel stuck." </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you just did. No I'm not making this up. You just did show me "how to listen with his feelings and put his own needs aside..."

When I read that, and I sometimes have to read it more than once because I'm guilty of reading too quickly, I realized something, based on the contents of this entire message. That since my predominant emotions expressed recently are negative, that's what comes out when I deal with my W.

So when she says something or tells me how she feels I tell or show her my emotions as well, and often that emotion is a negative one.

So while I'm thinking it's good to express how I feel because that is what I see you or W doing, you take it as I'm not validating your feelings at all.

So when I read that you are apprehensive (how's that for vocabulary, LOL?) about this, first I think well that don't make sense, I'm the one with the problem here. However, I think a bit more about it and realize (perhaps even go so far as to feel) like you really do care and are trying to balance that with some fear that the tail of the buffalo may get you again.

So I ask you to do two things. First keep trying, everyday, there are changes, however subtle, things that I grasp that I didn't grasp before. However, for both of us, it takes a while to learn new habits. Which brings me to the second part. I'm asking you to do the same thing you are asking me to do, to try do the same things with me regarding "the facts"

I don't know how you will take this, so I ask you to just read first and then tell me how this makes you feel.

I suggest this because I do believe a lot of negative emotions, hurts and anger are felt because of misunderstandings, and not because either of us is trying to hurt one another.

For example, I didn't mean to hurt YOU in the example above about the custody and visitation issues, but you were hurt. In the same fashion, I am bothered when a question I've asked isn't so much as acknowledged, rhetorical or otherwise.

So what I'm trying to do here is build a bridge, to say that I hear what you are saying and am trying to give examples that demonstrate where I have similar feelings. Not in an attempt to find fault with you. I am aware that as an INFP, you may not take criticism well, but rather as my way of saying, I do understand how you can feel that way because there is a set of circumstances that lead me to feel in a very similar fashion.

Well, I've got to go, this message has not been proofread and may still contain too much of my feelings in the empathetic listener portion. However, let me share my rationale for that, to me empathy means I can feel what you feel, and that is the message I'm trying to relate here, not criticism, but rather identification with those feelings.

Grateful and eternally hopeful,

Tony

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Fun is the tough one while I'm on call, so it basically is just marking time. No wild nights out. (Not that I do that anyway) &#8230; I did tinker with the car a bit, but didn't see how to get the trunk lock cylinder out of the T-Bird, and none of my repair manuals addressed that either, so I'll post on a T-Bird board. &#8230; So I watched TV and played with the cat. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now that sounds like some mighty mellow, but enjoyable, fun. I mean, what could possibly be better than working on the car, watching some TV, and playing pounce with the cat? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

What kind of cat do you have? What kind of dog do you have? Remember, Tony, you get to define what is &#8220;fun&#8221; and the goal in this is to let yourself feel some happiness if you can. Sometimes just being present in the moment and enjoying it is all the happiness you need, and it&#8217;s not big and momentous&#8230;it&#8217;s just quiet joy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>You know, what is sad is that it seems the only emotion I notice that I have is one of those shades of anger.</strong>

and

<strong> But, if my only emotion is anger, frustration, being Fed Up, no wonder W doesn't want to be around. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YAY! Oh, Tony you are a joy to my heart! Okay, this is a fairly major breakthrough, actually. If the main emotion I expressed to you was irritation, frustration, displeasure, annoyance, anger and rage, it wouldn&#8217;t take you too long to not enjoy being with me. In fact, with friends like that, who needs enemies, right? So the point in all this is not to make you feel guilty or anything, but rather to recognize, &#8220;Ah ha! This is what I have been like to be with!&#8221; and then to adjust.

Two quick side notes. #1-there is no way that one person can tell a friend this and have it make it through to their heart. If I had said to you directly that the reason your wife was away was because what you were expressing to her was hurtful, you might have argued or thought about it, but it wouldn&#8217;t have &#8220;made sense&#8221; like it makes sense to you now. When the day comes that you understand/see this on your own, it is a good &#8220;light-bulb&#8221; moment.

#2-this whole concept is what Harley is talking about when he suggests Plan A. I think too many people interpret Plan A as being a doormat and meeting their spouse&#8217;s needs while the spouse is actively involved in an affair. NOPE! Plan A is when you realize that what you&#8217;re doing and how your behaving and the feelings you&#8217;re expressing are not attractive to any human being, including your spouse. Having realized that, Plan A is remembering the person you ARE and becoming the person you are meant to be, so that you are a person who is attractive.

So, Tony-meister, this is why we are practicing joy. Practice being happy. Practice being pleasant to be with. Practice laughing and enjoying life. Now, it&#8217;s hard to practice something when you don&#8217;t feel that way at all, so if we can gradually introduce some of the fun, friendly, cheerful, courteous, compassionate, kind, gentle, good-hearted feelings that I KNOW you are, why then who wouldn&#8217;t want to be with a guy like that?? You&#8217;d be back to being the man you are created to be!


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>&#8230;But what alarms me more is the fact that I don't really have many examples where I feel joy. &#8230; I spend a lot of time in prayer and reading scripture, and I don't feel the "Joy of the Lord" &#8230; I suppose I'm more at peace, and I don't stay irritated nearly as long, so I suppose that is a start.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don&#8217;t want to assume anything here, so please don&#8217;t be offended, but you do know that the joy of the Lord is not like ecstatic bliss poured out of the sky, right? (rib rib) Part of feeling joy is allowing yourself to feel it-as in, giving yourself permission to DO something joyful or giving yourself permission to feel happy even though you&#8217;re going through separation. Frankly, I used to feel guilty when I was going through my exH&#8217;s affair and our separation and I would feel happy for a few minutes-as if it was disrespectful to feel any happiness. He was leaving and I was &#8220;supposed to&#8221; be devastated-not happy! Anyway, I got over that (as you can tell). The more you take little moments in your life to have fun-joke-kid-laugh the more joy you will feel. Here&#8217;s something little you could do: go to the park and swing. Roll down a hill (it&#8217;s REALLY fun!!). Go down the slide. I know-you&#8217;re an adult and you&#8217;d feel silly, but do it in the evening if you have to, because for a few seconds you&#8217;ll feel like a kid and be happy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>&#8230;I also had a preliminary performance review and this whole marital trouble issue is affecting my work. &#8230; My boss is sympathetic and he notices that I'm getting better, but he gave me "the talk" yesterday, so I better mind my P's and Q's for a while. &#8230; I was humbled and just wanted to get it over because I know I've been letting little things go, and haven't been doing as much pro-active support work as he would like.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmm&#8230;what IS pro-active support work? Is that offering support/maintenance before the customers ask for it or call in an emergency? Is it sort of like preventative support??

Tony, no one likes to have a performance review that is less than stellar, but don&#8217;t beat yourself up too badly. I know you tend to be VERY hard on yourself, and so I&#8217;m encouraging you to give yourself a break and some understanding. When a couple goes through marital trouble and possibly divorce, it is bound to affect your work because it affects your core being. I can&#8217;t tell you how many people I&#8217;ve met who discover their H or W is having an A, then lose their job, then lose their spouse, kids, and home-all because they are so hurt and shocked they can&#8217;t concentrate. If you can get back on track at work, more power to ya, but if you have difficulty, let yourself be a human and tell your boss so you two can brainstorm solutions together. I&#8217;m sure he recognizes that this is temporary and that you can do your job.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> I think you just did. No I'm not making this up. You just did show me "how to listen with his feelings and put his own needs aside..."

When I read that, &#8230; I realized something, based on the contents of this entire message. That since my predominant emotions expressed recently are negative that&#8217;s what comes out when I deal with my W. &#8230; So when she says something or tells me how she feels I tell or show her my emotions as well, and often that emotion is a negative one. &#8230; So while I'm thinking it's good to express how I feel because that is what I see you or W doing, you take it as I'm not validating your feelings at all. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Very good, grasshopper. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Oh, I am so proud of you!! GREAT JOB! You really are getting this! YAY!!

If the predominant emotion that is expressed to your W is irritation, frustration, displeasure, annoyance, and anger-then she is going to associate you with being displeased with her and annoyed at her. OTOH, if the predominant emotion that is expressed is a positive emotion such as kindness or happiness or pleasure, then she will associate you with being pleased with her.

There is no doubt that it IS valuable to express your emotions, whether they are positive or negative, and it is good to be transparently honest and not let things bug you and build into resentment; however, timing is everything! I&#8217;m not advocating that you walk on eggshells-that will never work-I&#8217;m saying that a wise man knows when to express his opinion and feelings, and when to wait a little and validate now. I&#8217;m also not advocating just letting feelings loose all heggitty peggity without some thought and consideration being given-and that goes for both partners. In our discussion here, I did not tell you that I felt angry or hurt without giving some consideration to the timing and receptiveness of the audience (and frankly, I took a guess and a chance); and to be quite frank, I would not advise your W to just express her feelings all over either without due consideration as to YOUR emotional state of being. It&#8217;s only fair and mutual.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>So when I read that you are apprehensive (how's that for vocabulary, LOL?) about this, first I think well that don't make sense, I'm the one with the problem here. However, I think a bit more about it and realize (perhaps even go so far as to feel) like you really do care and are trying to balance that with some fear that the tail of the buffalo may get you again. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, Tony, you are so right on! It&#8217;s a joy to see!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> First, apprehensive is a wonderful vocabulary word, so let&#8217;s use that tonight. Next, you are exactly right about your realization: I really do care, and I am balancing the caring with the being hit by the buffalo swat. BTW, I also do realize that the buffalo did not swat with intent to harm-he just felt something buzzing on his coat and instinct took over.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>So I ask you to do two things. First keep trying, everyday, there are changes, however subtle, things that I grasp that I didn't grasp before. However, for both of us, it takes a while to learn new habits. Which brings me to the second part. I'm asking you to do the same thing you are asking me to do, to try do the same things with me regarding "the facts" &#8230; I don't know how you will take this, so I ask you to just read first and then tell me how this makes you feel. &#8230; I didn't mean to hurt YOU in the example above about the custody and visitation issues, but you were hurt. In the same fashion, I am bothered when a question I've asked isn't so much as acknowledged, rhetorical or otherwise. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OMG <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Tony, OF COURSE I&#8217;m going to keep trying. You are making wonderful progress and doing a great job. Heck, I wouldn&#8217;t give up on you if you were doing a horrible job, but you&#8217;re like my star student (haha). I&#8217;m literally stunned with your progress and I think you are just AWESOME! You&#8217;re changes are far from subtle-they are monumental.

The second request confuses me a little because you didn&#8217;t come right out and verbalize what it is you exactly want me to do. I hear that you want me to &#8220;try to do the same things with you regarding the facts&#8221;&#8230;what does that mean? And then you mentioned that you are bothered when one of your questions isn&#8217;t acknowledged&#8230;
Let me put it this way: with you I am learning and practicing several new things. First, don&#8217;t assign/assume emotions that you have not specifically stated you have (in other words, don&#8217;t project feelings). Second, as much as possible be factually accurate. Some new things from the last few days are: don&#8217;t take it personally-ask if it was meant personally first. Are you asking me to acknowledge each of your questions even if it seems to be rhetorical? If so, cool, I agree. If not, could you please clarify what you would like? Try to be as specific as possible, and I have no problem trying to learn and practice too.

See, the beauty here is that I know you are not going to do perfectly when you are practicing. Heck, I know what ESTJ&#8217;s are like and I still took your response personally and I still projected some feelings. I blew it. But I&#8217;m practicing too, so when I do blow it, I can re-evaluate, see where I went wrong, and decide on a new and better response for next time. Same for you. I&#8217;m not setting you up for failure, but I do expect that there are going to be times that you blow it. Okay&#8230;so re-evaluate, see where you went wrong, and decide on a new and better response for next time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>So what I'm trying to do here is build a bridge, to say that I hear what you are saying and am trying to give examples that demonstrate where I have similar feelings. Not in an attempt to find fault with you. I am aware that as an INFP, you may not take criticism well, but rather as my way of saying, I do understand how you can feel that way because there is a set of circumstances that lead me to feel in a very similar fashion. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You&#8217;re cute. Thank you for trying to be so diplomatic. I appreciate that. I do not take it as a criticism and I totally do understand.

NOW...assignments:

1) Fun. I'd like you to stretch yourself on this one a little, Tony. I know you're on-call so you need to be near a phone, but try for something you remember doing that you just LOVED.

2)Vocabulary. You know! "Apprehensive" What does apprehensive mean to you...and when do you feel apprehensive?

3) Check in. Ahhh...this one is hard for you. Let's see, what would make it easier? How about if you check in upon waking up, lunch, dinner, and bedtime and you ask yourself:
Do I feel happy? Do I feel sad? Do I feel angry? Do I feel peaceful? Do I feel apprehensive? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

4) Empathetic listening and response. Oh boy! Our favorite! Here we go--let's give it another try:

"No matter how many times I tell him and tell him and tell him, it's like he doesn't hear me. Why doesn't he just get it? If he felt love toward me, he'd know what to do, and since he doesn't know what to do, he must not love me. Honestly, he knows how to flirt with every other woman on earth--just not me. I don't want to beg for his love and attention anymore. It's degrading. If he can't chase after me, then fine...I give up."

(P.S. this is not, NOT, NOT my voice!!! This is the kind of thing I often hear from wives who have left their husbands. It is an example only...I do not feel this way!!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Now, Tony, what feelings has the writer expressed? What are the feeling words and which words hold more subtle feeling connoctations?

How might you respond empathetically to this writer? In what way could you express that you not only HEAR how she feels, but understand? Can you somehow indicate whether you think she's normal or it's reasonable to feel that way??


GOOD LUCK, and have a lovely weekend. I'll be online tomorrow night, but during the day I'll be at work doing at least a LITTLE work. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Your true and faithful friend,


CJ

CJ,

I just want to give a very short, by most standards, not just mine, update.

I just returned from a game night at church. I arrived late and had to leave early due to work and letting out my German Shepherd doggie.

I have a service call at 3AM, another Sunday at 3AM, and a third scheduled for 6AM on Sunday.

So I can't promise timely updates.

However, today was an up and down day, but I didn't kill any customers, regardless of how much this one particular defense contractor tried to frustrate me.

Stay tuned for further details...

Thanks,

Tony

ps, I think you got the gist of what I was asking to do, but I will give a more complete answer l8r

<small>[ March 19, 2004, 09:12 PM: Message edited by: javaSansContour ]</small>

I want to open this with
BEING ON CALL SUCKS My internal clock is now way off and probably will not return to normal until Monday or Tuesday with the 3AM calls this morning and again Sunday morning. Not to mention a 6:30AM call Friday morn.

Ok, enough whine...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Fun is the tough one while I'm on call, so it basically is just marking time. No wild nights out. (Not that I do that anyway) &#8230; I did tinker with the car a bit, but didn't see how to get the trunk lock cylinder out of the T-Bird, and none of my repair manuals addressed that either, so I'll post on a T-Bird board. &#8230; So I watched TV and played with the cat. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now that sounds like some mighty mellow, but enjoyable, fun. I mean, what could possibly be better than working on the car, watching some TV, and playing pounce with the cat? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

What kind of cat do you have?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Felinus Maxiumus Fattius. He kinda looks like Garfield, but with a more dainty head to give his girth even more contrast. He exists solely to convert oxygen into C02, fill litter boxes, beg for food, and most recently, to sit on my lap while I try to use the computer.

Mind you, this was a cat that would go out of his way to avoid me.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong>
What kind of dog do you have?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">German Shepherd, with semi long hair. He is about 95# of puppy, even though he is close to 10 years old now.

His job is to beg to be let outside, only to bark at every moving thing, getting himself called back inside.

He has not learned that barking is NOT a integral part of hunting squirrels or stray cats.

I have helped him catch a rabbit, but he didn't seem to remember the lesson. Although the thought the rabbit tasted pretty good <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong>
Remember, Tony, you get to define what is &#8220;fun&#8221; and the goal in this is to let yourself feel some happiness if you can. Sometimes just being present in the moment and enjoying it is all the happiness you need, and it&#8217;s not big and momentous&#8230;it&#8217;s just quiet joy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>You know, what is sad is that it seems the only emotion I notice that I have is one of those shades of anger.</strong>

and

<strong> But, if my only emotion is anger, frustration, being Fed Up, no wonder W doesn't want to be around. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YAY! Oh, Tony you are a joy to my heart! Okay, this is a fairly major breakthrough, actually. If the main emotion I expressed to you was irritation, frustration, displeasure, annoyance, anger and rage, it wouldn&#8217;t take you too long to not enjoy being with me. In fact, with friends like that, who needs enemies, right? So the point in all this is not to make you feel guilty or anything, but rather to recognize, &#8220;Ah ha! This is what I have been like to be with!&#8221; and then to adjust.

Two quick side notes. #1-there is no way that one person can tell a friend this and have it make it through to their heart. If I had said to you directly that the reason your wife was away was because what you were expressing to her was hurtful, you might have argued or thought about it, but it wouldn&#8217;t have &#8220;made sense&#8221; like it makes sense to you now. When the day comes that you understand/see this on your own, it is a good &#8220;light-bulb&#8221; moment.

#2-this whole concept is what Harley is talking about when he suggests Plan A. I think too many people interpret Plan A as being a doormat and meeting their spouse&#8217;s needs while the spouse is actively involved in an affair. NOPE! Plan A is when you realize that what you&#8217;re doing and how your behaving and the feelings you&#8217;re expressing are not attractive to any human being, including your spouse. Having realized that, Plan A is remembering the person you ARE and becoming the person you are meant to be, so that you are a person who is attractive.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So you also understand the source of my frustration, that I've not been able to be that attractive person.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong>

So, Tony-meister, this is why we are practicing joy. Practice being happy. Practice being pleasant to be with. Practice laughing and enjoying life. Now, it&#8217;s hard to practice something when you don&#8217;t feel that way at all, so if we can gradually introduce some of the fun, friendly, cheerful, courteous, compassionate, kind, gentle, good-hearted feelings that I KNOW you are, why then who wouldn&#8217;t want to be with a guy like that?? You&#8217;d be back to being the man you are created to be!


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>&#8230;But what alarms me more is the fact that I don't really have many examples where I feel joy. &#8230; I spend a lot of time in prayer and reading scripture, and I don't feel the "Joy of the Lord" &#8230; I suppose I'm more at peace, and I don't stay irritated nearly as long, so I suppose that is a start.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don&#8217;t want to assume anything here, so please don&#8217;t be offended, but you do know that the joy of the Lord is not like ecstatic bliss poured out of the sky, right? (rib rib) Part of feeling joy is allowing yourself to feel it-as in, giving yourself permission to DO something joyful or giving yourself permission to feel happy even though you&#8217;re going through separation. Frankly, I used to feel guilty when I was going through my exH&#8217;s affair and our separation and I would feel happy for a few minutes-as if it was disrespectful to feel any happiness. He was leaving and I was &#8220;supposed to&#8221; be devastated-not happy! Anyway, I got over that (as you can tell). The more you take little moments in your life to have fun-joke-kid-laugh the more joy you will feel. Here&#8217;s something little you could do: go to the park and swing. Roll down a hill (it&#8217;s REALLY fun!!). Go down the slide. I know-you&#8217;re an adult and you&#8217;d feel silly, but do it in the evening if you have to, because for a few seconds you&#8217;ll feel like a kid and be happy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>&#8230;I also had a preliminary performance review and this whole marital trouble issue is affecting my work. &#8230; My boss is sympathetic and he notices that I'm getting better, but he gave me "the talk" yesterday, so I better mind my P's and Q's for a while. &#8230; I was humbled and just wanted to get it over because I know I've been letting little things go, and haven't been doing as much pro-active support work as he would like.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmm&#8230;what IS pro-active support work? Is that offering support/maintenance before the customers ask for it or call in an emergency? Is it sort of like preventative support??
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, proactive support is when we try to fix things before they break, preventative maintenance. It's relatively easy to get a companies management interested in this sort of thing. However, it's harder to get them to actually foster an environment where they take the time to be proactive.

It's a delicate balance, because with every say three or four fixes, there is a new bug introduced. This was a pretty standard metric 20 years ago when I was studying software engineering and I really don't think it has changed much in two decades.

It was one of the big reasons folks were saying SDI would never work, and it made me chuckle when Windows 98 came out and in a press release said better than Windows 95 with over 3000 bugs fixed. Or something to that effect. I say, great, over 1000 new improved bugs, oh YEA!!!

So yeah, we try to collect configuration information and system messages and logs to analyze them, detect faults before they occur and to warn customers of potential bugs they face before they cause an unscheduled outage.

You may or may not be surprised to find out how many customers buy redundant hardware to configure a highly available system, only to configure it wrong, create single points of failure than end up crashing their system

I don't know if I went into detail about my contractor friends, but they lost the machine that managed their backups.

They didn't have a good recovery plan for that machine. Seems it makes the recovery of production data really difficult.

I spoke with them yesterday, gave him an idea that will give him a backup of that machine in about 20 minutes and the ability to recover in about 60-90 minutes, all with one CD and a network connection.

All for free too!


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong>
Tony, no one likes to have a performance review that is less than stellar, but don&#8217;t beat yourself up too badly. I know you tend to be VERY hard on yourself, and so I&#8217;m encouraging you to give yourself a break and some understanding. When a couple goes through marital trouble and possibly divorce, it is bound to affect your work because it affects your core being. I can&#8217;t tell you how many people I&#8217;ve met who discover their H or W is having an A, then lose their job, then lose their spouse, kids, and home-all because they are so hurt and shocked they can&#8217;t concentrate. If you can get back on track at work, more power to ya, but if you have difficulty, let yourself be a human and tell your boss so you two can brainstorm solutions together. I&#8217;m sure he recognizes that this is temporary and that you can do your job.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> I think you just did. No I'm not making this up. You just did show me "how to listen with his feelings and put his own needs aside..."

When I read that, &#8230; I realized something, based on the contents of this entire message. That since my predominant emotions expressed recently are negative that&#8217;s what comes out when I deal with my W. &#8230; So when she says something or tells me how she feels I tell or show her my emotions as well, and often that emotion is a negative one. &#8230; So while I'm thinking it's good to express how I feel because that is what I see you or W doing, you take it as I'm not validating your feelings at all. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Very good, grasshopper. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Oh, I am so proud of you!! GREAT JOB! You really are getting this! YAY!!

If the predominant emotion that is expressed to your W is irritation, frustration, displeasure, annoyance, and anger-then she is going to associate you with being displeased with her and annoyed at her. OTOH, if the predominant emotion that is expressed is a positive emotion such as kindness or happiness or pleasure, then she will associate you with being pleased with her.

There is no doubt that it IS valuable to express your emotions, whether they are positive or negative, and it is good to be transparently honest and not let things bug you and build into resentment; however, timing is everything! I&#8217;m not advocating that you walk on eggshells-that will never work-I&#8217;m saying that a wise man knows when to express his opinion and feelings, and when to wait a little and validate now. I&#8217;m also not advocating just letting feelings loose all heggitty peggity without some thought and consideration being given-and that goes for both partners. In our discussion here, I did not tell you that I felt angry or hurt without giving some consideration to the timing and receptiveness of the audience (and frankly, I took a guess and a chance); and to be quite frank, I would not advise your W to just express her feelings all over either without due consideration as to YOUR emotional state of being. It&#8217;s only fair and mutual.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>So when I read that you are apprehensive (how's that for vocabulary, LOL?) about this, first I think well that don't make sense, I'm the one with the problem here. However, I think a bit more about it and realize (perhaps even go so far as to feel) like you really do care and are trying to balance that with some fear that the tail of the buffalo may get you again. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, Tony, you are so right on! It&#8217;s a joy to see!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> First, apprehensive is a wonderful vocabulary word, so let&#8217;s use that tonight. Next, you are exactly right about your realization: I really do care, and I am balancing the caring with the being hit by the buffalo swat. BTW, I also do realize that the buffalo did not swat with intent to harm-he just felt something buzzing on his coat and instinct took over.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>So I ask you to do two things. First keep trying, everyday, there are changes, however subtle, things that I grasp that I didn't grasp before. However, for both of us, it takes a while to learn new habits. Which brings me to the second part. I'm asking you to do the same thing you are asking me to do, to try do the same things with me regarding "the facts" &#8230; I don't know how you will take this, so I ask you to just read first and then tell me how this makes you feel. &#8230; I didn't mean to hurt YOU in the example above about the custody and visitation issues, but you were hurt. In the same fashion, I am bothered when a question I've asked isn't so much as acknowledged, rhetorical or otherwise. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OMG <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Tony, OF COURSE I&#8217;m going to keep trying. You are making wonderful progress and doing a great job. Heck, I wouldn&#8217;t give up on you if you were doing a horrible job, but you&#8217;re like my star student (haha). I&#8217;m literally stunned with your progress and I think you are just AWESOME! You&#8217;re changes are far from subtle-they are monumental.

The second request confuses me a little because you didn&#8217;t come right out and verbalize what it is you exactly want me to do. I hear that you want me to &#8220;try to do the same things with you regarding the facts&#8221;&#8230;what does that mean? And then you mentioned that you are bothered when one of your questions isn&#8217;t acknowledged&#8230;
Let me put it this way: with you I am learning and practicing several new things. First, don&#8217;t assign/assume emotions that you have not specifically stated you have (in other words, don&#8217;t project feelings). Second, as much as possible be factually accurate. Some new things from the last few days are: don&#8217;t take it personally-ask if it was meant personally first. Are you asking me to acknowledge each of your questions even if it seems to be rhetorical? If so, cool, I agree. If not, could you please clarify what you would like? Try to be as specific as possible, and I have no problem trying to learn and practice too.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, that's pretty much it. Since you know the fact that I'm not trying to hurt your feelings, make sure you understand the facts. Especially with facts. So if you begin to feel hurt, ask yourself, what is the objective here, because he says he is not trying to hurt me.

Now that doesn't relieve me of the responsiblity of trying not to hurt you. So I'm asking you to share with me how and why you begin to feel hurt. I realize that may feel like I'm asking you to justify your feelings. I don't know how to address that concern. I'll keep telling you and trying to show you that your feelings are yours and there is no right and wrong regarding your feelings. However, I can't promise to understand how you got there, and furthermore, I'd like learn more about how a message was interpreted or perhaps mis-interpreted. Did I phrase is vaguely, for instance?

On to the acknowleging questions. Many of my thoughts are expressed in questions. rhetorical or otherwise. So much like you encourage me to be empathetic and to acknowledge the feelings you express. To say something about my questions does the same thing.

I know I'm making this up as I go along, but I'm trying to build a parallel framework here. So much like me addressing your feelings validates your feelings, addressing my questions validates that what I'm thinking about is important to you.

Even if you don't come to the same conclusions (in the case of a rhetorical question) or have an answer, to say something like I've thought about that too, or that's an interesting question and here are some of my thoughts on it.

Just like you express yourself and connect with others primarily on a feeling basis, I connect with people via their thoughts.

So I get the best connection when you share your thoughts with me.

For instance, I would ask:

What do you think about the designated hitter in baseball? I would be looking for the pros and cons of it all.

You might ask me, do I like the designated hitter rules.

We are both talking about baseball, but we have different ways to view the same subject.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong>

See, the beauty here is that I know you are not going to do perfectly when you are practicing. Heck, I know what ESTJ&#8217;s are like and I still took your response personally and I still projected some feelings. I blew it. But I&#8217;m practicing too, so when I do blow it, I can re-evaluate, see where I went wrong, and decide on a new and better response for next time. Same for you. I&#8217;m not setting you up for failure, but I do expect that there are going to be times that you blow it. Okay&#8230;so re-evaluate, see where you went wrong, and decide on a new and better response for next time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>So what I'm trying to do here is build a bridge, to say that I hear what you are saying and am trying to give examples that demonstrate where I have similar feelings. Not in an attempt to find fault with you. I am aware that as an INFP, you may not take criticism well, but rather as my way of saying, I do understand how you can feel that way because there is a set of circumstances that lead me to feel in a very similar fashion. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You&#8217;re cute. Thank you for trying to be so diplomatic. I appreciate that. I do not take it as a criticism and I totally do understand.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That was one of the first things I learned in the past 6 months, is that INFP's can take what seems to me as a minor critique and turn it into something much more than it is.

I go back to the issue of the dishes. For me to say, wouldn't it be easier to just load the dishwasher directly instead of piling up dishes in the sink. I believe my W heard, "He thinks I'm a lousy housekeeper."

No, I just said you don't do the dishes as efficiently as possible.

Well, that what I think happens, and many of the descriptions of the INFP seem to bear this out in many cases.

Of course, YMMV.

Ok, I need to eat, get dressed, and ponder the remainder of my assignments here.

Thanks,

Tony

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong>

NOW...assignments:

1) Fun. I'd like you to stretch yourself on this one a little, Tony. I know you're on-call so you need to be near a phone, but try for something you remember doing that you just LOVED.

2)Vocabulary. You know! "Apprehensive" What does apprehensive mean to you...and when do you feel apprehensive?

3) Check in. Ahhh...this one is hard for you. Let's see, what would make it easier? How about if you check in upon waking up, lunch, dinner, and bedtime and you ask yourself:
Do I feel happy? Do I feel sad? Do I feel angry? Do I feel peaceful? Do I feel apprehensive? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

4) Empathetic listening and response. Oh boy! Our favorite! Here we go--let's give it another try:

"No matter how many times I tell him and tell him and tell him, it's like he doesn't hear me. Why doesn't he just get it? If he felt love toward me, he'd know what to do, and since he doesn't know what to do, he must not love me. Honestly, he knows how to flirt with every other woman on earth--just not me. I don't want to beg for his love and attention anymore. It's degrading. If he can't chase after me, then fine...I give up."

(P.S. this is not, NOT, NOT my voice!!! This is the kind of thing I often hear from wives who have left their husbands. It is an example only...I do not feel this way!!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Now, Tony, what feelings has the writer expressed? What are the feeling words and which words hold more subtle feeling connoctations?

How might you respond empathetically to this writer? In what way could you express that you not only HEAR how she feels, but understand? Can you somehow indicate whether you think she's normal or it's reasonable to feel that way??


GOOD LUCK, and have a lovely weekend. I'll be online tomorrow night, but during the day I'll be at work doing at least a LITTLE work. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Your true and faithful friend,


CJ </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

AHH HAAA!

I get it. The responding to your questions thing is sharing THOUGHTS! Gotcha!

I am just leaving work and unable to write a long, involved response to you, but I wanted you to know that I understand what you're saying about the questions (at least, I believe I do) and I'll respect that. It makes sense and seems like courteous fairplay to me.

Second, I'd like to throw out a quick "other side of the coin" on the whole doing dishes thing. As I understand it, from your POV the goal is to do the dishes in the most time/effort-effecient manner. Like your wife, I tend to pile dishes in the sink, but that's because efficiency is not my goal. My goal is to prioritize "doing dishes" on the list of other projects I also need to get done such as: feed family, walk or care for pets, start homework, get son at work, do some work I brought home, help kids with homework, vacuum, wipe off counters and stove, clean kitchen/do dishes, do 2 loads of laundry for clothes tomorrow, pack kids' lunches and backpacks for tomorrow (or at least supervise the packing), sign papers or permission slips or whatever, get kids ready for and into bed, spend some time talking to them about their day and their friends and teachers. With a list like that, I prioritize family time and kid time #1 (helping them, being available for them, organizing them) and kitchen-vaccuum-laundry #2 and my work #3.

Now, just so we're clear, this is not an argument or a disagreement so much as an FYI so you can see how we come to the conclusion we come to. It's not lack of respect for your efficient method, it's just that efficiency is not my highest goal--being there for the kids/family is.

In this instance, if a couple were really squabbling over this (and trust me, people do!) I'd suggest finding mutually respectful ground. If it's bugging you for dishes to sit in the sink, and it bugs her to have you show her how to load the dishwasher, then neither way is building the marriage. There is not one winner and one loser--pick something you can both live with...like, after dinner the kids have 15 minutes to get out their backpacks and get organized to do their homework--and mom and dad work together on the dishes and talk together about their days and squirt each other with the dishes hose and have dishes soap beards. His goal of efficiency (or at least, better efficiency) is met and her goal of close, playful family time together is met--both win and both are saying "your need is important to me."

Oh, and BTW, I have to confess that when my exH showed me how to load the dishwasher properly, I also took it to mean that he thought I was a poor housekeeper. I mean seriously--I was a grown woman and did not care if pans on the bottom is not the way he'd do it. Plus, it was presented to me in a tone and manner that demonstrated irritation and displeasure...as if to say, "Don't you even know how to load a dishwasher?" That's very belittling. So tone means a lot.

Okay--I've got to run for now, and it's funny because I'm almost 42 and I run like a girl. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


CJ

Hi Tony!

I'm right in the middle of watching Weekend Update on Saturday Night Live, so you must be pretty special. I love their sarcasm and the fact that they assume their audience knows who Howard Dean is. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

As I promised, I want to take the time now to at least acknowledge, if not respond to, all your questions. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> Okay, no kidding. I have the time now and I did want to take the time to respond thoroughly.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:
<strong> I want to open this with
BEING ON CALL SUCKS My internal clock is now way off and probably will not return to normal until Monday or Tuesday with the 3AM calls this morning and again Sunday morning. Not to mention a 6:30AM call Friday morn.

Ok, enough whine... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Would you like some cheese with that whine?? heehee. I know exactly what you mean through about being on call. Being a night owl, I usually "volunteer" for overnight on call, and then pretty much feel sick in the morning. I am currently the night on call for the electronics division of my security company (in other words, if a burgular alarm starts beepeing and the keycode SHOULD turn off the alarm but doesn't--guess who they call? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Yep! I'm also the weekend overnight rape crisis hotline volunteer, and almost every night I get a call from a transexual rape victim with multiple personalities. That guy/gal REALLY needs to talk!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> Felinus Maxiumus Fattius. He kinda looks like Garfield, but with a more dainty head to give his girth even more contrast. He exists solely to convert oxygen into C02, fill litter boxes, beg for food, and most recently, to sit on my lap while I try to use the computer.

Mind you, this was a cat that would go out of his way to avoid me. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm literally giggling. My cat's name IS Garfield, and he's an orange tiger cat who uses the cartoon strip kitty as his role model. Garfield will eat if I feed it to him. He will eat the dog's food any time I leave it within his sight (just to tease the dog). He will lie on my bed on the spot in the sun all day long...then stretch and walk to the food bowl...then meow and walk to the litter box...then lay back down again becasue he is EXHAUSTED! heehee. He will lie on the back of my couch and pretend he's not watching...then stretch and walk to the food bowl and whine...tease the dog on the way to the litter box...and another day is done!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> German Shepherd, with semi long hair. He is about 95# of puppy, even though he is close to 10 years old now. ... His job is to beg to be let outside, only to bark at every moving thing, getting himself called back inside. ... He has not learned that barking is NOT a integral part of hunting squirrels or stray cats. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, don't give me grief, but my dog is a Maltese. The funny this is, I do not like small dogs and never wanted one, but my exH did. He spent $400 on a purebred and within a month, he left us all and left the dog with us. At the time when the ex left, our puppy was about five months old--he's about 18 months now--and that little guy slept at the foot of my bed every night, and jumped and smiled when I came hom e at night. Eventually, even though he was puppy-crazy and small, he grew on me. In fact, he's at my feet now. His name is Wolfie, but he could EASILY be Odie--that darn cat gets him EVERY time and he's just smiles and tilts his head as if to say, "HUH??"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I have helped him catch a rabbit, but he didn't seem to remember the lesson. Although the thought the rabbit tasted pretty good <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">EWWWWWW!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>So you also understand the source of my frustration, that I've not been able to be that attractive person. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep--I can understand that, but I also do know that the attractive person is in there. He sort of got buried by all the shades of anger, and I don't think your W believes he's under there...but he is!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Yes, proactive support is when we try to fix things before they break, preventative maintenance. It's relatively easy to get a companies management interested in this sort of thing. However, it's harder to get them to actually foster an environment where they take the time to be proactive.

It's a delicate balance, because with every say three or four fixes, there is a new bug introduced. This was a pretty standard metric 20 years ago when I was studying software engineering and I really don't think it has changed much in two decades.

It was one of the big reasons folks were saying SDI would never work, and it made me chuckle when Windows 98 came out and in a press release said better than Windows 95 with over 3000 bugs fixed. Or something to that effect. I say, great, over 1000 new improved bugs, oh YEA!!!

So yeah, we try to collect configuration information and system messages and logs to analyze them, detect faults before they occur and to warn customers of potential bugs they face before they cause an unscheduled outage. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh my heavens, this is funny. I totally understand what you mean, because our touchscreen restaurant software that we sold, installed, programmed, trained end-users on, and supported was very similar (not on a Windows 98 level--but the "fix three bugs and introduce one more" level). We had preventative maintenance agreements for both software and hardware, and whenever a new, proven-stable version came out, we were busy for days. Yep, we looked at errorlogs and userlogs for potential bugs before they occurred--so I'm right there with ya!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> You may or may not be surprised to find out how many customers buy redundant hardware to configure a highly available system, only to configure it wrong, create single points of failure than end up crashing their system. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope--not surprised one bit. You would be stunned to know how many restaurants have a terminal as a server, and if that one piece of equipment fails they are DOWN and have no backup and no "crash kit" (which is basically, a sales tax table, a menu with prices, hand-written table checks, and pens!). Nope, ONE piece of equipment which they spill beer and soda on, is their only way of operating their restaurant.

We tell them..."have a redundant hard drive" (nope--they'd have to spend a few hundred extra dollars) or "have a dedicated fileserver safely on a shelf in an office" (nope--a few more feet of wire and an extra PC) or "well at least back up your database and your payroll data" (would yo charge us to come out and do that? we'd have to buy CD's to do that??) OY! End-users, I swear!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> I don't know if I went into detail about my contractor friends, but they lost the machine that managed their backups. ... They didn't have a good recovery plan for that machine. Seems it makes the recovery of production data really difficult. ... I spoke with them yesterday, gave him an idea that will give him a backup of that machine in about 20 minutes and the ability to recover in about 60-90 minutes, all with one CD and a network connection.

All for free too!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WOW! That's an offer! And to be able to restore in 60-90 minutes is stunning. I hope they are wise enought to go for it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> Yeah, that's pretty much it. Since you know the fact that I'm not trying to hurt your feelings, make sure you understand the facts. Especially with facts. So if you begin to feel hurt, ask yourself, what is the objective here, because he says he is not trying to hurt me.

Now that doesn't relieve me of the responsiblity of trying not to hurt you. So I'm asking you to share with me how and why you begin to feel hurt. I realize that may feel like I'm asking you to justify your feelings. I don't know how to address that concern. I'll keep telling you and trying to show you that your feelings are yours and there is no right and wrong regarding your feelings. However, I can't promise to understand how you got there, and furthermore, I'd like learn more about how a message was interpreted or perhaps mis-interpreted. Did I phrase is vaguely, for instance?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tony, first let me say that I think I understand what you're asking for, but let me be sure, okay? You would like me to let you know when something is starting to hurt me and ask you if you meant it that way. Then you would like me to explain to you how and why I got hurt so that you might gain some understanding into INFP thinking and hopefully see some patterns.

There's one thing that you asked for that kind of bugged me. You said (and I am quoting here for factual accuracy): "Since you know the fact that I'm not trying to hurt your feelings, make sure you understand the facts. Especially with facts. So if you begin to feel hurt, ask yourself, what is the objective here, because he says he is not trying to hurt me." How do I know if you are or are not trying to hurt me. If I say something that triggers a reaction that should be aimed toward your W but is aimed at me, you can say some pretty hurtful things. Am I supposed to just assume all the time that you are not trying to hurt me? Then what about when you're angry and you say something snappy back? Isn't that kind of trying to hurt someone back who hurt you? And how am I supposed to know what your objective is? See, Tony, I don't mean this cranky but I can not read your mind and I don't build static models of interpretation. Unless you tell me you aren't trying to hurt me, I do not think it is appropriate for me to just assume--nor do I think it's appropriate to assume what your objective is.

What I CAN do is agree to speak up and ask you something like this: "Hey that response hurt me! Did you mean to be hurtful or was that an old habit response or was it an accident and I mis-interpreted it?" This way, I'm not assuming--I'm asking. I can also agree to think the best of you rather than the worst.

One other thing that somewhat bothers me and I'm not sure how to process it (yet--I'll sleep on it) is the concept of promoting/encouraging the "you explain it and I won't be hurt anymore" model. That theory just does not work and I do not want to agree to something that could later be used against me in a manner such as: "you promised to assume I didn't mean to hurt you and if I explained it, you had no reason to feel hurt so you wouldn't." If I agree to that, I believe I am agreeing to encouraging an unhealthy pre-supposition. Sooo...I'll think about it tonight and figure out what I CAN agree to and tell you about it in the morning. Now, morning in the wild, wild west is about 11am your time! haha.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>On to the acknowleging questions. Many of my thoughts are expressed in questions. rhetorical or otherwise. So much like you encourage me to be empathetic and to acknowledge the feelings you express. To say something about my questions does the same thing.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">AAAAAAAH HAAAAAAAAAA! Now this I totally understand and it seems like an entirely reasonable and fair request to me. If' I'm going to ask you to learn to be empathetic, it's fair for me to learn to share my thoughts. Let me warn you about two things though: I would like to encourage you to become more empathetic because it makes you a better man...not because "it's fair" or whatever. Embrace empathy because you want to be that kind of person, no matter whether I choose to share my thoughts or not. Second, just a quick check-in...do you want ME to share MY thoughts, or do you want your INFP wife to share her thoughts with you. Just because you learn to be empathetic does not mean she will even WANT to learn to share her thoughts. Did you consider that? She may just close her heart and say, "NO, I am not willing to do that" and you can't make her.

So, my friend, I encourage you to embrace empathy because more of that attractive man is seen then. Don't be empathetic because she said she'd be factual and share her thoughts either, because that's like shoveling dirt off the grave and just throwing more dirt onto the grave.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I know I'm making this up as I go along, but I'm trying to build a parallel framework here. So much like me addressing your feelings validates your feelings, addressing my questions validates that what I'm thinking about is important to you.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I want to take a moment right now and say out loud that what you are thinking about is important. Thank you for writing it this way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> Even if you don't come to the same conclusions (in the case of a rhetorical question) or have an answer, to say something like I've thought about that too, or that's an interesting question and here are some of my thoughts on it. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Gotcha! See, I'm doing it now. Did you see it or did you miss it? Want me to do it again? Okay...I'll do that!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>What do you think about the designated hitter in baseball? I would be looking for the pros and cons of it all.

You might ask me, do I like the designated hitter rules.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think the designated hitter rule in baseball is ruining the game--but then again I think professional baseball is pretty messed up. Most of the players today are spoiled, pampered brats who have no "love of the game" left in them. I think the only reason a player should ever get a designated hitter is if the player is too injured to bat for himself. Otherwise, I think I pay that player millions of dollars to HIT, RUN, SCORE, CATCH, and THROW on his own!!

AARRGGHH--in case you can't tell, it's a pet peeve and I feel strong emotions about it.

And on that lovely thought (wimpy baseball players who can't even bat for themselves) I bid you a fond good night. I'm tired--it's 1am--and Garfield has awoken from his slumber and raised an eyebrow. I am being summoned into his presence.

Your true and faithful friend,


CJ

Responding to What CJ Said Here:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>
"No matter how many times I tell him and tell him and tell him, it's like he doesn't hear me. Why doesn't he just get it? If he felt love toward me, he'd know what to do, and since he doesn't know what to do, he must not love me. Honestly, he knows how to flirt with every other woman on earth--just not me. I don't want to beg for his love and attention anymore. It's degrading. If he can't chase after me, then fine...I give up."
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First, I can say that my W has said very similar things, even last night. She doesn't see or believe I love her when we talk about money for instance.

Ok, my answer:

I can hear the frustration here, that you really want him to get it and it seems he doesn't get it. I know it must hurt to feel like you don't matter to him, that you are not the most important person in his life.

I hear that you are weary and want to give up. I think I hear you saying that you've tried everything you know to do, and that you don't feel like trying anymore. I want to say that you are not wrong for wanting to feel loved in a certain way. I think it's perfectly reasonable to want to be loved in a certain way.

I'd like to ask you to do this. Instead of focusing on how you think he has failed, I want to ask you what he is doing right. I've heard your complaint and I agree with much of it. Certainly you shouldn't feel like you have to compete with other women for his attention. However, I want to ask you to look at what he is doing right. Why? Because I'd like you to consider if that is his way of showing you his love. Is it possible that he does love you, but just shows it in a different way?

Do you mind if I share the concerns I have about how you feel? Yes, ok, I'll continue.

I have to admit I have trouble with some of what you shared too. For example, I don't agree that he should just know what to do. I hear you saying that you want him to show you love in a certain fashion, but I don't hear you saying that you are looking for how he might be showing you his love.

If so, neither way is inherently right or wrong because each of you are different.

Finally, I ask you to consider if it is fair for you to expect him to love you in your fashion without you accepting the ways he does show his love. Is it possible he feels a similar feeling? Could he be saying, I'm doing X,Y and Z to show her I love her, and she never feels it is good enough?

So can you find middle ground? Acknowledge the ways he does show you he loves you and tell him that you appreciate them, but would appreciate other ways even more. Also consider that he is showing you love in the fashion he wants to be loved. Do you express your love for him in the way you wish he expressed his love for you? Well, if so, then it is just as likely that he is expressing his love for you in a fashion that he wants to experience your love.

I really don't know if this is the case, and I am torn here because I hear your pain, while at the same time, I don't know if you have set up an unreasonable expectation. Only you can answer that question. I can't tell you how to feel, but I ask you to consider the idea that he loves you and is expressing it in his personal fashion.

He may be feeling the same things you do.

Ok, that's my answer, subject more editing.

I'm going to sleep, I hope for about 3 hours, so I can get up and return to church for evening services.

Please read my other thread when you get a chance. DW was kinda upset that I asked her to pray for me. She seems to think I'm trying to manipulate her. I'm not, I just would like her to be a little less skeptical about my prospects for change. I said I'm doing it for me, and I'd simply like to feel like she was supportive and not angry with me all the time.

She said I seemed defensive, and I admitted it was hard to listen to her when she sounds angry at me.

Final thought, we had a ministry fair at church today and I volunteered for the Sunday School department. I used to teach Sunday School as well as was a director at a previous church. They were passing out "Scripture Cookies" (I made that up, I don't think this is a scripture verse) and this is what I got:

"I can run and win the race when I am changed by Jesus Christ and live in ways that please Him."

Isn't Harold great or what?

Eternally Grateful,

Tony

CJ,

I'll address your other posts soon as well. I just cut and pasted the answer I typed into my PDA at 5AM sitting at Denny's between service calls. Really the times were too far apart to return home, and too close together to stay away. But I chose to stay away in order to:

A) Conserve Resources such as time and fuel
B) I'm an extrovert, and I wanted to see people.

I accomplished both, I got to see four patrol cars pick up some "Fast 'n Furious" types at the Denny's as I arrived, saw some cute 20 something girl flirting with one of the guys who worked there, and got a lot of reading, devotional, bible study and did some of my homework.

I would certainly say that I didn't express any of the shades of anger. I didn't even feel them.

However, in Sunday School, I did feel uneasy at times. It is our couples class that W and I used to go to, and obviously, I'm sans partner.

I didn't really feel angry, but was somewhat embarassed and felt guilty that I screwed up my marriage. I know, it takes two, but I can only take responsibility at my part of screwing it up, and I kick myself for not taking my responsiblity as spiritual leader seriously.

So I felt convicted during Sunday School, and even moreso at worship service during the sermon

Well, I'm really tired ad I've been up 11 hours on two hours of sleep. I really couldn't fall asleep last night until about 11pm. I started at about 9PM, but could not relax enough to fall asleep.

1AM came WAAAAAYYYYY too early.

You were just writing as I was getting ready to start my day <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Thanks,

Tony

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:
<strong> First, I can say that my W has said very similar things, even last night. She doesn't see or believe I love her when we talk about money for instance.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I realize that you have had very little sleep so I'm going to respond very, very briefly to this. When I listen to you talk about money, it's as if you know the right way to spend it and split it, and anyone who disagrees is "wrong." However, I suspect that like the dishes, your goal is most efficient money management and her goal is entirely different--thus if your priorities are different, your views of what to do with the money etc. are bound to be different.

I would suggest asking her what her opinion/proposals would be about the money, and then listening to the deeper message--not the facts and figures. For example, if she says you make $6,000.00 per month and she should get $3,000 and you know that if she were actually paid $3,000 per month, you would have little or no money left--my educated guess would be that your instinct would be to argue facts and figures with her. However, her deeper message is that she feels "entitled" to half of your earning. Thus a more productive answer might be to reassure her that you want to give her what she has earned and has the right to, and that you intend to care for her and your daughter.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> I can hear the frustration here, that you really want him to get it and it seems he doesn't get it. I know it must hurt to feel like you don't matter to him, that you are not the most important person in his life.

I hear that you are weary and want to give up. I think I hear you saying that you've tried everything you know to do, and that you don't feel like trying anymore. I want to say that you are not wrong for wanting to feel loved in a certain way. I think it's perfectly reasonable to want to be loved in a certain way. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, not too bad! You indicate that you hear what the writer is saying and feeling, and you kind of translate it into your own paraphrase. Good. You also express understanding and support.

However...if it were me, I would stop here. By continuing on, you lose the impact of your empathy and it seems like you're forcing the writer to "do it your way." Here's the way it is: in real life, you may have expressed your love to her in YOUR way, but you did not communicate in her way, so she feels unloved. Then she says to you that she feels unloved, and you say, "Well feel loved MY way." It's not realistically going to work. The ideal would be if BOTH of you were working to educate yourself on the others' way of receiving love, but at this time that is not what is happening. You are currently doing this alone and she has been very explicit that she has no desire to learn "your way"--she has had enough of "your way"--so pushing her to even consider "your way" is going to push her away from you. At this time, please cease all attempts to educate her or change her, and keep your focus ONLY on you and changing you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> I'd like to ask you to do this. Instead of focusing on how you think he has failed, I want to ask you what he is doing right. I've heard your complaint and I agree with much of it. Certainly you shouldn't feel like you have to compete with other women for his attention. However, I want to ask you to look at what he is doing right. Why? Because I'd like you to consider if that is his way of showing you his love. Is it possible that he does love you, but just shows it in a different way? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If it were me, I would think at this point, "If there were enough things he did right, I would have stayed!" I doubt if you want to even hear the rest. My guess would be that speaking like this to her would not express empathy--it would be viewed as manipulation and would be resisted. If that is what you want to have happen (she hardens her heart, doesn't feel understood, and views you as manipulative and resists you) then I say make her see that you showed her love your way. Otherwise, if that is NOT the desired outcome, I would strongly suggest that you stop focusing on YOUR frustration and YOUR hurt, and focus on how unloved, unappreciated, unacknowledged, and disrespected she feels and focus on validating her feelings. It's up to you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Do you mind if I share the concerns I have about how you feel? Yes, ok, I'll continue.

I have to admit I have trouble with some of what you shared too. For example, I don't agree that he should just know what to do. I hear you saying that you want him to show you love in a certain fashion, but I don't hear you saying that you are looking for how he might be showing you his love.

If so, neither way is inherently right or wrong because each of you are different.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Honestly, I would not even be listening at this point. If my spouse knows how to flirt with a waitress at Hooters, he knows how to flirt with me and chooses not to. If my spouse knows how to say out loud that women are pretty or sexy then he knows how to say that out loud to me and chooses not to. If my spouse knows how to spend time with and laugh with and appear interested in women at work or customers, then he know how to spend time with and laugh with and appear interested in me and chooses not to. If my spouse knows how to write hot sexual emails to women on the internet, he knows how to write hot sexual emails to me and chooses not to. If my spouse knows how to invite other women to go to a ballgame with him or a concert or to dinner, then he knows how to invite me to a ballgame with him or a concert or dinner and chooses not to. If my spouse knows how to be flirtatious and kid around with and hold his irritation and displeasure and temper with his co-workers and superiors, then he knows how to be firtatious and kid around with and hold his temper with me and chooses not to.

He knows how to love me in my way and chooses not to. So yep--at this point I'm probably not even listening.

(BTW Tony, this is partially my own real voice and partially what I think an INFP woman in your W's position might feel/think. Yes, not every spouse flirts with the girls at Hooters in her presence--that's my experience--but every INFP woman would probably have a list about that long of how her spouse knows how to act interested and loving, just not toward her. Does that make sense? It is an example--and I drew on my own life experiences to come up with the examples.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Finally, I ask you to consider if it is fair for you to expect him to love you in your fashion without you accepting the ways he does show his love. Is it possible he feels a similar feeling? Could he be saying, I'm doing X,Y and Z to show her I love her, and she never feels it is good enough?

So can you find middle ground? Acknowledge the ways he does show you he loves you and tell him that you appreciate them, but would appreciate other ways even more. Also consider that he is showing you love in the fashion he wants to be loved. Do you express your love for him in the way you wish he expressed his love for you? Well, if so, then it is just as likely that he is expressing his love for you in a fashion that he wants to experience your love.

I really don't know if this is the case, and I am torn here because I hear your pain, while at the same time, I don't know if you have set up an unreasonable expectation. Only you can answer that question. I can't tell you how to feel, but I ask you to consider the idea that he loves you and is expressing it in his personal fashion.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it's probably wisest not to comment further because I believe you get the gist of my opinion on saying this. However, I will comment that the "unreasonable expectation" part would definitely be viewed as you saying that you think being asked to be loved in her own way is unreasonable. I pretty much guarantee that hearing that will drive her away. Wouldn't you feel pushed away if I said to you that it is unreasonable for you to expect to be loved in your way?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Please read my other thread when you get a chance. DW was kinda upset that I asked her to pray for me. She seems to think I'm trying to manipulate her. I'm not, I just would like her to be a little less skeptical about my prospects for change. I said I'm doing it for me, and I'd simply like to feel like she was supportive and not angry with me all the time.

She said I seemed defensive, and I admitted it was hard to listen to her when she sounds angry at me.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay--I will read your other thread. I know your intentions are good and your heart is in the right place, but I suspect her heart may not be in the right place to hear what you've been learning. Remember, her experience has been that you are irritated and displeased with her all the time, so she's looking to hear that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>"I can run and win the race when I am changed by Jesus Christ and live in ways that please Him."</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tony, I want you to bear in mind that I am not cutting you down or saying you are "bad" or "wrong", but rather proofreading your practice response and informing you what I believe the INFP response would be (or close to it anyway). In summary, I would respond with the first two empathetic, understanding, supportive paragraphs and then STOP THERE. At this time, your job is not to make her see your side or your pain or even to educate her--your job is to release the shades of anger that have been the primary expression to her, and to focus on understanding her and her pain. NOTHING ELSE.

Okay?? Focus, and keep the scope of that focus pretty narrow.

Your true and faithful friend,


CJ