Ok,

So even thought I said these very words "I think it's perfectly reasonable to want to be loved in a certain way."

Yet you tell me that what you are hearing is that I think this is unreasonable.

When everything I say after that is, that perhaps it's unreasonable to expect that as the ONLY way his love is expressed.

I never said the words, wanting to be loved in that way is unreasonable.

I did say that not accepting other ways of being loved MAY be unreasonable, but only she is in the position to judge that.

Furthermore, you asked me if I thought she was reasonable, didn't you?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> CJ Asked:
<strong>How might you respond empathetically to this writer? In what way could you express that you not only HEAR how she feels, but understand? Can you somehow indicate whether you think she's normal or it's reasonable to feel that way??</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I did just that, I shared what I thought was reasonable and I asked her to consider if he also was being resonable from his POV.

So I'm confused how you get from me asking her to consider his POV to saying that she is being unreasonable?

I really don't see this.

That to me seems unreasonable.

Are you saying I'm not allowed to ask her to think?
What about asking how she believes he might feel?

Ok, I get the impression that when a feeler is feeling, that I need to totally repress the thinker in me.

I have a hard time with this, and how do I square this with the whole idea of honesty.

I don't think it is honest for me to withhold my thoughts, especially when you ask me the question about being reasonable.

I know, I probably sound like I'm defending. I'm just trying to tell you how I got to where I am.

It's obvious based on my marriage that I've done this all wrong. I've driven my wife and step daughter away from me, and I'm sitting at home alone tonight typing on the internet instead of talking to a real live person.

I'm tired and not in the best shape right now, so let me sleep on this a while. I'll probably be up at 4AM unless the pager goes off.

Oh, on the other question about what I was asking you to do.

You asked me to control my feelings in a previous message. I supposed I could go look, but I got the impression that you wanted me to hold back...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CJ:
<strong>There is no doubt that it IS valuable to express your emotions, whether they are positive or negative, and it is good to be transparently honest and not let things bug you and build into resentment; however, timing is everything! I’m not advocating that you walk on eggshells-that will never work-I’m saying that a wise man knows when to express his opinion and feelings, and when to wait a little and validate now. I’m also not advocating just letting feelings loose all heggitty peggity without some thought and consideration being given-and that goes for both partners. In our discussion here, I did not tell you that I felt angry or hurt without giving some consideration to the timing and receptiveness of the audience (and frankly, I took a guess and a chance); and to be quite frank, I would not advise your W to just express her feelings all over either without due consideration as to YOUR emotional state of being. It’s only fair and mutual.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know you are saying this for both partners, and I think basically I'm saying the same thing, to hold back until you are sure you understand.

I'm just beginning to wonder if I should be married to an INFP. Last night W said she felt I took her Identity from her.

Now I didn't say what I was thinking, which was how could you let me do that and not tell me you felt that way. What I said was I know this doesn't take the hurt away, but I never wanted to change you or take your identity away from you, so I'm sorry I made you feel that way.

But there is a part of me that wants to say, how could you let someone do that to you without speaking up.

However, it does give me great insight into how she feels. What it doesn't do is make her attractive to me. It appears more like a self-confidence issue.

I just don't know. This is probably all disjointed and confused. Well, that is how my mind is right now.

Eternally Confused, or so it seems,

Tony

Oh, one more thing.

I took the empathetic listening exercise as the writer was talking about a third person and not about me.

I'm somewhat confused by your response because it seems like that person has morphed into my wife in your mind.

I never thought of the writer as my wife, but a friend who was venting to me about her SO.

Next time, I'll ask who the participants are in the discussion. Maybe I missed it if you said I'm supposed to treat each of these as a conversation with my wife.

However, I do understand the point that I should not express what I think or feel in such a situation.

Tony

A second one more thing, LOL

I went to lie down and had what may be an Ah Ha! moment.

I was trying to turn the conversation from feelings to thinking. I was in essence, asking the writer to stop telling me how she feels and start thinking about it.

This would be bad <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> and even if she agreed with my logic, she would feel her feelings were not important.

Tony

Pager called me out of my sleep at midnight, so I'm off to work early this morning instead of doing homework, bible reading, devotional, etc.

I will check in with myself today if I can stay awake...


Thanks,

Tony

Checking In.

I'm not sure I have any other assignments due.

Well, I'm laughing pretty hard right now, watching South Park. Jesus vs Satan

Anyway, how about the last few days.

Well, I've decided to just work on moving on. Looked into refinancing the house and other stuff.

I still catch myself getting impatient, but then I get that under control.

Driving is the hardest as people do the strangest things behind the wheel. I saw two tow truck drivers who worked for the same company teasing each other in the company trucks this morning by swerving into each others lanes and flipping each other off.

Well, I did have the urge to call the number on the trucks, but I decided they hadn't hurt anyone, so what they heck.

I usually find myself getting impatient behind the wheel.

Well, I am getting better at that.

Working out is helping too. Taking out my frustration on stacks of iron really helps.

Well, off to bed. I'm taking the day off tomorrow so I can pick up YD after preschool and have more time with her.

Tony

Checking In,

Last night, I had dinner with a couple from my Sunday School class. They are relatively new to the area and have a 2.5 year old child.

YD had a great time playing with them. So I got to do my E thing, and his W is also an E with F tendancies. He is definately an I, and if I were to guess, probably an ISTJ. Pilot, Air Force, etc.

She, a writer of sorts wanting to write more.

All sorts of emotions. Yesterday, while on the phone with you, a little red light illuminated on the dash of the T-Bird. Oil pressure gauge near but not on Zero. So I have to admit that while talking to you, I was listening for things such as bearing knock and valve clatter.

No sounds, so I kept driving. Hey, what's the worst thing that happens, the car blows the engine, is valued at less money and W gets less of the 401K funds, LOL???

Ok, so I get YD and we go to lunch, build-a-bear etc.

BTW, the gauge drops to zero and recovers, but never fully to the mid-point of it's range. I had done a bit of research before and knew the gauge is just a "dummy" gauge as it really doesn't measure oil pressure. Instead, the sending unit is a swtich and the resistance is set to read mid-gauge if the oil pressure is above 6psi. Since mine didn't read at the mid-point, I suspected the sending unit, or the gauge itself was bad.

That why I was momentarily worried when the red "Check Gauges" (or should that be the Check Wallet) light came on. However, knowing what I know, and gathering more information, I analyzed the information, and stopped worrying.

However it came on several more times yesterday, so off to AutoZone (the only place that had a oil pressure sending switch) while on the way to dinner last night.

So I would get a little upset everytime the light came on, because there was always the possibility that I was wrong about the diagnosis.

But for $4.99 +tax, I would gamble on a pressure sending switch.

So this morning, I get up, make breakfast for me and YD, and we then went outside, and I changed the sending unit.

Gauge reads dead straight in the middle, so all is well, and I feel satisfied that for $5 and 30 minutes of my time, give or take, I have one less worry.

Ok, so I've checked in quite a bit. Maybe an assignment for Sunday AM or Monday AM would be nice. I think I still owe you a feeling word definition, I'm not sure.

Off to the showers, gotta run to Springfield, IL today. I'll feel better in the T-Bird w/o that red light going off every 10-15 minutes, LOL

Tony

Brother Java,

I can not (for the life of me) remember where we left off so I'm going to just start anew. However, let me first address a few pressing issues.

#1--I did read your comments several posts back about how it was unreasonable to not expect your wife to see that she was being unreasonable (or something). Suffice it to say that I mostly considered your comments that day to be the result of exhaustion and sleep deprivation.

I can summarize this, though. Our goal here is not to "make" your wife understand YOU--but rather for you to practice understanding your wife. Thus, to get distracted from understanding HER is to be distracted from the goal. No, I do not want you to "hold back" or be dishonest, but the effort at this time is to learn how to be an empathetic listener--not to learn how to make people see things from your point of view.

We have a very limited, targeted goal here: to learn to become an empathetic listener. To me, being an empathetic listener means being an active LISTENER and actually listening to what the speaker/writer is saying rather than plotting your response; accurately reflecting the essence of speaker/writer's feelings and surrounding circumstances; and by your response, adding to the speaker/writer's self-understanding.

Does that make sense to you? Our goal is not to "make" your wife understand that she has also not seen your side of things, or that she has participated by not recognizing the ways that you said "I love you" in your language, or that she has some responsibility too (because frankly, we can not "make" anyone see anything they do not want to see and are not ready to see). That does not make these facts any less TRUE...it's just not where our attention is right now. Let's stay focused.

#2--I believe it has been confusing and harmful for me to try to write in other people's voices or as "practice" typical people pretending this is something a spouse might say. It detracts from the practice to have to figure out if this written paragraph is CJ's voice, example of W's voice, or just a generic voice, etc. Soooo... from this day forward I have decided to write in MY voice only. That way, whatever I write, I said. I think it will cut down on confusion.

#3--I also think it has been confusing to have you try practice responses when I have not made it clear what I am looking for. I am not very good at "defining perimeters" because invariably there is a rule that is bent or forgotten and then the point of the lesson is lost on noticing the broken rule. Soooo...I'm going to write in my own voice--follow it by an example of what might be an empathetic response (with play-by-play analysis) and then invite you to try.

Here are the new, "let's start over" assignments that I would like you to try to do on Tuesday, March 30th:

1) FUN--I would like you to buy a ROLL of bubblegum at the nearest 7-11/convenience store and eat it all at once and try to blow the world-record-setting bubble. JUST TRY IT!! Then watch one episode of SpongeBob and laugh like you mean it. Belly laugh until you're gasping for air and crying. Three Stooges also works.

2) WORD--"serene" What does that word mean to you? Have you ever felt serene? What does it feel like? Is serenity a goal of yours?

3) CHECK-IN--Please check-in with yourself upon waking up, lunchtime, dinnertime, and upon laying down at the end of the day. Take time to dig a little deeper than "frustrated" or "happy" and really speak to yourself and see how you are doing at that moment.

4) EMPATHETIC LISTENING--Here we go! A new paragraph, a new voice (JUST MINE!!) and a new example:

"I get so angry with my exH sometimes, because it was not a mutual marriage. It was clearly not mutual, and I didn't see it that it was so one-sided until it was over! I thought he would be there for me like I had been there for him so many times before and he wasn't. I thought he would choose me above all others and he didn't. I didn't turn from him with all his physical and mental illnesses--instead I determined to work WITH them and adjust myself to work it out--yet he ran away when I needed him to do for me. I was CHEATED! I was building a future, a business, and a life, and all that was taken from me when he chose his sex addiction over me. I was the faithful one. I was the one who worked and worked and worked, and I get so angry at times that I have to start over."

EXAMPLE RESPONSE: "Right now your divorce is still hurting you. Being married was such a big part of your identity that you feel like you were robbed of that part of you, right? I'm wondering if you aren't feeling anger because it's so scary to lose your marriage and have to redefine your identity."

Here's why that's an empathetic response: Because the listener listened to the writer and paid attention. The listener then summarized in their own words what they thought the writer was feeling and asked if that was right (if it was not right, then the writer has the chance to say "not quite" and explain it again). Finally, if offered the writer an insight into their own self-understanding (in other words, helped the writer to see something about themself).

NOW YOU TRY.....


CJ

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong> Brother Java,

<snip> no pun intended </snip>

1) FUN--I would like you to buy a ROLL of bubblegum at the nearest 7-11/convenience store and eat it all at once and try to blow the world-record-setting bubble. JUST TRY IT!! Then watch one episode of SpongeBob and laugh like you mean it. Belly laugh until you're gasping for air and crying. Three Stooges also works.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How about web based training, tee hee. I came home to take some web based training I had to finish by the end of the month.

Bubble Yum doesn't hold it's flavor very long. I think I'll snap some digital pix of my bubbles to demonstrate that I'm doing my homework. Not to mention YD may get a big kick out of them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong>


2) WORD--"serene" What does that word mean to you? Have you ever felt serene? What does it feel like? Is serenity a goal of yours?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Does this fall under the humor category. I keep getting this mental image of George Castanza's father (from Seinfeld) yelling Serenity Now! Serenity Now!

If you recall that word image I painted about being up early in the morning after a snowfall of say 6" or more, when there are no cars going, and all the animals are safely huddled up, that is serenity. Totally calm, nothing disturbing me. It is quiet in the world and in my mind.

I can look up and not see a cloud in the pre-dawn sky as I stand in the silvery moonlight just looking at the stars. The snowstorm has passed and the whole world is at peace.

That is serenity.

I think I'd like to be the guy who drives the snowplow 8^)
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong>
3) CHECK-IN--Please check-in with yourself upon waking up, lunchtime, dinnertime, and upon laying down at the end of the day. Take time to dig a little deeper than "frustrated" or "happy" and really speak to yourself and see how you are doing at that moment.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Since my moods don't really vary, I'd say the tone of the day is satisfied. Got a call from the mortgage broker, should have no problems refinancing the house in my name only. The only minor issue is explaining why WW didn't pay her credit card bill that has my name on it.

So a short note explaining this should be all that is necessary.

I'm going to go workout before my men's bible study tonight, so I should get plenty of "E" time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong>

4) EMPATHETIC LISTENING--Here we go! A new paragraph, a new voice (JUST MINE!!) and a new example:

"I get so angry with my exH sometimes, because it was not a mutual marriage. It was clearly not mutual, and I didn't see it that it was so one-sided until it was over! I thought he would be there for me like I had been there for him so many times before and he wasn't. I thought he would choose me above all others and he didn't. I didn't turn from him with all his physical and mental illnesses--instead I determined to work WITH them and adjust myself to work it out--yet he ran away when I needed him to do for me. I was CHEATED! I was building a future, a business, and a life, and all that was taken from me when he chose his sex addiction over me. I was the faithful one. I was the one who worked and worked and worked, and I get so angry at times that I have to start over."

EXAMPLE RESPONSE: "Right now your divorce is still hurting you. Being married was such a big part of your identity that you feel like you were robbed of that part of you, right? I'm wondering if you aren't feeling anger because it's so scary to lose your marriage and have to redefine your identity."

Here's why that's an empathetic response: Because the listener listened to the writer and paid attention. The listener then summarized in their own words what they thought the writer was feeling and asked if that was right (if it was not right, then the writer has the chance to say "not quite" and explain it again). Finally, if offered the writer an insight into their own self-understanding (in other words, helped the writer to see something about themself).

NOW YOU TRY.....

CJ </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow, that must have really hurt. I can imagine that not only did you feel betrayed by the affair, but you also felt cheated by the uneven participation in the marriage. You gave your all, your mind, body, and spirit were all given, and he chose someone else. I can feel that pain, to feel abandoned and rejected when all you wanted to do was accept him and help him.

It must really hurt to feel you did the right things and still experienced such a horrible outcome. You expected a partner, and you got so much less.

Tony

OMG, I'm in tears.

The student has undone the master.


CJ

P.S. Don't be upset or worried. My exH said something to me today that was a "to the core" thing, and well what you wrote was ... I don't know. It really got me and I can't think straight when I'm crying. I'll write in a bit when I'm not a whirlwind.

"CoffeeTalk--I'm vaklempt. Talk amongst yourselves. Here's the topic: Is Janet Jackson really Michael in drag?"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong> OMG, I'm in tears.

The student has undone the master.


CJ

P.S. Don't be upset or worried. My exH said something to me today that was a "to the core" thing, and well what you wrote was ... I don't know. It really got me and I can't think straight when I'm crying. I'll write in a bit when I'm not a whirlwind.

"CoffeeTalk--I'm vaklempt. Talk amongst yourselves. Here's the topic: Is Janet Jackson really Michael in drag?" </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">CJ,

So this is one of those, I have some deep feelings, but I don't know how to put them into words sort of deals, huh?

Well, feel free (no pun intended) to take your time, feel those feelings, and then when you feel comfortable, share what you are comfortable sharing.

BTW, Michael is Michael in drag!

Tony
Sipping on a Light Vienna Roast

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>So this is one of those, I have some deep feelings, but I don't know how to put them into words sort of deals, huh?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First, the Light Vienna Roast is such a low blow. Ahhhhh...the smooth flavor of a light vienna roast. It's so mmmmmm it's almost creamy in it's delivery. And light is so non-bitter, non-acidic, and unoffending--a bit like a french roast but not so rich. It's just a Perfect nightime sip or pleasant early-morning-start your day sip. (dreamy smile)

Okay...here's what happened--try to follow this stream of consciousness pathway! Let's see, about 2 weeks ago my exH was acting tired, grouchy, stressed, etc. so I asked him what was wrong and could I help. He generally whined about work for a while, then asked if I could help him with designing his web page. It's in MS Publisher so of course I could help with that, and I said, "Yes" About ten days later, I had a wonderful web page built that I was satisfied with, and I gave it to him. He took it home, looked at it for two days, and didn't speak to me so I could not tell what he thought of it. Well, lo and behold YESTERDAY he calls and here's what he said (and I will do my best to quote): "CJ, I totally underestimated you. I did not know what I had when I had you as my business partner."

CJ:(cough up the half-swallowed sandwich) HUH???

Ex: "I mean I had no idea how smart you were and how much you did for me...for us. I took you for granted."

(silence...crickets chirping)

CJ: "I don't know how to respond to that, so how about if I just say thank you for saying that?"

Ex: "okay, bye."


Now, at first glance you might think, "HEY, the dude is finally starting to see the light!" and get excited. Or you might think, "Boy, what BS wouldn't love hear their WS say that to them after the divorce is final?" Well...I waited for years to hear something like that, and when I did hear it, I was stunned to discover that I felt ANGRY. Yep...ANGRY.

WHY NOW??? I waited for him for Years and Years hoping, wishing, praying that he would think of me as valuable. Why couldn't he have seen this before he pulverized my heart?

A BUSINESS partner. Ugh, it's always work! Work is like a darn OW with him--he loves it and spends free time and play time on it. He invests himself in "work" and desires "work." And I'm a valuable "business partner." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I've known all along that I am a smart, capable, impressive business person--he just didn't believed in me! I wish I was valuable to him because I am precious--not because I can do taxes and he can't.

Sigh.

And finally, there's the sadness of knowing that he does this to me a couple of times each year (like 5-6 times): he'll tell me something kind of deep like this, and I get my hopes up a little bit, and within a few days he's right back to hating me and treating me abusively--and then he teases me for EVER thinking he'd want ME back! Don't be ridiculous!

Anyway, as you can tell, it threw me for a bit of a loop, emotionally. Then...along comes your reply:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Wow, that must have really hurt. I can imagine that not only did you feel betrayed by the affair, but you also felt cheated by the uneven participation in the marriage. You gave your all, your mind, body, and spirit were all given, and he chose someone else. I can feel that pain, to feel abandoned and rejected when all you wanted to do was accept him and help him.

It must really hurt to feel you did the right things and still experienced such a horrible outcome. You expected a partner, and you got so much less.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OY VEY! It DID hurt. It sometimes still hurts! Somehow I thought we were living a mutual life together, and it turns out it was all his and I was like a two-dimensional prop filling the space of "Wife#2". I'm sort of mad at myself that there are parts of me that still love him. I'm sort of mad at myself that I would ever get my hopes up. I'm sort of mad at myself that I did give my ALL and my "ALL" (body, mind, spirit, youth, children, support, home, business) was not equal to a cybersex partner who knew him a few weeks. I feel so darn LITTLE, and I don't mean short. It's more like: "CJ's all = 1/2 inch, cyber yummy = give up anything for." That's pretty (oh what's the word?) deflating. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

So....that's the past. That's the little game he plays. Already tonight he's acting angry and mean, so at least this time it didn't last long. And meanwhile, I am trying to dry my tears and get on with the present.

I bet this is something you rarely if ever experience, so let me try to describe it for you. Obviously I felt a little off-kilter from what he said in the afternoon--I mean, it just surprised me enough to feel a little like an old scab was picked off. Then, here was your response, and it was like you SAID OUT LOUD what the scab had been covering. It's like being hit with a tidal wave and being swept away in it. This huge, enormous wall of hurt, anger, rejection and tears bears down and knocks me over, and I've learned to just ride out the wave. But it really feels a lot like being hit by a tidal wave or a tornado.

I think that's about it for tonight. I'm going to think about the serenity snow scene, and hopefully, sleep peacefully. More assignments tomorrow....


CJ

CJ,

I don't know what to say. Maybe I am getting this. The one thing I am getting is that I'm taking too much responsibility for what's going on.

I don't think I'm being dishonest when I say, I really wanted to do many of these things, but didn't have the cooperation from WW.

Like you, I didn't feel like we were a good team. I was very rigid, had to do things the way I wanted to do them, and didn't always consider the feelings of others.

She had her issues too, but it's not proper for me to get into that.

So what I'm saying is I hear you sister. And I can see in you alot of what my W might be feeling. Like why does he get it now. Does he really get it, or is this an attempt at manipulation.

The difference is that I'm trying to get it, and perhaps for him it's only dawning on him what he had.

However, regardless, I feel your pain.

Hey, I only had one outburst today, when my pager went off while at lunch. It sounded the "Alarm" sound, when all it really was was a voice mail.

I'll write more now, no wait, later.

Tony

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:
<strong> I don't know what to say. Maybe I am getting this. The one thing I am getting is that I'm taking too much responsibility for what's going on.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, you know what?? You truly are fun to play with (pleasant smile). This is VERY typical, and INFP or ESTJ, when your marriage falls apart you want to somehow find a way to explain it and control it. I see this in rape victims all the time: "It was late...I walked by myself in the dark...I was wearing slutty clothes." Well GEE just because you walk in the dark is no reason to believe you'll get raped, but it gives the traumatized person something to hold onto and say, "X happened and it caused Y. To be safe again, all I have to do is not X."

In your instance (and trust me, I did this too), I think that sentence went something like this: "I was a judgemental, controlling, thinker of a husband, and I hurt her too much because of it. If I learn how to not be judgemental, controlling and thinker, she will love me again." Maybe it wasn't conscious, but that was something like the basic, underlying deal.

In real life (IRL) you have no control over what happened. I mean, yeah, you could have understood about emotional needs and maybe learned to not correct her in public <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> but in the end, doing those things does not necessarily lead to divorce just as wearing slutty clothes does not necessarily lead to rape. In summary, your W made the DECISION to divorce no matter what you did or did not do, it was her choice. Yes, it's good for you to learn to be a less judgemental and less critical, but it's also good for her to learn some things too (won't go there--that's not our focus). There are several options other than divorce that could have been selected and weren't. IRL you carry some responsibility and owe it to yourself to work on the issues you have that contributed--but IRL she contributed too and it is HER job and HER duty to herself to work on her own issues. I don't know if I'd call it taking too much responsibility, but I would say that you were thinking you had more ability to control the outcome. Hey, if you had THAT kind of power, you would make yourself rich too!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I don't think I'm being dishonest when I say, I really wanted to do many of these things, but didn't have the cooperation from WW. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sorry but you really lost me here, and I'm a pretty good puzzler. I can't figure out what you mean, no matter what angle I look at it from. You say you wanted to "do many of these things"...what things? You wanted to figure out how to be less judgemental, or you wanted to do some of the things I mentioned in my post?? What things?? And if you were going to work on you, why did your wife need to cooperate?? I'm sorry. I am not following you. Would you mind clarifying??

As near as I can tell, what I really wished and prayed for was a marriage in which I had the privilege of supporting and encouraging him to be a better man, and where he had the chance to support and encourage me to be all the CJ I could be. I didn't expect him to be perfect or take all the blame, but I also didn't want to be under the microscope of having to be perfect myself or else I'd get all the blame for "a failure."

So somehow, I think you are talking about this concept of mutuality...that you wanted to be mutual with your W, but she wanted to look at all your faults rather than look at herself and work on her own self. But...that's as far as I got.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Like you, I didn't feel like we were a good team. I was very rigid, had to do things the way I wanted to do them, and didn't always consider the feelings of others.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, Tony, that is a common misconception. I thought we could have been a very good team, if he had only had the desire to adapt himself to me as much as I adapted myself to him. Let me give you an example. He is a early morning person. LOVES it! Is very high energy first thing in the morning. I am not. I am a night owl and feel energized and excited at night. Now, at first I was bugged because he was never "in the mood" at night after a good day together--and when I finally got to bed and got a few hours sleep (precious few!), he would wake me up in the morning ready to go! OY! But then I realized that his way was no more right or wrong than my way--just different. And that as his wife, I wanted to make the effort to be a little more responsive in the mornings because that's when he was at his energy peak. Cool--I tried to adapt a bit, and he was very happy, but it never even occurred to him to make the effort to be a little more responsive when *I* was at my energy peak. Like "return the favor" dude! Anyway, in my heart of heart, I think we could have made a great team if there had been a TEAM. There wasn't a team. There was a Captain and...a Star Trek extra I guess.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>So what I'm saying is I hear you sister. And I can see in you alot of what my W might be feeling. Like why does he get it now. Does he really get it, or is this an attempt at manipulation.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">DING-DING-DING. Rod Roddy, tell him what he's won! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

[quote]<strong>The difference is that I'm trying to get it, and perhaps for him it's only dawning on him what he had.</strong>[/quote

And just so you know, I truly can see the difference. To speak fairly frankly, I think my ex is in a bad place right now--and when he gets like that, the only person he knows he can depend on to not be completely alienated is me. And while my pinkie toe loves him and wishes him the best and holds no ill-will and all, I don't think he has any real desire to change or admit his own issues. Easier to ignore them until they go away.

OTOH, I see you struggling and trying and very often succeeding in trying new ways and learning new things...practicing new skills and making mistakes and learning from them. I see that there is some desire in you to look into the mirror and be honest with yourself even if it's scary and ugly. I keep praying your W will somehow see too.

* * * * *

Shall we do assignments??

1) FUN--share your enormous, flavorless BubbleYum pics with the forum change. Roll that beautiful bubblegum footage.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Okay, IRL you are a Thinker, so I bet you love mind games. Why don't you buy yourself a word puzzle book or a Trivia game you've been wanting and take the time to play?? Put work down and have fun taking some time to play.

2) VOCABULARY--in the form of a question today: What is the difference between "Satisfied" and "Joyful" IYHO??

BTW, I liked your serenity picture. Naturally, being a night owl, my serene scene is at night during a full moon, standing on my balcony looking at the moon casting its silvery shimmer on the new blanket of snow below. The world is silver and silent, and the cool light of the moon is just filled with God's presence.

But I want to ask you this also, as it relates to serenity. Do you ever feel serenity just on a regular basis in normal life? I do. At times, after working all day and after the dinner dishes are done and put away, I look at my home (MY home) and see my kids doing their homework and see my dog looking at me like he's THRILLED to see me and see my cat ignoring me, and I just feel like I am right smack dab in the center of who I am supposed to be. And that is serenity.

3) CHECK-IN--well it seems that rather than checking in at specific times a day, you tend to go with "the tone of the day", so let's go with that. What was the tone of your day AS IT RELATES TO YOUR FEELINGS?? Please use your most accurate and descriptive emotional vocabulary, okay??

4) EMPATHETIC RESPONSE--Oy. Let's practice yet again. I've got my kleenex and I'm ready. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Remember, this is in MY voice.

"You know there are some days when I just get tired of giving. Not that I want to take, but rather, I just have given all I have to give. I feel like a pitcher of cool water, and I pour a little to this thirsty person...that thirsty person...this guy over here...that gal over there, but very few people pour back into me, and eventually I get empty. I'm not sure how, but if I just stop pouring for a while, my pitcher refills itself which is cool and one of the things I really like about me. But sometimes it would be nice to not have the burden of responsibility. I wonder what it would be like to just blow off all responsibility, jump in my car, drive to California, and be selfish and think only of myself? I wonder if I would enjoy that? Well...I'm thinking I need a CJDay."

And empathetic response might be: "It sounds like you are feeling all gived-out and tired. Is that right? You're worth taking care of! Do you have any idea why you give of yourself until you're all used up? It also sounds like you're feeling a lot of responsibility right now. Why is that?" This is an empathetic response because the feelings of the writer are paraphrased to make sure that's what the writer was trying to say, and then some level of self-awareness is discussed with the writer.

Now you try (I've got my kleenex...go for it!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Sleepy, Grumpy, and Dopey,


CJ

OMG! A double post! Can you believe it??

"Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath; For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God." --James 1:19-20

I just like these verses....thought I would share them since I double posted. What I read in these verses is that God wants me to be teachable. He wants me to be eager to listen to people and take the time to hear their stories, hurts and sorrows. And God wants me to speak after deliberation and pondering, not just a quick, thoughtless reply. He wants me to restrain my tongue and control it. And finally, God wants me to control my anger and use self-control. It's simple, when I am angry with a sinful anger, it does not accomplish God's work...in fact, if anything it destroys God's work and that is the exact OPPOSITE of what I want to do. THUS, I have a duty to actively practice being teachable, to be soft-hearted, to take the time to listen, to hear their words, to choose to consider my response and choose words wisely, to control my anger, and to do God's work.

I think I'm beginning to see why I feel such a big sense of responsibility.


CJ

<small>[ April 02, 2004, 02:08 AM: Message edited by: FaithfulWife ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:
<strong> I don't know what to say. Maybe I am getting this. The one thing I am getting is that I'm taking too much responsibility for what's going on.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, you know what?? You truly are fun to play with (pleasant smile). This is VERY typical, and INFP or ESTJ, when your marriage falls apart you want to somehow find a way to explain it and control it. I see this in rape victims all the time: "It was late...I walked by myself in the dark...I was wearing slutty clothes." Well GEE just because you walk in the dark is no reason to believe you'll get raped, but it gives the traumatized person something to hold onto and say, "X happened and it caused Y. To be safe again, all I have to do is not X."

In your instance (and trust me, I did this too), I think that sentence went something like this: "I was a judgemental, controlling, thinker of a husband, and I hurt her too much because of it. If I learn how to not be judgemental, controlling and thinker, she will love me again." Maybe it wasn't conscious, but that was something like the basic, underlying deal.

In real life (IRL) you have no control over what happened. I mean, yeah, you could have understood about emotional needs and maybe learned to not correct her in public <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> but in the end, doing those things does not necessarily lead to divorce just as wearing slutty clothes does not necessarily lead to rape. In summary, your W made the DECISION to divorce no matter what you did or did not do, it was her choice. Yes, it's good for you to learn to be a less judgemental and less critical, but it's also good for her to learn some things too (won't go there--that's not our focus). There are several options other than divorce that could have been selected and weren't. IRL you carry some responsibility and owe it to yourself to work on the issues you have that contributed--but IRL she contributed too and it is HER job and HER duty to herself to work on her own issues. I don't know if I'd call it taking too much responsibility, but I would say that you were thinking you had more ability to control the outcome. Hey, if you had THAT kind of power, you would make yourself rich too!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I don't think I'm being dishonest when I say, I really wanted to do many of these things, but didn't have the cooperation from WW. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sorry but you really lost me here, and I'm a pretty good puzzler. I can't figure out what you mean, no matter what angle I look at it from. You say you wanted to "do many of these things"...what things? You wanted to figure out how to be less judgemental, or you wanted to do some of the things I mentioned in my post?? What things?? And if you were going to work on you, why did your wife need to cooperate?? I'm sorry. I am not following you. Would you mind clarifying??

As near as I can tell, what I really wished and prayed for was a marriage in which I had the privilege of supporting and encouraging him to be a better man, and where he had the chance to support and encourage me to be all the CJ I could be. I didn't expect him to be perfect or take all the blame, but I also didn't want to be under the microscope of having to be perfect myself or else I'd get all the blame for "a failure."

So somehow, I think you are talking about this concept of mutuality...that you wanted to be mutual with your W, but she wanted to look at all your faults rather than look at herself and work on her own self. But...that's as far as I got.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Like you, I didn't feel like we were a good team. I was very rigid, had to do things the way I wanted to do them, and didn't always consider the feelings of others.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, Tony, that is a common misconception. I thought we could have been a very good team, if he had only had the desire to adapt himself to me as much as I adapted myself to him. Let me give you an example. He is a early morning person. LOVES it! Is very high energy first thing in the morning. I am not. I am a night owl and feel energized and excited at night. Now, at first I was bugged because he was never "in the mood" at night after a good day together--and when I finally got to bed and got a few hours sleep (precious few!), he would wake me up in the morning ready to go! OY! But then I realized that his way was no more right or wrong than my way--just different. And that as his wife, I wanted to make the effort to be a little more responsive in the mornings because that's when he was at his energy peak. Cool--I tried to adapt a bit, and he was very happy, but it never even occurred to him to make the effort to be a little more responsive when *I* was at my energy peak. Like "return the favor" dude! Anyway, in my heart of heart, I think we could have made a great team if there had been a TEAM. There wasn't a team. There was a Captain and...a Star Trek extra I guess.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>So what I'm saying is I hear you sister. And I can see in you alot of what my W might be feeling. Like why does he get it now. Does he really get it, or is this an attempt at manipulation.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">DING-DING-DING. Rod Roddy, tell him what he's won! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>The difference is that I'm trying to get it, and perhaps for him it's only dawning on him what he had.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And just so you know, I truly can see the difference. To speak fairly frankly, I think my ex is in a bad place right now--and when he gets like that, the only person he knows he can depend on to not be completely alienated is me. And while my pinkie toe loves him and wishes him the best and holds no ill-will and all, I don't think he has any real desire to change or admit his own issues. Easier to ignore them until they go away.

OTOH, I see you struggling and trying and very often succeeding in trying new ways and learning new things...practicing new skills and making mistakes and learning from them. I see that there is some desire in you to look into the mirror and be honest with yourself even if it's scary and ugly. I keep praying your W will somehow see too.

* * * * *

Shall we do assignments??

1) FUN--share your enormous, flavorless BubbleYum pics with the forum change. Roll that beautiful bubblegum footage.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Okay, IRL you are a Thinker, so I bet you love mind games. Why don't you buy yourself a word puzzle book or a Trivia game you've been wanting and take the time to play?? Put work down and have fun taking some time to play.

2) VOCABULARY--in the form of a question today: What is the difference between "Satisfied" and "Joyful" IYHO??

BTW, I liked your serenity picture. Naturally, being a night owl, my serene scene is at night during a full moon, standing on my balcony looking at the moon casting its silvery shimmer on the new blanket of snow below. The world is silver and silent, and the cool light of the moon is just filled with God's presence.

But I want to ask you this also, as it relates to serenity. Do you ever feel serenity just on a regular basis in normal life? I do. At times, after working all day and after the dinner dishes are done and put away, I look at my home (MY home) and see my kids doing their homework and see my dog looking at me like he's THRILLED to see me and see my cat ignoring me, and I just feel like I am right smack dab in the center of who I am supposed to be. And that is serenity.

3) CHECK-IN--well it seems that rather than checking in at specific times a day, you tend to go with "the tone of the day", so let's go with that. What was the tone of your day AS IT RELATES TO YOUR FEELINGS?? Please use your most accurate and descriptive emotional vocabulary, okay??

4) EMPATHETIC RESPONSE--Oy. Let's practice yet again. I've got my kleenex and I'm ready. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Remember, this is in MY voice.

"You know there are some days when I just get tired of giving. Not that I want to take, but rather, I just have given all I have to give. I feel like a pitcher of cool water, and I pour a little to this thirsty person...that thirsty person...this guy over here...that gal over there, but very few people pour back into me, and eventually I get empty. I'm not sure how, but if I just stop pouring for a while, my pitcher refills itself which is cool and one of the things I really like about me. But sometimes it would be nice to not have the burden of responsibility. I wonder what it would be like to just blow off all responsibility, jump in my car, drive to California, and be selfish and think only of myself? I wonder if I would enjoy that? Well...I'm thinking I need a CJDay."

And empathetic response might be: "It sounds like you are feeling all gived-out and tired. Is that right? You're worth taking care of! Do you have any idea why you give of yourself until you're all used up? It also sounds like you're feeling a lot of responsibility right now. Why is that?" This is an empathetic response because the feelings of the writer are paraphrased to make sure that's what the writer was trying to say, and then some level of self-awareness is discussed with the writer.

Now you try (I've got my kleenex...go for it!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Sleepy, Grumpy, and Dopey,


CJ </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Okay...I am not doing this. I'm tired, but I'm not THAT tired! I think evil aliens have invaded the forum and stolen my posts.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">CJ shared:<strong>
"You know there are some days when I just get tired of giving. Not that I want to take, but rather, I just have given all I have to give. I feel like a pitcher of cool water, and I pour a little to this thirsty person...that thirsty person...this guy over here...that gal over there, but very few people pour back into me, and eventually I get empty. I'm not sure how, but if I just stop pouring for a while, my pitcher refills itself which is cool and one of the things I really like about me. But sometimes it would be nice to not have the burden of responsibility. I wonder what it would be like to just blow off all responsibility, jump in my car, drive to California, and be selfish and think only of myself? I wonder if I would enjoy that? Well...I'm thinking I need a CJDay."

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hear you, so take a CJDay and fill your own pitcher. Aren't your kiddos older, can they take care of themselves? So maybe you can take a CJ day or weekend and fill your own pitcher.

It's great that you recognize this in yourself.

I don't think it's selfish at all to take time for yourself. In fact, I'm relieved that you want to think of yourself, that seems healthy.

The only way you will know if you would enjoy it is to just do it.

Tony

I get such a tickle out of you.

Of course I would enjoy it--I know for a fact I would enjoy it! And get this, my daughter is going to a Nuggets game tonight and my son is going to a school dance tomorrow night, so this weekend is definitely set up to be CJ weekend.

heehee <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I'm looking forward to it...although I will say that with kids going in opposite directions, it feels unusual to have so much free time. What should I do with it all?? The possibilities seem endless!


Now, I have a question for you--more like a request really. You have done an excellent job being a student and getting the hang of empathetic responding. I personally consider empathetic responding to be a natural skill of an INFP--and apparently a learned skill for an ESTJ. I would like to ask two things:

1) Would you please try practicing an empathetic response to someone else here on our board? Come back and tell me who you responded to, and we'll talk about it, okay??

2) Would you please teach me any natural traits that a Thinker has that you think would be good for me to know--to be a better person or to be a better partner for someone? Thanks for considering that!

I've got to run. I have to make plans for CJ Weekend. Maybe I'll go to the Avs game on Sunday afternoon. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />


CJ

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:

2) Would you please teach me any natural traits that a Thinker has that you think would be good for me to know--to be a better person or to be a better partner for someone? Thanks for considering that!

CJ [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I dunno, I'll try. I think one thing we thinkers do is look at many aspects of a situation.

Personally, I often do math in my head. So if I'm driving along, I might say to myself, Buff, you are going 78 miles an hour, how long will it take you to go the next 100 miles.

So then I say, well, it will take me 60 minutes to go 78 miles, and 66 to go 85.8 and 72 to go 93.6 so about 77 minutes to go 100 miles. (The actual answer is 76.92 minutes.)

You know, I just get a weird pleasure out of being able to do that.

But I'm always thinking about something. Planning to go to Germany to buy a new BMW someday. Thinking about something I need to do for a customer.

Of course, I'm not at my best right now, cold medicine and this is not my optimal time of day, so I'll need to think of some exercises.

But start with doing math in your head.

Tony