</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong> Jave/Tony,

I don't know what part of the U.S. you live in (or even if you live in the U.S. to be honest <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ) but I am doing the mom taxi thing this afternoon. Two teenagers--ya know?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> After taxiing them to the various malls and friends' houses, then I have to make dinner and load dishes and do at least one load of laundry. Thus, when my household duties are complete, I suspect I'll be back about 9pm Mtn. Time (which is 8pm Pacific, 10pm Central, and 11pm Eastern time for those of you who can't translate--haha).

If this is too late for you, I suggest you start a new thread about "Winning Your Wife Back" and give me ONE new thing you learned by re-reading the first few chapters, and one way that you plan to immediately integrate that new learning into your daily life. In my spare moments watching the dryer tumble, I will also re-read the chapters and discuss with you from the point of view of a lady, and what I LONGED from my exH to understand. Okay?? Okay, see ya then!


CJ </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">CJ,

I'm in the midwest. I've done two loads of laundry, a third is about to go in. I've changed the drive belt on my "new" car (a 1995 T-Bird), have now read three chapters in that book, as well as Day 15 of The Purpose Driven life and looked up the scripture references.

Alas, no kids here at the home as DW took them with her.

I still have bills to pay. (Is it disrespect of me to comment that DW didn't bother to take those with her?) As well as I should probably do my monthly report and close some of my calls from earlier this week.

So I empathise with the busy.

What did I learn?

I've comitted almost every penalty in the forward of the book since she has left.

How do I integrate that? Well, if I do nothing, at least I stop the penalties.

However, I don't see that as winning as much as stopping the losing.

I want to win.

Tony
Wondering how to do more than "not lose"

PS, I did read the part about starting a new thread. I can copy this to that new thread.

<small>[ March 07, 2004, 09:47 PM: Message edited by: javaSansContour ]</small>

CJ,

I know you are worried about me losing my love for my wife, and not honoring her, cherishing her, and loving her.

What if that is what I'm supposed to do? My wife has left. She has had at least an emotional affair with another man if not a physical affair. She has withheld information from me that would help me treat her the way she wanted to be treated, she seemed to dislike sex, even on our honeymoon. Or at the very least, she didn't act like she enjoyed it with me.

Now I want my wife back, but I want a marriage that is full of love and passion. I don't want to feel like I'm only a meal ticket that gets some sex service out of a sense of duty maybe once every 4-6 weeks.

I guess my heart is broken and hardened. I feel like my W lied to me. Before we married we talked about sex and about how important we were to each other. We agreed that we should put the other before any other person, children included. I shared with her that I desired to make love with her several times a day, and she said that is what she wanted too.

So that didn't even happen during the honeymoon. That promise was broken. I'm sure I disappointed too. I certainly wasn't romantic. Of course that was no change from dating. You could say the sex was too since we didn't have sex with one another before we married. (However, neither of us were virgins.)

I want her back, but I want a wife who is a willing passionate partner.

I'm praying for this, but what if the woman I want isn't found in my wife? I believe that I have biblical grounds to divorce without guilt or without dishonoring God.

I'm just so confused. I know I also have a daughter that deserves a mom and dad that love each other.

Tony

CJ,

I don't know if I totally destroyed any romantic love, or if there just wasn't any left, but I just got off the phone with W and she keeps telling me what I was afraid of.

She feels her life without me is so much better than her life with me. She feels stressed out talking to me, etc, so she cannot picture us together.

This is hard to overcome, because I did my level best not to LB and think I did a really good job. I asked her permission to talk, and if she had time. I asked her to help me understand her feelings and she said she was always stressed around me.

So, I guess I have to lighten up, huh?

I asked her to paint for me a picture of a happy marriage with me and she says she cannot see that. She doesn't understand how I could still love her. So how do I do more than just tell her that I love her, that I'm devistated by the thought that she will no longer be my wife.

How do I show her that she can relax around me? That her fears are no longer founded?

What I was afraid would happen has happened, she is happier without me than with me, and I apparently have no chance to show her that there is a way for her to be happy with me.

Well, at least I know. I know that I'm not the one who has given up. I will still try to show her a less uptight Tony, and that will make me a better person.

God will have to work in both of our hearts to change the tension between us.

Tony

<small>[ February 22, 2004, 11:41 PM: Message edited by: javaSansContour ]</small>

Java and anyone else who wants to discuss and contribute:

First, I wanted to say that I can hear the sorrow and defeat in your posts, and I truly suggest that you do your best to rest, rest, rest and take care of yourself. I have no reason to think this, but I suspect you are exhausting yourself trying to read and figure this out and find the magic words or magic actions that will "fix" this. I know your heart is broken, your energy is low, and your tears are dry...so do take some time and be extra caring and gentle with yourself, okay? Every day I'm going to ask you what you did to care for yourself. Like you, I tend to read self-help books by the dozens, so for today I bought myself a purely FUN book to read "The King of Torts" by John Grisham. I do this to give myself a break from trying to analyze myself and fix myself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

* * * * *

Okay, now regarding this thread I have a few openning thoughts that I need to share:

This thread is not a "pick on Java" thread, although I see that is kind of what you expect. This is hopefully a learning experience for us all, including me. I am not the nun and I don't have a ruler! heehee <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Next, I won't be "schooling" you, Tony. I'll be openning up about myself and my thoughts and hoping that your heart will be softened and touched by what happened to me.

Now...let's begin with Chapter One. I will share with you my thoughts--I encourage others to comment and share their thoughts--and Java, I want you to read with an open heart and share what you think you heard. Okay? Let's begin!


CJ

CJ,

First, getting schooled isn't a bad thing. I used to make my $$$ teaching. However, that stuff was easy, it was computers. They do exactly what you tell them to do.

If by the first chapter you mean "Pregame Warm-Up..."

What I learned is the games not over till it's over.

HOWEVER, there are no guarantees, and a bit of luck (not that I believe in luck, but I don't know a better word to use) is often needed.

God can create a victory. However, I also know that God will not force me or my wife to do anything, so saving the marriage is NOT certain.

I believe steps one and two are most critical. Avoiding penalties and opening her closed spirit. I have confidence in avoiding the penalties because I can see how they have not worked.

I have less confidence in opening her closed spirit. She is so set that the only path to her continued happiness is a divorce. This part is where I need the miracle.

This miracle is two fold, number one, I must be shown the way to either open that spirit or how to wait for it to be opened. Secondly, her closed spirit must be opened, by my acting as God would have me act, or by the work of the Holy Spirit.

That's what I've learned.

Tony

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:
<strong>I don't know if I totally destroyed any romantic love, or if there just wasn't any left, but I just got off the phone with W and she keeps telling me what I was afraid of.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay...so you have faced your greatest fear and looked it square in the eyes, and you didn't die. Tony, you are much stronger than you think you are. You have had your greatest fear become a reality in your life, and you are not running away. You are facing it and you are brave.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>She feels her life without me is so much better than her life with me. She feels stressed out talking to me, etc, so she cannot picture us together.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't mean this meanly, but of course she feels that way. Let's say she has her own little apartment, okay? She does not need to be afraid in her little apartment. She can paint it red if she wants to and no one yells. She can do whatever she feels like (good or evil) and no one holds her accountable. Most of the stress is gone. She is free to not walk on eggshells and not think of your feelings and not consider you and not try to avoid a fight at every turn. Seriously, Tony, it may be quiet and lonely, but to have the relief of not worrying about what's going to set you off has got to be HUGE.

Thus...we need the book. What you're doing is not working. It is increasing her hurt, not relieving it. In fact, at this time she can not even imagine how you could possibly relieve her pain when you have been the one to cause most of it. It's not fathomable. So, she told you the truth and be thankful for that...the truth. You need to show her that not only will you stop being the one to cause her pain, but you will make amends to her for the past pain you caused AND you will show her how her life will NOT be better without you in it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>This is hard to overcome, because I did my level best not to LB and think I did a really good job. I asked her permission to talk, and if she had time. I asked her to help me understand her feelings and she said she was always stressed around me.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well...this is a little like saying, "Now that I have blown up the bank and utterly destroyed it, I did my best not to kick the teller in the shins." See, for her, there is no Love Bank anymore. There were withdrawals, withdrawals, withdrawals...and then the cement was chipped away...and then there was the last stone pulled out and the bank fell apart into rubble. So now that the bank is gone, there's nothing else TO withdraw. If you LB now, you are grinding up rubble and proving her point. You need to build a whole new bank.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I asked her to paint for me a picture of a happy marriage with me and she says she cannot see that. She doesn't understand how I could still love her. So how do I do more than just tell her that I love her, that I'm devistated by the thought that she will no longer be my wife.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, Tony, her bank is rubble so she can not imagine what a new bank would look like. Plus she'd be nuts to rebuild a bank with the person who destroyed this one. Let the rubble lie and go build a bank on a new site...right? Can you see how she is seeing this a little? A tiny little pin-hole of light creeping in? She can not fathom how you could possibly ease her pain, and at this point, she identifies YOU with HURT. YOU=HURT. So that is the part we need to change...that association. You need to equal love, gentleness, haven and warmth.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>How do I show her that she can relax around me? That her fears are no longer founded?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Her fears ARE founded! That's just the problem. You don't tell a scared child, "Shut up, you don't need to be afraid." You take a scared child and turn on the light and show them they are safe and do actions that show them safety, and then you cuddle with them and comfort them. This is what you do with your wife. Her fears are founded. In her mind, she has reason to be afraid of you, and you just keep telling her "Stop it. You shouldn't be afraid." Take her a show her she is safe--show her by your ACTIONS!! Cuddle with her and comfort her, and if she will not allow you to touch her or comfort her, respect that. Demonstrate that she is safe. Think of her like a scared cat hiding under the bed. If you reach under and grab a scared cat, they will scratch you and fight furiously to get away from you; but if you leave it alone and let it have some time and space, but don't leave it, the cat will eventually come out. Then you can feed it, and it will feel a little bit happy with you (you=good). Then you can pet it, and it will purr (you=happy).

See??


CJ

Ok,

We probably have a month as she is in a hurry to divorce...

What if she is right and I'm not in love with her, but simply scared to not be married?

What about all the things that I'm unhappy about? I know I can't even bring them up right now, and I haven't. However, what if she is unwilling to address any of them?

I know, worry about that when the time comes...

Tony

<small>[ February 23, 2004, 12:02 AM: Message edited by: javaSansContour ]</small>

Oh, and please flesh out what I have to do to show her she is safe around me. It sounds so easy, but it must not come naturally to me, otherwise, she would have felt safe around me the past 7.5 years.

Tony

CHAPTER ONE: PRE-GAME WARMUP

This is an important chapter and deserves time and thought and contemplation. Please do notjust breeze over it to "get to the good stuff." Now, I will say that it seems to me throughout this book that the author takes the football analogy a little too far, but let's see if we can't work with it anyway, shall we? I speak to you in english about my thoughts...not in football. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Okay, one of the first important points in this chapter is that what you are doing is not working. In my own marriage, I tried to anticipate my ex's needs, avoid his wrath, understand his issues, provide for sex within the bounds of our marriage, and be a good housekeeper and mother. Inadvertantly, I became in enabler of unhealthy behavior and codependent. He hurt me and I made a reason/excuse. He hurt me, and I did not allow him to experience the consequences of his actions. He hurt me, and I cried but did nothing about it. I tried to avoid him hurting me by being "perfect" but of course something was always imperfect. I was a willing volunteer to living in an abusive relationship, because it was familiar and I had invested a lot already (in years and financially). What I was doing was NOT working.

My exH did a small hurt, and I didi not say anything. I let resentment build. Another small hurt, and more resentment built. Yet another, and I would explode in anger at level 9, when that particular small hurt was a level 2 hurt. I was abused as a child, and I learned how to deal with hurt by disassociating and stuffing it. So, in my marriage, I "went somewhere else" mentally while he was screaming at me, and I stuffed it. What I was doing was NOT working.

I was so busy with the children and their schools and friends and extra activities, that I was too busy to take care of my appearance and attractiveness. I thought I had a life partner, threw thick and thin, and I let myself get thick thinking he loved me for the beauty that was inner. In fact, he was a human man, and he may have loved some of my innerness, but he could also see--and he lost interest. I was so busy with my own anger and issues, that I found fault with him and nagged and nagged him to change. I was critical and judgemental, because he was screaming and mean. It was tit for tat. I tried but I HURT, so I was mean too. And SHE wasn't. She admired him. She found him interesting and smart and funny. She laughed with him. She kept herself attractive. What I was doing was NOT working.

So, do not just blow past this, Tony. Take your emotional shield off and tell us...what you are doing that is NOT working. Don't reveal more than you are willing to share--I don't mean that. I just mean, if you can't open up and share it, at least open up to yourself and dig deep...what are you doing that is NOT working? Your biggest fear is not that her life is better without you. Your biggest fear is that when you look at yourself, she is right.

**********

Another important concept in this chapter is that the more-of-the-same approach maintains the problem and more likely intensifies it. You've heard of the 180 concept right? When you look at yourself and honestly consider what you are doing that is not working, the next step is to do 180 degrees exactly the opposite. If you are crying and begging her to come back, take a deep breath and tell HER that you are happy to have this chance to be apart from her so that you can have some personal time to yourself. You don't need to be cruel about it--be honest but be 180 degrees different. If you have been panicking and calling all the time, learn meditation to calm yourself and don't call her for two days. She'll wonder what you're up to. Continuing to do the same thing will magnify the problem and make it worse, so do something new and different.

**********

Another important thought in this chapter is to relax and develop a plan. When my exH left me, I became a CJ-puddle and did not stop to thing about what I was doing. I begged, cried, demanded, acted hurt, even threatened...but I did not stop to slow down and think (at least not at first). Then, I did. I stopped the emotional whirlwind and stopped my whirling mind and took an emotional deep breath. I realized that this was not going to be over in a day or an hour, so I had some time. I realized that going off all unprepared and willy nilly was not profitable nor was it going to help me attain my goal (which at the time I thought was saving my marriage--and later I realized was saving me).

Tony, relax. You have time--possibly several months and maybe several years. There is not going to be a "magic fix" to this and there is not one magic action that makes her love you again. This is for the long haul and it's going to take a PLAN. Rest, restore yourself, and calmly come up with your plan.

**********

(con't)


CJ

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong> CHAPTER ONE: PRE-GAME WARMUP

This is an important chapter and deserves time and thought and contemplation. Please do notjust breeze over it to "get to the good stuff." Now, I will say that it seems to me throughout this book that the author takes the football analogy a little too far, but let's see if we can't work with it anyway, shall we? I speak to you in english about my thoughts...not in football. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Okay, one of the first important points in this chapter is that what you are doing is not working. In my own marriage, I tried to anticipate my ex's needs, avoid his wrath, understand his issues, provide for sex within the bounds of our marriage, and be a good housekeeper and mother. Inadvertantly, I became in enabler of unhealthy behavior and codependent. He hurt me and I made a reason/excuse. He hurt me, and I did not allow him to experience the consequences of his actions. He hurt me, and I cried but did nothing about it. I tried to avoid him hurting me by being "perfect" but of course something was always imperfect. I was a willing volunteer to living in an abusive relationship, because it was familiar and I had invested a lot already (in years and financially). What I was doing was NOT working.

My exH did a small hurt, and I didi not say anything. I let resentment build. Another small hurt, and more resentment built. Yet another, and I would explode in anger at level 9, when that particular small hurt was a level 2 hurt. I was abused as a child, and I learned how to deal with hurt by disassociating and stuffing it. So, in my marriage, I "went somewhere else" mentally while he was screaming at me, and I stuffed it. What I was doing was NOT working.

I was so busy with the children and their schools and friends and extra activities, that I was too busy to take care of my appearance and attractiveness. I thought I had a life partner, threw thick and thin, and I let myself get thick thinking he loved me for the beauty that was inner. In fact, he was a human man, and he may have loved some of my innerness, but he could also see--and he lost interest. I was so busy with my own anger and issues, that I found fault with him and nagged and nagged him to change. I was critical and judgemental, because he was screaming and mean. It was tit for tat. I tried but I HURT, so I was mean too. And SHE wasn't. She admired him. She found him interesting and smart and funny. She laughed with him. She kept herself attractive. What I was doing was NOT working.

So, do not just blow past this, Tony. Take your emotional shield off and tell us...what you are doing that is NOT working. Don't reveal more than you are willing to share--I don't mean that. I just mean, if you can't open up and share it, at least open up to yourself and dig deep...what are you doing that is NOT working? Your biggest fear is not that her life is better without you. Your biggest fear is that when you look at yourself, she is right.

**********
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right about what, that she is happier without me than with me? I've already said that, and I believe it is true. She is happier in her own apartment than she is around me. It is true, I can see the tension and unease she has around me.

I feel like the confession of my using Porn and self pleasuring because of the lack of SF while scripturally sound to confess, is yet another reason for her to not trust me, even though she has been offered full access to my computers, everything to check to see that I've not done that since she moved out.

I've completed the Setting Captives Free course and have a victory in that aspect of my life.

And she cannot see that, because she didn't even know that was an issue. I was convince to confess that sin to her, and now she uses it to justify that she is making the right decision.

She doesn't want to hang around to see the changes that have occured in my life.

I understand that behavior made me selfish, that was time and energy I should have used to learn more about her, and to try to be more intimate with her. However, I became frustrated because my every attempt to get closer to her, in both sexual and non-sexual ways seemed to end in failure.

So being open and honest with her has not worked.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

Another important concept in this chapter is that the more-of-the-same approach maintains the problem and more likely intensifies it. You've heard of the 180 concept right? When you look at yourself and honestly consider what you are doing that is not working, the next step is to do 180 degrees exactly the opposite. If you are crying and begging her to come back, take a deep breath and tell HER that you are happy to have this chance to be apart from her so that you can have some personal time to yourself. You don't need to be cruel about it--be honest but be 180 degrees different. If you have been panicking and calling all the time, learn meditation to calm yourself and don't call her for two days. She'll wonder what you're up to. Continuing to do the same thing will magnify the problem and make it worse, so do something new and different.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I may call her about once a week, so I'd hardly say it's panicky or desperate. Seldom do we talk about the relationship. Tonight was different and we talked, we really talked.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

**********

Another important thought in this chapter is to relax and develop a plan. When my exH left me, I became a CJ-puddle and did not stop to thing about what I was doing. I begged, cried, demanded, acted hurt, even threatened...but I did not stop to slow down and think (at least not at first). Then, I did. I stopped the emotional whirlwind and stopped my whirling mind and took an emotional deep breath. I realized that this was not going to be over in a day or an hour, so I had some time. I realized that going off all unprepared and willy nilly was not profitable nor was it going to help me attain my goal (which at the time I thought was saving my marriage--and later I realized was saving me).

Tony, relax. You have time--possibly several months and maybe several years. There is not going to be a "magic fix" to this and there is not one magic action that makes her love you again. This is for the long haul and it's going to take a PLAN. Rest, restore yourself, and calmly come up with your plan.

**********

(con't)


CJ </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The divorce can be final in a matter of weeks. I don't know if I can continue to try if the divorce is complete. That may destroy my love bank for her.

I can see her point, I don't want the old marriage either, and the way she acts right now, she is not really appealing to me.

I don't know if I've addressed your questions. I really need to sleep, but have been unable to fall asleep in the past 30 minutes...

Tony

(slightly off topic, but worth discussing:)

Even if she is in a rush to get a divorce, unless you agree to everything, it does not need to go quickly. I am not advocating instigating a malicious divorce, but unless you lay down your rights to custody, agree 100% on property division and alimony and child support, and are in a "no fault" state, it does not need to go quickly. I do happen to live in a "no fault" state, and I did happen to have a fairly civil and agreeable divorce (relatively speaking) and it took four months from filing to judgment. You probably do have some time here. Not enough to sit around!!

**********

Okay, back to Chapter One. Another HUGE concept in this chapter that is worthy of time and contemplation is "there are no guarantees". At first, like you, I took this in a depressing kind of way--like even if I do all the right things, I still might not save my marriage. But the more I thought about it, the more I knew that I really already knew this...deep down. Even if you become the perfect, loving husband Tony, she may be hardened enough to choose to divorce you--and you can not change her or "make" her love you. Harsh, I know.

Here's what I can guarantee though...if you really look at yourself and work on yourself and draw close to God and become a more godly man, I can guarantee you that this divorce situation will be a victory for you. Here's what I mean. When my exH left me and then continued to commit other affairs while also telling me he was working on the marriage, I was devastated. No matter how much I learned or grew or humbled myself, he was NOT willing to stop having cybersex with other women or one-night-stands. He would NOT soften his heart or even consider truly saving our marriage. BUT...even though our marriage ended, I actually DID grow tremendously. I grew in humility and not only saw the error of my ways but worked on actually being different. I went to counseling and worked on myself. I became more godly and grew MUCH closer to God, so that now God is involved in my everyday life and I can hear Him. I used my exH's life choices as a wake up call to me. Even though our marriage ended, it was a victory for me. Now, I look back on all that hurt and all those tears, and I am thankful for it, because it changed my life so completely.

I know that sounds pretty empty and hollow right now. You want your wife back and you want to be loved RIGHT NOW. Well, I'm going to ask you to trust me on this one. If you use this for good, even if your wife chooses to follow through on the divorce, you will be a better man. I guarantee.

**********

JACK AND DEANNE

I found it interesting in this book that the affair example that the author chose to use was primarily told from the BS point of view. Being a BS myself, I completely understand the doubt, confusion, suspicion, guilt, betrayal, dying inside, hurt, anger, and pain that Deanne felt. But the author does not reveal much of Jack's side, as if Deanne is justified in HER hurt, but Jack is not justified in his.

I'm not sure if this will make much sense, but try to step into the shoes of a WS before you utterly tell them that they are soulless, selfish, thoughtless, cruel family-wreckers. Jack probably dated Deanne for at least a year, and being proper Christian folks, they maybe kissed and petted, but did not actually have intercourse before marriage. They talked about sex and seemed to want the same things, but after the wedding and honeymoon, she was not really as interested in sex as she had indicated. Well...Jack is a good christian man who loves his wife, so he decided to live with it.

They lived in a cute little one-room apartment and then miracle of miracles, one day Deanne told him she was pregnant. Now, one room would not be big enough for a family, so Jack felt some pressure to earn a little more, and he took a part time job on the weekend. He was spending more hours away from Deanne. And after the first baby, a second came along and she wanted a house--not just a rental. So he climbed up the corporate ladder even more and spent more hours away from Deanne.

With two kids all to herself, Deanne began to be harsh with Jack...why didn't he help her with the kids and the house? Why did he have to be gone all those hours? And from the two kids she had gained some weight and he no longer found her as physically attractive. But, how could he tell her that? I mean, she was his wife and the mother of his children! How do you say, "Honey, I'm not attracted to you anymore--you're too fat"? So he began to lose some interest in sex too...and why do the romantic stuff if there's no sex, right? Hey, why would he want to meet her needs when she's not meeting his?

So, she gets tied up in PTA, and soccer-mom, and neighborhood watch, and he gets tied up in work, work, work. Then a new girl gets hired at work, and she is pretty. Not stunning...not a drop dead gorgeous woman, but she's got a figure a little and pretty eyes. But mostly, she looks at Jack without judgment and nagging. She thinks he's smart. She thinks he's funny and witty. She thinks he's fun to be with. She admires him. She flirts a little with him. Nothing big at first, but enough to make him feel good about himself. "I still got it." She looks at him with interest and desire--Deanne looks at him with tired eyes and the same old nag in her throat.

So...the new office girl flirts a little more, and to show her that he won't be embarrassed, he flirts back even a little more. Oh, he justifies that it's just flirting and nothing will come of it. He starts making up reasons to be around her and stays late to spend a little more time with her. Then, one day, she touches his arm and it's like electricity. Deanne doesn't even want to touch him--plus, he's losing his desire to touch her! So the next day at work, Jack hugs the new girl, and it is AWESOME. Someone is excited by him. He has found his new adrenalin. So he makes excuses, lies, anything to be with her. They never sleep together, but one day, Deanne sits outside his office and sees him come out and kiss her....

Hmmm...why do this? Why present the WS's side? Here's why. Because as BS's we tend to sit in pretty high judgment, thinking of our WS's as selfish and heartless, when in reality, we as BS's contributed. Now, the WS's decided to step over the line and not stop things--they are responsible for that part, so don't get me wrong--but it wasn't done in a vacuum. They aren't so selfish and heartless. Just like anybody else, Jack was looking for someone to look at him with love in their eyes, and he wasn't getting that from his wife and he didn't know how to tell her.

So we are back to this: what we are doing is NOT working. Looking at the Jack and Deanne story from Jack's point of view, do you think that if he left Deanne to be with the new girl that if Deanne begged and panicked and cried for him to come back that it would be attractive to him? Or would he probably think, "I was with you and you threw me away. I wanted you to want me enough to admire me and desire me, but you didn't even try! My life is better without you, and now I don't have to listen to you nagging me about the weights around my neck!"

**********

There are some significant choices to be made:

* Are you going to react out of hurt and anger?
Or are you going to respond calmly from your plan?

* Are you going to face your part in this head-on without ducking? Or are you going to run away and blame other and squirm and duck?

* Are you going to face the pain and loneliness and fear? Or are you going to numb it with addictions to food, drink, drugs or sex?

* Are you going to find the treasure in this trial? Or are you going to bury it?

* Are you going to humble yourself and learn? Or are you going to act like you know it all?

* Are you going to admit the error of your own ways (since you are the only one you can change)? Or are you going to allow pride to rule you and make you incapable of admitting to yourself that you made mistakes.


Tony...this is heady stuff, and it's only Chapter ONE!! Chapter Two: Openning a Closed Spirit will probably take awhile, because once a spirit is closed, it is like a protective wall of shields. You can not open it by force, and it covers a LOT of hurt. So rest now, and get ready for tommorrow.

Your assignments:
1) Do something to care for you. Rest. Renew yourself. Listen to music you like. Go to a park you like. Light some candles if that soothes you. Do something!

2) Read what I've written. If you have questions we will talk and will not go onto Chapter Two until we're done. If other people write, read what they write too.

3) Pray for willingness to open your heart.

Meanwhile, I have a big day ahead of me: school, work, and Girl Nite with my daughter. See you tomorrow night again about 9pm-ish!


CJ

Java/Tony,
First off, I feel your pain. I have been doing my best to not LB and succeeded for thepast 2-3 weeks. Then last night, I went food shopping for her befause she was so drained. Then we were suppose to take care of our D's hair last night, the lice are back <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> , at 10 pm. I fell asleep on the floor. She had D wake me up, and W said she would take care of D's hair in the AM. So I am half asleep and doing my laundry when she complains about the grocery list and why didn't I scratch things off? What did I buy, I don't do things like normal people. (I '+' in front of each item I bought, and a '-' with a circle around it for each item I couldn't find). She said she didn't understand what I was doing, and laced into me, half asleep. So I took, she said grabbed and touched her, the pen and circled the entire item. I then went to bed on the sofa, my current bed <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> . A few minutes later she wnet totally nuts, and of course, everything I do comes back to the A. She was going to do a cake for me (have to pay her) for my church's craft show. She was going to charge me $40 for it. Now she says why should she give me a break, she hopes I die. Anyway I digress. I have slowly learned to stop LBing, but the devil found the one spot I forgot to protect, my I am tired, I don't THINK.

Secondly, what is this book you and CJ are talking about?

Thirdly, Below is my email. If you want to send me an email, I will send you my number and we can chat if you want to. I too am close to D. She has filed and yesterday she brought up that in her tirade. Even though I am the WS and not the BS like you, perhaps we can help eachother. This whole mess has brought me closer to God and I do feel Him in my life. Just don't feel like He is working in my W's life, but, that is my failing to understand His ways are not my ways.

"Father. Cover your son, Tony, with Your love and peace. Give him wisdom to see the error that he has made and to strive to be more like Your Son, Jesus Christ. Guide him in his actions and words to his wife. Convict his heart (and his head) when he is not living his life as you want.
Comfort all of us here who seek restoration to our marriages and more importantly, salvation of our spouses (be they BS or WS).
This we ask through the Most Precious Blood of Jesus Christ that was poured out so we may enjoy eternity with You. Amen."

ttsmm

There is so much here to read, and I was paged again at about 4AM. So I'll look at it after 6pm Central

Thanks that I'm getting rid of the pager after 5pm.

DW called me this AM asking if I could pick up the kids since she wasn't feeling well.

I guess I'm good for something.

Tony

PS ttsmm,

The book is "Winning Your Wife Back Before It's Too Late" by Gary Smalley

t

<small>[ February 23, 2004, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: javaSansContour ]</small>

I will get back to this topic. My brain is really tired, but I know the pager will not wake me tonight.

However, I'm setting the alarm for 4:30AM. I need to get back to my routine, and devotions early in the AM is part of that.

See you in about 6 hours.

Tony

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:
<strong> What if that is what I'm supposed to do? My wife has left. She has had at least an emotional affair with another man if not a physical affair. She has withheld information from me that would help me treat her the way she wanted to be treated, she seemed to dislike sex...Or at the very least, she didn't act like she enjoyed it with me.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tony, I have pondered this post, and I do not have an answer for you. There is not some action that you can do, and I can't "make it better for you." I can say that I understand what you're going through...and I can say that I've been where you are--wishing desperately that your spouse would just be honest with you and tell you truthfully what they want, instead of the twisted, inconsistent squirming and avoiding and denying.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Now I want my wife back, but I want a marriage that is full of love and passion. I don't want to feel like I'm only a meal ticket that gets some sex service out of a sense of duty maybe once every 4-6 weeks...I guess my heart is broken and hardened. I feel like my W (cheated me). </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hear ya. I think you may be correct in that right now, you are so exhausted and broken that your heart is hard--it's just too hard to keep hurting and hurting and hurting all the time. Tony, I suspect you've hit a bit of a wall, almost like the adrenalin crash. It was such a shock to your system that for a while you ran on pure, raw ENERGY to figure it out and work on it and do something and cry and throw up and just FIX IT!! Now, the energy is fading, and to protect yourself from further hurt, you're hardening a bit.

I think we may need to shift our focus from Winning Back Your Wife, to saving Tony.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I'm praying for this, but what if the woman I want isn't found in my wife? I believe that I have biblical grounds to divorce without guilt or without dishonoring God.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Frankly, I think we all struggle with this. Like most everyone here on this board, I strongly believe that marriage is a lifetime commitment, stronger than just a "vow"--it's a blood bond. My exH was a non-believer, had affairs, had mental illness and sexual addiction, had physical illnesses, and was abusive--I believe if anyone had "biblical grounds" to divorce it was me. Shoot, he was a non-believer and wanted to leave me! Anyway, the point is that I think a marriage is for better/for worse, in sickness and in health--and that includes mental health. I believe I had a duty to my husband--especially if he was seeking treatment and working on his various ailments.

When he left me and the kids so he could be free to pursue his "lifestyle", I had no idea whether I should wait on God to reconcile us or look for a new mate some day or what. I had no idea whether I should consider myself a "free" woman or consider myself married and dedicated to God's service or what. I knew that I was created with a strong desire to share myself and my life with others, and I also knew that I was created in such a way that I enjoy intimacy and marriage. I knew that I wished that my exH would WANT to recover and WANT to be faithful--but reality was that he did not want that at all. So, how does that all fit together?? I don't know. Like you, I'd like a close, intimate connection with someone on a physical/emotional/mental/spiritual level--and that doesn't seem likely with my exH...so where does that leave me??

Here's what it boils down to, Tony: I don't know. I don't know waht "to do" to win back your wife. I don't know how to soften your heart again. And I don't know if you will have the loving, passionate relationship that you long for with THIS wife. With God all things are possible. BUT you know what? I DO know who knows these things--and that comforts me. God knows our hearts and He has a plan. That is comforting. Our only goal needs to be to get in sync with God and stay focused on that. If we are in God's will, then what is supposed to happen WILL happen. Of THAT I can be sure...and so can you.


CJ

CJ,

I have moments where I realize I have everything I need, but not necessarily all of what I want.

I don't think my desires are sinful, but yet they may be in the way of getting closer to God.

I slept through my alarm today, that is how tired I was. (Just an FYI, I usually get up BEFORE the alarm.)

I've read what you have written as well as the posts on the other thread and have a lot to ponder. I know I will be ok, and I believe that my wife is saved.

In some ways I can understand, she is just going after the desires of her heart, to be happy and at peace.

I don't wish her ill will, and while some say that some catastrophic "hitting bottom" may bring her back, I don't really want to see her hit bottom. I'm sure you all understand that.

I'll try to write more tonight, to read a bit more and put more effort into my answers.

I just wanted to let you know I'm still tuned in, but last week just ran over me, in a manner of speaking.

Tony

Java,

You know what? Let's take the night off. You're exhausted--physically, emotionally and mentally--and I'm not sure long dissertations on "Winning Your Wife Back" are what you need to restore your soul. How about if you do something just FUN, and something renewing, and I will do the same. Then, about 9pm MT, I'll tell you what I did and you tell me what you did.

Remember, even Psalm 23 says, "The Lord is my Shepherd, I shall not want. He maketh me to lie down in green pastures. He leadeth me beside the still waters. He restoreth my soul." I am going to "Maketh" you lie down! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I think I shall listen to some Frank Sinatra tunes, and read my "for fun" book: "King of Torts" by John Grisham...then go to bed early. But...I'll check back at 9pm to tell you if I did what I planned or something else. BTW, having FUN and doing something FUN is one of the ways that a person can re-discover joy. So, if you've always liked to color, buy some crayons and a Peanuts colorbook and go for it! haha <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />


CJ

Do you know how hard it is for an ESTJ to just have fun without a plan, LOL?

I've gotta get my financial papers in order for the visit to the lawyer tomorrow. Bank and brokerage statements, credit card statements, W2's and such.

I'll try to have some fun in there too...

Tony

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:
<strong> Do you know how hard it is for an ESTJ to just have fun without a plan, LOL?

Tony </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh my heavens, Tony, we are in trouble!! My exH is an ESTJ and I am an INFP--natural opposites!! OY!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> No wonder we can't communicate well. I should have known. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Okay, before I start my shift into ESTJ-communication mode, let me tell you about my fun. I went bowling with some friends, and I bowled 161, 117, and 136. Respectable, hey? I had a VERY good time and once laughed so hard I thought I would pee my pants. This is something that INFP chicks do when we are ROFLMAO.

After bowling, I got myself an ice cream sundae (my absolute weakness is ice cream), and then ate each bite slowly and lusciously. YUM!! What a treat!!! I also took a drive and listened to some Sheryl Crow, so that was mellow. In a few moments, I'm going to be coloring.

* * * * *

Okay, I'm ready to shift into ESTJ-communication mode. You like facts, plans, schedules, thoughts, and black and white, right?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> You need to organize your financial papers?? Well, how about if you organize your finances alphabetically by category, in date order? Wouldn't that be fun?? Then you could jot down some facts relating to those financial papers in chronological order. WEEE! Finally, one big dose of Larry King Live, and you should be right as rain! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Soooo...for tonight we take the night off, have whatever our own definition of fun is, and start up refreshed and renewed tomorrow night. I will do my best to remember that you are ESTJ and relate to facts and figures, but if I digress into feelings and perceptions, will you just poke me in the ribs? Thanks.


CJ

P.S. I almost forgot! Your assignment! What do you think think about this statement: "The Greater the hurt, the longer the healing time"? Do you agree or disagree? How great do you think the hurt is? Quantify it if you can (scale of 1 to 10 maybe) or use some other means of measurement that seems to fit your situation. How much healing time do you think is needed right now? Do you think you fully understand the depth of her pain? Do you think she is more of a "feeler" than you are?

Let me give you an example: if my exH were to come to the Lord today and begin living today like a godly man; faithful, gentle, and loving husband; and thoughtful and devoted father, how much healing time would I need to trust him again? How great is my pain over the way I was treated abusively--the abandonment--and the multiple affairs? On a scale of 1-10 (1 being very little hurt, and 10 being complete emotional devastation verging on breakdown), I would say 9+. Because I have walked with God and some time has elapsed and I eased some of my own pain, it is probably 7-ish right now. But the plain and simple truth is that my understanding of life as I knew it was destroyed by someone I loved, and so the healing time I would require if he were to try to make it right with me and reconcile starting today would be great. I don't trust him and I don't trust me with him. I am afraid of him. I don't believe he loves me. I am afraid of the devastation of another affair and do not really even want to risk it again.

My point here is this. My pain is great. The healing time required would be long--and that's assuming he started trying to make amends today and did NO FURTHER DAMAGE. So, can you see it from your wife's side at all? What do you extrapolate would be her pain rating--and healing time? Do you have any thoughts about this or any questions?

I'll expect at least one paragraph-post-topic-or something. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

CJ,

Seems like you think ESTJ is a bad thing. If you read my personality profile there is a lot of good in there.

http://www.personalitypage.com/ESTJ.html

I have to say that yes, I'm guilty of applying logic to a situation that requires emotional sensitivity. I'm getting better. Last Sunday night when I was talking with W, we got on the subject of money and her just calling and saying that I have to pay the pre-school tuition. We got on the topic of money, and all she was saying was things like:

You make 4x as much money as I do. (I also still pay ALL the bills from our home, her van, PLUS I give her what she asked for in Child Support. Not to mention that if my filing status changes to single, my taxes will probably rise significantly. My withholding as a single is $500 more each month.)

You had money to buy a second car. (I bought a 9 year old car, paid cash, I'm still making payments on her car. I sold a newer car that I had payments on, took the cash I netted over the payoff and put it on this car.)

Your car insurance wouldn't be as expensive if you didn't have two cars. (I pay more to cover her van than my two cars combined.)

I didn't promise to pay my credit card bill. (She not only promised to do this, but had the bill sent to the apartment, and has not paid it yet since she has left.)

So yes, I'm focused on all of the logic, as I don't really understand she is hurt.

I do KNOW as a fact that she is hurt, but I certainly don't understand it. I've expressed that I know she is hurt, and I've heard her say that she is hurt, and it seems I still hurt her and don't even know it. She said the conversation Sunday was painful.

So I asked her why she didn't share that with me? No answer. I ended it as soon as I realized it was hurting her. But how am I supposed to know it hurts if she doesnt tell me.

My W is probably your MBTI type, INFP from my best guess. Of course, she refuses to take any sort of test and has refused to take any of the MB questionaires as well.

Again, I'm guilty of applying logic here. She hurts, she just told me she is hurt, so I want to do the work needed so I can learn not to hurt her, so I've apologized for hurting her and asked her to tell me in ways that I can understand how she hurts. She is so withdrawn that she cannot or will not provide this information.

She just says she is hurt and that is supposed to be enough for me.

I have to accept that perhaps that is all she wants to tell me or is willing to tell me. However, I still want to know more, as well as get that chance to rebuild the bank.

I don't even know specifically what to apologize for, I just have this general information that she hurts.

I know she resents the money issue. Money has always been an issue. I'm a saver, and she is a spender. I'm sure it looks to her like I had money for my hobbies, but would give very little to her. When I look at the facts, I've spent far more on her and the kids than I've spent on my hobbies.

But she feels differently, and I don't know how to deal with these fears. We now have debt, a lot of debt, debt that I didn't have the day before I married.

I know I handled this badly, because once I became unhappy, I started spending more on my car hobby. Well I've sold them all, all the toys and just have two "beaters" to drive. All of my wheels, extra tires, and performance goodies are gone on e-bay. Oh, I have one wheel still remaining, it only drew $1 on E-Bay so I no-saled it since it didn't meet my reserve.

Ditto for a bunch of extra computer gear.

I'm sure it will take a long time, and since I'm logic driven, this makes no sense to me at all. Since I don't know exactly what hurts her, what she wants (other than to not be married to me) I have little hope of:

a) not stepping on her toes and hurting her more
b) knowing what to do to get to the point where I can even rebuild the lovebank

I'm sure you can understand why I need a plan, and need to see things working.

I don't know if I'll ever understand how much she hurts, but it must be really bad since she has been gone 5 months now and won't even go to dinner with me, let alone consider reconciliation.

So now you understand why I cry out to God to give me understanding. Why I'm so frustrated that he hasn't made her pain more apparent to me. Why I'm so frustrated with her (again logic) that if she felt this bad, why didn't she just say she was hurting and unhappy.

She never used the words I'm unhappy until she announced on Sep 6 that she wanted to move out. BTW, for being so sensitive, she picked a really lousy day, I just returned from the funeral of a 103 year old great aunt who I greatly admired.

Well, I did nothing last night. I just rotted my mind watching TV. I watched a pretty funny game show on SpikeTV called Oblivious.

I'm getting my papers together this AM

Tony

I'm off to bed early tonight. Trying to catch up on my rest...

I hope my comments are satisfactory <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Tony
Proud to be an ESTJ, LOL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:
<strong>Seems like you think ESTJ is a bad thing. If you read my personality profile there is a lot of good in there. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh my, java, I have given you entirely the wrong impression. In fact, I tend to like ESTJ's! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I most certainly do NOT think ESTJ is a "bad" thing--any moreso than INFP is a "bad" thing. It's just completely different that I am! The way that I interpret data and live in my world is quite different from the way that you interpret data and live in YOUR world, but that doesn't mean it's bad.

When I was with my exH, I remember thinking that it would be "ideal" to be with someone who was also an INFP or perhaps was one letter off, like INTP or something. We would understand each other so much easier! Then I realized that by living with someone my natural opposite, I had such an opportunity to learn about differences. Even though I may filter data through my feelings, it is to my advantage to at least learn about people who filter data through their throughts (analyzing, evaluating, logic). It's GOOD for me to learn how to thing (haha)!

As for the rest of it, I have to be honest with you. It's midnight here in the Mile High City, and I'm beat. I have a headache from trying to keep my eyes open! OY!

I'll write more tomorrow, I promise, but for tonight, I'm hitting the hay.


CJ

CJ,

It's just the roll eyes emoticon. Too me, it's not a positive expression.

Tony

Okay,

"NOTE TO SELF" The rolleyes emoticon is not a positive one for Tony.

Got it.

Just so you know, I always that that was an "oh brother" halfway funny one; as in when I said I like ESTJ's... Well my exH is an ESTJ and I did love him truly, and my son is an ESTJ cookie cutter of his dad and I love and like him, and most of the people I enjoy as people have at least E-T-and some portions of J. So, yep, I'm a sucker for ESTJ's and somehow end up enjoying them. So I did the rolleyes to indicate, "It figures--haha!"

I don't know what it is. I am wiped out today. I'm going to try to get to this thread earlier today than usual, so I can get to bed at 9pm!! Wouldn't that just be a miracle! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Peace be with you today, Java.


CJ

CJ,

I hope you are recovered. I don't know how much time I'll have the next few days. W asked me to keep our daughter until Wednesday morning.

Tony

Hey, Tony...

Are you ready to come back and get some schoolin'?

I will do my very best to communicate some "Feeler" type concepts to a "Thinker" type audience, but if you do not understand try to bear in mind it's like teaching a French class in German--something gets lost in translation.

Shall we start the Penalties chapter tomorrow night? I'm game if you are!

Meanwhile, tonight, I'll pray that God will use my typing to communicate with you, and pray that God will soften your heart to receive understanding. Remember, the goal here is not a witty, conceptual debate or evaluation of the facts...the goal is to gain some kind of understanding of what your wife may be feeling. If "facts" are inaccurate, listen for the message and not for perfect facts--okay?? Will you try?

Good! Me Too! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Now, it is that 1am hour and I must retire! I've had a hurtful, triggery day and I hate when I get all emotional like that, but I do. The best remedy is sometimes just to let the day end.


CJ

I probably won't have time until Wed night, but if I do get time, I'll post my "view of the facts" and you tell me how they make you feel, LOL

Otherwise, if you feel lead to share something, don't let me hold you back.

Tony

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:
<strong> ...but if I do get time, I'll post my "view of the facts" and you tell me how they make you feel, LOL</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YAY!! Thank you, Tony, for joining in the fun! As long as you stay logical and analytical, I'll stay all touchy-feeley...okay?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I may write something tonight, because I have some time, but I'll understand if you can't write until Wednesday. Have fun with your little girl!!


CJ

Ok,

Penalties:

1. Recruiting. How will this make my wife feel? (After all, it's about feelings, right?) It's competitive, adversarial, taking sides. It may feel like you are stealing someone important to her. Many times, I heard her say she didn't even want me to TALK to her family. She has a great fear that I would try to recruit them.

I did talk to them, but I think I dodged actually recruiting them. I said I understood that they needed to be there for Lori, and I just wanted them to know that I was sorry for hurting her, that I didn't really understand what I had done, but never wanted to hurt her, nor did I realize that I was so insensitive.

However, even that upset her.

So I try to avoid her family as much as possible.

2. Blaming, well that's hard not to do. I mean she went out and had at least an EA if not more. She didn't tell me in a way I understood how she felt, even knowing before we married that I wasn't really in tune with feelings. However, I did tell her that I didn't want to run over her feelings (this conversation was before we married) and that I may need help understanding how she feels.

But, since I can only fix myself, I should only blame myself.

This one is really the hardest to overcome for me, because if I think too much about what has happened, then I really think divorce is the right answer.

So in that sense, I can understand how she feels, that she just doesn't want to do the work anymore. We both worked hard in our own ways, independently to build a marriage.

This doesn't work very well.

So in some ways, I can see how she feels about blame, because even blaming her makes ME feel bad.

This is one of my daily prayers, that I can really forgive her, and not hold this against her.

3. Critical Spirit

Well, I'm guilty here too. I mentioned in another thread about how I tend to be critical, and how about 10 days ago, while on-call I noticed that the only cars I remembered on the roads were the ones with significant defects.

Criticism if overdone makes anyone feel bad, and since I believe W to be an INFP, criticsm is even more dangerous.

4. Being impatient. W mentioned many times that I didn't give her enought space. Gee, she has her own apartment, etc. and she still felt like she didn't have enough space. Well, my desire to "fix" the problem certainly overrode all the advice about being patient.

Besides patience is one of the fruits of the spirit, so if I'm acting impatiently, then I'm probably not in the right frame of mind or I'm not responding to the Holy Spirit, but the unHoly Spirit.

5. Setting a Time Frame

Well, I sorta did this saying how long I wanted to plan A before moving to a plan B. But I don't think I expressed this to her. However, setting a time frame does little for my mind and soul.

6. Displaying Affection

No opportunity. I've not touched W much at all since Sep 6th. I may have touched her shoulder, but certainly no hugs, no kisses, nothing. I'm sure that would make her uncomfortable.

7. Overkilling

Yes, when I started doing the things she said she wanted me to do, she said it annoyed her because it was like "Why Now?"

Well, I wanted to show her what I was capible of doing. However, to my own credit, when she said it bothered her, I stopped. So I can be sensitive if I understand how she feels, and to be honest, I was following the advice of Steve Harley who counselled me to see what I could do.

8. Underestimating Hurt

Guilty, since I'm not a feeling kinda guy, I have no idea how much she hurts. In my defense, I'd like to say if I did know she was hurting months or years before she moved out, I would have been more than willing to address those things.

I underestimated her hurt during our entire relationship. I had no idea. Over two years ago, I asked her how we could get an hour a day together and asked her to tell me when she wanted to do that, what had to be done in order to have that time.

I must have asked for that on three seperate occassions and she never did say when she wanted to do this. Why didn't I just make a plan? Because I wanted her to feel like she had a lot of say in how we got to do that. If she wanted me to plan the whole thing, I would have been happy to do so, if she would have just said, it's a great idea, you run with it.

Whoops, sounds like I'm blaming her. No, not really. I do wish she would have taken my requests to spend more time together, just focusing on US or what was on our minds more seriously, but I didn't push for it either, nor did I present my own detailed plan, but simply the rough idea that we needed time alone with each other each day.

Well, I still think I might have had a better chance at understand how she felt if we had this time together on a daily basis.

9. Boundaries, I don't even know if I could express her boundaries. If I don't know them, it's hard for me to respect them, now isn't it?

That's my quick take over the last 30 minutes or so of thought and re-reading.

Tony

Must be working on patience now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Tony

Ah, Java!

I am so sorry and hope you will accept my apology. I'm not dead, but I have broken my typing fingers (heehee...). No, not really. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I had to do the company's payroll AND my daughter is in a play that is running Wed-Fri. this week and Thur-Fri. next week.

HOWEVER...

I have managed to write quite a lengthy reply which probably will not fit on just one post! OY <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

So, I have decided to post TWO (count 'em) posts, so that you no longer have wait with baited breath.


CJ

The suspense is killing me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

So I'm off to the autoparts store. Seems the Prizm may need some new struts. I know there is a cracked exhaust manifold as well, but that seals up quite nicely when it warms up, and besides, it passed emissions on 2/13/04 (same day I got a copy of her divorce filing)


Thanks,

Tony

<small>[ March 05, 2004, 06:28 PM: Message edited by: javaSansContour ]</small>

Tony,

Okay, here we go into the real meat of this book. These next two chapters are the most difficult for me to write about and remember, so let&#8217;s be a little gentle here. On the other hand, whilst these chapters are not so easy to face, these are also the chapters that bring the most hope if you can really take them to heart, eliminate pride, and get real with yourself.

By now, my ESTJ friend, you must know that winning back your wife is not a one-step process. There is no magic word or magic deed that you can do to make your wife go, &#8220;Oh, I love him again!&#8221; but there is a plan. There is a step-by-step process that can lead to winning your wife back. To me, that is encouraging, because as long as I can see there is a plan and hope of finally getting to the prize at the end, then I can endure. My advice to you, my brother, would be to work the plan. Do not skip steps, do not rush ahead and try to do all the steps at the same time, and do not belittle the process. Take each step and DWELL on each step&#8230; Really take the time to apply it to you and see how it affects your life. The tendency is to want to solve the problem now, now, NOW-but work the plan and find some encouragement in seeing movement and improvement and STEPS.

The PLAN:
1. Recognize the characteristics within you that are decreasing love and harming reconciliation. Get Real with yourself, be open-minded and humble, and do better.
2. Learn the things that will open a closed spirit, and develop those behaviors so you do them more!
3. Discover how to HONOR your wife and children, and start practicing it!
4. Practice sacrificial love-become a servant to your wife and family
5. Initiate change in yourself
6. Understand why some women are not able to reconcile
7. The Ultimate Goal: draw closer to the Lord
8. Develop patience and persistence
9. Find accountability partners
10. The pre-reconciliation report


PENALTIES:
1) Recruiting others to &#8220;your side&#8221;-don&#8217;t share your side with your kids or her family.
At this time, I can pretty well guarantee you that your wife feels abandoned by the man who was supposed to love her forever-even if she has OM. She&#8217;s probably just so tickled that someone found her cute, smart, funny, pretty, etc. that her defenses were lowered. Anyway, by recruiting others to your side, she will feel isolated, cut-off, and abandoned by her friends and family too. Speaking as a divorced chick, one of the things that hurt me the worst at the time was that my ex&#8217;s family just stopped speaking to me. It also hurt me when several of our business-associate-friends took his side so they could continue doing business with him, and never once even inquired if I were alive or dead or needed help. She already feels abandoned by you-don&#8217;t take her friends and family and support system too.

NEVER (I mean this&#8230;NEVER) bad-mouth their mother in front of your kids-no matter what she does. This is horribly, incredibly hard to do, because you want the kids to understand what you&#8217;re doing and why&#8230;but if you do bad-mouth their mother, the kids will be mad at YOU not at HER for how she behaved. On the other hand, if you do you best to uplift and promote their mom to the kids, they will remember that you always spoke well of her and made it not seem like a sin for them to love their own mother. This is important, Tony!! As the kids grow older, they will understand more and more and more; in fact, it never ceases to amaze me when my kids tell me what they understand or how they feel about what happened, because they get it and they came to that conclusion on their own.

BTW, recruiting can take less obvious forms than talking to friends and relatives and kids, too. Recruiting can also be going to the church&#8230;to the service she likes (&#8220;because you like it too!&#8221;) so that she has no spiritual home. Recruiting can be putting out the false façade of being a pillar of the community and beating her behind closed doors so no one will believe her. Recruiting can be talking to all the teachers at the kids&#8217; school about her and what she did. Do you catch the theme here? Recruiting is when you remove, deny, eliminate or &#8220;confiscate&#8221; her support.

Now, you may wonder, &#8220;Why should I let her lie to her parents so that they support her divorcing me?? She needs to have a little LESS support so she&#8217;ll come to her senses!&#8221; I can honestly say that I do wish friends and families were a little more courageous and stood up to their loved ones when they are clearly wrong; however, everyone deserves and NEEDS to have a family that loves them and accepts them as they are. If you interfere with her family, she will most likely see that as you interfering with someone loving her and accepting her&#8230;and she already associates you with lack of love, so don&#8217;t go there.

2) Blaming her for your marital issues-&#8220;you&#8221; statements are devastating.
When you blame her for the issues your marriage is having, there are two things going on: you are looking externally for fault, and you are not looking internally at how you contributed. Now, it would be quite easy for me to say, &#8220;I&#8217;m divorced because my exH was and abusive, mentally ill sex addict&#8221; but then I would be assigning blame externally rather than looking internally at how I contributed. My exH MAY BE all those things, but that has nothing to do with me, nor does it come close to solving our marital issues, and it certainly inhibits (if not prevents) reconciliation! Blaming is fear to face yourself. Blame is an accusation, condemnation, or criticism of someone else. Blame is holding another person responsible for you, your feelings, or the situation. Blame is very, VERY destructive and cuts to the bone-especially when someone is really trying hard and still gets the guilt job. Ultimately, though, blame is a defense mechanism to avoid looking at yourself and admitting what YOU did wrong!

In my instance, I did several things wrong in my marriage. I was codependent and held myself responsible to &#8220;make him happy&#8221; and &#8220;not make him angry&#8221; and &#8220;keep the peace&#8221; etc. I tried to control my exH&#8217;s acting out in his sexual addiction-I snooped, I was suspicious, I yelled, I accused, etc. in hopes that he would not do it! I was angry and expressed my anger too aggressively and inappropriately. I stuffed my anger until it exploded. I was very, VERY critical and rarely if ever appreciative and admiring (although in my feelings I admired so many things about him-I just never voiced them). Especially toward the end, I made the conscious choice to be just as hurtful and cruel and wounding to him as he was to me, because I got sick of taking it from him. I nagged, nagged, nagged. I did not let him be responsible for his own choices. I was demanding; I was clingy; I was tired and crabby all the time. I made no effort to be attractive. I allowed him to treat me poorly, and I allowed him to trample all of my boundaries.

My point here is not to have a litany of what a loser CJ is, but rather to point out that I got real with myself. My exH may have had his problems, but they are his to deal with-I had problems of my own that * I * had to deal with! If I had blamed him, none of my own issues would have been addressed or changed.

Furthermore, as a woman whose husband was a blamer, I felt HORRIBLE guilt and an unending burden to fix everything and make it right&#8230;and I couldn&#8217;t. Part of my heart actually believed it was my fault that he went out looking for affairs. Part of my Self was diminished every time I took the blame for one of his or our issues. It felt like carrying a millstone around my neck, and every time that stone felt a little lighter, he would add more weight to it. My self-esteem was demolished and my own self-image was tarnished. Also, speaking as a Feeler person (INFP), each blaming statement felt like a scourge-there&#8217;s a little whip and cut in my heart every time I&#8217;m blamed for something that&#8217;s not my responsibility, and eventually all those little cuts add up to a ground-up heart. That&#8217;s the price that your &#8220;feeler&#8221; loved one pays when you blame them rather than taking personal responsibility.

There is more to come, but for now, this is a lot to digest and I'm going to end here. I hope this stimulates some thoughts, questions, and understanding--and this evening I will post more about Penalties and see if I can respond to what you wrote too!!


CJ

Wow CJ. Pretty cool, and extensive, advise. We can all relate so well to specifics others are going through. Perhaps a little advice for me, a simple, hard-working guy, well devoted to his family (wife and children). Yet one whose wife is intent on leaving regardless.

Java - be cool and leave the vindication to a higher power. Your job is to love, whatever that calls you to do - just do it. Life's complexities are just that... complex. The simpler we can break things down, the easier it is to deal / manage matters. Best of luck. But, remember, others have free will also. And, they will exercise it, not necessarily to your liking. Keep it simple.

Meanwhile, 2P2 here has a wife that leaves and does not come home until really late hourse / early mornings as often as possible. She comes home very late/early morning puts the key into the lock and gently (and softly) opens the door like unto a thief who does not want to be heard or caught. As long as she is not caught, she can effectively deny (hide) what is happening.

She is living the single life while still (legally) married. We just saw attorneys this week and have gotten the ball rolling down that horrific path. Everyone is against this, but hey, comes back to choice... once the heart is haredened it is gone.

Feeling she is being (extremely) unfaithful to me, I feel like going out there and being more unfaithful. The reward I get for working hard to allow her to be a SAHM, is this: certain devastation (underlying details not important).

Sorry, not trying to make this about me, but keeping it simple is hard to do. The wisest of men have tried and failed. To us, it can be the only thing that secures our survival.

Hard at work - soft at play. Truly confused, all the time.

Incidentally, why is it some women are not able to reconcile? I am told, once a woman has made up her mind, it is done... there is no turning back. For a spouse that has been unfaithful, can there be so much guilt that it would prevent reconciliation? Can they forgive themselves and actually repent - have remorse and regret, and actually go on?

Yikes. Life is way too complicated. Who says it makes sense. Whose trying to make sense of it? School me -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> In my instance, I did several things wrong in my marriage. I was codependent and held myself responsible to “make him happy” and “not make him angry” and “keep the peace” etc. I tried to control my exH’s acting out in his sexual addiction-I snooped, I was suspicious, I yelled, I accused, etc. in hopes that he would not do it! I was angry and expressed my anger too aggressively and inappropriately. I stuffed my anger until it exploded. I was very, VERY critical and rarely if ever appreciative and admiring (although in my feelings I admired so many things about him-I just never voiced them). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Boy CJ, this is ME in and out! When I realized this about myself, I fell on my knees so hard & cried to God for mercy & forgiveness! I couldn't stop crying & asking Him to help me change! Why is it us women can be so headstrong sometimes that we are blinded to the things we're doing to hurt our men? Unfortunately, sometimes we have to learn this lesson the hard way. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Thinking of you, God bless! PS, did you read my thread & my response to you?

Java - listen to this woman carefully. I'm glad you're taking the steps necessary to really understand your W. God's blessings for you!

You know, I appreciate what CJ is saying and all, but there is a second half to this.

I would like to understand her in person!

She has been gone since 1 Oct 2003 and I have very little contact with her.

So I also ask that you pray for her, like I do, that she can be healed of the hurt, and that I don't hurt her.

It's just so frustrating, because I never tried to hurt her, never wanted to hurt her, yet she tells me she hurts so much when she sees me and can never imagine us back together again.

She has filed for divorce!

I know, God COULD intervene, and I'd like him to. However, I know that we all have free will. I ernestly want to be more sensitive and have more hope. Someday's it's just hard to keep holding on to hope.

Well, since I can't really do anything to fix my marriage, I'll tinker with the cars and fix the washing machine today.

Oh, Step D. called last night and wanted some clothes, so I took them over.

SHE WOULDN'T LET ME COME IN TO SEE MY YD!!!

I was disappointed, but didn't get too upset.

I did feel like I was taken advantage of. At 9PM, I went through her closet here, got what she wanted, drove 20 minutes to the apartment, and then was kept outside the door, not allowed to see YD who was still awake <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I did leave a V-Mail for WW letting her know that I was disappointed with SD.

I doubt much will come of it. I left another message today asking to speak with YD.

Pray for me, I'm a little down today.

However, I am enjoying a Gyro and a Michelob Ultra right now. (Usually only one barley pop a day, maybe two on a Saturday or Sunday.)

Tony

Tony,

I have a big old reply for you on your penalty post and the rest of the penalties, but I think not today...or at least not now. I think today you are already bumming a bit so I'll save my post until tomorrow.

For today you have one assignment: do ONE thing that is playful fun. I do not know what playful fun for you, but I enjoy swinging, coloring, going to car shows, and going to dog shows for my own pure enjoyment. I like movies, and some days I pick gooey chick-flicks that no red-blooded male would ever enjoy (like YaYa Sisterhood). I like candlelit bubblebaths with Frank Sinatra in the CD. I like playing with my puppy. These things bring me joy and lift me a bit out of the duldrums.

What activity do you do that brings you joy?? Don't be afraid of joy, Tony. It's okay to be happy for a few brief minutes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Report back tomorrow (or tonight) on what you did for yourself. So far, I had a homemade peanut butter cookie...still warm! YUM!!!


CJ

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2plus2:
<strong> Incidentally, why is it some women are not able to reconcile? ...For a spouse that has been unfaithful, can there be so much guilt that it would prevent reconciliation? Can they forgive themselves and actually repent - have remorse and regret, and actually go on?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, 2p2, this is one of the topics that Java and I are going to get to at a later time...why some spouses are not able to reconcile. However, I will briefly say that it's my experience that often the reason people do not reconcile is pride. They are too proud to admit to themselves or others that the made a mistake, and so they back what they know to be a foolish and impossible decision rather than softening their heart. Eventually, they start to believe their own justifications and just CAN'T reconcile anymore.

On the other hand (OTOH), when a spouse has an affair and is willing to soften their heart and admit they made a mistake, often that marriage has a fairly good opportunity for recovery. Of course the BS also has to soften their heart and admit that they contributed too...but when the WS takes the lead and repents, the BS often has a desire to follow and repair the marriage.

Finally, there are some who just make up their mind and like a pitbull, they just refuse to let go of the jugular. With these people, I think it's a combination of FOO issues/midlife crisis and stubbornness...maybe some mental health/personality disorders. (Shrug)


CJ

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong> Tony,

I have a big old reply for you on your penalty post and the rest of the penalties, but I think not today...or at least not now. I think today you are already bumming a bit so I'll save my post until tomorrow.

For today you have one assignment: do ONE thing that is playful fun. I do not know what playful fun for you, but I enjoy swinging, coloring, going to car shows, and going to dog shows for my own pure enjoyment. I like movies, and some days I pick gooey chick-flicks that no red-blooded male would ever enjoy (like YaYa Sisterhood). I like candlelit bubblebaths with Frank Sinatra in the CD. I like playing with my puppy. These things bring me joy and lift me a bit out of the duldrums.

What activity do you do that brings you joy?? Don't be afraid of joy, Tony. It's okay to be happy for a few brief minutes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Report back tomorrow (or tonight) on what you did for yourself. So far, I had a homemade peanut butter cookie...still warm! YUM!!!


CJ </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">CJ,

I really want to be happy. So if you understand MY personality type, I really don't like things hanging up in the air.

I wish I could find joy. Right now, there really is nothing I want to do.

I went for about a 100 mile drive tonight. I like to drive. Played some Dave Matthews and drove.

Sad existance huh?

Tony

CJ et al.

The hardest part of all of this is that there is little I can do.

I feel like I'm not allowed to practice or demonstrate what I'm learning to my W. I know there were many things I did wrong, was insensitive about. However, my intent was never malicious.

What really frustrates me is to read about women who are attracted to men who appear to be complete cads. There is one WW I've read about here who is wandering to a PRISONER!!!

Well, the next court event is 20 April according to papers I got from my lawyer yesterday.

I'm off to church.

I need to work on patience as mine is really wearing thin. I certainly don't have enough to do to keep me occupied <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Tony

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:
I really want to be happy. So if you understand MY personality type, I really don't like things hanging up in the air. ...I wish I could find joy. Right now, there really is nothing I want to do. ...I went for about a 100 mile drive tonight. I like to drive. Played some Dave Matthews and drove.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Java,

Actually I do have a small clue about your ESTJ personality type, since both my ex and my son are ESTJ's. I know with both my men, I need to encourage them to do something fun, because they are very goal-oriented or task-oriented. So with them I try to get them to think of something they enjoy--they complain and whine that there's not anything they like to do--and then they go do whatever it is and have a pretty good time!

I'm glad you took a drive. Like you, I enjoy just driving a lot. Somehow it's soothing and comfortable, and I can usually think pretty clearly--I think the rhythm of the tires makes it easier for my Thinker tendencies to come out. Anyway, I also enjoy the scenery and knowing where the roads go, etc. Some nights, I just get on the freeway and DRIVE--other nights, I pick a road I haven't been on before and say, "I'm gonna see where this leads." I've found TONS of great shortcuts across Denver by doing that!

Anyway, I know what it's like to live alone and have things hanging up in the air. In some ways, having things undecided is even worse than just having it over with, and yes, in a way once a divorce is final there's the relief of knowing where you stand vs. being in limbo-land. Limbo-land always drove me nuts (well, nuttier--I was nuts before limbo-land! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). OTOH, in limbo-land there's hope and after the divorce is final it's less hopeful.

However, while I was in limbo-land, one of the things that I found myself doing was that I was afraid to be happy. Somehow it seems wrong or sacreligious or something to be happy while I was abandoned by my spouse. Does that make any sense? Almost like a person in mourning is "supposed" to act all sad and gloomy for a respectful period of time, I thought that if I felt joy it would somehow be disrespectful of the huge loss of my marriage.

This is why I encourage people to try a little fun. It feels odd to have fun and be happy when so much time has been spent feeling sad, lonely, and blue. It feels "wrong" to feel joy when your husband/wife is gone!! But I believe God wants us to be happy and feel joy, so let yourself feel a little bit of happiness and enjoyment. Practice some of the things that you used to just LIKE so much. Now what is fun to you is probably not fun to me...but if it makes your heart sings, that's what I'm talking about!

Now, Tony, just so you know, I won't leave you hanging. I have that big old post ready to go, and I'll put it up in just a minute.

Chin up, my brother.


CJ

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:
<strong> The hardest part of all of this is that there is little I can do.

I feel like I'm not allowed to practice or demonstrate what I'm learning to my W. I know there were many things I did wrong, was insensitive about. However, my intent was never malicious.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Java, did you realize that most of what you are learning is for you to practice on yourself, to make you the man God intended you to be? People often get the wrong idea that Plan A is being a doormat doing everything their spouse wants in order to meet the spouse's needs. Nope. Plan A is finding out who JAVA is, finding out the kind of man JAVA has the potential to be, finding out the kind of husband and father God intended you to be, and then BEING THAT MAN.

Correct me if I am wrong, but as we are going through the Penalty chapter here, your thought is to figure out what penalties you did (and it sounds like most of them) and then GO TELL HER you're sorry and you've changed. Right? Nope. The purpose of the Penalty chapter is all about YOU...getting honest with yourself and admitting to yourself that you actually did participate in the EA and break up. It's about seeking out within you, the areas that you need to work on and then WORKING ON THEM. It's not about telling her or somehow convincing her that you've changed, because frankly that's not a change--that's more of the same of being the "in control" "impatient" old Java.

I'm trying not to be too harsh here, but the work that needs to be done is not to prove to her...it's to transform you into the man you have the potential to be, and then if she is ready, she will SEE the difference just by the way you treat her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>What really frustrates me is to read about women who are attracted to men who appear to be complete cads. There is one WW I've read about here who is wandering to a PRISONER!!!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Haha! Well I'm going to giggle. I can't tell you how many times I heard this from my ex: "Gee what's your problem? I'm not so bad. After all, it's not like I go out drinking every night, come home drunk and beat you--or blow all our money on drugs and getting high! It's not like I'm a convict or anything." Can you believe it? He didn't go out drinking, and he didn't do drugs...that's true...but he DID have 13 affairs, was a sex addict who wouldn't even try recovery, and had a mental illness he would not deal with!

See, he spent so much time dwelling on how he WASN'T such a bad guy, that he could never quite soften his heart to see where he WAS having trouble. Now, I'm not a doctor or psychiatrist, but I do know that if he had worked on those issues, he really wasn't such a bad guy and I think the marriage and family could have chosen to stay together. Problem is, he would have had to admit it, and it probably would have been a lifelong struggle and required lifelong work.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Well, the next court event is 20 April according to papers I got from my lawyer yesterday. I'm off to church. I need to work on patience as mine is really wearing thin. I certainly don't have enough to do to keep me occupied. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let me tell you a cute story. For the longest time I used to pray to God for patience, and then I got sick of it. I realized that if I prayed for patience, He would send me situations that required it. So I decided to say, "God, I do not pray for any more patience. I believe I understand patience and I would prefer to not have to be patient any longer. Could you please teach me another lesson? Thank you." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Aren't I funny? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

April 20th is my birthday. Hmmmm...


CJ

CJ,

I really do hear what you are saying, but sometimes I think we are talking apples and oranges.

I'm not having an affair, nor did I have an affair. My "crime" is that I'm insensitive to feelings and driven by logic.

You said it very well, I'm goal oriented. I look at the destination, not the journey.

So I'm trying to understand WHY in this case, my wife is not willing to consider reconciliation???

I'm certainly not perfect, but I AM willing to learn.

I have ALWAYS been willing to learn and have acknowleged to W that we speak different languages, have different ideas about romance.

I've ALWAYS asked her to tell me and show me what it was she wanted.

She has told me that if I don't know what to do, then I must not have the feelings.

Of course, now she says she has no romantic feelings for me, nor does she want me to try to rekindle any sort of romance.

I understand (as best I can) why she feels this way. However, looking at it logically with regard to feelings, here are the scenarios as I see them.

1. Remain in marriage without change = hurt.
2. Get Divorced = Trade one hurt for another
3. Work on marriage = only chance of NOT hurting one another and the children.

She doesn't see #3 as possible and she is willing to take the chance that the hurt in #2 is minimized on her part. (However, she doesn't consider the hurt that I feel, at least from what I can see. She doesn't even acknowledge that this hurts me.)

Well, I just re-wired the stereo in the T-Bird. The "clown" that previously owned the car just threw it in there. Hey, even my power antenna sorta works now, but it is very slow going up.

It's a sunny day, so I think I'll go for another drive before evening services.

Tony

CJ,

Can you tell me when the next lesson will be?

I guess I don't get it yet. I spoke with W on the phone and she was upset that we talked and she got upset.

She says I have too many expectation. ( We were talking about me seeing our daughter. )

She mentioned she was having her own problems with SD and that she didn't have anyone to help.

I said I would like to help in anyway I could. Perhaps I should have just empathized. I dunno, I'm secondguessing everything I say. W brought up help and I said I was willing to help.

Probably sounds like I'm blaming her, and I guess in a way I was.

In hindsight, the best thing to say was that it must be tough, but you will figure out the right thing to do.

Why doesn't the Holy Spirit give me these words during the conversation and not an hour later <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Well, on the plus side, 6 months ago, these words wouldn't even have been in my mind, so there is some progress.

I'd just like microwave results. I know God can radically change me like I keep praying for. Sort of a Road to Damascus experience where Saul is radically transformed into Paul.

So I know it can be done. The heck with patience, I want God to make me into the man He wants me to be, NOW!

There I go again, focusing soley on the destination and not "enjoying" the journey.

Well, to be honest, this is not a fun journey and sometimes I want to wring James' neck. I really don't see the joy in my trials right now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">James 1:2-8
<strong>

Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tony

One more thing. I sent this in an e-mail to another MB'er, but I wanted to post my "logic" here as well:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally E-Mailed by jSC
<strong>
One more thing!

Thoughts I had folding laundry.

1. My logic appears to her as I'm disregarding (I.E. not valuing) her feelings. I guess that is true since I don't often consider them.
2. Presenting my logical view only ends up frustrating me as she doesn't subscribe to that same view.

Ergo, in this scenario, my logic does me more harm that good. (Other than helping me come to this conclusion)
Isn't it about time I came to this conclusion, it only took either 6 months since she moved out or 10+ years that I've known her.

Ok, so I see the value of trying to understand her feelings.

Now how do I do this? I have 38 years of exercising the mental muscle, but my soul is a bit atrophied. <-- I can't believe I spelled this right, the spell checker did not complain, LOL

Does God make Andro for the soul?

Tony
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Well,

I also figure out one way to get there.

SHUT MY MOUTH!!!

At least that way, I won't overpower her with logic. Now how do I keep my mouth shut AND get her to open up and begin to share with me what she is feeling?

I figure, if I'm listening for clues to how she is feeling, then I'm a bit more likely to pick up on it.

Listen right!

Of course there is that pesky matter of patience. Now that I've figured out these things, I want to put them into practice.

Well, I can practice on YD, and maybe even SD. I certainly have more contact with YD than with W.

Ok, my brain is cooked. Off to bed.

I'm planning to get up at 4AM, so I better start sleeping now, LOL

Tony

Good evening, Tony/Java.

Were you on-call? Here in Colorado it was sunny, warm, and beautiful, and I love living in the west because of days like this. BTW, off-topic a little, I wish all of you folks out there in MB-Land could see a Colorado day like this. It’s so clear and the sky is so blue…it just snowed two days ago, so the mountains are dressed in a delicate white. Seriously, days like this I just thank God that I live in a place where I have the privilege of seeing some of the most beautiful creation in the world—God’s handiwork is just SO evident in the mountains!

Well, let’s take a moment to sip some coffee and get started, shall we?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I’ve read and pondered your “Penalties” Tony, and I have one overall, general comment. As I was reading, I got the general feeling that almost all of the penalty answers were, “Guilty, but…”. Is this the message you were intending to get across, or were you trying to be honest with yourself about yourself and that’s hard? Or were you being honest with yourself yet also explaining how or why you behaved that way? Or were you maybe explaining to yourself whilst also typing “out loud”?

In a very general way, I personally usually do not find that explanations help soften the blow. When I’m hurting, it can maybe turn a gigantic hurt into a medium hurt, but frankly it usually sounds like justification to me, rather than doing any good or feeling any better. From a logical point of view, it sometimes does help to at least see the progression of how you got there—and then my mind sort of says, “Ahh…that’s what happened.” Nonetheless, this is a little bit like a person stabbing someone 3-4 times and then explaining how he or she logically thought the victim was a burglar. “Cool—I can see why you stabbed me—but could you please get me a band aide and an ambulance??” Speaking as a Feeler, render aide to the wounded first and THEN explain it to them.

BTW, just so you know, I just realized something literally as I was typing here. Initially I was going to say, “Speaking as a Feeler, fix it first and THEN…” and I realized that I MYSELF was not taking personal responsibility there. My own words were sort of reflecting that someone else fix my wound, and that’s not healthy. Yep—someone else may assist a lot and like a doctor would give me stitches, but in the end, I’m the one who has to heal, right? The doc can’t heal for me. Same applies here. You may inadvertently hurt your wife, and you have the choice to create an environment in which she can heal or not, but SHE has to do the healing and SHE has to choose to allow restoration. (In other words, if she’s the one who’s wounded, she can choose to forgive and heal it, or she can choose to keep that wound open and deny recovery).

Anyway…let’s get started on the Penalties:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 1. Recruiting. … It's competitive, adversarial, taking sides. It may feel like you are stealing someone important to her. Many times, I heard her say she didn't even want me to TALK to her family. She has a great fear that I would try to recruit them.

I did talk to them, but I think I dodged actually recruiting them. I said I understood that they needed to be there for L, and I just wanted them to know that I was sorry for hurting her, that I didn't really understand what I had done, but never wanted to hurt her, nor did I realize that I was so insensitive.

However, even that upset her, …so I try to avoid her family as much as possible.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tony, it sounds like that doesn’t make sense to you. Here’s why that upset her. She established a boundary and said, “My boundary is around my family. Do not cross this boundary” and you did. Without saying a word, this says to her that you do not respect the limits and restrictions that she says she needs. Even though your words to her family were gentle and understanding, the action itself communicated that you did not care about what limits she said she needed, and you trampled all over her limit. A few options that might have worked better would be “I hear you saying you don’t want me to even talk to your family, but I would like them to know that I realize they are going to be there for you, and all these years I did not understand how much I was hurting you 1) HOWEVER, since your limit is not to talk to them, I will respect your wishes. Would it be okay if I write to them?” or 2) HOWEVER, I will respect your wishes because getting understanding from you is much more important than getting understanding from them.” Or 3) HOWEVER, if you need me to not talk to your family in order to have some space from me, I will respect it.”

Do you see, Tony?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 2. Blaming Well that's hard not to do. I mean she went out and had at least an EA if not more. She didn't tell me in a way I understood how she felt… But, since I can only fix myself, I should only blame myself. This one is really the hardest to overcome for me, because if I think too much about what has happened, then I really think divorce is the right answer. …This is one of my daily prayers, that I can really forgive her, and not hold this against her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, you are right about one thing. It really is hard to not blame. It’s so much easier to say, “Well, since my spouse had an affair and has mental health issues and unresolved FOO issues from her past and refuses to address them, it’s not MY FAULT.” However, we are commanded to live in faith, and faith makes things POSSIBLE, not EASY. We have to face the tough facts here.

I suspect you may not want to understand this right now, but your wife had an EA for a reason. This isn’t the blame game, Tony, it’s reality. I had a temptation to have an affair once, and at the time I felt AWFUL about it—and now I think it happened so I could at least sympathize with the WS’s and not think of them as selfish monsters. My H at the time had moved out of state and was living with his OW and her 4 kids. For YEARS prior to that, my H had blamed me for all that was wrong with the family, the kids, and our lives…he called me names, gave me the silent treatment to punish me, was demanding and controlling, and at times he was abusive. Now, I’m not blaming—I’m telling you all this because I am a VERY, VERY monogamous person and my mind and desire did not wander from him…and yet my head was really down on myself and I truly believed most of his blame and criticism. Along came a fella—yep a man—who told me he thought I was smart and had a great sense of humor and was fun to talk to. Who, ME?? * I * was smart? You’ve got to be kidding! I couldn’t believe it that someone actually enjoyed my company and thought I had something to contribute. When we would talk or write, he spoke to me as if I was intelligent and interesting—my H at the time spoke to me like he could not beeeeeelieeeeeeve how stupid I was, I never used ANY common sense, and I was boring and mind-numbing. Thank God I realized in time where I was heading if I kept talking to that man, but nonetheless I am a VERY faithful person and even * I * almost fell for it.

My point here Tony is that blame is usually one tactic that people take in order to avoid looking at themselves. I didn’t realize until after this fella spoke to me, how my H was speaking to me –or- (more importantly) how I was speaking to him. We had fallen into the habit of speaking to each other critically and judgmentally, and probably without meaning to, had ended up hurting each other and falling out of love. Sound familiar?

Tony, you can’t blame her for her EA weakness, because part of what crumbled the foundation was you. Let me guess (and I admit…I am guessing here): long hours working—career was IMPORTANT after all; little or no time alone together having fun; maybe kids take away even more time; when you were together, it was criticizing and arguing, not fun and playing; she didn’t want to do things with you, and you didn’t want to do things with her; she did not admire you so you did not appreciate her; etc. Am I on the right track??

As you think of blame and forgiveness, please keep your focus purely and exclusively on you and how you contributed. She may have done XYZ and chosen ABC, but there were ways that you added fuel to the fire—maybe inadvertently. And btw, I’m not trying to make you feel bad here—I am confident you feel bad already. What I AM trying to do is to take a look at yourself and be honest with yourself and maybe get a glimpse of how it looks through Feeler-colored glasses. My exH actually DID some things and CHOSE some things that contributed to the ending of our marriage, but those are his bags to carry. My job—and YOUR job—is to look at my own self, repent and repair for the things I did, and learn to do better. I can’t “make” him get better, but I can focus on myself and on what God needs to change in me. Hey, maybe we will NEVER, EVER get back together (in fact, I doubt it at this time), but that does not preclude me from becoming a better woman, nor does it give me reason to not become the woman God intended me to be. God gave me the potential to be a warm, wonderful, mature woman, and that’s who I should become whether I’m with him or not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 3. Critical Spirit Well, I'm guilty here too. I mentioned in another thread about how I tend to be critical…Criticism if overdone makes anyone feel bad, and since I believe W to be an INFP, criticism is even more dangerous. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, since my other replies have been so long, I think I’ll keep this one as short as I can. You have no idea how much criticism can harm an INFP. Now as an INFP, I’m not saying we can’t take constructive criticism, but my own tendency is to take a criticism PERSONALLY. Thus, when I try really hard to make a tasty roast dinner and overcook the roast just a little (it’s still tasty and edible but a little dry), a comment about how dry the roast is could be dangerous.

See if you can see the distinction:

“Oh, honey, that was a good dinner. The roast is a little more dry than I personally prefer, but that gravy you made just moistens it right up and gives it the best flavor!”

“Oh, honey, that was a good dinner, but the roast was too dry.”

“Oh, honey, good god. How hard is it to watch the clock and get the roast out at the right time so it doesn’t dry out?”

In the instance where a criticism is requested, or if a criticism is necessary for open and honest communication, try to remember before you say it that your wife is a delicate butterfly and you are a buffalo about to throw a small pebble at her. If you toss it gently, it may knock her over but not rip through her wing—but if you throw it with any force at all—you’re a buffalo! It will rip through her like she’s not even there! My guess is that the difference of force to a buffalo is pretty undetectable—but the difference of force to the butterfly is ENORMOUS.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 4. Being impatient. W mentioned many times that I didn't give her enough space. Gee, she has her own apartment, etc. and she still felt like she didn't have enough space. Well, my desire to "fix" the problem certainly overrode all the advice about being patient.

Besides patience is one of the fruits of the spirit, so if I'm acting impatiently, then I'm probably not in the right frame of mind or I'm not responding to the Holy Spirit, but the unHoly Spirit. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, my brother Tony, “space” does not mean cubic inches of unfilled air between us. “Space” means the freedom to think her own thoughts and be the woman she is, in an environment that is safe and supportive. You two could live with each other and have tons of “space” or you could live states apart and still not have enough “space.” It has to do with feeling squelched and controlled, and it has to do with feeling like she’s not allowed to make decisions for herself or BE herself.

Let me give you a concrete example. I live with my children and I have plenty of space with them. I can be a crazy, funny, happy-go-lucky person with them, and if I goof up they laugh and say “oh well!” I feel completely safe to be myself and I won’t be ridiculed. I make decisions about our lives and about myself, and even when my kids disagree with me, they ask me if I can explain my reasoning and then say, “I disagree but I understand why you feel that way.” I do NOT live with my exH and have not for about 2 years now. I can not be who I am with him, because if I make one mistake, he believes he has the right and duty to chastise me in front of everyone. If I goof up, I am teased for days. When I make decisions about my life or the kids’ lives, he second-guesses me and belittles my decision. If we disagree, I am forced to agree with him or else… See, I don’t live with the man, but I have no space from him. (Plus he has no desire to “fix” things between us, so it’s quite different from your situation).

Tony, being patient is important because it communicates several things: 1) I’m willing to let you call the shots. 2) We can work on YOUR timeframe not mine. 3) I will let you control things in this regard. 4) You are valuable enough to wait for. 5) I do not need instant gratification. 6) You have some say in your own life.

I bet you didn’t know it said all that, did ya??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 5. Setting a Time Frame Well, I sorta did this saying how long I wanted to plan A before moving to a plan B. But I don't think I expressed this to her. However, setting a time frame does little for my mind and soul.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The “setting a time frame” penalty is a little more like: “You should trust me by now. It’s been long enough. Now you’re just punishing me,” or “You should have been able to find yourself by now. How much longer do you need, for crying out loud?” or “You have until next week and then I divorcing you.” It’s inflicting YOUR timing onto your partner. In this penalty, the usual thing that most men miss or misunderstand is that the greater the hurt, the longer the time it takes to heal. In other words, if you were to make the conscientious decision today to stop hurting her and give her time to heal, it might take a few months or a year of NOT BEING HURT. If you accidentally add hurt along the way, it can be a setback. Trust is a major issue—the relationship needs security.

May I be completely blunt here? I wish my exH had any kind of desire to stop hurting me and give me the time I need to heal. Your wife may not know it, but she’s SO LUCKY—you want to stop, you just don’t understand what you’re doing. So, if she says she needs space and time, give her space and time. The way I look at it, this is a marriage for life, right? If people live to 80 and were married when they’re 20, that means a 60 YEAR INVESTMENT. What’s a few months or even a year to let her know she’s loved and give her time to heal?

By the same token, I wanted to commend you for even considering a time frame for your Plan A and Plan B. At the time, I never even thought to consider a time frame, and before I knew it years had gone by. It was one of my regrets, that I didn’t decide within myself what was right and set a limit. So good for you that you have established that time frame! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 6. Displaying Affection No opportunity. I've not touched W much at all since Sep 6th. I may have touched her shoulder, but certainly no hugs, no kisses, nothing. I'm sure that would make her uncomfortable. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay—so since this does not seem to be a penalty you are committing, for now let’s go past it. I will comment that I notice it is an issue for you, but that’s another post.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 7. Overkilling Yes, when I started doing the things she said she wanted me to do, she said it annoyed her because it was like "Why Now?"

Well, I wanted to show her what I was capable of doing. However, to my own credit, when she said it bothered her, I stopped. So I can be sensitive if I understand how she feels, and to be honest, I was following the advice of Steve Harley who counseled me to see what I could do. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tony do you see something? It sounds to me as if you immediately were defending why it was okay for you to do this penalty…Steve Harley told you to. Just consider that for a bit and see what you think.

She asked you for a long time to please bring her flowers or something, and you blew her off and didn’t do it. It took too much time, cost too much money, etc. But NOT doing those little things that she clearly told you out loud, you communicated that she was not important—what she needed was not important. So finally, she gave up. In her mind, if she wasn’t important to you, then she’d go somewhere where she WAS important. THEN you started to do the things that she asked and asked and asked you to do, and she thought, “You had your chance buddy and you dismissed me. Why should I take your flowers now? When I needed them, you told me tough!” Why now?? Why didn’t you do this when she needed it for a pick-me-up or encouragement or reassurance? Because you didn’t care. So why should she care now? That door to her heart is closed now, and she wanted to give you the key and leave it open, but didn’t care so now it’s LOCKED!!

I’m sorry, my friend. I know this is harsh, but part of the process here is being honest and not avoiding what is really happening.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">8. Underestimating Hurt Guilty, since I'm not a feeling kinda guy, I have no idea how much she hurts. In my defense, I'd like to say if I did know she was hurting months or years before she moved out, I would have been more than willing to address those things.

I underestimated her hurt during our entire relationship. I had no idea. …

Whoops, sounds like I'm blaming her. No, not really…well, I still think I might have had a better chance at understand how she felt if we had this time together on a daily basis. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 9. Boundaries, I don't even know if I could express her boundaries. If I don't know them, it's hard for me to respect them, now isn't it? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, at times I wonder if I should even point out what I see or hear. I’m trying really hard to be sensitive here, but it just feels to me as if over and over again she TOLD you and even used her voice to say things out loud, and yet you chose to ignore it or dismiss it or put it out of your mind—and then you say, “She never said anything!!!”

Not to pile it on, but she gave you a LOT of info!! She told you not to talk to her family, and you disrespected her boundary and her. You were critical and she asked you to stop and you disrespected her way of doing things. You were impatient and wanting things to hurry up to your schedule, and she asked you to give her some “space” and you disrespected her time frame and her. She did not want you to display affection and had to move away from you so that you wouldn’t hug or kiss her, and you sure resent that she took that away from you. She told you she needed flowers (or whatever it was) and you ignored her and didn’t care—and then when she gave up and locked that door…THEN you started to give her what she needed because you were feeling the loss. When it was only HER feeling the pain, you didn’t care. She asked for the flowers and you disrespected her need. Even now she has told you that she’s not sure if she could ever re-commit to the marriage again, and you are pushing for DAILY TIME TOGETHER to prove how much you’ve changed!!

OUCH. I’m so sorry to have to say these things to you. I know today is already a hurting day for you so I’m going to stop. But I pray that you’ll take a moment and soften your heart and put your defenses down and consider before God if this is what He was trying to say to you today. The reason we are studying penalties here is to INVESTIGATE and find out what it was that caused us to lose yardage in our marriages, remember? We can’t get a handle on the penalty if we don’t admit that we do it. Tony, I know she never hit you over the head with a frypan to get your attention and tell you she was hurting (a much easier sign to read) but she DID try!

I think a big part of the puzzle here is that your wife feels invalidated—she’s not allowed to be a unique person complete with needs and wants that she deserves to have met too. Invalidation occurs when you talk to her like a child, flare up in jealousy, rage at her, restrict her freedom…pout, sulk, withdraw, or give her “the silent treatment.”

Rather than defending yourself and why you were right to commit these penalties, listen to your wife’s pain and hear with your heart. Ask her if she would be willing to list the ways you have hurt her, neglected her, abused her, and how she felt unappreciated and unloved. She probably won’t be willing to make the list, but if she did, she’d be giving you a HUGE, HUGE gift!! It would a list that would itemize for you where you would need to do personal work to make things right with her.

Well, my friend, I have spent almost all day with you. Now, I’m going to give myself a break and think on lighter things (like a peanut butter cookie and some cold milk). Please consider what I’ve said and let me know what you decide.

Your true and faithful friend,


CJ

CJ,

I was just saying why I did what I did, not that what I did was right.

You did want to hear the logic that drove my actions, right?

You have done an excellent job of telling me what I did wrong.

The hard part is how do I change those things? You've read my writings before, even what happened tonight. So how do I realize BEFORE I do one of these "horrible" things not to do them.

My "logic" tells me they are not wrong, so I need new logic, an yes I'm impatient to have it now.

I don't see in anything I've read HOW to reprogram myself for these situations.

For example, you mentioned that I was competing with SD. I never thought of it that way, but yes there was an element of that. I felt that she put SD before me, even after talking about this and we both agreed that we had to put each other before any other person on earth, including our children, as we would be with each other after the children were gone.

Anyway, so HOW do I do these things, and I am SERIOUS. It is obvious that I just don't get it, and I have not yet found how to make these changes. You are asking me to change things that:

a) I don't truely understand.
b) That I don't truely realize I do.
c) That I've done for 38 years give or take.

I'm not saying I'm unwilling. What I'm saying is, I don't know how.

I've been telling myself for 6 months to consider her feelings. I'm still as oblivious as ever.

I appreciate the feedback on the feelings and I do believe you are right on. I've prayed, tried to work with Steve Harley, I'm working with a local therapist, I've been to see my pastor, asked my one true friend to role play with me. (he is dubious, BTW.)

So I've not found the way to get there yet.

I don't want this to sound like I don't believe you, because I do. The message I'd like you to take away from this is I don't know how to change, how to suspend my heavy reliance on logic.

I'll read your message again in a few hours. I just got up in the night and checked. So this is my first look at what you wrote while in my PJ's and without my glasses, LOL

Tony

<small>[ March 08, 2004, 02:26 AM: Message edited by: javaSansContour ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Rather than defending yourself and why you were right to commit these penalties, listen to your wife’s pain and hear with your heart. Ask her if she would be willing to list the ways you have hurt her, neglected her, abused her, and how she felt unappreciated and unloved. She probably won’t be willing to make the list, but if she did, she’d be giving you a HUGE, HUGE gift!! It would a list that would itemize for you where you would need to do personal work to make things right with her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I already have, months ago, back in September before she even left, and for some time after she left, and she is not willing, as you suggested.

Tony

<small>[ March 08, 2004, 02:34 AM: Message edited by: javaSansContour ]</small>

Tony,

First the image of you in your PJs reading without your glasses on is hilarious. Do you hold the flat screen out at arm's length to read it? heehee. Oh the joys of growing older!

Anyway, in quick summary answer to your agonizing questions, I would have to say that this is STEP ONE...there are more steps to come. The first part of changing is realizing that you have to change, and sort of itemizing where things went wrong. This first step really is rather agonizing because when you really look at yourself and all the ways you contributed to harming your own marriage, it's devastating.

Tony, don't feel guilty and don't feel overwhelmed. But mostly don't feel like you have to stop being a Thinker and become a Feeler. You just don't. In case you missed it buddy, you are made in God's image and you are fearfully and wonderfully made. You are awesome as an ESTJ and that is who you are intended to be...you are created to be a THINKER.

What you are proposing is the rough equivalent to saying, "Why doesn't she just change to logical, rational thought processes? How can she become more analytical and evaluate more efficiently?" GEE, she's not CREATED to think via logic or analyze via data. Neither are you created to be a smooshy Feeler!

Soooo..., step one is just a way of checking in with yourself and seeing if you can see it from her point of view a little and admitting how some of your Thinker tendencies might hurt/harm a Feeler. Step TWO is "How to Open a Closed Heart", right? See, Tony, she didn't marry you because she thought you were a romance novel hero or an emotional poet type. She married you because your yin balanced her yang--your logic balanced her emotions--you balanced HER. Step one is seeing, analyzing, itemizing where things got off track and stretching yourself a bit to see it from her point of view, without defending or justifying.

So, I would suggest you re-read over what I wrote, remembering that it's not a "pick on Tony" thing but rather a "this is how it would feel to a Feeler" thing. See if you can gain some understanding, and maybe even begin a list of specific things you've done that you want to itemize. If your wife will not make the list for you of how you have wronged her, harmed her, abused her, neglected her, etc. you can make the list for yourself. If you have trouble with it, I'll help you.

Tony, I hear what you're saying. I hear it in your posts that you feel desperate and hopeless. Work the plan, okay??


CJ

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong> Tony,

First the image of you in your PJs reading without your glasses on is hilarious. Do you hold the flat screen out at arm's length to read it? heehee. Oh the joys of growing older!

Anyway, in quick summary answer to your agonizing questions, I would have to say that this is STEP ONE...there are more steps to come. The first part of changing is realizing that you have to change, and sort of itemizing where things went wrong. This first step really is rather agonizing because when you really look at yourself and all the ways you contributed to harming your own marriage, it's devastating.

Tony, don't feel guilty and don't feel overwhelmed. But mostly don't feel like you have to stop being a Thinker and become a Feeler. You just don't. In case you missed it buddy, you are made in God's image and you are fearfully and wonderfully made. You are awesome as an ESTJ and that is who you are intended to be...you are created to be a THINKER.

What you are proposing is the rough equivalent to saying, "Why doesn't she just change to logical, rational thought processes? How can she become more analytical and evaluate more efficiently?" GEE, she's not CREATED to think via logic or analyze via data. Neither are you created to be a smooshy Feeler!

Soooo..., step one is just a way of checking in with yourself and seeing if you can see it from her point of view a little and admitting how some of your Thinker tendencies might hurt/harm a Feeler. Step TWO is "How to Open a Closed Heart", right? See, Tony, she didn't marry you because she thought you were a romance novel hero or an emotional poet type. She married you because your yin balanced her yang--your logic balanced her emotions--you balanced HER. Step one is seeing, analyzing, itemizing where things got off track and stretching yourself a bit to see it from her point of view, without defending or justifying.

So, I would suggest you re-read over what I wrote, remembering that it's not a "pick on Tony" thing but rather a "this is how it would feel to a Feeler" thing. See if you can gain some understanding, and maybe even begin a list of specific things you've done that you want to itemize. If your wife will not make the list for you of how you have wronged her, harmed her, abused her, neglected her, etc. you can make the list for yourself. If you have trouble with it, I'll help you.

Tony, I hear what you're saying. I hear it in your posts that you feel desperate and hopeless. Work the plan, okay??


CJ </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">CJ,

First, I wasn't saying I wanted to give up being a thinker, but rather know when and how to be a feeler when it is more appropriate to focus on those things.

Like I said, thinking is great for my job, so I don't really want to lose those talents.

Being a thinker, almost exclusively, has destroyed or nearly destroyed every one of my relationships. I'm not even that close with my mother.

So I'm not saying I want to perform a wholesale overhaul of my personality. Rather, I just want to be able to appreciate and understand the feeler.

I guess neither of us can sleep. I do have my glasses on now, and no I don't own a flat screen. (I'm too cheap!)

Ok, why can't I sleep? Because I'm a thinker, and there are a million thoughts running through my head right now.

So, not to dismiss what you are saying, but I've just realized something. It's a parallel event in my life, but it provides me with some insight.

You know I went on a couple of drives this weekend. Actually three, I went for a drive Friday night as well after SD wouldn't let me see YD.

What I just noticed this morning is that when I drive just to drive, I don't get frustrated. Now maybe it is because there isn't much traffic as I like to do these things on the weekend. However, when I do have to be somewhere, and before you say just leave earlier, it's almost impossible to leave for a customer site BEFORE the pager goes off. So yes, I'm talking about a trip in response to a page and the time pressure to arrive, meeting a response window. I get stressed big time when there is a set destination and time target.

Ok, what does that mean? It means I'm probably not at my best, not my most attractive when I'm under that kind of pressure.

So I go back to James.

How do I find the joy in these trials?

Ironically, it seems to me all of this stuff is focused on the destination. Dr Harley's books focus on you stopping LB's, but nothing about HOW to get there.

Same thing with the understanding the mind of a woman book. Not a single thing that helps me understand the mind of a woman. A lot of rationale why it is important. But it says become more Christlike, and yet no plan on how to do that either.

Combine this with either my inability to pay attention to, or the unwillingness of the Holy Spirit to show me the way at this time and I'm frustrated.

(And why do I have more questions than answers?)

Ok, I want to sleep now for a couple of more hours. I'm throwing some laundry in the dryer to get it 1/2 dry and will finish it when I get up for real to shower etc.

While I can function on 4 hours of sleep. I'd like a couple more...

Tony

<small>[ March 08, 2004, 03:39 AM: Message edited by: javaSansContour ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong> Tony,


Anyway, in quick summary answer to your agonizing questions, I would have to say that this is STEP ONE...there are more steps to come. The first part of changing is realizing that you have to change, and sort of itemizing where things went wrong. This first step really is rather agonizing because when you really look at yourself and all the ways you contributed to harming your own marriage, it's devastating.

Tony, don't feel guilty and don't feel overwhelmed. But mostly don't feel like you have to stop being a Thinker and become a Feeler. You just don't. In case you missed it buddy, you are made in God's image and you are fearfully and wonderfully made. You are awesome as an ESTJ and that is who you are intended to be...you are created to be a THINKER.

What you are proposing is the rough equivalent to saying, "Why doesn't she just change to logical, rational thought processes? How can she become more analytical and evaluate more efficiently?" GEE, she's not CREATED to think via logic or analyze via data. Neither are you created to be a smooshy Feeler!

Soooo..., step one is just a way of checking in with yourself and seeing if you can see it from her point of view a little and admitting how some of your Thinker tendencies might hurt/harm a Feeler. Step TWO is "How to Open a Closed Heart", right? See, Tony, she didn't marry you because she thought you were a romance novel hero or an emotional poet type. She married you because your yin balanced her yang--your logic balanced her emotions--you balanced HER. Step one is seeing, analyzing, itemizing where things got off track and stretching yourself a bit to see it from her point of view, without defending or justifying.

So, I would suggest you re-read over what I wrote, remembering that it's not a "pick on Tony" thing but rather a "this is how it would feel to a Feeler" thing. See if you can gain some understanding, and maybe even begin a list of specific things you've done that you want to itemize. If your wife will not make the list for you of how you have wronged her, harmed her, abused her, neglected her, etc. you can make the list for yourself. If you have trouble with it, I'll help you.

Tony, I hear what you're saying. I hear it in your posts that you feel desperate and hopeless. Work the plan, okay??


CJ </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It would probably be easier if I made a list of what I did right. It seems I did everything wrong.

A) I kept a good job the whole time
B) I didn't drink away my paycheck
C) I didn't have any affairs
D) I didn't beat the wife or kiddos

Ok, that about covers it. I did everything else wrong. Or at least I feel that way.

CJ, I know what you are doing and I do appreciate it. I've been at this step ONE for 6+ months.

I'd really like to move to a new step.

Tony

Well, I've had a frustrating day at work, no real progress in 6 months of trying to win my wife back.

Nor am I happy with my progress either. In fact, I'm still impatient.

So I'm going to work out and try to sweat out some of this frustration.

Will someone either provide me with the solution or just solve all of these problems for me so I can have a happy, healthy reunited family and marriage.

Maybe if I do 50 pushups everytime I get frustrated about the destruction of my marriage and my inability to win my wife back (or even to understand her) I'll have some huge arms or learn not to be so frustrated, LOL

I really am seeking God's will and his plan in all of this. I just find it frustrating that I have failed so miserably up to this point.

I am not used to failure!

Tony

Greetings my struggling brother.

I have a few quick things to let you know:
#1 – When I was young, I used to be a gymnast, and I fell off the balance beam and really hurt my back. Today it’s aching, so when my back hurts, I don’t think as clearly, quickly, or logically. Please give me a little bit of a break today, okay??

#2 – When you write over and over again about wanting microwave results and wanting immediate time with her and being frustrated because she won’t even consider reconciliation, I think you are really pushing for your own way RIGHT NOW, and I feel very pressured. It’s somewhat similar to the feeling of one person with a life jacket and everyone else who doesn’t have one clinging to them and pulling them under. So, whilst I understand your desperation and extreme anxiety, I’m going to ask you to back off a little—-and to me, that means mellow out the tone of your posts from a command or requirement for instantaneous results to recognizing that it’s going to take time…that your wife may have her mind made up…and that while I may help you to understand better, it is conceivable it may not save your marriage.

Now, let’s get down to the meat of some of your posts.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> …I'm not having an affair, nor did I have an affair. My "crime" is that I'm insensitive to feelings and driven by logic. …You said it very well, I'm goal oriented. I look at the destination, not the journey. …So I'm trying to understand WHY in this case, my wife is not willing to consider reconciliation???</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As you know, I do not consider being driven by logic a crime—-any more than I consider it a crime to be driven by emotions. It is not “wrong” just different. BUT…if I could put 2 and 2 together, are you trying to say, “Hey, it’s not like I’m the one who had an affair here! All I did was be insensitive”? Is that close?

Tony, I think that’s your heart talking—-you’re saying stuff out of hurt there, and so I’m going to choose to bypass the glaring LB-style of this. You are HURT so you are doing a little hurting back by flinging the affair out there. It’s understandable, but that kind of verbal zing is JUST the kind of thing that caused little hurts over the years that added up to huge hurts.

I understand that you are goal-oriented, but a logical fella like you should understand that if you do step one, skip steps two and three, and do only step four to get to the goal quicker, then the integrity of the goal is compromised. So, you are here: “90% thinking with my head/10% feeling with my heart” and you’d like to be here: “70% thinking with my head /30% feeling with my heart.” How do you go from one place to the other? What might be some logical steps to take? What might be some exercises you could do to get more in touch with your feelings and more in touch with empathy?

Speaking for myself, I was about 90% Feeler/10% Thinker and I wanted to be more Thinker, so I did training exercises to TEACH myself to think more logically. I made lists; I wrote down goals and broke them down into steps to get there; I read about philosophy and quantum physics to see if I could follow the thought and logic; etc. As much as possible, I tried to engage my MIND in order to grow that muscle. You do the same thing here but in reverse, Tony. Every day, learn a new word for a feeling and learn about that feeling. If you have more emotional vocabulary than “angry, frustrated, pissed, and happy” you will be better able to identify when you do have a feeling. Write down emotional goals and break them down into steps to get there—like you want to check in with yourself once each hour and see how you’re feeling AT THAT MOMENT, and you want to do that check in every day for two weeks so you become more aware of your feelings. Read some books about feelings, emotions, etc. and see if you can identify what do you need to do to empathize? Keep a diary of your emotions and when they change, noting date, time of day, and some surrounding circumstances and see if you can see a pattern (for example, I noticed that when I do not get adequate sleep, I tend to be more grouchy, angry, touchy, and improperly sensitive-—whereas when I take care of myself and get good sleep, I’m more able and available to be thoughtful and sympathetic). FINALLY, when I noticed myself getting into an emotional whirlwind (as is my nature) I just recognized that I needed to take some time to let the whirlwind die down and then I’d be able to THINK—-you may need to do something similar. When you get into a particularly logical mode from work, you may need some time to let the logic-mode subside and re-engage your feelings.

As to why you wife will not even consider reconciliation, you know each INFP woman is different, but my guess would be that she’s afraid to try again and have it not work out. She possibly is afraid that if she trusts you one more time, that things will go back to the way they always were and she will get hurt again—-so for her, it’s easier to close and lock the door to her heart.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I've ALWAYS asked her to tell me and show me what it was she wanted. …She has told me that if I don't know what to do, then I must not have the feelings. …Of course, now she says she has no romantic feelings for me, nor does she want me to try to rekindle any sort of romance.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmm…asking her to tell you and show you what she wants it the rough equivalent of her saying to you, “Explain to me your exact thought processes on every decision and choice you’ve made today—-including data consider, the model used, and the result.” Okay, at first you might be able to do it because it would be kind of fun to share your Thinker moments with your wife—-but after a few weeks or months of it, you’d get tired. Same here. At some point, if you were sharing your data gathered, model used, and calculation results, you might hope that your wife would catch on and start at least seeing the pattern to HOW you think—and she probably figures that if she explained to you what to say and what to do, that eventually you would start to catch on to how she feels. Unfortunately, Feelers take different data into consideration in almost every instance, so that Thinkers can rarely if ever make a static model from which they can always (or even USUALLY) reach the correct conclusion. So what happens is that the Thinker puts in the known/obvious facts—-puts it into the “if/then” model that they’ve built, and the Thinker comes to a conclusion; meanwhile the Feeler puts in the known/obvious facts and the intuitively understood truths—-filters it all through intuition and perceptions-—and comes to an entirely different conclusion but wonders what in the world is wrong with the Thinker!! Furthermore, the Feeler often incorrectly assumes that if the Thinker can’t reach the same conclusion and consider all the variables, then the Thinker must not FEEL love or romance or whatever.

BTW, she says she does not have romantic feelings for you because her love bank is empty, and she does not want to rekindle romance for the reasons mentioned above. She possibly is afraid that if she trusts you one more time, that things will go back to the way they always were and she will get hurt again-—so for her, it’s easier to close and lock the door to her heart.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I understand (as best I can) why she feels this way. However, looking at it logically with regard to feelings, here are the scenarios as I see them.

1. Remain in marriage without change = hurt.
2. Get Divorced = Trade one hurt for another
3. Work on marriage = only chance of NOT hurting one another and the children.

She doesn't see #3 as possible and she is willing to take the chance that the hurt in #2 is minimized on her part. (However, she doesn't consider the hurt that I feel, at least from what I can see. She doesn't even acknowledge that this hurts me.)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, here’s some of your little Thinker logic sticking it’s head out now! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Tony, your arguments and persuasions make a lot of logical sense, but very little emotional sense. To her, the choices are more like:

1. Remain in marriage without change and die from the pain and lose myself completely
2. Get divorced and hurt now, but be free to be myself later
3. Work on marriage and risk my heart and continue to let myself be hurt.

As far as not considering that it hurts you, I would counter with this: for years she did try to communicate in her Feeler way that you were hurting her—-but you are a buffalo and did not even notice what she (the butterfly) was saying. For years you did not seem to consider the hurt that she felt, so now she does not acknowledge the hurt that you feel. Working on the marriage to her means returning to the person with whom she has associated pain and agony and sorrow. Nothing personal my man, but who would WANT to return to that?? In many ways, I’m proud of her for standing up for herself and protecting herself. In many ways, I admire her ability to hurt some now in order to be free and unhurt later. Can you see that as an admirable and compelling trait? Your wife, she is QUITE a strong woman!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> … I guess I don't get it yet. I spoke with W on the phone and she was upset that we talked and she got upset. …She says I have too many expectations. (We were talking about me seeing our daughter.) … She mentioned she was having her own problems with SD and that she didn't have anyone to help. … I said I would like to help in anyway I could. Perhaps I should have just empathized. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tony, stop and think a second—-when you called her was it during a time when she told you not to call (as in, it’s inconvenient for her)? Was it later or early or right at a meal time? Did you push her to have a “relationship talk” or did she mildly object to the call and you drove right over her objection? I do not know the circumstances of your call, but these are some typical, representative things that can occur that might upset your wife.

As relates to seeing your D, it would probably be best if you two could have a regular schedule with SOME flexibility. This is good for you and your wife because you can plan your lives, and it is good for your D because she knows when she will be where, and when she will be with which parent. Tony, she NEEDS to have you in her life, so even if your wife hardens her heart and divorces you, do not get depressed and slow down regular time with your daughter. She NEEDS to have a relationship with her father even if her mom does not want to.

HOWEVER, I will mention that just in reading your posts once or twice, I’ve noticed that you stop over and want to see YD, or feel lonely and want to see D. That kind of dropping by and sudden change of schedule only leads to hurt and misunderstanding. If she lets you see YD and D, then you are disrupting her life and disrespecting her schedule, and resentment will build. OTOH, if she doesn’t let you see YD and D, then you are hurt. It’s like you expect her to just bend to your needs and your wavering wishes. So, that’s what she means when she says you have too many expectations.

One thing I TOTALLY understand and empathize with is your wife’s statement about having trouble with SD and having no one to help. She was not trying to manipulate you into helping her-—she was feeling overwhelmed. I don’t know SD’s age, but as the kids get older, there are times when they are just a HANDFUL. When you’re married, you have a partner sharing your life who can take over for a little while when you get overwhelmed. When you’re alone, every situation must be dealt with BY YOU and there is no relief and no reinforcement. Plus, kids are smart as a whip, and when they see a crack or break in mom’s armor, they go right for it and pick, pick, pick. There are times when you just want to cry out to someone: “AARRGGHH!!! I’m doing this alone!! I can’t do this anymore-—I’m exhausted and they won’t let up.” Sometimes there are behavior issues, school issues, friend issues, etc. and it seems like every bit of your energy goes into your kids.

If you say, “Boy that sounds tough-—what can I do?” be prepared to here a pretty snappy response, like “Pay your child support on time, you a$$!” You might want to try REPS: (R)esponsibility, (E)mpathy, (P)lan, (S)afety. When she says she is having her own problems with SD and she doesn’t have anyone to help, you might say: “I’m so sorry that you are in the position of raising SD alone because of the way I treated you. I bet that’s really hard on you and exhausting. Would it help if I watch the kids one night a week every Wednesday to give you a day off? Whatever YOU decide you need in order to feel supported in this, I will be happy to offer.”

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I'd just like microwave results. I know God can radically change me like I keep praying for. Sort of a Road to Damascus experience where Saul is radically transformed into Paul. … So I know it can be done. The heck with patience, I want God to make me into the man He wants me to be, NOW!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OY! Rolling eyes in the way that means “oh brother”. It doesn’t happen that way, and this is part of what I was talking about when I mentioned feeling pressure.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> 1. My logic appears to her as I'm disregarding (I.E. not valuing) her feelings. I guess that is true since I don't often consider them. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just as her smooshiness appears to you as if she is disregarding/not valuing your reasoning.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> 2. Presenting my logical view only ends up frustrating me as she doesn't subscribe to that same view.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This sounds dangerously close to she can either agree with you or you get angry at her. Is that the way it is, Tony? Is that maybe the way she sees it? If she doesn’t agree with you or see it the same way as you, you get all frustrated and justify speaking harshly to her??

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> Ergo, in this scenario, my logic does me more harm that good. (Other than helping me come to this conclusion) … Ok, so I see the value of trying to understand her feelings. … Now how do I do this? I have 38 years of exercising the mental muscle, but my soul is a bit atrophied. … Does God make Andro for the soul? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay-—Tony there are no pills, shots or after-shave lotions that you can use for an instantaneous change! It takes effort, practice (and failure), and TIME!! Exercise your emotions by doing some of the exercises I described above—or something equally helpful that you come up with.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I figure, if I'm listening for clues to how she is feeling, then I'm a bit more likely to pick up on it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OMG!! YAY!! Good job!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Well, I can practice on YD, and maybe even SD. I certainly have more contact with YD than with W. … Ok, my brain is cooked. Off to bed. … I'm planning to get up at 4AM, so I better start sleeping now, LOL</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YAY!! Oh, Tony-meister I’m so excited. You certainly can practice on YD and SD. See learning to be in touch with your feelings is going to be good for you whether your W chooses to reconcile with you or not. You will be a better man for it, and you will be closer to the man God wants you to be!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Now, regarding the bed thing-—I am a night owl by nature, so I’m usually up until 1am or 2am MT—aka 4am ET! We could be talking to each other on MB from DIFFERENT DAYS! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />


CJ

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong> Greetings my struggling brother.

I have a few quick things to let you know:
#1 – When I was young, I used to be a gymnast, and I fell off the balance beam and really hurt my back. Today it’s aching, so when my back hurts, I don’t think as clearly, quickly, or logically. Please give me a little bit of a break today, okay?? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, will do my best to not pick apart your logic. Please do not take offense where I correct facts <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> etc.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

#2 – When you write over and over again about wanting microwave results and wanting immediate time with her and being frustrated because she won’t even consider reconciliation, I think you are really pushing for your own way RIGHT NOW, and I feel very pressured. It’s somewhat similar to the feeling of one person with a life jacket and everyone else who doesn’t have one clinging to them and pulling them under. So, whilst I understand your desperation and extreme anxiety, I’m going to ask you to back off a little—-and to me, that means mellow out the tone of your posts from a command or requirement for instantaneous results to recognizing that it’s going to take time…that your wife may have her mind made up…and that while I may help you to understand better, it is conceivable it may not save your marriage.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This just reinforces my frustration that I've not been successful in making the changes I need to make. I know I shouldn't be impatient with God or His Holy Spirit. However, I still am. I've been praying and asking for 6+ months to understand what I'm doing wrong, to clearly hear what the Holy Spirit would have me do, to be clearly shown what I need to do to be more Christlike.

I don't feel like I've been taken seriously by God. It's not like I'm praying to win the lottery, nor is it like I'm saying I'm not willing to do the work.

I'm saying I don't even know what to do, and I need God to keep his promise in my life.

I'm frustrated with me and God more than I'm frustrated with any person. God tell us in His word:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">James 1:2-8
<strong>
James 1


Trials and Temptations

Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm asking for wisdom here, I want to know what words God would have me speak to my wife. I want to know what actions God wants me to perform. If He doesn't want me to talk to her, then tell me.

You mention later that you are proud of her. I'm proud and troubled.

When she moved out and told me she just wanted to have her space, I SUPPORTED HER IN THAT. I HELPED HER MOVE!!!

I didn't say that what she was doing was wrong. In fact, when her family thought she was nuts, I was IN HER CORNER SUPPORTING HER AND TELLING THEM THAT I UNDERSTAND THAT SHE NEEDS TO DO THIS.

So I somewhat resent the idea that you think I'm judgmental about her moving out.

I was very upset that she lied to me. I asked her on several occassions if there was another man, and she always said no. I know that was untrue at the time, and have both her word and information from the OM's W.

So I do take some exception to your view of her being strong. I guess I have a completely different view, that she is quitting. Of course I understand why she hurts, and I hope it is obvious to you that I'm willing to do the work to learn how to be more sensitive.

But to continue that buffalo analogy you used, sure I'm the buffalo, but I'm a blind and deaf buffalo and my eyes, the butterfly are not giving me the information I need.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>


Now, let’s get down to the meat of some of your posts.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> …I'm not having an affair, nor did I have an affair. My "crime" is that I'm insensitive to feelings and driven by logic. …You said it very well, I'm goal oriented. I look at the destination, not the journey. …So I'm trying to understand WHY in this case, my wife is not willing to consider reconciliation???</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As you know, I do not consider being driven by logic a crime—-any more than I consider it a crime to be driven by emotions. It is not “wrong” just different. BUT…if I could put 2 and 2 together, are you trying to say, “Hey, it’s not like I’m the one who had an affair here! All I did was be insensitive”? Is that close?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right on the money. I never intended to hurt her, and in fact, I thought I was doing the things I was supposed to do.

I don't see an affair as the "things you are supposed to do" in a relationship.

I understand why she had the affair, she felt hurt, insignificant, etc. Furthermore, my attempts to "take her pulse" were met with answers like, "oh, I'm just tired" when I asked her how she felt, or when she would just park herself in front of the TV in the bedroom and run me out.

She would complain that I would get on the comptuer and visit message boards. Well, the truth is, I came home every night and tried to connect with her, and could not drag her away from her soap operas or reality shows.

I'm an E, I have a great need for conversation, and we used to have conversation. Now we don't.

So, since I wasn't getting my need for conversation meet. I went online and talked about cars, autocrossing, motor oil, whatever...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> <strong>

Tony, I think that’s your heart talking—-you’re saying stuff out of hurt there, and so I’m going to choose to bypass the glaring LB-style of this. You are HURT so you are doing a little hurting back by flinging the affair out there. It’s understandable, but that kind of verbal zing is JUST the kind of thing that caused little hurts over the years that added up to huge hurts.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes I'm hurt, no I'm not trying to hurt anyone else. Remember, to me they are just facts. No emotion involved. When I say she had an affair, it is simply the conveyance of a fact. If I wanted to hurt, I'd say something like (and I don't say these things) that two timing so-n-so (fill in your favorite prejorative) is screwed up in the head.

I've NEVER said anything like that, to her, or anybody else.

Nope, I'm just sharing facts. However, I guess I have a lot to learn, because even facts seem to hurt some people or sound like I'm trying to hurt someone.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

I understand that you are goal-oriented, but a logical fella like you should understand that if you do step one, skip steps two and three, and do only step four to get to the goal quicker, then the integrity of the goal is compromised. So, you are here: “90% thinking with my head/10% feeling with my heart” and you’d like to be here: “70% thinking with my head /30% feeling with my heart.” How do you go from one place to the other? What might be some logical steps to take? What might be some exercises you could do to get more in touch with your feelings and more in touch with empathy?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's the question I've been asking. It seems God is uncharacteristically silent on this so far. Maybe you are His messenger, I don't know. All I know is I WANT to know what to do.

I don't want to skip to step 4, because I know I have to open or wait for her spirit to open.

However, I think I made the case for not spending more time on step 1. I've been in step #1 for 6+ months. I don't disagree with you regarding the things I did wrong.

I just need to see these things BEFORE I do them. I can see them AFTER they've occured, but I don't have that filter. I don't hear the Holy Spirit guiding my words, and that is what I want, or want to learn.

Again, I'm willing to do the work, I agree that there is merit to understanding how she feels and how can I anticipate how she will feel about anything I might say BEFORE I say it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

Speaking for myself, I was about 90% Feeler/10% Thinker and I wanted to be more Thinker, so I did training exercises to TEACH myself to think more logically. I made lists; I wrote down goals and broke them down into steps to get there; I read about philosophy and quantum physics to see if I could follow the thought and logic; etc. As much as possible, I tried to engage my MIND in order to grow that muscle. You do the same thing here but in reverse, Tony. Every day, learn a new word for a feeling and learn about that feeling. If you have more emotional vocabulary than “angry, frustrated, pissed, and happy” you will be better able to identify when you do have a feeling. Write down emotional goals and break them down into steps to get there—like you want to check in with yourself once each hour and see how you’re feeling AT THAT MOMENT, and you want to do that check in every day for two weeks so you become more aware of your feelings. Read some books about feelings, emotions, etc. and see if you can identify what do you need to do to empathize? Keep a diary of your emotions and when they change, noting date, time of day, and some surrounding circumstances and see if you can see a pattern (for example, I noticed that when I do not get adequate sleep, I tend to be more grouchy, angry, touchy, and improperly sensitive-—whereas when I take care of myself and get good sleep, I’m more able and available to be thoughtful and sympathetic). FINALLY, when I noticed myself getting into an emotional whirlwind (as is my nature) I just recognized that I needed to take some time to let the whirlwind die down and then I’d be able to THINK—-you may need to do something similar. When you get into a particularly logical mode from work, you may need some time to let the logic-mode subside and re-engage your feelings.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YEAH! Now you are speaking my language. I do want to say that I have no problem with expressing my feelings and W even says that.

My problem is that I cannot see how my words and deeds make others feel, nor can I even anticipate how someone might feel and adjust my words or actions based on a potential for hurt feelings.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

As to why you wife will not even consider reconciliation, you know each INFP woman is different, but my guess would be that she’s afraid to try again and have it not work out. She possibly is afraid that if she trusts you one more time, that things will go back to the way they always were and she will get hurt again—-so for her, it’s easier to close and lock the door to her heart.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I've ALWAYS asked her to tell me and show me what it was she wanted. …She has told me that if I don't know what to do, then I must not have the feelings. …Of course, now she says she has no romantic feelings for me, nor does she want me to try to rekindle any sort of romance.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmm…asking her to tell you and show you what she wants it the rough equivalent of her saying to you, “Explain to me your exact thought processes on every decision and choice you’ve made today—-including data consider, the model used, and the result.” Okay, at first you might be able to do it because it would be kind of fun to share your Thinker moments with your wife—-but after a few weeks or months of it, you’d get tired. Same here. At some point, if you were sharing your data gathered, model used, and calculation results, you might hope that your wife would catch on and start at least seeing the pattern to HOW you think—and she probably figures that if she explained to you what to say and what to do, that eventually you would start to catch on to how she feels. Unfortunately, Feelers take different data into consideration in almost every instance, so that Thinkers can rarely if ever make a static model from which they can always (or even USUALLY) reach the correct conclusion. So what happens is that the Thinker puts in the known/obvious facts—-puts it into the “if/then” model that they’ve built, and the Thinker comes to a conclusion; meanwhile the Feeler puts in the known/obvious facts and the intuitively understood truths—-filters it all through intuition and perceptions-—and comes to an entirely different conclusion but wonders what in the world is wrong with the Thinker!! Furthermore, the Feeler often incorrectly assumes that if the Thinker can’t reach the same conclusion and consider all the variables, then the Thinker must not FEEL love or romance or whatever.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have a headache. No I just would like to hear simple declaritive sentances. When you did X it made me feel Y.

Such as, when you mentioned QDRO's it made me feel intelectually inferior.

That's all I want. You did this and I felt that.

I don't know how to explain to you that I don't see this, and especially now that most of our communication is via the telephone.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

BTW, she says she does not have romantic feelings for you because her love bank is empty, and she does not want to rekindle romance for the reasons mentioned above. She possibly is afraid that if she trusts you one more time, that things will go back to the way they always were and she will get hurt again-—so for her, it’s easier to close and lock the door to her heart.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I understand (as best I can) why she feels this way. However, looking at it logically with regard to feelings, here are the scenarios as I see them.

1. Remain in marriage without change = hurt.
2. Get Divorced = Trade one hurt for another
3. Work on marriage = only chance of NOT hurting one another and the children.

She doesn't see #3 as possible and she is willing to take the chance that the hurt in #2 is minimized on her part. (However, she doesn't consider the hurt that I feel, at least from what I can see. She doesn't even acknowledge that this hurts me.)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, here’s some of your little Thinker logic sticking it’s head out now! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Tony, your arguments and persuasions make a lot of logical sense, but very little emotional sense. To her, the choices are more like:

1. Remain in marriage without change and die from the pain and lose myself completely
2. Get divorced and hurt now, but be free to be myself later
3. Work on marriage and risk my heart and continue to let myself be hurt.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank You!!! You are right, I never thought of it that way.

I can see your/her POV. See, I have no idea how she might see/feel about these things.

That's the kind of information I'd like to hear from her. I would welcome that information and thank her for that, much as I'm thanking you right now.

So since she can't tell me and it is impractical to bring every scenario to you, how do I learn to anticipate this?

I will perform the exercise you mentioned, but I'd like you to tweek the exercise so I can learn to anticipate the feelings of others.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

As far as not considering that it hurts you, I would counter with this: for years she did try to communicate in her Feeler way that you were hurting her—-but you are a buffalo and did not even notice what she (the butterfly) was saying. For years you did not seem to consider the hurt that she felt, so now she does not acknowledge the hurt that you feel. Working on the marriage to her means returning to the person with whom she has associated pain and agony and sorrow. Nothing personal my man, but who would WANT to return to that?? In many ways, I’m proud of her for standing up for herself and protecting herself. In many ways, I admire her ability to hurt some now in order to be free and unhurt later. Can you see that as an admirable and compelling trait? Your wife, she is QUITE a strong woman!

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You read what I read before as well. I too am proud that she is taking steps that she thinks will make her a better, healthier person.

Simultaneously, I'm dismayed that she could not be honest with me, or take the time to speak to me in MY language.

However, I have to admit that I don't speak her language, so maybe she has equal difficulty finding the logical way to explain it to me. (Speaking my language.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> … I guess I don't get it yet. I spoke with W on the phone and she was upset that we talked and she got upset. …She says I have too many expectations. (We were talking about me seeing our daughter.) … She mentioned she was having her own problems with SD and that she didn't have anyone to help. … I said I would like to help in anyway I could. Perhaps I should have just empathized. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tony, stop and think a second—-when you called her was it during a time when she told you not to call (as in, it’s inconvenient for her)? Was it later or early or right at a meal time? Did you push her to have a “relationship talk” or did she mildly object to the call and you drove right over her objection? I do not know the circumstances of your call, but these are some typical, representative things that can occur that might upset your wife.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I try to call before 8PM as she tries to get YD to bed by 8:30. I called Sunday night at 7:30PM, and that isn't a typical dinner time. So how am I supposed to know she is eating dinner.

Didn't try to force a relationship talk. In fact, I asked her about what happened with SD on Friday night. I've NEVER just shown up at the apartment. I've NEVER asked to come over to the apartment. I only come when invited, and SD asked me to bring her something Friday night, and I simply wanted to visit with YD and was not allowed to.

So I asked W about this, and the conversation went to W having her own problems with SD and how she didn't have anyone to help.

So I shared the fact that I'm still willing to help, and she got upset about that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

As relates to seeing your D, it would probably be best if you two could have a regular schedule with SOME flexibility. This is good for you and your wife because you can plan your lives, and it is good for your D because she knows when she will be where, and when she will be with which parent. Tony, she NEEDS to have you in her life, so even if your wife hardens her heart and divorces you, do not get depressed and slow down regular time with your daughter. She NEEDS to have a relationship with her father even if her mom does not want to.

HOWEVER, I will mention that just in reading your posts once or twice, I’ve noticed that you stop over and want to see YD, or feel lonely and want to see D. That kind of dropping by and sudden change of schedule only leads to hurt and misunderstanding. If she lets you see YD and D, then you are disrupting her life and disrespecting her schedule, and resentment will build. OTOH, if she doesn’t let you see YD and D, then you are hurt. It’s like you expect her to just bend to your needs and your wavering wishes. So, that’s what she means when she says you have too many expectations.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See above, I've never just "stopped by" I do call to talk to her, and I think that is appropriate.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

One thing I TOTALLY understand and empathize with is your wife’s statement about having trouble with SD and having no one to help. She was not trying to manipulate you into helping her-—she was feeling overwhelmed. I don’t know SD’s age, but as the kids get older, there are times when they are just a HANDFUL. When you’re married, you have a partner sharing your life who can take over for a little while when you get overwhelmed. When you’re alone, every situation must be dealt with BY YOU and there is no relief and no reinforcement. Plus, kids are smart as a whip, and when they see a crack or break in mom’s armor, they go right for it and pick, pick, pick. There are times when you just want to cry out to someone: “AARRGGHH!!! I’m doing this alone!! I can’t do this anymore-—I’m exhausted and they won’t let up.” Sometimes there are behavior issues, school issues, friend issues, etc. and it seems like every bit of your energy goes into your kids.

If you say, “Boy that sounds tough-—what can I do?” be prepared to here a pretty snappy response, like “Pay your child support on time, you a$$!” You might want to try REPS: (R)esponsibility, (E)mpathy, (P)lan, (S)afety. When she says she is having her own problems with SD and she doesn’t have anyone to help, you might say: “I’m so sorry that you are in the position of raising SD alone because of the way I treated you. I bet that’s really hard on you and exhausting. Would it help if I watch the kids one night a week every Wednesday to give you a day off? Whatever YOU decide you need in order to feel supported in this, I will be happy to offer.”
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I wasn't as sweet as you were, but I said I was there to help.

She used to have me get the girls three days a week to take them to school in the AM as on MWF YD has pre-school at 9AM and SD (14yo BTW) has school at 8AM, and they both are still in school near our house and 20 minutes from the apartment.

So three days a week, I was driving over there, getting the girls and driving back.

SD has basically become impossible with me, saying things like I'm going to kill her, I killed her cat, etc.

(I only kill bugs, and the occassional trout while fishing.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I'd just like microwave results. I know God can radically change me like I keep praying for. Sort of a Road to Damascus experience where Saul is radically transformed into Paul. … So I know it can be done. The heck with patience, I want God to make me into the man He wants me to be, NOW!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OY! Rolling eyes in the way that means “oh brother”. It doesn’t happen that way, and this is part of what I was talking about when I mentioned feeling pressure.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> 1. My logic appears to her as I'm disregarding (I.E. not valuing) her feelings. I guess that is true since I don't often consider them. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just as her smooshiness appears to you as if she is disregarding/not valuing your reasoning.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> 2. Presenting my logical view only ends up frustrating me as she doesn't subscribe to that same view.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This sounds dangerously close to she can either agree with you or you get angry at her. Is that the way it is, Tony? Is that maybe the way she sees it? If she doesn’t agree with you or see it the same way as you, you get all frustrated and justify speaking harshly to her??

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> Ergo, in this scenario, my logic does me more harm that good. (Other than helping me come to this conclusion) … Ok, so I see the value of trying to understand her feelings. … Now how do I do this? I have 38 years of exercising the mental muscle, but my soul is a bit atrophied. … Does God make Andro for the soul? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay-—Tony there are no pills, shots or after-shave lotions that you can use for an instantaneous change! It takes effort, practice (and failure), and TIME!! Exercise your emotions by doing some of the exercises I described above—or something equally helpful that you come up with.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, please help me come up with an exercise where I learn to predict the emotional response of others to what I'm saying or doing.

It's not that I'm devoid of emotion, but rather that emotion is a very small part of my decision making and word choice.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I figure, if I'm listening for clues to how she is feeling, then I'm a bit more likely to pick up on it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OMG!! YAY!! Good job!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Well, I can practice on YD, and maybe even SD. I certainly have more contact with YD than with W. … Ok, my brain is cooked. Off to bed. … I'm planning to get up at 4AM, so I better start sleeping now, LOL</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YAY!! Oh, Tony-meister I’m so excited. You certainly can practice on YD and SD. See learning to be in touch with your feelings is going to be good for you whether your W chooses to reconcile with you or not. You will be a better man for it, and you will be closer to the man God wants you to be!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Now, regarding the bed thing-—I am a night owl by nature, so I’m usually up until 1am or 2am MT—aka 4am ET! We could be talking to each other on MB from DIFFERENT DAYS! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />


CJ </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks,

Tony

I was just wondering...

Do you have any idea what a challenge this is? This is like watching a movie in Latin and translating it into English and there is not English equivalent for that Latin word! I feel like I'm filtering my thoughts through two or three translations before I can get it into a form that rings true in you.

Okay. Deep breath. Here we go again.

It seemed like you like the exercises because they are fairly concrete, so let's go with that, in conjunction with breaking through to chapter two "Openning a Closed Spirit"

Here are the exercises I want you to practice. If you are a writer, you may write them. I know you can THINK them, but I think you might have more recall and make more progress faster if you write it down; however, it does not need to be full longhand--notes in your PDA or an outline will do.

(BTW, I bet you can tell...I did mine longhand, and I'm quite long-winded! Heehee <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Laughing at myself).

Now, these assignments are non-negotiable. Unless there is blood or fire, I expect you to do them even if you don't want to and even if you can logic your way out of them! Got it??

1) Do one fun thing every day. I mean it! Now, my fun is more feeley and mooshy like I took a moment to stop and enjoy the sunset tonite, and I listened to Linkin Park with my son because I love him. To me, that's fun and on the verge of playing. For YOU, it may be fun to finally organize your socks in to color order...or sanitize your kitchen...or work on your car so that it works properly. I don't know!! Whatever it is that makes your heart feel a little happy, do a few minutes of that every day. Write down what you did and when and where.

2) Look up, discuss, and investigate one feeling word each day. Now, I'm not talking about memorizing the dictionary definition. I'm talking about thinking about what the word means and what that feeling would feel like. Today's word is:Exhausted--not on a physical level, on an emotional level.

Here's an example of what I mean: To me, exhausted emotionally means that you have drained all your emotional reserves and used them either for yourself or others. You are bone dry. Emotionally Exhausted means you can't give one more hug or say one more supportive word without collapsing. Emotional exhaustion feels like tiredness, and feels like being used, and feels like you can't lift your arms or head, and feels like the life has been sucked out of you. It's not so much HURT as EXPENDED. I feel this way when I give and give and give to my family and friends -- OR WRITE TO THINKER MEN (HEEHEE--rib rib) -- and I don't take the time to take care of myself and let them give to me.

3)Four times a day, check in with yourself and write down how you are feeling: morning, noon, dinner time, and bed time. The following words may NOT be used: "frustrated" "angry" "pissed off" "okay" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I need better emotional vocabulary than that. Do you maybe feel emotionally exhausted??

4) Once a day, we are going to practice empathetic listening. I'm going to tell you something about my day, my life or my dog (whatever) and you are going to try to pick out my feeling words and mirror back to me what I told you I was feeling.

Here's an example: Today was an unproductive but fun day at work. One of my secretaries was out today, so I had to do all of her work and my work too, and I ended up on the phone all day long answering calls. However, I really enjoyed reconnecting with all my customers, and I love talking to people in general because I like them. Plus, I REALLY enjoyed talking to our locksmiths and dispatching them to their calls. I love joking around with them and being friendly. So, although I'm disappointed I didn't get much work work done, I had a good day and in the end feel satisfied with my day.

Tony--can you pick out the feeling words in that? Just list them for now and we'll progress from there.

5) Move on into Chapter Two "Openning a Closed Spirit" and let's start discussing that.

These are my exercises and these are my terms. Do you agree to do the exercises??


CJ

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:
OK, will do my best to not pick apart your logic. Please do not take offense where I correct facts <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> etc. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay I will do my best to remind myself that it's very factual and concrete, not personal. It's difficult for me to imagine a statement having little or no feelings involved in it. That's kind of like a lung having little or no air. BUT, as I understand it, that's what it's like for you...a statement with no emotion invested into it. Is that correct? Close-ish??

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This just reinforces my frustration that I've not been successful in making the changes I need to make. I know I shouldn't be impatient with God or His Holy Spirit. However, I still am. I've been praying and asking for 6+ months to understand what I'm doing wrong, to clearly hear what the Holy Spirit would have me do, to be clearly shown what I need to do to be more Christlike.

I don't feel like I've been taken seriously by God. It's not like I'm praying to win the lottery, nor is it like I'm saying I'm not willing to do the work.

I'm saying I don't even know what to do, and I need God to keep his promise in my life.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ahhhh!!! Now this I understand. What you're saying is that you would like God to drop a divine list into your hands that says, "Do A, B, and C to be more Christlike, and your W will come back" or "Your W will not be coming back, but it's because I want to do X, Y, and Z with your life." Okay--well maybe not THAT obvious, but something close, like speak to you in some way or give you some clarity or SOMETHING!!

Tony, I don't know about you, but I find it very hard to hear God's voice when I'm shouting at Him. Usually I'm making such a racket that eventually He will hit me on the head with a fry pan and I'll say, "Oh--You want me to be quiet." DUH!

You've been praying for what seems like a LONG time "to understand what I'm doing wrong, to clearly hear what the Holy Spirit would have me do, to be clearly shown what I need to do to be more Christlike." Is this the prayer that God wants? If not, He will sit and wait until it's the prayer He wants.

Even Jesus, in the Garden of Gethsemane, did not want to have to go through the agony of crucifixion, and he prostrated himself before God and said "if there was ANY other way, please don't make me go through this." There was NO OTHER WAY, and God made his own salvation suffer indescribably for the good of you and I. Tony, there may be NO OTHER WAY for you to learn the lessons you need to learn, or there may be NO OTHER WAY for your W to learn the lessons she needs to learn to come back to God!!

May I be very bold?? I think you need to thank God in your prayers. Thank Him for the very thing that is hurting you right now, and He will honor that prayer for it is the will of God concerning you. I also think you need to ask God for the courage to accept HIS WILL and not yours. Stop asking Him for what you want, and start asking Him for courage to do what HE wants. Finally, thank Him that He loves you enough to put you through suffering so that you might be a better, more godly man. This is what James is talking about in James 1--it is a PRIVILEGE and JOY to face trials and suffering because it is through pain that we become closer to God and become more spiritually mature.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...So I somewhat resent the idea that you think I'm judgmental about her moving out.

I was very upset that she lied to me. I asked her on several occassions if there was another man, and she always said no. I know that was untrue at the time, and have both her word and information from the OM's W.

So I do take some exception to your view of her being strong. I guess I have a completely different view, that she is quitting. Of course I understand why she hurts, and I hope it is obvious to you that I'm willing to do the work to learn how to be more sensitive...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sorry if it seemed I was being harsh, Tony. I did not think you were judgemental about her moving out, but I can see that I need to choose my words a little more wisely. I can certainly understand how you would interpret my words as thinking you were judgemental, but just so you know, I did not mean them that way. I think you W did not so much quit--she did one, last, strong stand to protect herself. It may be misguided, and it may be protection from a fear that is her issue not yours--but I'm glad she did not just quit on herself. I'm glad she finds herself valuable enough to save. THAT'S what I meant.

Do you think you can forgive me for coming across so harshly? I would like it if you could.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But to continue that buffalo analogy you used, sure I'm the buffalo, but I'm a blind and deaf buffalo and my eyes, the butterfly are not giving me the information I need. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Heehee. Tony, have you ever seen a "real" buffalo? Of course, living out here in the west, I see buffalo herds all the time, so I know what they are like. They are REALLY BIG, and kind of rough and insensitve. If a hornet sits on a buffalo, it can sting all the way through the buffalo's hide, and the buffalo just swats it and doesn't really feel it at all. This is why the buffalo/butterfly analogy is SO GOOD!! If the big old rough and tumble buffalo does not even feel a wasp sting except enough to swat it away, how can a BUTTERFLY communicate with the buffalo??? Boy, just to get his attention, she would have to land on his eyeball! She can't drop a rock on him to grab his attention, because anything a butterfly could carry would be puny and meaningless to a buffalo. She can't push him or pinch him or poke him, because she just isn't powerful enough. She can't scream and yell because one puffy breeze and she blows away!

So here's this poor butterfly dropping what feel like boulders to her--the buffalo doesn't even know they hit him. The the butterfly pushes him and he thinks its the wing--she pulls his tail and he feels one hair fall out...nothing! She pinches him and he keeps chewing. She pokes him and he swats her away with his tail. It's like she's working her butterfly hindend off, and she doesn't even REGISTER with him!!!

Sound familar?? You keep saying your butterfly didn't give you the info you needed, but Mr. Buffalo, you never opened your eyes to see your butterfly. You can not make the butterfly stronger or tougher or more powerful (that's her choice), but you can make Mr. Buffalo more observant, more sensitive, and a little more gentle. That's where we are going to keep our focus--on Mr. Buffalo, not on the butterfly.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right on the money. I never intended to hurt her, and in fact, I thought I was doing the things I was supposed to do. ... She would complain that I would get on the comptuer and visit message boards. Well, the truth is, I came home every night and tried to connect with her, and could not drag her away... I'm an E, I have a great need for conversation, and we used to have conversation... So, since I wasn't getting my need for conversation met, I went online and talked ... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will be brief here, because it's not productive to dwell on this right now. It seems apparent to me that in any relationship both partners need to have some desire to know each other and learn how to speak in the other's language. You very much would like to learn how to speak Feeler, but it does not seem as if she had much desire to speak Thinker...and for this I am truly sorry. It's a shame too, because as a Feeler who has stretched myself into learning to be a bit more of a Thinker, I feel like I am a better person for it. This is my observation, stated as evidence, not with feelings.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes I'm hurt, no I'm not trying to hurt anyone else. Remember, to me they are just facts. No emotion involved. When I say she had an affair, it is simply the conveyance of a fact. ...Nope, I'm just sharing facts. However, I guess I have a lot to learn, because even facts seem to hurt some people or sound like I'm trying to hurt someone.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Whoa! This is SO HARD for me to understand. You can imagine, Tony, being a FEELER and being the BS. It just about killed me. So I have great difficulty imagining how someone can state "My spouse had an affair" factually with no emotion. That's almost inconceivable to me! Whew!

So, you have a good point there. I had not looked at it from the POV of just sharing a fact, because that's not the way my reality works. Thank you for pointing that out to me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have a headache. No I just would like to hear simple declaritive sentances. When you did X it made me feel Y.

Such as, when you mentioned QDRO's it made me feel intelectually inferior.

That's all I want. You did this and I felt that.

I don't know how to explain to you that I don't see this, and especially now that most of our communication is via the telephone. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, first just to clarify, you meant that you and your W mostly communicate via telephone, right? That got a little confusing.

Anyway, let me lay this on you. Feelers rarely if even can state something in one short, declarative sentence. I mean, look at my novels!! OY!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Our communication is more of a process, and what you want is not the whole process but the end or conclusion. But asking a Feeler for a short declaration is like asking you to speak all your analysis and re-analysis out loud as you are processing it! It can be done, but it's HARD!

Thus, Mr. Buffalo, what would be a compromise that would work for both the short statement buffalo and the longwinded but oh so delicate butterfly? Mr. Buffalo try to learn to stick with the whole process-talk method because Miss Butterfly is worth the extra effort, while Miss Butterfly try to learn to stick with the W-T-F-S format? Don't do the whole long schpeel--just the "When you...I think...I feel...so I ask you..." statement??

BTW, when you do X it does not "make" anybody feel anything...Y or Z! They CHOOSE to feel Y or they choose to feel Z. I feel pressured when you want immediate results because *I* choose to feel pressured--I could just as easily choose to blow you off or ignore it or obscess about it. So for now, let's agree to this format:

"I feel (or I think) ABC when you XYZ because..."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Simultaneously, I'm dismayed that she could not be honest with me, or take the time to speak to me in MY language.

However, I have to admit that I don't speak her language, so maybe she has equal difficulty finding the logical way to explain it to me. (Speaking my language.) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would have to agree with you--it is sad that she did not take the time to speak Thinker to you. And YEP--it IS equally difficult to find the logical way to speak things! Trust me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Okay, oldtimer--I'm off to bed early tonight. Have a pleasant day tomorrow, and for tomorrow only we are going to do just the new assignments. No new chapter until Wednesday.

NIGHT!


CJ

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong> I was just wondering...

Do you have any idea what a challenge this is? This is like watching a movie in Latin and translating it into English and there is not English equivalent for that Latin word! I feel like I'm filtering my thoughts through two or three translations before I can get it into a form that rings true in you.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have an idea. I'm trying to do the same thing, translating Logical Latin into Empathetic English, and often finding there are few or only poor feeling words to describe the logic.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

Okay. Deep breath. Here we go again.

It seemed like you like the exercises because they are fairly concrete, so let's go with that, in conjunction with breaking through to chapter two "Openning a Closed Spirit"

Here are the exercises I want you to practice. If you are a writer, you may write them. I know you can THINK them, but I think you might have more recall and make more progress faster if you write it down; however, it does not need to be full longhand--notes in your PDA or an outline will do.

(BTW, I bet you can tell...I did mine longhand, and I'm quite long-winded! Heehee <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Laughing at myself).

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I did mine longhanded, neither of us could read them, LOL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

Now, these assignments are non-negotiable. Unless there is blood or fire, I expect you to do them even if you don't want to and even if you can logic your way out of them! Got it??

1) Do one fun thing every day. I mean it! Now, my fun is more feeley and mooshy like I took a moment to stop and enjoy the sunset tonite, and I listened to Linkin Park with my son because I love him. To me, that's fun and on the verge of playing. For YOU, it may be fun to finally organize your socks in to color order...or sanitize your kitchen...or work on your car so that it works properly. I don't know!! Whatever it is that makes your heart feel a little happy, do a few minutes of that every day. Write down what you did and when and where.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Does being color blind get me out of the whole sock thing. (Just as a funny aside, you should see some of the looks on new customer's faces when I ask them to show me which piece of equipment has the AMBER light. We have some equipment with what are called tri-state LED's. So they light up green, or amber, or do not light at all.

I cannot tell the green from the amber, so I can't see which piece of equipment is faulty.

So you can imagine the confidence instilled in a customer who is paying 3 million each year in support when their Systems Engineer shows up and can't tell which unit is having trouble.

So the stereo rewiring job last weekend was also a challenge, to say the least.)

Ok, I will try my best to have fun, but I do get to decide what is fun. I will resist the temptation to go have hotwings at that restaruant known for scantily clad over-endowed girls serving mediocre wings.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

2) Look up, discuss, and investigate one feeling word each day. Now, I'm not talking about memorizing the dictionary definition. I'm talking about thinking about what the word means and what that feeling would feel like. Today's word is:Exhausted--not on a physical level, on an emotional level.

Here's an example of what I mean: To me, exhausted emotionally means that you have drained all your emotional reserves and used them either for yourself or others. You are bone dry. Emotionally Exhausted means you can't give one more hug or say one more supportive word without collapsing. Emotional exhaustion feels like tiredness, and feels like being used, and feels like you can't lift your arms or head, and feels like the life has been sucked out of you. It's not so much HURT as EXPENDED. I feel this way when I give and give and give to my family and friends -- OR WRITE TO THINKER MEN (HEEHEE--rib rib) -- and I don't take the time to take care of myself and let them give to me.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exhausted: Emotionally drained, mentally tired beyond the point of caring. When I get to that point, I just want to shut down, go lie down in the bed and take a nap. So tired that the brain cannot find the energy to tell the motor muscles what to do.

Yes, I can relate to that. I don't really give hugs anyway. It's not that I don't like them, I like them alot. It's just not something I've offered.

I'd like to correct what I feel is a mis-conception. While I'm a thinker, please don't go on with the notion that I don't have feelings. I have very deep feelings, very intense feelings. I just don't express them and only use them as a "tie breaker" if the facts support two different decisions.

For example, let's say I was buying a car. I've examined the numbers, looked at horsepower, handling, reliability and cost. So let's say that when I examine two cars, one is fast and less expensive. The other handles well and is reliable. I value all four equally, so I have a tie.

It is only then that I would look at something other than the facts. I may begin to consider intangibles. How do I look in the car. Which made the more favorable first impression, etc.

But I do have feelings, I just don't use them as often as other folks do.

But my real problem is not expressing my feelings, but picking out and even more difficult, ANTICPATING what someone else might feel.

I think the other exercise you have for me may be more beneficial.

However, I do understand vocabulary is also important, so I will do my best to expand my vocabulary.

(You know, I may be getting it too, because I almost said, "I'll play along..." and decided against that because it make you feel like I was not taking the exercise seriously.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

3)Four times a day, check in with yourself and write down how you are feeling: morning, noon, dinner time, and bed time. The following words may NOT be used: "frustrated" "angry" "pissed off" "okay" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I need better emotional vocabulary than that. Do you maybe feel emotionally exhausted??

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exhausted and confused, stunned, and off balance.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

4) Once a day, we are going to practice empathetic listening. I'm going to tell you something about my day, my life or my dog (whatever) and you are going to try to pick out my feeling words and mirror back to me what I told you I was feeling.

Here's an example: Today was an unproductive but fun day at work. One of my secretaries was out today, so I had to do all of her work and my work too, and I ended up on the phone all day long answering calls. However, I really enjoyed reconnecting with all my customers, and I love talking to people in general because I like them. Plus, I REALLY enjoyed talking to our locksmiths and dispatching them to their calls. I love joking around with them and being friendly. So, although I'm disappointed I didn't get much work work done, I had a good day and in the end feel satisfied with my day.

Tony--can you pick out the feeling words in that? Just list them for now and we'll progress from there.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">fun
enjoyed
love
disappointed
satisfied

The reader's digest or ESTJ summary would be:

You had a busy day at work. While you didn't accomplish all you wanted to accomplish, you felt good about your day.

A secretary was out, so you had to pick up her slack. You got a chance to re-connect with customers you haven't talked to in a while as well as have some fun with the locksmiths.

(Notes: I checked to see if you indicated the secreary was female, I did not assume.

I take it you don't normally talk with these folks???)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

5) Move on into Chapter Two "Openning a Closed Spirit" and let's start discussing that.

These are my exercises and these are my terms. Do you agree to do the exercises??


CJ </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Done, I think!

Tony

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:
OK, will do my best to not pick apart your logic. Please do not take offense where I correct facts <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> etc. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay I will do my best to remind myself that it's very factual and concrete, not personal. It's difficult for me to imagine a statement having little or no feelings involved in it. That's kind of like a lung having little or no air. BUT, as I understand it, that's what it's like for you...a statement with no emotion invested into it. Is that correct? Close-ish??

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, don't fill in emotions that are not expressed. Just like I try to find logic in what W is saying, I think feelers try to fill in the emotions that they feel the thinker (or they) should/would expresses. (Is that too confusing?)

So tell me this, turning the exercise around, when I say, "My wife had an affair" what feeling words did I use?

NONE!

So don't assume I'm trying to hurt her.

I'm not angry here either. If I'm angry or feeling any other things, I'll express them. I have no problem expressing my feeling. I have a big problem with folks ascribing their feelings to my thoughts. I have a big problem with people putting their motives into my words or actions.

Check in with me before you go off and say something like you're trying to hurt someone.

You know what, to me It's not logical to hurt someone you love, so I'd never (yes never) do that on purpose.

Using your very apt buffalo analogy, does the buffalo try to hurt the butterfly?

Nope! And I do not try to hurt my wife. She is hurt because I'm a buffalo, not because I've tried to hurt her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This just reinforces my frustration that I've not been successful in making the changes I need to make. I know I shouldn't be impatient with God or His Holy Spirit. However, I still am. I've been praying and asking for 6+ months to understand what I'm doing wrong, to clearly hear what the Holy Spirit would have me do, to be clearly shown what I need to do to be more Christlike.

I don't feel like I've been taken seriously by God. It's not like I'm praying to win the lottery, nor is it like I'm saying I'm not willing to do the work.

I'm saying I don't even know what to do, and I need God to keep his promise in my life.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ahhhh!!! Now this I understand. What you're saying is that you would like God to drop a divine list into your hands that says, "Do A, B, and C to be more Christlike, and your W will come back" or "Your W will not be coming back, but it's because I want to do X, Y, and Z with your life." Okay--well maybe not THAT obvious, but something close, like speak to you in some way or give you some clarity or SOMETHING!!

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">100% spot on! Continue.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

Tony, I don't know about you, but I find it very hard to hear God's voice when I'm shouting at Him. Usually I'm making such a racket that eventually He will hit me on the head with a fry pan and I'll say, "Oh--You want me to be quiet." DUH!

You've been praying for what seems like a LONG time "to understand what I'm doing wrong, to clearly hear what the Holy Spirit would have me do, to be clearly shown what I need to do to be more Christlike." Is this the prayer that God wants? If not, He will sit and wait until it's the prayer He wants.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Isn't that the job of the Holy Spirit, to move me to speak the words to God that He wants to hear?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

Even Jesus, in the Garden of Gethsemane, did not want to have to go through the agony of crucifixion, and he prostrated himself before God and said "if there was ANY other way, please don't make me go through this." There was NO OTHER WAY, and God made his own salvation suffer indescribably for the good of you and I. Tony, there may be NO OTHER WAY for you to learn the lessons you need to learn, or there may be NO OTHER WAY for your W to learn the lessons she needs to learn to come back to God!!

May I be very bold?? I think you need to thank God in your prayers. Thank Him for the very thing that is hurting you right now, and He will honor that prayer for it is the will of God concerning you. I also think you need to ask God for the courage to accept HIS WILL and not yours. Stop asking Him for what you want, and start asking Him for courage to do what HE wants. Finally, thank Him that He loves you enough to put you through suffering so that you might be a better, more godly man. This is what James is talking about in James 1--it is a PRIVILEGE and JOY to face trials and suffering because it is through pain that we become closer to God and become more spiritually mature.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm trying to do that, I've prayed for that as well. I just need to do a better job of it.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...So I somewhat resent the idea that you think I'm judgmental about her moving out.

I was very upset that she lied to me. I asked her on several occassions if there was another man, and she always said no. I know that was untrue at the time, and have both her word and information from the OM's W.

So I do take some exception to your view of her being strong. I guess I have a completely different view, that she is quitting. Of course I understand why she hurts, and I hope it is obvious to you that I'm willing to do the work to learn how to be more sensitive...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sorry if it seemed I was being harsh, Tony. I did not think you were judgemental about her moving out, but I can see that I need to choose my words a little more wisely. I can certainly understand how you would interpret my words as thinking you were judgemental, but just so you know, I did not mean them that way. I think you W did not so much quit--she did one, last, strong stand to protect herself. It may be misguided, and it may be protection from a fear that is her issue not yours--but I'm glad she did not just quit on herself. I'm glad she finds herself valuable enough to save. THAT'S what I meant.

Do you think you can forgive me for coming across so harshly? I would like it if you could.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">CJ, I don't think what you said rises to the point of me being hurt, but if you feel you need to be forgiven, then I want you to know that you are forgiven.

I didn't even think you were speaking harshly. I just felt you didn't truly understand, or perhaps you were projecting your feelings onto what I did/said.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But to continue that buffalo analogy you used, sure I'm the buffalo, but I'm a blind and deaf buffalo and my eyes, the butterfly are not giving me the information I need. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Heehee. Tony, have you ever seen a "real" buffalo? Of course, living out here in the west, I see buffalo herds all the time, so I know what they are like. They are REALLY BIG, and kind of rough and insensitve. If a hornet sits on a buffalo, it can sting all the way through the buffalo's hide, and the buffalo just swats it and doesn't really feel it at all. This is why the buffalo/butterfly analogy is SO GOOD!! If the big old rough and tumble buffalo does not even feel a wasp sting except enough to swat it away, how can a BUTTERFLY communicate with the buffalo??? Boy, just to get his attention, she would have to land on his eyeball! She can't drop a rock on him to grab his attention, because anything a butterfly could carry would be puny and meaningless to a buffalo. She can't push him or pinch him or poke him, because she just isn't powerful enough. She can't scream and yell because one puffy breeze and she blows away!

So here's this poor butterfly dropping what feel like boulders to her--the buffalo doesn't even know they hit him. The the butterfly pushes him and he thinks its the wing--she pulls his tail and he feels one hair fall out...nothing! She pinches him and he keeps chewing. She pokes him and he swats her away with his tail. It's like she's working her butterfly hindend off, and she doesn't even REGISTER with him!!!

Sound familar?? You keep saying your butterfly didn't give you the info you needed, but Mr. Buffalo, you never opened your eyes to see your butterfly. You can not make the butterfly stronger or tougher or more powerful (that's her choice), but you can make Mr. Buffalo more observant, more sensitive, and a little more gentle. That's where we are going to keep our focus--on Mr. Buffalo, not on the butterfly.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See before where I say the buffalo is not trying to hurt the butterfly.

I do feel your analogy, while it serves the purpose, is set up to elicit sympathy for butterflys from buffalos.

Believe me, I have been hurt by my butterfly, so it does take some effort on my part to suspend reality.

How does it feel to me? To me it really feels like she has not told me a thing until just now, and what has she done? She has shouted out that she is unhappy (first time I heard this, not necessarly the first time she said it, because she used my language for the first time.) and then ran out the door.

So now I'm frustrated. We communicated, she sent a message and I understand the message, she wants out.

So I'm thinking, we CAN communicate, so why doesn't she want to communicate. Why didn't she say this 6 months or 6 years ago?

This is neither good or bad, it's not a judgement, but simply my perspective on how I percieve what is going on.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right on the money. I never intended to hurt her, and in fact, I thought I was doing the things I was supposed to do. ... She would complain that I would get on the comptuer and visit message boards. Well, the truth is, I came home every night and tried to connect with her, and could not drag her away... I'm an E, I have a great need for conversation, and we used to have conversation... So, since I wasn't getting my need for conversation met, I went online and talked ... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will be brief here, because it's not productive to dwell on this right now. It seems apparent to me that in any relationship both partners need to have some desire to know each other and learn how to speak in the other's language. You very much would like to learn how to speak Feeler, but it does not seem as if she had much desire to speak Thinker...and for this I am truly sorry. It's a shame too, because as a Feeler who has stretched myself into learning to be a bit more of a Thinker, I feel like I am a better person for it. This is my observation, stated as evidence, not with feelings.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes I'm hurt, no I'm not trying to hurt anyone else. Remember, to me they are just facts. No emotion involved. When I say she had an affair, it is simply the conveyance of a fact. ...Nope, I'm just sharing facts. However, I guess I have a lot to learn, because even facts seem to hurt some people or sound like I'm trying to hurt someone.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Whoa! This is SO HARD for me to understand. You can imagine, Tony, being a FEELER and being the BS. It just about killed me. So I have great difficulty imagining how someone can state "My spouse had an affair" factually with no emotion. That's almost inconceivable to me! Whew!

So, you have a good point there. I had not looked at it from the POV of just sharing a fact, because that's not the way my reality works. Thank you for pointing that out to me.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are welcome. Sometimes it's so frustrating because I'd say 90% of self-help, relationship type books are written from the perspective of helping a thinker become a feeler.

Why not the other way around. Often it feels like only the thinker should change.

Now I understand I'm the only one here representing our marriage, so I'm the one who has to do all the work.

But I think, and I think I hear you saying the same thing, that it is difficult and rare for feelers to try to understand the thinker.

So why wouldn't it be just as difficult for a thinker to understand a feeler?

Just so you understand, I'm not shirking the work, but want you to know how I feel about this at times.

I think this board is largely populated with feelers. And many/most want to change the thinkers.

Do many thinkers stick around here?

I wonder...
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have a headache. No I just would like to hear simple declaritive sentances. When you did X it made me feel Y.

Such as, when you mentioned QDRO's it made me feel intelectually inferior.

That's all I want. You did this and I felt that.

I don't know how to explain to you that I don't see this, and especially now that most of our communication is via the telephone. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, first just to clarify, you meant that you and your W mostly communicate via telephone, right? That got a little confusing.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you go back to the message where I was responding, you mentioned a good portion of communication is non-verbal. However, I don't get those non-verbal cues talking on the telephone. There is no body language. I cannot see what she is doing with her hands, her eyes. I can probably start picking up on the tone of her voice, but I need to learn because I'm just listening to the words and what they mean, not the tone and feeling it conveys.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

Anyway, let me lay this on you. Feelers rarely if even can state something in one short, declarative sentence. I mean, look at my novels!! OY!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Our communication is more of a process, and what you want is not the whole process but the end or conclusion. But asking a Feeler for a short declaration is like asking you to speak all your analysis and re-analysis out loud as you are processing it! It can be done, but it's HARD!

Thus, Mr. Buffalo, what would be a compromise that would work for both the short statement buffalo and the longwinded but oh so delicate butterfly? Mr. Buffalo try to learn to stick with the whole process-talk method because Miss Butterfly is worth the extra effort, while Miss Butterfly try to learn to stick with the W-T-F-S format? Don't do the whole long schpeel--just the "When you...I think...I feel...so I ask you..." statement??

BTW, when you do X it does not "make" anybody feel anything...Y or Z! They CHOOSE to feel Y or they choose to feel Z. I feel pressured when you want immediate results because *I* choose to feel pressured--I could just as easily choose to blow you off or ignore it or obscess about it. So for now, let's agree to this format:

"I feel (or I think) ABC when you XYZ because..."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Simultaneously, I'm dismayed that she could not be honest with me, or take the time to speak to me in MY language.

However, I have to admit that I don't speak her language, so maybe she has equal difficulty finding the logical way to explain it to me. (Speaking my language.) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would have to agree with you--it is sad that she did not take the time to speak Thinker to you. And YEP--it IS equally difficult to find the logical way to speak things! Trust me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Okay, oldtimer--I'm off to bed early tonight. Have a pleasant day tomorrow, and for tomorrow only we are going to do just the new assignments. No new chapter until Wednesday.

NIGHT!


CJ </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">CJ, maybe I'm lost, so I'll visit this last part later. You used the term "W-T-F-S format" and I'm not clear on this. I looked in the previous page and I skimmed the book a bit. I even did a google search and came back with some terms I don't use in polite or even impolite company.

Ok, that's a lot for the past hour or so, so enjoy.
Please remember, the ESTJ is not trying to hurt anyone, because hurt is not logical and it serves me no purpose to hurt you or my W.

Tony

<small>[ March 09, 2004, 07:12 AM: Message edited by: javaSansContour ]</small>

CJ,

I know this sounds a bit simple, but the primary feeling I've had most of the day was at peace.

W had YD call me this morning. While she didn't want to talk to me, I did enjoy the chance to chat with Camy.

I did make sure I left her a v-mail at the apartment thanking her for having Camy call me today. (Can't rely on a 5yo to deliver that message 8^) )

From 2:00-2:30 I visited with the pastor and I wasn't so peaceful there. He confirms much of what you and W both say, so I found that helpful, but he wasn't helpful answering the questions about why I'm having such a hard time with hearing God.

He did suggest fasting, so that was something different, and gave a rationale for it as well.

But the rest of the day has been somewhat peaceful.

I'm off to my Tuesday night men's Bible study. We are working on my "favorite" book, James. (I'll either get my hands around the words, or get them around the author's neck, LOL.)

Thanks,

Tony

Java,

Didn't mean to intrude on your post here, but I just wanted to give you a thumbs up for really trying to understand your W & make the changes necessary for you to be the H you were created to be. YAY!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> You'll find the answers you're looking for - God will send His Holy Spirit upon you. I think you just really have to work on patience - trying to wait on God's timing and what a better way to learn than through CJ. She has the gift of putting into words what so many of us are thinking. God bless you on your journey!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> originally posted by java:
<strong> I have an idea. I'm trying to do the same thing, translating Logical Latin into Empathetic English, and often finding there are few or only poor feeling words to describe the logic.</strong> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Cute! Logical Latin into Empathetic English. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Are you getting tired? Do you want to just talk Logical Latin for a while to make it easier for you? I will try my best to get your language—and I’ll mirror back to make sure I’m receiving the message you’re sending.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> originally posted by CJ:
<strong> … I think you might have more recall and make more progress faster if you write it down; however, it does not need to be full longhand--notes in your PDA or an outline will do…</strong>
and the reply from java:
<strong> If I did mine longhanded, neither of us could read them, LOL </strong> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah ha! So you have doctor’s handwriting or something? All your notes are in Greek so no one else can read them? Heehee <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> Well, Mr. Technical, if you enjoy typing that’s an option that’s likely more legible, or just jot a note in your Daytimer or PDA. Whatever works for you, I leave it up to you and trust in your decision—just take the time to write a little something, okay??

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> <strong> Does being color blind get me out of the whole sock thing. (Just as a funny aside, you should see some of the looks on new customer's faces when I ask them to show me which piece of equipment has the AMBER light. We have some equipment with what are called tri-state LED's. So they light up green, or amber, or do not light at all. I cannot tell the green from the amber, so I can't see which piece of equipment is faulty. So you can imagine the confidence instilled in a customer who is paying 3 million each year in support when their Systems Engineer shows up and can't tell which unit is having trouble. So the stereo rewiring job last weekend was also a challenge, to say the least.) Ok, I will try my best to have fun, but I do get to decide what is fun. I will resist the temptation to go have hotwings at that restaurant known for scantily clad over-endowed girls serving mediocre wings. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, I’m going to immediately rush out and buy you red socks and tell you they are charcoal! OOOOOoooo. Zing. Listen, in my book being color blind does not get you out of organizing your socks, but it does explain why you wear one light blue and one beige sock. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> (teasing is now official over)

Yes, OF COURSE you get to decide what is fun. I do not mean this as dramatically as it may sound, but I have no idea what may be fun for you. Even if you were a Feeler guy, everyone is an individual and has fun doing different stuff. Thus, to be clear, I am not here to judge or critique your definition of “fun”—just encourage you to enjoy yourself (however that may be) and do something you find pleasant. And thank you for not going to Hooters—I appreciate that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> Exhausted: Emotionally drained, mentally tired beyond the point of caring. When I get to that point, I just want to shut down, go lie down in the bed and take a nap. So tired that the brain cannot find the energy to tell the motor muscles what to do. Yes, I can relate to that. I don't really give hugs anyway. It's not that I don't like them, I like them alot. It's just not something I've offered. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Interesting note: did you notice how you likened emotional exhaustion to being so tired that your brain can’t work? Iiiiiiiiiiiinteresting! Also, kind of out of the blue, you mention that you don’t give hugs. Why did you mention that? I’m sorry, I don’t see the connection between emotional exhaustion and giving hugs FOR YOU. For me, giving a hug takes some emotional energy from me and gives it to them—thus, sometimes I get “hugged out”. But that’s me. Is it somehow significant that you don’t offer hugs, or are you just not a hugger or what?? Are hugs connected to an emotional event for you, or not? I mean—is a hug emotionally significant to you? Have your feelings ever been exhausted?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> I'd like to correct what I feel is a mis-conception. While I'm a thinker, please don't go on with the notion that I don't have feelings. I have very deep feelings, very intense feelings. I just don't express them and only use them as a "tie breaker" if the facts support two different decisions. … I do have feelings, I just don't use them as often as other folks do. But my real problem is not expressing my feelings, but picking out and even more difficult, ANTICPATING what someone else might feel. I think the other exercise you have for me may be more beneficial. However, I do understand vocabulary is also important, so I will do my best to expand my vocabulary. (You know, I may be getting it too, because I almost said, "I'll play along..." and decided against that because it make you feel like I was not taking the exercise seriously.) </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, Tony, good for you! I think you really are getting it! The point of this exercise is not to humor me—nor is it to expand your vocabulary that I am confident is quite extensive and exact. No, the point of this exercise is to expand the words you use to describe your feelings, to get you thinking about the subtle differences between some feelings, and to get you to focus and think about at least one emotion every day (other than “frustrated” “happy” and “mad”). It’s an exercise in using, growing, stretching and developing the emotions that you do have.

BTW, I’m not sure how you got the false impression that I thought you didn’t have feelings. I know you have feelings, it’s just that your thinking is dominant. In my mind I liken it to being right-handed. You still HAVE a left hand and you still can write with your left hand—it’s just that your right hand is dominant. Furthermore, I’m confident you can express your emotions just as well as I can express a thought! I have no doubt that you have deep, intense feelings—the trick is to practice conveying them and reading them (through a variety of communication levels) from others.

I tend to agree with you that the other exercises will be more beneficial in developing empathy and connecting to your emotions on a regular basis, but it is my understanding that the goal here is to strengthen the “feelings muscle” and relax the “thinking muscle” so we are going to do things that involve the emotions.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> originally posted by CJ:
<strong> Do you maybe feel emotionally exhausted??</strong>
and the reply from Java:
<strong> Exhausted and confused, stunned, and off balance. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’m sorry to hear you feel like that. I hope some of the mist starts to clear, some of the shock starts to wear off, and that fairly soon you are back to being in balance with who you are.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> originally posted by CJ:
<strong>Today was an unproductive but fun day at work. One of my secretaries was out today, so I had to do all of her work and my work too, and I ended up on the phone all day long answering calls. However, I really enjoyed reconnecting with all my customers, and I love talking to people in general because I like them. Plus, I REALLY enjoyed talking to our locksmiths and dispatching them to their calls. I love joking around with them and being friendly. So, although I'm disappointed I didn't get much work work done, I had a good day and in the end feel satisfied with my day. </strong>
and the reply from Tony:
<strong> fun enjoyed love disappointed satisfied </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow, very good job. I am impressed that you were so perceptive and observant. Now would I totally blow it if I show you some of the more subtle emotional words, or shall I allow you to bask in the glow of your success? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

“Unproductive” is an emotional word for me because it involves faint elements of disappointment and dissatisfaction.

“Reconnecting” is also an emotional word for me because connecting with people is almost an instinctual drive for an INFP. Reconnecting involves relating and linking to another person, and the way I connect to people is via emotions (and some thoughts/ideas).

“Like” is an emotional word, and I think you know that so I won’t explain it a whole lot.

“Talking” is a word that COULD be an emotional word, because when I talk, I’m usually trying to connect or explain or communicate in some way.

“Joking” and “friendly” are feeler words, because they express the concept of being playful and having that kind of relationship where you can laugh with someone. Even when the person is a co-worker and not a close, personal friend, joking and being friendly connotates a relationship that is comfortable, familiar and pleasant.

So, Tony, GREAT JOB!! I am sincerely impressed!!

* * * * * * * * *
In post #2,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> originally posted by Java:
<strong> Yes, don't fill in emotions that are not expressed. Just like I try to find logic in what W is saying, I think feelers try to fill in the emotions that they feel the thinker (or they) should/would expresses. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MAN!! That is an EXCELLENT point that I had never even considered! Look at that—the student is teaching the master (giggle). Speaking purely for myself here, after I read this I gave it some consideration all day, and upon examining my own heart, I believe this is exactly what I do. I’m not sure if it’s any comfort to know that I don’t fill in with what I think people SHOULD feel—but I do fill in with what * I * would feel or what I have felt in the past. What a stunning revelation! Thank you!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> <strong>…I have a big problem with folks ascribing their feelings to my thoughts. I have a big problem with people putting their motives into my words or actions. Check in with me before you go off and say something like you're trying to hurt someone. You know what, to me It's not logical to hurt someone you love, so I'd never (yes never) do that on purpose. Using your very apt buffalo analogy, does the buffalo try to hurt the butterfly? Nope! And I do not try to hurt my wife. She is hurt because I'm a buffalo, not because I've tried to hurt her. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, you bring up a good point here. I think on an occasion people do project their own thoughts or feelings onto other people, but not always. Based on the way you’ve responded here though, it seems like I must have touched a nerve or something—most likely a nerve that your W hits all the time and maybe you think I’m hitting it too. Here’s the thing, Tony: why would I assume or say that you are TRYING to hurt someone? That makes no common sense to me. You have no reason that I know of to consciously make the effort to try to hurt your W. Furthermore, that I can recall, I do not remember saying anything that suggests you hurt her deliberately or with premeditation or anything! Nope, it’s my observation that you DID hurt her, but mostly because you are tougher and bigger than she is—and being tough and big is not wrong, it just IS. No, buffalos absolutely do not cruelly and with malice of forethought crush butterflies—but the fact is that by not noticing they are there and stepping a little clumsily, the buffalo can crush a butterfly and the end result is the butterfly is no longer existing.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">then there was a bunch of writing that was basically self-explanatory until we came across this little paragraph, originally posted by java:
<strong> See before where I say the buffalo is not trying to hurt the butterfly. I do feel your analogy, while it serves the purpose, is set up to elicit sympathy for butterflies from buffalos. Believe me, I have been hurt by my butterfly, so it does take some effort on my part to suspend reality. How does it feel to me? To me it really feels like she has not told me a thing until just now, and what has she done? She has shouted out that she is unhappy (first time I heard this, not necessarily the first time she said it, because she used my language for the first time) and then ran out the door. So now I'm frustrated. We communicated, she sent a message and I understand the message, she wants out. So I'm thinking, we CAN communicate, so why doesn't she want to communicate. Why didn't she say this 6 months or 6 years ago? This is neither good or bad, it's not a judgment, but simply my perspective on how I perceive what is going on. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tony, you sure are a funny person (btw, that’s a compliment). The buffalo/butterfly analogy is from the book we are reading—and while it does seem to serve its purpose as a visual image of some emotional stuff, I just think it’s funny to think I set it up to elicit sympathy for butterflies. I keep using it and using it as a way of communicating a concept, nothing more. Fact is, if a butterfly goes judo on a buffalo, he doesn’t realize it’s happening, and I can definitely relate to the feeling of trying to get a buffalo’s attention but everything I do seems ineffective. However, that doesn’t mean the buffalo is “bad” or the butterfly is “good” and neither need to change. Look, in nature if a buffalo and a butterfly really wanted to be a couple, the buffalo would have to learn to be more observant and tip toe, and the butterfly would have to beef up and be a little more thick-skinned. The buffalo would have behave in a way that seems very gentle and soft to him, and the butterfly would have to behave in a way that feels very brusque and coarse to her. She would have to learn to make a very loud noise, and he would have to learn to be quieter. He wouldn’t be able to thunder around, and she wouldn’t be able to be all delicate and flimsy.

However, in this little world, only the buffalo has shown up for gentleness lessons. It wouldn’t make sense for me to teach the buffalo what I would say to the butterfly if she were here. The BUFFALO is here, so I teach him stuff a buffalo needs to know. BTW, if your W were here, I would teach her butterfly stuff, like exercises on how to be logical…how to narrow a whole swirl of emotions down to one sentence…how to present her feelings of tramplement in a way a buffalo would hear…etc. PLUS, I would teach the butterfly that it’s not all the buffalo’s fault. Dude, chapter one for her would be just as painful and defeating feeling for her because she participated in this too and made some MAJOR mistakes. But for now—only the buffalo is here, so I’m teaching you how to be in touch with your butterfly side.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> <strong>Yes I'm hurt, no I'm not trying to hurt anyone else. Remember, to me they are just facts. No emotion involved. When I say she had an affair, it is simply the conveyance of a fact. ...Nope, I'm just sharing facts. However, I guess I have a lot to learn, because even facts seem to hurt some people or sound like I'm trying to hurt someone. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, you bring up a good point there. Some “facts” do hurt people. I comprehend that you are capable of saying “she had an affair” to simply convey that it occurred—without all the feelings of going through it—but just because something doesn’t hurt you doesn’t mean that it doesn’t hurt anyone else. OY! What a sentence! Is there an easier way to say that??? Here’s a fact for you—I am short. That does not hurt me. Here’s another fact for you—my exH does not find me attractive. That DOES hurt me. Subsequently, I think we may need to work on some exercises that are empathy builders focusing on “might this hurt someone? Why or why not?”

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> Sometimes it's so frustrating because I'd say 90% of self-help, relationship type books are written from the perspective of helping a thinker become a feeler. Why not the other way around? Often it feels like only the thinker should change. Now I understand I'm the only one here representing our marriage, so I'm the one who has to do all the work. But I think, and I think I hear you saying the same thing, that it is difficult and rare for feelers to try to understand the thinker. So why wouldn't it be just as difficult for a thinker to understand a feeler? Just so you understand, I'm not shirking the work, but want you to know how I feel about this at times. I think this board is largely populated with feelers. And many/most want to change the thinkers. Do many thinkers stick around here? I wonder... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, a couple of things come to mind. First, what you have said here has really made me think. My exH used to say similar things (you want me to change into a feeler) and I never understood why he felt that way, because I was doing lots of work to be more of a thinker. Now, I suspect that he was reading the “self-help” books and interpreting them as you do, and they do seem to have a bit of favoritism toward feelers don’t they? Probably because self-help books are written by feelers! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Second, I’m not sure about everyone else, but I’ve always interpreted relationship improvement to mean that BOTH partners need to learn about each other and BOTH partners need to change. The feelers need to make the effort to understand thinkers, and thinkers need to make the effort to understand feelers. The buffalo needs to learn how to tiptoe, and the butterfly needs to learn how to carry a fry pan. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Third, you really ARE the only one here, but that does not mean you need to do “all” the work. It means that you are willing to do the work that is needed to maintain a healthy relationship—one in which you stretch to understand your partner AND your partner stretches to understand you. Finally, I don’t know if it’s rare for the feelers to try to understand the thinkers—I just think it’s rare for ANY partner to take the time to soften their heart admit that they need to do some changing. It’s SO much easier to blame your partner than to look in the mirror and admit to yourself you’re wrong.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> CJ, maybe I'm lost, so I'll visit this last part later. You used the term "W-T-F-S format" and I'm not clear on this. I looked in the previous page and I skimmed the book a bit. I even did a google search and came back with some terms I don't use in polite or even impolite company. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ohhhh…(blush). I thought I spoke to you about this concept; upon review, I wrote to Standing Together about this tool. The “W-T-F-S” format is an acronym (much like REPS). It stands for “When you___, I think ____, I feel _____, so I’m going to ask ___” and it can be used to communicate positive and negative comments. For example, “When you keep pointing out areas that I hadn’t considered, I think “wow, what a good point!” and I feel impressed, so I’m going to ask you to continue throwing out those good concepts. Example #2 “When you read stuff into what I’ve written, I think “I sure didn’t mean that, and I don’t think I said that!” and I feel a little sad and diminished, so I’m going to ask you to make an effort to not project or assume, and I will do the same.” It is a format that helps a feeler to narrow down what is bugging them to ONE sentence—as well as utilizing both THINKING and FEELING—as well as stating a request of your partner out loud, so that then the partners can either agree to the request, say no to the request, or suggest an alternative that they can agree on (POJA).

So here are my acronyms:

For a thorough apology, do REPS
R—responsibility (take personal responsibility)
E—empathy (try to understand how the other person might feel)
P—plan (offer a plan to change or a suggestion)
S—safety (give your partner permission to do what they must to feel safe)

For a positive or negative statement
W--When you….
T—I think…
F—I Feel…
S—So, I’m going to ask…

Oh my! It's getting late quickly! We better get to our assignments:

1) Fun. What did you do for fun today? I took a teleclass and learned how to do some computer programming stuff. See??? Fun and THINKING! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> What was your fun? When did you do it? How did you feel afterward??

2) Vocabulary. Today's emotional vocabulary word is "Suspicious." Remember, I'm not looking for a dictionary definition here--more like what does it mean to you and how do you feel when you feel suspicious? Can you identify with feeling suspicious? Are you suspicious or trusting by nature?

3) Check-ins. Did you check in with yourself today? Morning, lunch, dinner, and bedtime? Did you notice how you felt at that moment? Was it easy to tell how you felt, or did you have to get out of thinker mode long enough to feel? Did emotional vocabular come to you fairly easily, or was it hard to find words other than "frustrated" to describe how you felt? Did you jot some notes down like I asked?

4) Empathetic Listening. Hmmm...this is my least favorite part. I dislike having to open myself up to another person--or to anyone who might be lurking and reading. Being that vulnerable is just uncomfortable for me, but I have to discipline myself to do it because it's good for me to be open and honest. It's very scary for me though. I keep thinking I'm going to be hurt again, and then when I am hurt, I feel double betrayed--ya know?? I also worry that when I really need my MB friends to be there for me, that they will let me down and I'll be disappointed.

So...Can you see the feeling words in that paragraph? Are there any that might be subtle emotional words (sometimes they convey a feeling and sometimes they don't)? What about the message--can you hear the emotional message in the paragraph? What is it? Can you identify? Do you ever feel that way? Can you imagine how I might be feeling and put yourself in my shoes? What are some things you could do or say to offer comfort or communicate that you understand? Can you use the W-T-F-S format??

Your true and faithful friend,


CJ

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:
<strong> I know this sounds a bit simple, but the primary feeling I've had most of the day was at peace. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YAY!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Good for you. Peace is a good thing to feel. Especially after a long winter of pain, it can feel like spring coming back to life to just feel SERENITY.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> From 2:00-2:30 I visited with the pastor and I wasn't so peaceful there. He confirms much of what you and W both say, so I found that helpful, but he wasn't helpful answering the questions about why I'm having such a hard time with hearing God. ...He did suggest fasting, so that was something different, and gave a rationale for it as well.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can't say, Tony--I don't know how you fast or what kind of place your heart is in when you fast. When I fast, I prepare my heart to focus on God and be still all day (and I drink OJ so my blood sugar doesn't plummet). I use fasting as a reminder that I control my appetites--ALL of my appetites--and not the other way around. I use fasting as a way to FOCUS my thoughts on spiritual things like God and the people I am praying for, and not think of everyday carnal things like food.

Tony, have you ever been in the South when it is stinking hot out? Like in Georgia during the peak of summer, when the humidity hangs in the air like wet sheets? In the South, there is NO breeze and the heat and humidity just cling to you. Have you ever been there when it's like that? They have an interesting way of dealing with the unconditioner-ed heat down South--they practice being still. During the heat of the day like that, you sit STILL, drink iced tea or lemonade (or both combined), and fan yourself AND THAT'S IT. You don't move, you don't talk all fast and excited, and you just practice being still. This may be what you need to do--practice being still before God.

Oh, I'm telling ya--I'm off to bed. The old gal is finally going before 2am!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />


CJ

CJ,

I have read what you said, but I know I'll need to read it dozens of times more to fully grasp this.

I am very familiar with Georgia summers. I spent a summer at Ft. Gordon in Augusta, as well as three weeks in August at Ft Benning, learning to jump out of perfectly good airplanes.

I'll read and write a more thoughtful (and with feeling) response later.

Thanks,

Tony

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong> Are you getting tired?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope, playing with words and conversing doesn't make me tired. Quite the opposite. After Bible Study last night, I spent about 60-90 minutes talking with one of the men there about computers, cars, marriage, God, you name it.

I was energized and didn't realize time passed so quickly.

I did observe they were trying to lock up the church, so we went outside and talked a while longer <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong>Do you want to just talk Logical Latin for a while to make it easier for you? I will try my best to get your language—and I’ll mirror back to make sure I’m receiving the message you’re sending.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> Exhausted: Emotionally drained, mentally tired beyond the point of caring. When I get to that point, I just want to shut down, go lie down in the bed and take a nap. So tired that the brain cannot find the energy to tell the motor muscles what to do. Yes, I can relate to that. I don't really give hugs anyway. It's not that I don't like them, I like them alot. It's just not something I've offered. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Interesting note: did you notice how you likened emotional exhaustion to being so tired that your brain can’t work? Iiiiiiiiiiiinteresting! Also, kind of out of the blue, you mention that you don’t give hugs. Why did you mention that? I’m sorry, I don’t see the connection between emotional exhaustion and giving hugs FOR YOU. For me, giving a hug takes some emotional energy from me and gives it to them—thus, sometimes I get “hugged out”. But that’s me. Is it somehow significant that you don’t offer hugs, or are you just not a hugger or what?? Are hugs connected to an emotional event for you, or not? I mean—is a hug emotionally significant to you? Have your feelings ever been exhausted?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope, I just don't think to give hugs. I have nothing against them. I like getting them, they feel nice, and my wife used to tell me she liked my hugs. (I'm kinda a big teddy bear, 5'11" 50" chest, 36" waist, 220#, kinda fuzzy most places, etc.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> I'd like to correct what I feel is a mis-conception. While I'm a thinker, please don't go on with the notion that I don't have feelings. I have very deep feelings, very intense feelings. I just don't express them and only use them as a "tie breaker" if the facts support two different decisions. … I do have feelings, I just don't use them as often as other folks do. But my real problem is not expressing my feelings, but picking out and even more difficult, ANTICPATING what someone else might feel. I think the other exercise you have for me may be more beneficial. However, I do understand vocabulary is also important, so I will do my best to expand my vocabulary. (You know, I may be getting it too, because I almost said, "I'll play along..." and decided against that because it make you feel like I was not taking the exercise seriously.) </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, Tony, good for you! I think you really are getting it! The point of this exercise is not to humor me—nor is it to expand your vocabulary that I am confident is quite extensive and exact. No, the point of this exercise is to expand the words you use to describe your feelings, to get you thinking about the subtle differences between some feelings, and to get you to focus and think about at least one emotion every day (other than “frustrated” “happy” and “mad”). It’s an exercise in using, growing, stretching and developing the emotions that you do have.

BTW, I’m not sure how you got the false impression that I thought you didn’t have feelings. I know you have feelings, it’s just that your thinking is dominant. In my mind I liken it to being right-handed. You still HAVE a left hand and you still can write with your left hand—it’s just that your right hand is dominant. Furthermore, I’m confident you can express your emotions just as well as I can express a thought! I have no doubt that you have deep, intense feelings—the trick is to practice conveying them and reading them (through a variety of communication levels) from others.


I tend to agree with you that the other exercises will be more beneficial in developing empathy and connecting to your emotions on a regular basis, but it is my understanding that the goal here is to strengthen the “feelings muscle” and relax the “thinking muscle” so we are going to do things that involve the emotions.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> originally posted by CJ:
<strong> Do you maybe feel emotionally exhausted??</strong>
and the reply from Java:
<strong> Exhausted and confused, stunned, and off balance. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’m sorry to hear you feel like that. I hope some of the mist starts to clear, some of the shock starts to wear off, and that fairly soon you are back to being in balance with who you are.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> originally posted by CJ:
<strong>Today was an unproductive but fun day at work. One of my secretaries was out today, so I had to do all of her work and my work too, and I ended up on the phone all day long answering calls. However, I really enjoyed reconnecting with all my customers, and I love talking to people in general because I like them. Plus, I REALLY enjoyed talking to our locksmiths and dispatching them to their calls. I love joking around with them and being friendly. So, although I'm disappointed I didn't get much work work done, I had a good day and in the end feel satisfied with my day. </strong>
and the reply from Tony:
<strong> fun enjoyed love disappointed satisfied </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow, very good job. I am impressed that you were so perceptive and observant. Now would I totally blow it if I show you some of the more subtle emotional words, or shall I allow you to bask in the glow of your success? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

“Unproductive” is an emotional word for me because it involves faint elements of disappointment and dissatisfaction.

“Reconnecting” is also an emotional word for me because connecting with people is almost an instinctual drive for an INFP. Reconnecting involves relating and linking to another person, and the way I connect to people is via emotions (and some thoughts/ideas).

“Like” is an emotional word, and I think you know that so I won’t explain it a whole lot.

“Talking” is a word that COULD be an emotional word, because when I talk, I’m usually trying to connect or explain or communicate in some way.

“Joking” and “friendly” are feeler words, because they express the concept of being playful and having that kind of relationship where you can laugh with someone. Even when the person is a co-worker and not a close, personal friend, joking and being friendly connotates a relationship that is comfortable, familiar and pleasant.

So, Tony, GREAT JOB!! I am sincerely impressed!!

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I won't argue. I will say I considered may of those words, such as unproductive. I ruled it out because it didn't really convey a feeling, but to me it was a judgment.

I was looking for words that expressed HOW you FELT. It seems I have to look deeper.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong>

* * * * * * * * *
In post #2,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> originally posted by Java:
<strong> Yes, don't fill in emotions that are not expressed. Just like I try to find logic in what W is saying, I think feelers try to fill in the emotions that they feel the thinker (or they) should/would expresses. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MAN!! That is an EXCELLENT point that I had never even considered! Look at that—the student is teaching the master (giggle). Speaking purely for myself here, after I read this I gave it some consideration all day, and upon examining my own heart, I believe this is exactly what I do. I’m not sure if it’s any comfort to know that I don’t fill in with what I think people SHOULD feel—but I do fill in with what * I * would feel or what I have felt in the past. What a stunning revelation! Thank you!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> <strong>…I have a big problem with folks ascribing their feelings to my thoughts. I have a big problem with people putting their motives into my words or actions. Check in with me before you go off and say something like you're trying to hurt someone. You know what, to me It's not logical to hurt someone you love, so I'd never (yes never) do that on purpose. Using your very apt buffalo analogy, does the buffalo try to hurt the butterfly? Nope! And I do not try to hurt my wife. She is hurt because I'm a buffalo, not because I've tried to hurt her. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, you bring up a good point here. I think on an occasion people do project their own thoughts or feelings onto other people, but not always. Based on the way you’ve responded here though, it seems like I must have touched a nerve or something—most likely a nerve that your W hits all the time and maybe you think I’m hitting it too. Here’s the thing, Tony: why would I assume or say that you are TRYING to hurt someone? That makes no common sense to me. You have no reason that I know of to consciously make the effort to try to hurt your W. Furthermore, that I can recall, I do not remember saying anything that suggests you hurt her deliberately or with premeditation or anything!
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, I never said you. I said:

"I have a big problem with folks ascribing their feelings to my thoughts. I have a big problem with people putting their motives into my words or actions."

So I'm just making a general statement.

Seems we are both a bit defensive here. You point out my defensiveness in the following text.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong>


Nope, it’s my observation that you DID hurt her, but mostly because you are tougher and bigger than she is—and being tough and big is not wrong, it just IS. No, buffalos absolutely do not cruelly and with malice of forethought crush butterflies—but the fact is that by not noticing they are there and stepping a little clumsily, the buffalo can crush a butterfly and the end result is the butterfly is no longer existing.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">then there was a bunch of writing that was basically self-explanatory until we came across this little paragraph, originally posted by java:
<strong> See before where I say the buffalo is not trying to hurt the butterfly. I do feel your analogy, while it serves the purpose, is set up to elicit sympathy for butterflies from buffalos. Believe me, I have been hurt by my butterfly, so it does take some effort on my part to suspend reality. How does it feel to me? To me it really feels like she has not told me a thing until just now, and what has she done? She has shouted out that she is unhappy (first time I heard this, not necessarily the first time she said it, because she used my language for the first time) and then ran out the door. So now I'm frustrated. We communicated, she sent a message and I understand the message, she wants out. So I'm thinking, we CAN communicate, so why doesn't she want to communicate. Why didn't she say this 6 months or 6 years ago? This is neither good or bad, it's not a judgment, but simply my perspective on how I perceive what is going on. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tony, you sure are a funny person (btw, that’s a compliment). The buffalo/butterfly analogy is from the book we are reading—and while it does seem to serve its purpose as a visual image of some emotional stuff, I just think it’s funny to think I set it up to elicit sympathy for butterflies. I keep using it and using it as a way of communicating a concept, nothing more. Fact is, if a butterfly goes judo on a buffalo, he doesn’t realize it’s happening, and I can definitely relate to the feeling of trying to get a buffalo’s attention but everything I do seems ineffective. However, that doesn’t mean the buffalo is “bad” or the butterfly is “good” and neither need to change. Look, in nature if a buffalo and a butterfly really wanted to be a couple, the buffalo would have to learn to be more observant and tip toe, and the butterfly would have to beef up and be a little more thick-skinned. The buffalo would have behave in a way that seems very gentle and soft to him, and the butterfly would have to behave in a way that feels very brusque and coarse to her. She would have to learn to make a very loud noise, and he would have to learn to be quieter. He wouldn’t be able to thunder around, and she wouldn’t be able to be all delicate and flimsy.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hear what you are saying about how she might feel. I do understand the point of the analogy.

Let me flesh out why I don't care for it and why I believe it elicits more sympathy for the butterfly than for the buffalo.

Seems it paints the buffalo as much more powerful and perhaps not as cultured as the butterfly. In fact, it paints the butterfly as essentially POWERLESS.

I don't think that is fair to create what appears to be a powerless metaphor.

Why not a buffalo and a whale? They are both powerful, but in their own environment. I understand it too is not a perfect analogy because the terrain shared by a whale and buffalo is probably only found at zoos, LOL.

However, in my analogy, the buffalo roams and flourishes in the logical landscape. While the whale swims in a sea full of emotional currents. Each is very powerful and very mobile in their natural environment, but each has to expend a lot of energy to remain in the environment of the other for a relatively short time.

But my point is, I'm uncomfortable with the idea that the butterfly has little or no power relative to the buffalo.

I would think a liberated woman would be appalled at this metaphor.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong>

However, in this little world, only the buffalo has shown up for gentleness lessons. It wouldn’t make sense for me to teach the buffalo what I would say to the butterfly if she were here. The BUFFALO is here, so I teach him stuff a buffalo needs to know. BTW, if your W were here, I would teach her butterfly stuff, like exercises on how to be logical…how to narrow a whole swirl of emotions down to one sentence…how to present her feelings of tramplement in a way a buffalo would hear…etc. PLUS, I would teach the butterfly that it’s not all the buffalo’s fault. Dude, chapter one for her would be just as painful and defeating feeling for her because she participated in this too and made some MAJOR mistakes. But for now—only the buffalo is here, so I’m teaching you how to be in touch with your butterfly side.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with what you say above.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong>
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> <strong>Yes I'm hurt, no I'm not trying to hurt anyone else. Remember, to me they are just facts. No emotion involved. When I say she had an affair, it is simply the conveyance of a fact. ...Nope, I'm just sharing facts. However, I guess I have a lot to learn, because even facts seem to hurt some people or sound like I'm trying to hurt someone. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, you bring up a good point there. Some “facts” do hurt people. I comprehend that you are capable of saying “she had an affair” to simply convey that it occurred—without all the feelings of going through it—but just because something doesn’t hurt you doesn’t mean that it doesn’t hurt anyone else. OY! What a sentence! Is there an easier way to say that??? Here’s a fact for you—I am short. That does not hurt me.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As long as your feet touch the ground, you are tall enough!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong>
Here’s another fact for you—my exH does not find me attractive. That DOES hurt me. Subsequently, I think we may need to work on some exercises that are empathy builders focusing on “might this hurt someone? Why or why not?”

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> Sometimes it's so frustrating because I'd say 90% of self-help, relationship type books are written from the perspective of helping a thinker become a feeler. Why not the other way around? Often it feels like only the thinker should change. Now I understand I'm the only one here representing our marriage, so I'm the one who has to do all the work. But I think, and I think I hear you saying the same thing, that it is difficult and rare for feelers to try to understand the thinker. So why wouldn't it be just as difficult for a thinker to understand a feeler? Just so you understand, I'm not shirking the work, but want you to know how I feel about this at times. I think this board is largely populated with feelers. And many/most want to change the thinkers. Do many thinkers stick around here? I wonder... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, a couple of things come to mind. First, what you have said here has really made me think. My exH used to say similar things (you want me to change into a feeler) and I never understood why he felt that way, because I was doing lots of work to be more of a thinker. Now, I suspect that he was reading the “self-help” books and interpreting them as you do, and they do seem to have a bit of favoritism toward feelers don’t they? Probably because self-help books are written by feelers! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Second, I’m not sure about everyone else, but I’ve always interpreted relationship improvement to mean that BOTH partners need to learn about each other and BOTH partners need to change. The feelers need to make the effort to understand thinkers, and thinkers need to make the effort to understand feelers. The buffalo needs to learn how to tiptoe, and the butterfly needs to learn how to carry a fry pan. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Third, you really ARE the only one here, but that does not mean you need to do “all” the work. It means that you are willing to do the work that is needed to maintain a healthy relationship—one in which you stretch to understand your partner AND your partner stretches to understand you. Finally, I don’t know if it’s rare for the feelers to try to understand the thinkers—I just think it’s rare for ANY partner to take the time to soften their heart admit that they need to do some changing. It’s SO much easier to blame your partner than to look in the mirror and admit to yourself you’re wrong.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> CJ, maybe I'm lost, so I'll visit this last part later. You used the term "W-T-F-S format" and I'm not clear on this. I looked in the previous page and I skimmed the book a bit. I even did a google search and came back with some terms I don't use in polite or even impolite company. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ohhhh…(blush). I thought I spoke to you about this concept; upon review, I wrote to Standing Together about this tool. The “W-T-F-S” format is an acronym (much like REPS). It stands for “When you___, I think ____, I feel _____, so I’m going to ask ___” and it can be used to communicate positive and negative comments. For example, “When you keep pointing out areas that I hadn’t considered, I think “wow, what a good point!” and I feel impressed, so I’m going to ask you to continue throwing out those good concepts. Example #2 “When you read stuff into what I’ve written, I think “I sure didn’t mean that, and I don’t think I said that!” and I feel a little sad and diminished, so I’m going to ask you to make an effort to not project or assume, and I will do the same.” It is a format that helps a feeler to narrow down what is bugging them to ONE sentence—as well as utilizing both THINKING and FEELING—as well as stating a request of your partner out loud, so that then the partners can either agree to the request, say no to the request, or suggest an alternative that they can agree on (POJA).

So here are my acronyms:

For a thorough apology, do REPS
R—responsibility (take personal responsibility)
E—empathy (try to understand how the other person might feel)
P—plan (offer a plan to change or a suggestion)
S—safety (give your partner permission to do what they must to feel safe)

For a positive or negative statement
W--When you….
T—I think…
F—I Feel…
S—So, I’m going to ask…

Oh my! It's getting late quickly! We better get to our assignments:

1) Fun. What did you do for fun today? I took a teleclass and learned how to do some computer programming stuff. See??? Fun and THINKING! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> What was your fun? When did you do it? How did you feel afterward??

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, in the past 24 hours, I went to Bible study and talked afterwards.

I went to lunch with "the guys" today, and we looked at the ladies there. (No we didn't got to Hooters.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong>
2) Vocabulary. Today's emotional vocabulary word is "Suspicious." Remember, I'm not looking for a dictionary definition here--more like what does it mean to you and how do you feel when you feel suspicious? Can you identify with feeling suspicious? Are you suspicious or trusting by nature?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">People who make emotional appeals cause me to be suspicious. That's right, televangelists, salesmen, commercials, all of it makes an emotional appeal or tries to make you feel inadequate.

I know I'm backing into the answer as I'm telling you how or when I'm inclined to feel suspicious.

It depends, in some situations, I'm suspicious, others, I'm trusting.

I'm sure this will not be a shock to you, but when I get suspicious, I start gathering facts before making a decision.

Or I just tune out.

Infomercial at 2AM telling me that if I buy your package of CD's and books to become a millionare in my bathrobe and boxers <click> ahhh, I found the three stooges, I love those guys... Yep, I tuned out the emotional appeal of the informercial for the more scholarly work of Moe, Larry and Curly. (Never really liked Curly Joe, how about you?)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong>

3) Check-ins. Did you check in with yourself today? Morning, lunch, dinner, and bedtime? Did you notice how you felt at that moment? Was it easy to tell how you felt, or did you have to get out of thinker mode long enough to feel? Did emotional vocabular come to you fairly easily, or was it hard to find words other than "frustrated" to describe how you felt? Did you jot some notes down like I asked?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Morning 3/10 -- Peaceful
Lunch 3/10 -- Happy
Afternoon 3/10 -- A bit stressed (putting together a presentation for tomorrow)
Evening 3/10 -- Not stressed.

That's right, no real emotion, no state, just relaxed now that the presentation is nearly ready. (I'm going back later to proof my slides.) But no real feeling, or certainly nothing strong. Nothing like the feelings I had when my D was born or while I made love to my wife.

So, I can anticipate what you might ask about that. How did I feel when I made love to my wife. I felt like we were really united, we were one person. I was very thankful for the opportunity to make love to her, I felt complete.

How did I feel when my D was born. Incredible joy. The only days that were more joyful were when I accepted Jesus as my savior at 10yo and my wedding day.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong>

4) Empathetic Listening. Hmmm...this is my least favorite part. I dislike having to open myself up to another person--or to anyone who might be lurking and reading. Being that vulnerable is just uncomfortable for me, but I have to discipline myself to do it because it's good for me to be open and honest. It's very scary for me though. I keep thinking I'm going to be hurt again, and then when I am hurt, I feel double betrayed--ya know?? I also worry that when I really need my MB friends to be there for me, that they will let me down and I'll be disappointed.

So...Can you see the feeling words in that paragraph? Are there any that might be subtle emotional words (sometimes they convey a feeling and sometimes they don't)? What about the message--can you hear the emotional message in the paragraph? What is it? Can you identify? Do you ever feel that way? Can you imagine how I might be feeling and put yourself in my shoes? What are some things you could do or say to offer comfort or communicate that you understand? Can you use the W-T-F-S format??

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmm...this is my least favorite part. {expresses a preference} I dislike having to open myself up to another person--or to anyone who might be lurking and reading. Being that vulnerable {vulnerability is a feeling} is just uncomfortable { <---See you say so right there } for me, but I have to { Indicates that this feels like work and not fun } discipline myself to do it because it's good {again a preference or something you find valuable} for me to be open and honest. It's very scary for me though. {just kidding, very scary is certainly a feeling expression } I keep thinking I'm going to be hurt again, and then when I am hurt, I feel double betrayed--ya know?? {You have thoughts about how you MIGHT feel} I also worry that when I really need my MB friends to be there for me, that they will let me down and I'll be disappointed. {Again, you have thoughts about how you might be disappointed. You express feelings and perhaps even feel feelings such as disappointment about things that haven't even occurred. This is what you are trying to tell me about my W, she is afraid SHE will be disappointed again.}

Ok,

The emotional message, you are really uncomfortable with opening yourself up to me or to anyone in such a public setting. You mention this is your least favorite part.

If I understand what you are saying, you are not comfortable talking about yourself. Is that what you are saying?

It certainly is very difficult to know whom to trust. It seems those we trust the most, we give the most power to harm us. It must be tough to balance that fear with a desire to connect with other people on a more than just superficial fashion.

Let me try the W-T-F-S stuff...
“When you___, I think ____, I feel _____, so I’m going to ask ___”

When you express your concerns about vulnerability, I think you may not trust me, I feel concerned, so I'm going to ask you to keep being as open and honest as you are comfortable with.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong>

Your true and faithful friend,


CJ </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">These sure are getting long. I considered thinning this out a bit as we are getting some rather long posts now 8^)

Thanks again,

Tony

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:
<strong> I am very familiar with Georgia summers. I spent a summer at Ft. Gordon in Augusta, as well as three weeks in August at Ft Benning, learning to jump out of perfectly good </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh good. Then you are at least familar with the concept I am talking about--a concept that most in the frozen Great White North would be unable to comprehend! Heehee <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I'm not the kind of person who exists well in that kind of hot, humid environment. It feels wet on my skin all the time, and it's muggy! Anyway, one way that I learned to survive and kind of feel comfortable is to sit on the porch at sunset and early evening, basically sit still, fan myself very slowly with a hand fan, and drink a lemonade or Arnold Palmer. When you sit that still in the heat, any whisp of a breeze feels so soothing and cooling, and it doesn't have to be a big wind--just a gentle breath of wind is good.

This is similar to what I think you need to do to hear God's voice. Right now your life is hot and humid and muggy and moving and frantic. I believe you need to come to a stop, sit on the porch, enjoy the sunset, SIT STILL and feel the gentle breath of God. THEN you'll hear Him, whispering in the trees. Tony, trust me on this one...be still.


CJ

Good evening, Tony! How are you today?? I am energized, but of course it is my power time of day (night). However, I think I feel particularly energized today because I'm really gaining momentum on getting my coaching going, and I'm SO excited!

(Oh man--bad song on the radio. "Open Arms" by Journey. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> )

Clearing throat. Well...let's get right down to it, shall we??

I asked you if you were getting tired translating into Empathetic English, and you replied:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Nope, playing with words and conversing doesn't make me tired. Quite the opposite. After Bible Study last night, I spent about 60-90 minutes talking with one of the men there about computers, cars, marriage, God, you name it. ...I was energized and didn't realize time passed so quickly. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, you're right--of course. I forgot you are an "E" and E's gain energy by being with and talking to and whatever with other people. I'm an "I" and I LOVE people and live to relate to other people, but it expends my energy. I have to recharge my battery so that I CAN go use it on being with people!

*****

Then I asked you if there was some reason why you mentioned that you don't give hugs, and you said:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Nope, I just don't think to give hugs. I have nothing against them. I like getting them, they feel nice, and my wife used to tell me she liked my hugs. (I'm kinda a big teddy bear, 5'11" 50" chest, 36" waist, 220#, kinda fuzzy most places, etc.) </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Boy, I don't know, but it sounds to me like you were created to hug, Tony! I'm envisioning sort of a peach-fuzzy gnome--is that about right? haha! May I ask--do you not think to offer hugs, or are you uncomfortable offering them, or are they just about as interesting as the dictionary?

*****

In the next part, you wrote about my first "empathetic listening" paragraph, and the emotional words that you found (GOOD JOB!)--and the additional, more subtle emotional words that I mentioned:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">[/qb] Well, I won't argue. I will say I considered may of those words, such as unproductive. I ruled it out because it didn't really convey a feeling, but to me it was a judgment.

I was looking for words that expressed HOW you FELT. It seems I have to look deeper.[/qb]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Aaaaaahhh, Grasshopper...most wise. Under normal circumstances, I would agree with you that the additional words I suggested were not traditional "feeling" words. They were words that might have been considered "neutral" but that carried an emotional connoctation. Remember, Tony, our goal here is to STRETCH your emotional muscle and strengthen your empathetic skills.

*****

There was quite a discussion back and forth regarding people assigning their emotions (and I suppose thoughts) to another person, aka: projection. I had said that I had not previously considered that, and after looking at myself I could see that I did do that to people--assigning them the emotions I would probably have if I were in their situation. We were both hit nerves a little, but I think we both realize now that we have some nerves that are a little raw.

*****

Here's a fun suggestion you make:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Let me flesh out why I don't care for it and why I believe it elicits more sympathy for the butterfly than for the buffalo.

Seems it paints the buffalo as much more powerful and perhaps not as cultured as the butterfly. In fact, it paints the butterfly as essentially POWERLESS.

I don't think that is fair to create what appears to be a powerless metaphor.

Why not a buffalo and a whale? They are both powerful, but in their own environment. I understand it too is not a perfect analogy because the terrain shared by a whale and buffalo is probably only found at zoos, LOL.

However, in my analogy, the buffalo roams and flourishes in the logical landscape. While the whale swims in a sea full of emotional currents. Each is very powerful and very mobile in their natural environment, but each has to expend a lot of energy to remain in the environment of the other for a relatively short time.

But my point is, I'm uncomfortable with the idea that the butterfly has little or no power relative to the buffalo.

I would think a liberated woman would be appalled at this metaphor.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh my what an intriguing alternative. Okay, here's my thought: I like the comparison of each being strong and powerful in their own environment, and each having to make great sacrifices to be with the other in their environment. I don't like the fact that this is not how it feels AT ALL. I can not speak for your W, Tony, but I did not feel like a big, strong, powerful whale free to be myself in my own environment--equally regarded and equally large.

I also did not feel powerless though. I felt like if I were left to be myself, just as I like to be, I would be the happiest, most carefree, beautiful, delicate butterfly--cruising on the air, and landing on flowers. What a lovely life!!! I did not feel or seek "fearful" power from being the master of my surroundings--I moreso wanted the power that comes from being exactly the creature I was created to be: a butterfly.

I'm not powerless against the buffalo. I can sit on his nose and tickle him---I can land on his ear and talk to him--I can ride on his back and let him care for me--I can flutter my wings and get the flies off his fur--I can give him butterfly kisses with my eyelashes. There's a lot I can do that he can not! I can soar to the heights and he is always on the ground; I can flash my colors in the sun and he is always brown; I can flutter and be cute and he has to be a big tough buffalo; I can fit under a leaf and stay dry in the rain and he has to stand there and get wet; I can fly away if I'm in danger and he has to stay and fight and maybe get hurt.

I'm not sure if you can tell, but I really identify with the butterfly a LOT more than I identify with being a whale. To me, the whole point of the analogy is not who's more refined or who's "powerful" or not...it's that if each animal is being exactly the animal they are created to be, that the buffalo can inadvertantly cause serious damage to a butterfly. The buffalo is who he is: a strong, steady, dependable, majestic, handsome creature of the land--and the butterfly is who she is: a gentle, fragile, smart and beautiful, resourceful creature of the air.

(HERE'S THE BIG POINT) BUT... if they choose to be a couple together, they both need to adjust their strengths and weaknesses to the other!!

Hey...maybe YOU aren't a buffalo!

*****

I said in my post: "Here’s a fact for you—I am short. That does not hurt me." and you replied:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>As long as your feet touch the ground, you are tall enough!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> giggle. Can I roll my eyes??

*****

I wrote: "I think we may need to work on some exercises that are empathy builders focusing on 'might this hurt someone? Why or why not?' " and I'd like to remember that and add that to our empathetic listening assignment tonight.

*****

Then we discussed the assignments. I wrote:
1) Fun. What did you do for fun today? ...What was your fun? When did you do it? How did you feel afterward??

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Well, in the past 24 hours, I went to Bible study and talked afterwards. ...I went to lunch with "the guys" today, and we looked at the ladies there. (No we didn't got to Hooters.)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YAY!! That DOES sound like fun!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> First, I love Bible studdy, because I LOVE to learn! Second, I love to talk (no DUH). Third I love lunch with guys...(giggle). Oh, man, I'm in a playful mood tonight. I'm glad you actually had some enjoyable times Tony. Good for you.

*****

Then, regarding assignment #2) Vocabulary: "Suspicious", you wrote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>People who make emotional appeals cause me to be suspicious. That's right, televangelists, salesmen, commercials, all of it makes an emotional appeal or tries to make you feel inadequate. ...I know I'm backing into the answer as I'm telling you how or when I'm inclined to feel suspicious.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmm...did you notice that you equate an emotional appeal to feeling inadequate? Why is that? I mean, does one mean the other in your view of the world? In my opinion, a person can be QUITE adequate as a parent, spouse, worker, and charitable-spiritual being and still appeal to their emotions to give just a little more than is "comfortable." But I digress. I'm not trying to jangle your raw nerve here, Tony, but could this be a clue to something bigger--that emotions and inadequacy are related??

to continue:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Infomercial at 2AM telling me that if I buy your package of CD's and books to become a millionare in my bathrobe and boxers <click> ahhh, I found the three stooges, I love those guys... Yep, I tuned out the emotional appeal of the informercial for the more scholarly work of Moe, Larry and Curly. (Never really liked Curly Joe, how about you?)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Haha! At 2am in the morning, I am talking to you the next morning! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Okay, I have to admit you have a point--when the infomercials come on appealing to my pocketbook I tune them out. I guess I just don't feel inadequate for not needing the Deal-A-Meal though!

Regarding the Stooges, I am a classic gal. I like Moe Howard, Larry Fine, and Curly Howard--and Larry is my fav. Once Curly was gone, I never could quite get into Shemp, and Joe Besser and Curly Joe weren't even Stooges in my book, even though they performed and did live stuff in front of audiences.

*****

Regarding assignment #3) Check-ins you wrote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Morning 3/10 -- Peaceful
Lunch 3/10 -- Happy
Afternoon 3/10 -- A bit stressed (putting together a presentation for tomorrow)
Evening 3/10 -- Not stressed.

That's right, no real emotion, no state, just relaxed now that the presentation is nearly ready. (I'm going back later to proof my slides.) But no real feeling, or certainly nothing strong. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you think feelings should feel "strong"? I'm just curious. Boy, it sounds like you had a pretty good day, emotionally. What made the difference? Was it hard to get in touch with your feelings, or easy? "Happy" is not an allowed vocabulary word (remember?) so may I suggest content or satisfied or joyful or ecstatic? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> STRETCH yourself!!

I'm a little surprised to hear you had no emotion this evening. I wonder what that feels like...maybe like the times when I have a quiet mind and just enjoy sitting with no thought, I suppose. It's like being in second gear and driving 45mph--just cruising...neither going fast nor slow.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Nothing like the feelings I had when my D was born or while I made love to my wife.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WHOA!! Boy, Tony, it feels like that only once or twice in your lifetime--and even making love is a very special, sacred thing. I hope that's not the standard to which you hold all other feelings! OY VEY!!

*****

And finally, regarding assignment #4 empathetic listening, you indicated some of the emotional words within the text (good idea--very immediate and interactive).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Hmmm...this is my least favorite part. {expresses a preference} I dislike having to open myself up to another person--or to anyone who might be lurking and reading. Being that vulnerable {vulnerability is a feeling} is just uncomfortable { <---See you say so right there } for me, but I have to { Indicates that this feels like work and not fun } discipline myself to do it because it's good {again a preference or something you find valuable} for me to be open and honest. It's very scary for me though. {just kidding, very scary is certainly a feeling expression } I keep thinking I'm going to be hurt again, and then when I am hurt, I feel double betrayed--ya know?? {You have thoughts about how you MIGHT feel} I also worry that when I really need my MB friends to be there for me, that they will let me down and I'll be disappointed. {Again, you have thoughts about how you might be disappointed. You express feelings and perhaps even feel feelings such as disappointment about things that haven't even occurred. This is what you are trying to tell me about my W, she is afraid SHE will be disappointed again.}</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Very, very good job. I see you are really putting some effort into this and working hard. I'm so pleased! You're looking for the words that have emotional definitions AND looking for the words that tend to indicate or infer a feeling too. Good!

Now, regarding the emotional message, I hope you understand that this was partially (about 70/30) an assignment and partially an expression of how I really feel. I just AM an open person, and I have accepted the fact that part of the price I pay for being open is that occasionally I'm going to be hurt. To me, it's worth it to be open--the pay off is worth more than the isolation of being cut off.

However, in interpreting what I wrote, you did an EXCELLENT job.

You noticed that I felt uncomfortable opening up (I'm more cautious than I used to be). You made the leap from just being uncomfortable with you personally to being uncomfortable with the public forum, and that's a good association/link!! You mirrored back that you thought I was saying I was uncomfortable talking about myself, and then just to confirm, you asked me if that's what I meant. (EXTRA CREDIT FOR THAT ONE!!)

One part that you wrote, I want to actually address in my own voice:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>It certainly is very difficult to know whom to trust. It seems those we trust the most, we give the most power to harm us. It must be tough to balance that fear with a desire to connect with other people on a more than just superficial fashion.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not going to kid you, Tony. It is often difficult for me to know whom to trust. I tend to WANT to trust people. One thing for which I am very thankful is that I have learned how to judge trustworthiness a lot more logically because of my ex's A. If the words match the actions, then I can trust. If the words do not match the actions, then do not trust.

And for me, it is a FORMIDABLE task to balance the fear of trusting and the desire to connect with people. I WANT to trust them!! I really want to connect to people and see the good in them and believe in them. Sigh. This is a good example of an instance where my brain must outweigh my feelings...even if I FEEL something, I need to trust my head and intuition. My feelings WILL eventually follow.

*****

You wrote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Let me try the W-T-F-S stuff...
“When you___, I think ____, I feel _____, so I’m going to ask ___”

When you express your concerns about vulnerability, I think you may not trust me, I feel concerned, so I'm going to ask you to keep being as open and honest as you are comfortable with.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, you are a model student, Tony! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Can I clone you?? heehee That was a great w-t-f-s, very well applied and very well said. Thanks!

My next post will be the assignments for today.


CJ

1) Fun: What did you do today that was pleasant? When? Did anyone do it with you? What is something fun you would like to plan for the weekend?

I know you don't ask me, but do you mind if I tell you what I do for fun? I went to my ladies' support group tonight, and it was AWESOME. I love (love, love, love, love) helping women who are abuse survivors--my heart just does a little happy dance. I joked with my co-workers all day today because I love to kid around. Imagine that...a FUNNY office manager! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I played toes with my puppy (he's so funny and scraggley looking) and I scratched my cat. I listened to my music.

2) Vocabulary: today's word is "confident". How does confidence FEEL? When are you confident? What makes you feel confident? Is confidence a positive emotion or a prideful emotion? Do you identify yourself as confident?

3) Check in: I'm going to be more specific this time...check in when you are driving on your way to work--when you are at lunch--when you are getting home--and right before you go to bed.

4) Empathetic listening and empathetic responding, with an emphasis on "Might this hurt someone? Why or why not?"

Okay, I'm graduating you to a new level on this one buddy. Continue to do what we've been doing (listen for feeling/emotional words in what I write--pointing out the words that are emotional words and the not-so-traditional words that might be indicating or inferring a "feeling").

Here's your new skill: respond in an empathetic way. That means respond to the person by focusing on how they might be feeling. Here's an example:

CJ: "My son got detention in school yesterday and my exH called me up screaming and raving about what a bad parent I am."

Java: "Wow, that must have really been upsetting. I bet you feel demolished."

Does that make sense? Do you have any questions?? Conclude your response by explaining if you think the writer was HURT by what happened or was said, and why or why not. For example: "In this example, the writer would feel hurt, because she was screamed at and called a bad parent. That response was abusive."

Here's the empathetic listening and responding paragraph. Just to be clear, this is a real paragraph written in my real voice with my real thoughts:

"March 11th is my wedding anniversary--my first one since the divorce was final. God, I can't believe we really aren't married anymore! This was going to be our Alaska Cruise anniversary, and now I guess I'll never see Alaska. March 11th--a day that will go down in infamy. Gosh, what do I do? Should I cry and mope? I could wallow in loneliness or throw a pity party. Should I buy myself some flowers? Maybe I'll pierce my eyebrow or get a tatoo to eternally mark the event. I'm sick of being upbeat and looking to the future--I don't get to celebrate my anniversary anymore! I am not married anymore! I think that deserves one day of wierdness. I'm allowed to be sad, I think."

5) Re-read chapter 2 and let's begin discussing "Opening a closed spirit." To keep it simple, let's just go through "What happens when your wife's spirit closes."

I think I'll sign off for now. See ya tomorrow.


CJ

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FaithfulWife:
<strong> 1) Fun: What did you do today that was pleasant? When? Did anyone do it with you? What is something fun you would like to plan for the weekend?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fun, not really sure I've taken time to have fun today. I did enjoy my presentation. I got to talk for two hours 8^) briefing my the boss of my boss on my three largest customers.

Well, I did work out. Yes, buff is becoming an all encompasing word, LOL. I spent some time reading last months Car and Driver (or was it Road and Track) with the 2005 Corvette and Mustang on the cover.

I think pretty soon, I'll be back to 90 minute workouts. Pre-Cancer and pre-meeting my wife, I used to do aerobics 3 days a week. I did a 60 minute step class followed by a 30 minute abdominal class. I never asked any of the ladies out. I got asked out a few times, and another pair questioned my sexuality since they didn't see me leering or trying to pick them up.

I just smiled and said I was straight and pretty picky.

So I guess I had fun.

Oh! I had an old jar of peanut butter, almost empty, so I turned my dog loose on it. He loves peanut butter. I recall putting peanut butter on the belly of SD and then having him lick it off. That was hilarious.

Well tonight, I let him have the jar as I said, and he struggled, but got his tongue down there and licked it all out.

Then I saved about $7 on groceries on a $77 dollar ticket, so I got probably two weeks worth of food for me for under $70, out the door.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Originally posted by CJ:<strong>

I know you don't ask me, but do you mind if I tell you what I do for fun? I went to my ladies' support group tonight, and it was AWESOME. I love (love, love, love, love) helping women who are abuse survivors--my heart just does a little happy dance. I joked with my co-workers all day today because I love to kid around. Imagine that...a FUNNY office manager! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I played toes with my puppy (he's so funny and scraggley looking) and I scratched my cat. I listened to my music.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do suppose that is rather rude. I don't know if it is from being self centered, or simply so many failed attempts at getting DW to share with me what she is doing, say with the girls, that I just don't bother anymore.

I dunno if it is chicken and egg thing or what. Maybe I never asked so she never told. However, it's more likely that I got tired of asking because I a conversation would go like this:

jSC: So what did you and the girls do?

Mrs jSC: We were out.

jSC: Where?

Mrs jSC: The store.

jSC: Which store?

Mrs jSC: The grocery store...

And so on. So I guess I'm just tired of asking anymore. Of course you read my writings. I posted my grocery list two weeks ago. BTW, if you can find that thread, I paid $109.51 before taxes on 2-26-04.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Originally posted by CJ:<strong>
2) Vocabulary: today's word is "confident". How does confidence FEEL? When are you confident? What makes you feel confident? Is confidence a positive emotion or a prideful emotion? Do you identify yourself as confident?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Confident. How does that feel? I feel tall. I recall when I was a young Lieutenant in the Army standing before my platoon, feeling like I was on top of the world. I was in charge! I felt 100 feet tall.

I'm confident most of the time. It's probably easier to say when I'm not confident. When I'm one on one with someone. Perhaps I'm afraid to open up. But I've always been more comfortable standing in front of a group of people and talking than having a heart to heart with one person.

My confidence sometimes manifests itself or appears to others as pride. However, it is mostly positive.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Originally posted by CJ:<strong>
3) Check in: I'm going to be more specific this time...check in when you are driving on your way to work--when you are at lunch--when you are getting home--and right before you go to bed.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is part I really hate. I'm not sure I really feel anything.

I drove to work. I listened to the local Christian radio station, but I don't even remember what the lesson was about. Oh yeah, it was about the creation story.

Lunch was a fast dash from the office to meet with a co-worker having issues with a machine he was struggling to repair. I suppose there was some irritation as well. Not really mad, and certainly not happy.

I met this co-worker at Burger King. He ordered, I ordered a Whopper w/Cheese and Onion Rings. Well the guy two persons after me in line ordered TWO Whopper w/Cheese sandwhiches and was servered BEFORE me.

So I suggested that if they didn't have the onion rings ready, that they just give me the sandwhich. (Using logic, I figured they filled the order they could fill and got that customer out the door while they were waiting to cook my onion rings.) The manager says, Oh, I'll make your SANDWICH and makes me a fresh one, and goes and pulls out Onion Rings that had been sitting there all along.

So I thanked him, but was a little puzzled why the later customer got served first. It certainly didn't ruin my day, nor did I throw any sort of fit. I was just puzzled.

Dinner time, well, it came late as I mentioned before, after 7PM, as I finished my workout around 7pm. No real feelings there either. I don't really know how to explain it. I just grilled my salmon. Made a salad, adding some fresh tomato and onion, and drank a large mug of water.

Did some grocery shopping, was flirtatous with the lady at the Customer Service counter who told me two weeks ago all men were pigs (joking, I think?) So I felt a little flirtaous as I pushed my shopping cart full of fruit, vegetables, meat and very few bread or prepared food products.

(I did get a FREE candybar, and a FREE pack of tic-tacs with my coupons.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Originally posted by CJ:<strong>

4) Empathetic listening and empathetic responding, with an emphasis on "Might this hurt someone? Why or why not?"

Okay, I'm graduating you to a new level on this one buddy. Continue to do what we've been doing (listen for feeling/emotional words in what I write--pointing out the words that are emotional words and the not-so-traditional words that might be indicating or inferring a "feeling").

Here's your new skill: respond in an empathetic way. That means respond to the person by focusing on how they might be feeling. Here's an example:

CJ: "My son got detention in school yesterday and my exH called me up screaming and raving about what a bad parent I am."

Java: "Wow, that must have really been upsetting. I bet you feel demolished."

Does that make sense? Do you have any questions?? Conclude your response by explaining if you think the writer was HURT by what happened or was said, and why or why not. For example: "In this example, the writer would feel hurt, because she was screamed at and called a bad parent. That response was abusive."

Here's the empathetic listening and responding paragraph. Just to be clear, this is a real paragraph written in my real voice with my real thoughts:

"March 11th is my wedding anniversary--my first one since the divorce was final. God, I can't believe we really aren't married anymore! This was going to be our Alaska Cruise anniversary, and now I guess I'll never see Alaska. March 11th--a day that will go down in infamy. Gosh, what do I do? Should I cry and mope? I could wallow in loneliness or throw a pity party. Should I buy myself some flowers? Maybe I'll pierce my eyebrow or get a tatoo to eternally mark the event. I'm sick of being upbeat and looking to the future--I don't get to celebrate my anniversary anymore! I am not married anymore! I think that deserves one day of wierdness. I'm allowed to be sad, I think."

5) Re-read chapter 2 and let's begin discussing "Opening a closed spirit." To keep it simple, let's just go through "What happens when your wife's spirit closes."

I think I'll sign off for now. See ya tomorrow.


CJ </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'll add more later. I suddenly hit a wall, so I'll be up at 4:00am reading and doing the rest of my assignment.

However, I sorta did some of it in an e-mail already.

"No comments on the jokes?" asks a curious jSC

L8R,

Buff

Tony,

I'm not really in the mindset to study or even really to talk all that much. Can we go a little light on that tonite?

Let's talk cars. I read a wonderful article on the way Ford is reviving the Mustang GT--that was Road and Track I think. Also, my favorite article was a comparison of the new BMW and the Benz CLK series! Yowza! Those cars are BUILT!! There was a good little article on the new 2005 C6 Corvette convertible, and how it's a little smaller and tighter. Yum. My son is an absolute Corvette FREAK. I gotta stay up to date! Hey...did ya hear? Mazda is spicing up the Miata! Oh, I love those zippy little cars!! Just imagine the cutest little hot car ever with the smallest little middle-aged woman ever! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I like cars. Thanks for cheering me up. I think I might check out www.maximum-cars.com for a few minutes of enjoyment.

Sigh. Okay...here's the truth. I just don't feel like being chipper. I'm off to read my car mags and think about restoring a GTO. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


CJ

<small>[ March 12, 2004, 12:57 AM: Message edited by: FaithfulWife ]</small>

CJ,

I got a late start today. So I'll come back to this later. It's probably good to take a break anyway.

I haven't forgotten, I've just not come up with the time to give it much thought yet.

We have 4 of our 6 SSE's out today in various and sundry fashion so it could become insanely busy at the drop of a hat.

Tony

I started to work on this and have to give it up, but I want to leave my text here...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Originally posted by CJ: <strong>

4) Empathetic listening and empathetic responding, with an emphasis on "Might this hurt someone? Why or why not?"

Okay, I'm graduating you to a new level on this one buddy. Continue to do what we've been doing (listen for feeling/emotional words in what I write--pointing out the words that are emotional words and the not-so-traditional words that might be indicating or inferring a "feeling").

Here's your new skill: respond in an empathetic way. That means respond to the person by focusing on how they might be feeling. Here's an example:

CJ: "My son got detention in school yesterday and my exH called me up screaming and raving about what a bad parent I am."

Java: "Wow, that must have really been upsetting. I bet you feel demolished."

Does that make sense? Do you have any questions?? Conclude your response by explaining if you think the writer was HURT by what happened or was said, and why or why not. For example: "In this example, the writer would feel hurt, because she was screamed at and called a bad parent. That response was abusive."

Here's the empathetic listening and responding paragraph. Just to be clear, this is a real paragraph written in my real voice with my real thoughts:

"March 11th is my wedding anniversary--my first one since the divorce was final. God, I can't believe we really aren't married anymore! This was going to be our Alaska Cruise anniversary, and now I guess I'll never see Alaska. March 11th--a day that will go down in infamy. Gosh, what do I do? Should I cry and mope? I could wallow in loneliness or throw a pity party. Should I buy myself some flowers? Maybe I'll pierce my eyebrow or get a tatoo to eternally mark the event. I'm sick of being upbeat and looking to the future--I don't get to celebrate my anniversary anymore! I am not married anymore! I think that deserves one day of wierdness. I'm allowed to be sad, I think."

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Originally Posted by CJ:
<strong>

5) Re-read chapter 2 and let's begin discussing "Opening a closed spirit." To keep it simple, let's just go through "What happens when your wife's spirit closes."

I think I'll sign off for now. See ya tomorrow.


CJ </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

This last post didn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Did I miss something or did it not post right or something??

Did you have a good weekend off? Are you about ready to resume your studies??

Let's go over the 4 normal assignments:

1) Fun

2) Vocabulary

3) Check-in

4) Empathetic listening and empathetic response with emphasis on "How might the writer be feeling" and "Does the writer hurt?"


Did you do anything fun over the weekend?? Remember, you don't necessarily have to write what you did, just remember to let yourself have some joy in your life every day.

I can't remember if we chose an emotional vocabulary word for the weekend, so the new emotion is "Abandoned".

I realize that check-in is difficult for you because there are some times when you do not feel as if you have an emotion at that time; however I would like you to keep checking in with yourself four times a day--and try to dig a little deeper. Do you feel something but your thoughts are so strong that they drown it out? Do you feel something that you are purposely trying to NOT feel?

And finally, empathetic listening and empathetic responding. This is going to be a trick, Tony, and you'll understand when you read it. Just do your best to listen with emotional understanding and try to respond with what you think the writer is feeling:

"I usually work 8am - 5pm, but tomorrow I have a 6:30am meeting I HAVE to go to or it will look bad to my boss. So I asked my exH if he would mind driving the kids to school in the morning and he said he wanted them to stay at his house EVERY Sunday night! I just need some help, and now he's trying to take my kids away from me! Why can't he ever just help me and make my life a little easier without throwing it up in my face? If I ever admit I can't do it all myself, he uses it as a weapon against me, and yet I CAN'T do it all by myself and it's killing me. I feel so inadequate. If I give him an inch, he never says thank you--he takes a mile! AARRGGHH!!!"

So Tony, what emotions does this writer feel? Dig deeper and look for some of the more subtle emotional words. And Tony, how might you respond to this writer to indicate that you can understand how they feel? What words could you use?

Stretch yourself here, buddy. TRY--you can do it. You are doing so well, and I am so impressed with your progress! Let's get going on our week.


CJ