I'm making efforts to set boundaries with myself and in my marriage after reading Boundaries in Marriage. Over the last week I feel like I'm spinning my wheels. When opportunities arise to address issues, I find myself wanting to just bite my H's head off. Things have been pent up for so long, they feel like a dam is breaking and everything hurtful wants to rush forth. LB's are flying high around here. <P>I can really use some help here with how to do this gracefully.

lonesome heart,<P>I was thinking of you this morning and was going to start a new post asking how you are doing. I have really only seen parts of what your struggles are, but I think I can say I KNOW how you feel. It is very difficult to set the boundaries, especially when the things the other person is doing directly affect you. I don't have trouble with it when it doesn't affect me (things that only affect my husband), but in a family, many things a H does will affect us and that is harder to know how to live with it.<P>I want to say more, but also want to be careful to build up and not get on my own vent. Just know for now, I am with you in this same kind of struggle and am praying for you. It IS hard! Like a dance that is always out of step.<P>One thing I have begun to realize is how I have contributed. I am/was very over-responsible, taking care of practically everything, anticipating all the needs and filling them, etc. I have stopped many of those behaviors, but we have a ways to go. It really is best when both are working on it. We are just starting to do that, but the old patterns/behaviors are persistent - and it takes time to learn new ones.<P>Keep me updated and vent here if you must. That does help. I know prayer is also very helpful - to get our hearts right and enable us to do supernaturally what we can't do ourselves. <P>Be encouraged lonesomeheart, your heart is in the right place and God notices everything. Remember Sarah's maidservant Hagar who ran off to the wilderness because she was being so tormented by Sarah? God met Hagar there. He is El Roi - the God who sees. He sees and knows your trials and your heart to do right. It comforts me to know He completely understands.

Hi lonesome!<P>All I can tell you is what I am trying to do. I do write stuff out in my journal, clarifying for myself exactly what boundary I want to set, the purpose, etc, so that I feel confident as I pray and write, that I am making the step that is godly. I will write out some wordings even, so that when I finally do say something, I am more easily able to verbalize some of the stuff I have been writing.<P>Kind of like, honey, I have been thinking about what you said the other day about such and such. It really botheres me and I had to sit down and figure out why. This is what I have discovered about it and this is what I feel about it and this is what I have chosen to do about it. (H nows screams, yells, rants, etc) Honey, I realize that you do not like the decision I have made, but my stance remains in this case. When you have calmed down perhaps we can talk about it further, but I really think it is more harmful for our marriage to get caught up in a some kind of yelling match, so I am going to take a few minutes doing whatever and in say a half hour if you feel you are calm enough and want to talk further, let me know.<P>It may sound corny, but it is working to some degree in many of my relationships. I walked into the office today and calmly asked the boss if he had found a replacement yet for me. He said no, but he had a couple of people to call back today. I said okay, well I need to give you the information that I am available until the 30th to work for you or to train someone. I am going to CA in October and my side business is increasing and I will not have time after that.<P>It went so smoothly, the man not only thanked me for hanging around until the 30th, he gave me a raise on the database portion of my job that I plan to continue doing.

lonesome heart,<P>I am constantly thinking of you because I know how trying your situation can be. It is so hard to explain to others - because (if I am remember correctly) - it is the lack of support and involvement, the withdrawal and emptiness you have to deal with. And others don't necessarily understand - maybe your spouse appears very gentle and "nice" - and I'm sure he is. But still there is something very real lacking. That is very painful and it can make you feel very despairing and hopeless. You have probably realized you cannot change someone else. How do you deal with the emptiness on the other side?<P>Looking back, one thing I realize is I did not pray enough for my husband and marriage. I was mostly just trying to change things and work on things in my own might. That didn't work.<P>It may be hard to think of this, but most likely your spouse is not behaving this way to hurt you. He probably has some deep hurts and fears (from way back) that cause him to withdraw. I am just beginning to see that about my husband. Even so, I, too, have quite a bit of resentment built up over the years also and it is hard to be compassionate.<P>If you can, try to think why you behave the way you do (maybe overly responsible?) and why he may behave the way he does (hurt and withdrawn). And pray.<P>Will your husband go to a counselor? Does he have anyone else holding him accountable (besides you)? Is he at least willing to face any of this with you? <P>My husband and I are reading a good book called "Hiding from Love" by John Townsend. It addresses the reasons we withdraw and don't enter into intimate relationships with others. Even with more awareness, though, time for healing is required. <P>Sorry, this probably isn't very helpful. Just want you to know I do understand, it is hard, and you are missing some very important needs that should be addressed.<P>God understands.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>It may be hard to think of this, but most likely your spouse is not behaving this way to hurt you. He probably has some deep hurts and fears (from way back) that cause him to withdraw. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My H is a Vietnam vet, and I often wonder what he'd be like if that experience could be erased from his life. He must have a dozen guardian angels to even be alive. His nightmares went away the first year we were married, but I know that time of his life will always affect him. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If you can, try to think why you behave the way you do (maybe overly responsible?) and why he may behave the way he does (hurt and withdrawn). And pray.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Before I found MB I was ready to call it quits. We're in horrible shape financially, but I think we're possibly still salvagable. Quite honestly, what's keeping me under the same roof with him right now is two things: 1) splitting up at this time is a kiss of certain financial death; 2) I know I could manage, but I think he'd end up under a bridge. <P>In the back of my mind I still think in terms of ending this marriage. It's not much of a marriage anyway. His passion is tending and nurturing a beautiful garden in his back yard. Nothing else seems to matter to him. He gets to do what he wants, occupying himself in artistic endeavors. I've spent many years now trying to be supportive of him, hoping he'd make a living as an artist someday. Now I feel that I was tricked by him, that he never had any intention of becoming self sufficient. I feel used and unloved. I'm hoping to work through our financial disaster, get him to where he can support himself and afford to live in this house without me. I've lost all interest in restoring intimacy with him. It's been gone too long already. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Will your husband go to a counselor? Does he have anyone else holding him accountable (besides you)? Is he at least willing to face any of this with you? <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Not, not, and not. I do have support of two close friends, however, who are working to get him on his artistic feet. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>God understands.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I hope so sifted. I try so hard to say my prayers and keep a positive attitude. Without the lovely ladies here in this forum I would feel very much alone. I'm so filled with anger and doubts. My H is not a Christian, and I'm not sure that I am either. I've prayed for his heart to be softened. Anything beyond that just sticks in my throat. <P>Thank you for thinking of me today sifted and SueB. <P>

lonesome heart,<P>I only have a few minutes and it will be a busy day today, so I may not be able to get back on. Just want to thank you for answering some questions and giving more of your story. My heart goes out today and I "hear" your pain, hurt, disappointment and despair. <P>It really sounds like your husband is not facing some big issues in his life. Does he realize you are at this point of utter despair and ready to leave? Maybe he doesn't think you every will.<P>Are you in counseling for yourself? It is good you have two close friends. Do you have a pastor who can counsel you? It could help to clarify your situation and how to move forward.<P>Why do you feel unsure you are a Christian?<P>Sorry to have so many questions again. I am thinking of you today and praying for you. You aren't alone. There is a God who cares for you.

Thanks for the quick note, sifted. I'm not a church goer, don't have a pastor, can't ever picture myself praising God out loud with anyone within earshot. I do believe in a supreme being, but only in a generic sense. I want to be a better person. I find strength in the support I find here. I hope that I don't offend anyone. When I try to say the kind of beautiful prayers SueB, hw, and other post here, I just can't say the same sort of prayers honestly. When I read the Bible, I have a mindset similar to trying on shoes -- giving something a try, but not sure if I will really buy it. I've been praying since I posted here first. I'm not making the progress I desired in this amount of time and now feel like God is as absent as the love from my marriage. Maybe this is the part where I become acutely aware of the enemy. Now that part seems very real me. <weak grin><P>My H did several things that hurt my feelings this weekend. We had a close friend from out of town as a houseguest. Over dinner last night the friend commented on how thoughtful of other people my H is. One of us must be blind. H's utter lack of thoughtfulness toward other people most of the time is high on my list of dislikes toward my H. H's words don't match his actions. <P>Here's an example. H, three friends, and I were standing in a circle talking. It was a bit of a loose circle, I admit. My H took a step to his right. The effect of that move was his standing directly in front of me. All of a sudden, I'm looking at his back, and I'm outside the circle. <P>Tonight we were talking about the wonderful circle of friends we have and the many talents within that circle. One artist he has encouraged just finished a beautiful design. H said how he's always tried to encourage talent when he sees it. That comment cut through me like a knife. He gives me no encouragement in work I do. He's highly critical of my efforts. Positive responses to ideas I have are absent. <P>I find myself wishing a rich widow would latch onto him and give me a ticket out of this marriage. I've mentioned before that our financial situation is disastrous. Some good ideas were discussed this weekend that could possibly change that. Over the last three years, though, I see a consistent behavior in my H where he has lots of great ideas. They all have two things in common. The work gets done by someone besides him, or the earnings are permanently in the future. With the right combination of people, these latest ideas are within grasp. I'm just not sure I can work toward this new goal without ripping out his juggular vein. Maybe I just have a case of PMS -- for the last two weeks and still counting. I apologize for this not being very Bible-studyish, but I don't want anyone to wonder if I departed the planet already. <P>Please, Lord, let this time in my life be the darkest part of night before the dawn. I'm hanging by a frazzled thread and a prayer. Amen.

Hi lonesome heart,<P>Thanks for the update. Your husband sounds similar to mine. It used to always bother me that he would never introduce me to people he knew. I would just stand there while he talked to them. It was as if I didn't exist. When we would go to the grocery store, he would just take off and go wherever he wanted, as if I wasn't there. I would spend half my time tracking him down. We have a group from church that meets at our home once/month. He coordinates it. Just this past month he called everyone to cancel the meeting, but never told me. I had to tell him that I am also a member of the group and it would be respectful to let me know also. It just never occurred to him to consider me. There are lots of examples like this. He also never could really encourage me or be happy for my successes. I was always hurt by his seemingly uncaring and indifferent attitude towards me. I am realizing most of this is due to lack of skill and a basic unawareness of how to honor and respect another person. I really think he never learned that. It helps me to realize it wasn't ever really intentional.<P>This is not a vent, just a way to let you know you aren't really alone. I thnk it sometimes helps to share stories. That is my hope - not to cause discouragement, but to let you know you aren't alone. Now my husband is slowly becoming aware of these things and is making an effort. He has to learn how to show that he values me - and it takes time. I have to be patient and help him by pointing things out (in a gracious way - that is something I have to learn!).<P>So, your husband sounds kind of like mine (what personality type is he?). Artistic, spontaneous, impulsive... I found out my husband does care about me, he just hadn't learned how to show it. Plus he had a lot of passive aggresive behaviors since he is a conflict avoider.<P>The sad thing is (and I hate to tell you this part), it came down to him almost losing me before anything really got his attention. I never planned it that way and I don't recommend it, but it is how God is bringing some good out of it for us.<P>lonesome, I think I can relate to some of your struggles. I know none of us have exactly the same situations, but there are similarities and trends.<P>You say you don't think you can pray like SueB or hw. Their prayers are beautifully worded, I agree - and a blessing to us all. But lonesome, don't compare yourself. Just be blessed by their prayers, but know your prayers, if they come from your heart, are every bit as beautiful when they reach God. He looks upon our hearts. He loves to hear us speak from our heart and He does listen. He hears you. I encourage you to ask Him to show Himself to you. Ask Him to encourage your heart and make Himself known. That is His desire. I encourage you to read your Bible and ask God to reveal Himself in what you read. <P>Thank you for your honesty. That is what God desires also. Keep reading and posting. You are not alone.<p>[This message has been edited by siftedlikewheat (edited September 18, 2000).]

Thank you sifted for sharing. Our H's do sound very similar. Some of the things he does (or lack thereof) are nothing earthshattering by any means, but the ongoing repetition of annoying behavior makes my blood pressure rise when they happen. I know I need to work on it, and I need to do it with grace. Some of the things are just plain bad manners, like your H neglecting to inform you of a cancelled meeting, or my H cutting me out of a conversation and turning his back on me. Southern hospitality is deeply ingrained in my psyche, and his behavior rankles my sensibilities. <P>Even before I found the MB site, I tried to work on his manners. When friends come over, I believe it's important (for both of us) to greet them at the door and welcome them into our home. We had bitter arguments over this. He prefers to run out the back door and be in the garden while I welcome the guests at the front door alone. There have been times when a visitor would come to the house and he never even said hello or acknowledged their presence. To me it symbolizes how unimportant other people are to him, but I limit my efforts to the topic of manners. <P>The bitter arguments usually boil down to the same theme: why can't I accept him the way he is? (Because I'd like to be married to adult who isn't a jerk!!!!) I censor my thoughts and say to him that he can choose to engage in any behavior he wants. All I'm doing is telling him his behavior is rude, that he needs to be aware that his behavior is rude. His behavior in the future is his own INFORMED choice. <P>There are several things he did last weekend that hurt my feelings. I've calmed down now, but I know the same things will occur again in the future. I need to read the boundaries book some more. How do they put it? My H doesn't hurt my feelings, but it's my reaction to his actions that cause the pain. <P>Ladies, when there's a number of things to choose from in setting boundaries, do you find it better to pick an "easy target" that can probably be fixed within the foreseeable future? Or would time be better spent working on the worst problem that will take longer?<P>To make this long post even longer, I'll describe what I see as one of our worst problems: his conversation and listening skills. He has a habit of saying nothing when I say something to him. So if I'm making a request of him, or informing him of a meeting date, phone message etc., I don't know if he's ignoring me or hearing me and just not responding. His hearing isn't as good as it used to be. In addition, he gets incredibly annoyed at repeated requests. I feel like I'm constantly being baited into a trap of being the "bad guy." If he doesn't hear me, then I'm the bad guy for not telling him something. If I repeat something that he actually heard previously, then I'm the bad guy again for henpecking him. That's just in regard to his ability to hear. <P>The deeper and much more difficult issue is his ability to listen. He doesn't seem to understand that there's a difference between hearing and listening. Hearing is one of his five senses. Listening is a skill. He's very rude in the conversation department. He doesn't listen well. He interrupts. Even while I was addressing a group of 20 people last Saturday, he interrupted me to bring up a completely different topic before I had finished my piece. grrrrr <P>I want to set up an agreement with him that will allow me to avoid the "bad guy" role. I don't mind repeating something that he was unable to hear. Repeating myself because he failed to listen has been wearing me thin for a long time. I'm open to suggestions on how to accomplish this with grace.

lonesome heart,<P>Just saw your beautiful prayer on the other thread - spoken from your heart, reaching upward towards God.<P>Be encouraged, I am familiar with many of the same trials you have. I know one-sided conversations (no reply or answer), not listening (or forgetting, not paying attention...). I do believe communication is a skill that can be learned. Our part is to learn the proper boundaries and look at the log in our own eye first. I am struggling with this lately, so I appreciated your prayer about re-focusing on the good things.<P>"Be still and know that He is God".