This is a continuation of a discussion from the GQ2 forum. <p>FHL asked what my goals were re: my intended visit with OW. (I believe the Lord is calling me to speak with the OW, and speak the truth in love.) FHL and I come from the same roots - LCMS, (LCMS believes in "close" communion - FHL now goes to a Wisconsin Synod church and I am still loyal to Missouri Synod.) OW and myself have been raised LCMS.<p>My SD, H, and SIL likewise are confirmed LCMS as adults, but probably are not on the same page as I am re: betrayal at the communion table. <p>FHL - Actually, I am not sure what I will say to her. I just know I need to let the love within me (Through Jesus Christ) show. <p>Goals....
I think I need to explain how betrayed I felt - by her - as a fellow LCMS Christian, especially at the communion table - and let her know that I felt the Lord loves her - and is moving me to speak to her in that love.<p>I know I am being wishful if I think she is going to be honest and recognize this, so perhaps my goal is only to plant the seeds and let the love of the Lord for her shine through. Which is going to take another bout of Divine Intervention!<p>At the communion table - and in "close" communion, we are in communion with Christs body and blood, for the forgiveness of sins. LCMS Christians take this very seriously - that you risk judgment for your sins when you commune with a unrepentent heart - or unrepentent believers or non-believers. So that is why we are to examine ourselves before we approach the communion table. <p>Can you expand on the 'close' part of the communion (LCMS)? Was she bringing judgment to all of us at the communion table? I feel like she betrayed me at the communion table.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>OK, I'm here, but where are you?
And poof, your goals are gone and my feeble brain can't remember them all...<p>To be honest, I need to study the fine points of close communion. I know WHY we do it, but exactly what the relationship is between communicants is something I never needed to truly explore.<p>I am sure her own choice in taking communion does not bring judgement upon you. We are all accountable for ourselves before God, so you can't be accountable for her. Of course you are accountable for yourself. And the sticky part may come in how well your heart is prepared with her there at the altar with you.<p>I know I couldn't prepare my heart well enough to withstand OW beside me.<p>I know it is not right to judge another's heart, but it would seem to me, that she may be in church more out of custom and culture than actual faith.<p>Beside's the issue YOU have with her, how is her lifestyle?<p>And since we are all sinners, of course your congregation is not perfect, but how would you describe the spiritual climate of your congregation?<hr></blockquote><p>Board hopper! ha ha<p>Well, when I went to the communion table I didn't KNOW what I now know. I would have joined the church, but something just wasn't right. Didn't know what, then. I still maintain my membership in CA - however, 7 miles away I am attending a different LCMS (but haven't transferred my membership.) <p>Her lifestyle mirrors my husbands family. As you know, my FIL and MIL used to own the bar right behind our house. (I prayed for that bar to close and it is now closed PTL!) They sold it and moved back to CA and new owners have since closed it.<p>It was the hangout for the whole town - and when my H moved out here to MN, (while I was in CA) he went to the bar nightly. She is pretty much a regular in the bars. He was too at that time. <p>When I go to the communion table, I do confess my sins - and tell the Lord that I forgive my enemies (and name them) and to bless them, but that I also ask Him to heal my heart from any bitterness. It is like Sheryl said in dealing with her athsma - something that has to be continually dealt with.<p>And I don't think about it (too much) until the next encounter - then I feel such injustice, again! And the cycle continues. Maybe by going to speak with her, it will end for me. <p>I am hoping I only have to take this one step - speaking to her once - but will have to re-evaluate after we see what happens.<p>Well, what would be the point of "close" communion - if there is no relationship between communicants? Only to make sure that the pastor does not give communion to someone to enable their damnation?<p>TnT

OK...I will look for the catechism and study up. Off the cuff, I think we have close communion because we are instructed to be in fellowship with those that share the same doctrine. Since the church is the body of Christ, yes we strengthen and support each other as members of the body, but I don't think we directly affect each other at the communion rail spiritually, since that is such an individual thing.<p>Very interesting question. And yes, although I am not looking down my nose, and many adult confirmands are really best members in many ways, I do agree there is a difference from those raised in the church and by parents raised in the church than those who came to be Lutheran as adults.<p>Like some things are just so ingrained, they just become a part of who you are...so if anybody could reach her, maybe you could.<p>Gotta go look for that catechism! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Well - whether you realize it or not, your statement has confirmed what I feel the Lord has been telling me:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>....so if anybody could reach her, maybe you could.<hr></blockquote><p>I noticed that there was a sweatshirt in my car the other day. Tues night, on the way back from my SIL's - my son said "Dad, there is 'the' sweatshirt." (Like maybe our son knew that someone had recently inquired about it? uggh.) <p>I had a feeling it was OW's. I piped up and said "I think I know who it belongs to, just leave it there, I'll take care of it." Then I asked my husband if anyone inquired about it. He stared straight ahead and would not answer. I asked him twice and he refused to answer both times. He heard me, that wasn't it!<p>So, I'm pretty sure it is hers - and can call her to let her know that I have it and would like to return it to her and ask if I can speak with her. (not looking forward to it, that is for sure.)<p>I don't think he talked with OW, but it is possible OW talked to SIL who talked to my husband. Husband did say on Tuesday afternoon that SIL wanted to know if I was mad at her. He told me that as far as he was concerned, he didn't want to be involved in SIL's problem with me. When we got to SIL's on Tues night, I gave her a hug - to let her know that I still loved her, but I couldn't really talk to her about anything because there were too many people around. I'm sure SIL has had several conversations with OW this week.<p>SIL works with OW, and OW supervises a different SIL - so I'm guessing that H has told SIL that I will be contacting OW - and I'm guessing SIL has told OW something about what has been happening our end.<p>Just need to meet with OW and get it over with!<p>Look forward to hearing from you.
TnT

OK...if you are going to do this, TnT, you need to be determined to stay on the high road, no matter what happens.<p>I'm still a little confused about your goals. On one hand I understand where you want to reach out to your sister in Christ with love and forgiveness and you want to do what you can to restore her spiritually. Right?<p>You also want some closure for yourself, so you are not caught in this cycle of forgiveness/unforgiveness. Right?<p>I guess my confusion about this comes if you assume that you will be able to put this to rest if you reach her...and maybe it will. But I think you may want to honestly examine yourself to see if your primary motive is for her spiritual interest or your own. I understand both are at stake, and certainly you would have every reason to go for either/both accounts.<p>My unease with the situation is that you approach her with the genuine care and concern you have for her soul (which I know you do), but if the talk doesn't go well, you leave empty.<p>Maybe it is a matter of taking the log out of your own eye (biblically speaking of course). Maybe you need to go there seeking her help for your cycle of unforgiveness and pray that in seeking this help, she will also be lifted, instead of going with the idea to help her.<p>What do you think? I haven't found that catechism, yet, by the way. My daughter has hers at school. Good Lutheran I am [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]

Thanks, FHL for a quick reply!
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Maybe you need to go there seeking her help for your cycle of unforgiveness and pray that in seeking this help, she will also be lifted, instead of going with the idea to help her.<hr></blockquote><p>And I said my goals were (see the below quote), but rather this is a tacticle statement, and not a goal.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Goals....
I think I need to explain how betrayed I felt - by her - as a fellow LCMS Christian, especially at the communion table - and let her know that I felt the Lord loves her - and is moving me to speak to her in that love.<hr></blockquote><p>I don't know really what my goal is. I know what the natural man inside me wants... to never hear of or see her again! But the Christian in me wants reconcilliation, forgiveness, love, and fellowship. <p>I want her to know that what happened is serious - not being repentent (at the communion table) will result in damnation. I can see why she didn't ask for forgiveness from me, as Lutherans we feel we can confess to the Lord for our sins but we don't have to go through 'man'. And, I'm sure that Sunday she knew that I didn't know - and her motives for not confessing could have been good motives, not wanting to hurt our marriage. <p>But.... her behavior - since that time, she KNOWS that I now know,(I am 99% sure of this) - indicates to me that she is unrepentent - to me. She does not feel that I have a right to feel the way that I do - or if she does feel that I do have a right, she does not care.<p>That is what I want to talk to her about, I want her to be without a doubt - understanding of where she is at. <p>Yes, I want release too. I want to completely let go- closure, relase - not have to deal with the cycle of forgiveness/forgiveness/forgiveness.... I want to forgive her, and I do - continually. But, until that time that she has asked for forgiveness will it be a complete process. <p>Thanks for helping me process this, I look forward to your reply - TnT

Please understand, I'm looking at this from a doctrinal viewpoint.<p>I totally understand in human terms how you feel.<p>So you want to get this on the table and an open issue between the two of you, so that repentance can be sought and forgiveness given...and fellowship could be possible.<p>You are going to tell her you know and how the whole mess made/makes you feel. Then you are going to lovingly remind her of our beliefs about communion and ask her to examine her heart.<p>OK...what if she tells you her heart is just fine and maybe even denies something "almost" happened or at least her role in it? (Assuming that you know she is not being truthful or sincere) <p>I think you motives are good and your plan is good, but have you really considered the potential for it going badly, and if it does, what you will say or do?<p>This sounds icky, but what do you think about taping the conversation?<p>This is an aweful thing to say, but do you think she could twist your visit and use it against you and you would be left to defend yourself to SIL, H and who knows who else?<p>And the sweatshirt thing is kind of weird. Why would she leave that in your car if she was going to walk in the cold...and was it origionally part of her bar outfit?

I don't know what the significance of the sweatshirt is - or if there is any significance, but it is weird. Yes, it was freezing out that night - I don't know why she would have taken it off - she was sitting in my car for a little while before I discovered it. (SIL was sitting in my car with her.)<p>Very good idea to bring a tape recorder, this is the second time that has been suggested to me - so that is not a bad idea. Because she regularly has contact with my H's sisters, I guess the opportunity to distort what our conversation was about would be a definite temptation - pride? <p>The recorder would also be an accountable measure for me, to make sure I do not cross any lines there - also. So, it is not a bad idea.<p>I don't know, if it goes bad - I guess I'll just have to lick my wounds and come back here with the transcript of the conversation - and figure out where to go with all of this.....<p>hmmm.... and I do want to be prepared - doctrinally, and biblically - because "His word does not go out void".<p>TnT

TNT & FHL<p>Hello, I am intruding here, but I know you'll both understand and forgive me. I'm also at work, so I have only gotten to read over this again today very quickly. I have two points only and not very many words. Surprise, surprise, huh? [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Although I wasn't asked I vote a big YES on the tape recorder. <p>Now for the sweatshirt in question. It's not weird, she wanted a way to either speak to your husband, your SIL or DIL again. Possibly even to speak to you? The thing is sometimes (as a shrink once explained to me) we do those kinds of things without consciously realizing it. So it's possibly not a forefront in her mind kind of tactic or manipulation? Just another perspective on said sweatshirt. Personally I like the next explanation best. <p>TNT maybe God is giving you this sweatshirt as a perfect reason for you to go see her and return said sweatshirt? He is an awesome God, so this sweatshirt thing is a cinch for Him. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Love you both, now back to work for me. I'll check on this later tonight when I am at home.<p>Hugs,<p>[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: A blessed Samantha ]</p>

TnT...I love this about you...but I get the inkling that sometimes you take a bit of responsibilty for other people's choices.<p>Of course it is good and healthy to look in our role in all of our relationships and we absolutely are accountable for our own behavior and our influence on others.<p>But remember, even if you have centered yourself spiritually and are absolutely successful at speaking the truth in love, it may have the effect you intend or desire....and that doesn't mean you failed.<p>OK?

Hi Sam<p>Thanks for the vote on the tape recorder, and the reassurance! I like your ideas on the sweatshirt.<p>No, you aren't intruding - AT ALL! Thank you! In fact, if anyone has any input, thank you in advance.<p>FHL.... OK! You got a deal!<p> [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

TNT<p>Hi again...finally at home...but boy is it lonely. Yes, he is still on afternoons! Two years this month and I hate it.<p>Anyway...on topic...FHL is right, it may not turn out the way you want it to, or appear that it is...but you will be planting a seed. So there is no way you are going to fail in this. I have confidence in you and our Lord.<p>Just had to interrupt again. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Hi again FHL it's so good to see/read from you. <p>Hugs to you both,