What I am not entirely clear on is this; So you acknowledge that you helped get the marraige in this state.....that you have not met the needs of your S, even though you have not been told anything specific and in fact "issues" change daily.<P>And NOTHING has really been admitted. H won't talk about OP, yet will tell me he has lied and can't tell me why and then apologizes for treating me so badly for the past few months, but can;t even tell me why he has done that!!!!!<P>What about the major disconnection to kids, house, any previous thoughts, values, beliefs, food likes, certain hobbies, family of origin.........<P>Pretty much, the only connection my H seems to have is to his profession. Almost like what he is addicted to is some idea or image of himself that OP and his office staff is helping to maintain.<P>H is not even remotely the same H, father or friend that he was in NOvember (before the trip and subsequent possession)<P>What about the absolute refusal to believe that he is any different or that his life was like his family and children tell him it was. ANytime in counseling if you bring up something he did he will say "that's a stretch"<P>WHat the H**** is he running away from,,,,me and the marraige or himself???????

Hi TT,<P>You and I do seem to have it rough on the weekends don't we? I'm always glad to see you're around. Makes me feel like I'm not alone. H just took our kids for his first weekend with them, and I feel so lost.<P>I guess, though I don't have much wisdom on this...the reading I have done about the male mid-life crisis answered a lot of those same questions for me. Other than adolesence, this is the most mixed-up confusing time in life for a man. They don't have any idea "who" they are and what life is all about. It hits professional, hard working men, like our husbands harder than most for some reason. Probably because they were so focused for so many years on getting ahead, and now wonder if it was really making them happy.<P>It helps me to remember how common all of this is. Most men, and quite a few women, as we've seen here go through some sort of MLC. I tell people that I believe my H has had the "mother of all mid-life crisis". It didn't help that we didn't work on our marriage for the last several years. I couldn't and wouldn't recognize what was happening to him. It scared me to death. I can't help him still. It's a process he has to go through, and when he finishes this process...who knows where he will be.<P>He has said to me that he needed "one more time". One more shot at it. In a way I feel lucky that my H has not let his work suffer. He, like your H, feels in control there. I am not having to work right now, but I think a lot here are not so lucky. If I had to suddenly sale my house and find full time work this would be so much harder.<P>I guess TT, that we have to realize that this is just not our deal. The OW thing is a horrible symptom of what THEY are going through. But, I must say, as much as it hurt me, when my H came clean about the affair...it was very healing. I realized that my months of suspicion, and his months of denial were horrible, the worst part of this. I wish your H would come clean if he hasn't already.<P>I want to be part of the solution, not part of the problem. I helped get us to this point, but he made very bad descisions. I am impatient, my worst quality, but TT, you and I are learning more everyday, and that knowledge is power.<P>

az allison, thanks for responding. <P>My H is NOT acknowledging an affair at this point. Perhaps nothing physical happened. He keeps saying that. But I can tell you one thing....she herself has treated me so disrespectfully that I don't know if I can even be his friend while he is her friend.<P>She put herself IN there as his "wife". She acted like his "wife" before he even told me he wanted to separate. It has been her big mouth that told everyone he left me....It was her big mouth that told his office staff (who have known me and my kids and saw us in the office smiling 3 or 4 times a week) that he left me because of long term marital problems. It is she who tells her H that they are in love...It is she who has known me for all these years and leaves her H and children to live in an apt......due to my H's procrastination.<P>My H's mlc includes extensive working out and playing hockey. He also is into <BR>meditation and all things eastern....phylosohy, artifacts, news etc. These were all things we had in common. NOw he refuses to let me in on his world at all and maintains that I never was in his world.<P>If I didn't have my children and his sibs and mom as my validation, I might actually believe him.<P>You are right about one thing...we are learning a lot. I am terribly saddened that something like this exists and effects small children so much, but I will survive.<P>I think I will only survive if I take control of my own life and stop trying to make him see the light. I actually don't try to educate him, but I am obsessed about what is going on in my head....<P>He seems unwilling to let me go......if i get strong, or try to avoid him or in any way seem detached he calls or will call someone in his family to see how I am...It is so bizaar. <P>Yet, he will say totally untrue things about me to me or be mean or cold. Is your H nice to you...It sounds at least as if your H is acting normal in the sense that he is being up front with you.<P>My H will say mean things, continue to lie and then later apologize to me for being mean and then say he's sorry he can't explain what is going on right now.<P>What is there to explain???? He is unhappy and he is blaming me and the kids......I just don't know what else he wants to explain. I know he really has not memory of events. It comes out all the time..It seems to startle him as well.<P>At least he is going to counseling. The coming and going with the kids is not good. My kids wonder when he is not here why? he breezes in and out all the time. He'll do things with the kids that he wants to do...they get to go along on HIS ride, HIS plan. <P>I am currently reading "codependent no more" I want to be able to detach without bitterness. I am not included in this journey and he is doing it coldly....

Hi again TT,<P>Is my H nice to me? Well, he is feeling guilty as hell, and tries to be nice...but, he has his moments of meanness still, and does not hesitate to tell me if I say something that bugs him.<P>The other night on our "date" he told me that he let his boss know about our seperation. His boss shared a few stories of other friends of his that had gotten divorced, about one nice divorce and one horrible one. I replied to H story by saying "That's great, but I'm not planning on getting a divorce". H really got mad at that one saying that I could not hear any story without applying it to our situation. I just sat there for a moment and then said...are you done being rude to me? He apologized, and I let the moment go.<P>It's kind of scary, because I am so very careful what I say to him right now. We never did fight much, which I think contributed to our problems. I am terrified of having a fight, and swallow a lot of feelings. I guess if things work out for us we'll have to address this eventually.<P>I can only hope that H is being up front with me. I am still scared to death. I feel things are over with OW, but there is still his "confidant" at work that he cries to and tells everything to. There is a huge fear now that this will turn into something more serious.<P>It's all so scary. We built our lives around these men, and they throw it away. We have to remember to work on ourselves, so that we'll be ok whatever happens. yuck!<BR>

allison, That's the part that really p**** me off. We do build our lives around these men and they get to "wig out" while we are left picking up the pieces. <P>My H has pretty much gotton his way his whole life. He sees himself as a 'giver' I am sure (most likely due to his profession) but in his family of origin and this family, he is a taker. <P>Now he really acts like a 4th child...an adolescent. It amazes me how much he misses the point in his parenting...something he never did before!!!!<P>For me, the other BIG issue is the OP. She is someone, like I said, who has known me for as long as she has known H. She works with him. I don't care what he says...she should not be IN THIS MARRAIGE under any circumstance. SHe should not be his confidant. YOu know, he denies this, but just as recent as NOV. (the week before the trip and possession) we talked every night. We hugged, he called me "mommy" infront of the kids. He was connected. We were making plans for THIS summer. We bought a suburban to take trips to the mtns and hike and climb. He had a pool contractor here. My kids thought they would have a pool now. <P>I am so angry at him.......but sometimes I am angrier at myself.....for letting him dump on me. I won't be mean about it...but I am not taking it anymore. He and his OP have humiliated me and the kids. Like I said it was OP (his wonderful new best friend) that told his staff that we had long standing problems. (Which I still haven't heard what yet.......he changed his story so many times...particularly when they didn't pan out. He would make accusations and I could point out something simple to make him see it was inaccurate, then he'd tear up, say "I shouldn't have said that" and move onto something vague that you can't argue with like "I can't talk to you" <P>THe more I write about it...the more I want to remove myself from it. I can still love him...but I love the man i knew for 13 years..the conciderate, honest, loving , man. Not this one. This guy is different. He is not warm, he is not conciderate, he is not honest.

It's 3am here and I'm still up. Just read your post and I'm feeling the same way you are. I'm awfully tired and need to go to bed, but wanted to say hi! first and tell you that you are just doing great...hang in there. We can't figure it all out for now. But venting here sure helps.<P>Well, I'm typing like I'm exhausted...and I am. I actually went out on the town with a gf tonight. I pretended to have a fun time, and even danced some, but all the time I was looking at the couples at the bar wishing I was with my H.<P>I'll catch up on your posts tomorrow if you're around. Nite TT.

Was your husband's family "dysfunctional" in some way? Any alcoholism, infidelity, abuse, etc?<P>I am reading a truly extraordinary book called Silent Sons. It talks about how men growing up in dysfunctional families (very broadly defined) can end up demonstrating many of the traits exhibited by your H. It has certainly opened my eyes.<P>As for who is he hiding from, I can only answer for myself. I too mostly defined myself by what I did for a living (nice expression huh?). My job gave me validation and while I was a good provider to my family, I felt somewhat empty if I wasn't the "star attraction" at work. If things at home weren't going well, I could always find something at work to make me feel better, but if things at work weren't going well, nothing would make me feel better. My wife saw me as being very closed and isolated and was one factor that lead to her affair.<P>During the past few months of my enlightenment, I have discovered that I have been running from me. Self-criticism, impossibly high standards, fear of failure, and denial of my own personal issues kept me from breaking through the wall I had built around myself.<P>If you H has such a strong connection to his job, the OM clearly (IMO) does support his image of himself and therefore provides him even more validation. This is something you are, most likely, not going to be able to do. He must, at some point, realize that validation as a man is not determine by his job or the adolation of others around him. It determined by he conducts himself, how he treats others, and how he feels about himself.<P>"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." Martin Luther King, Jr.

Gonnatry<P>BINGO!!!!I did not read SilentSon but began reading "I don't want to talk about it". It is about the hidden legacy of male depression. Believe it or not, my H was not always this way....He really enjoyed his life at home and with the kids......All of which he currently denies.<P>About two years ago, we went through a BIG crisis at work.....a lot of it was due to my H's inability to confront, and an unbelievably narcissitic partner. I was very upset for my H. Mainly that someone would be treating him this way....somehow he interpreted it that I wasn't supportive. I guess he thought I got too upset. It was upsetting (I won't go into all the details)<P>I believe my H suffered a big blow to his self esteem. At the same time,,,OP is his assistant....she is the only sort of partner that has been loyal..unfortunatley she is very manipulative, very controlling, has her own agenda (something I am not the only one who is aware of). She ingratiated herself to him.....started filtering all info in and out of the office...taking care of all the conflict, being his "friend"...spending all of her time with him (lunch...riding in the car (none of which I knew until after)) I never suspected a thing because my H seemed content here. He came home at reasonalble times, told me he loved me every day...we were very affectionate and our sex life was frequent and almost always satisfying. <P>I suppose I should have been more curious when he began telling me about her horrible marraige and was wanting to give her bonus's out of his money for all the work she was doing for him...but you know I trusted him, I believed him when he told me he loved me. I believed in the way he treated the kids. He was devoted, spent a lot of time working with them on homework etc (all of which he denies now)<P>He came home from a 10 day trip with op in which they were doing intense work and I am sure she was showering him with admiration. It was a mission trip that she had talked him into doing. We had a disagreement about it because he never even asked me what I thought of the trip......she ordered the tickets. He paid for the trip!!!!!<P>He came home possessed. I found an intimate note from her in his wallet and he began this weird fantasy in which he seemed to be on some higher mission that only he and OP new about. It was so weird that I was able to detach (although I was and am stillin shock)<P>This is when he began identifying with work and the cloistered life he has there with all woman in the office who adore him and where all of his needs are met (sort of)<P>This seems to be an EA, but I know therre was some physical contact between them...I believe she seduced him...he fell for it...<P>I can tell you....he did not plan this when he went,,,,,but she did. He even admitted that he had not intentions when going on the trip....He told me he missed me.....but I think the line had been crossed earlier, he was just denying it.<P>He is in counseling himself and I think he is dealing with some of these issues.....He seems to have cut way back on his work hours. But the fog and unclear memory is still there so I don't think he can even focus on this family. THe OP has gotton tired of his procrastination and was worried that he was coming back to us....so she moved out, leaving her H to run around taking care of her and her children. (I found this out from her H)<P>I believe and have always believed that his addiction was work related....and she was just tied into the fantasy....but I don't think he is ready to give it up...and also is still unable to see through the fog.<P>The dysfunction in his family came from being the eldest of 6 children born closely together, with a distant father!!!!!!!!<P>Thanks for your reply.......I hope he is able to help himself before his whole family (meaning his three young children) are affected forever. He suddenly has little tolerance if they don't grovel over him. I wnat to say......children SHOULD be able to take their parents for granted as they explore the world around them...they shouldn't have to ingratiated themselves to him (like OP and office staff) to get his approval or love!!!!!<P>EArly in this "thing" I told him that it was difficult to watch him feel more connnected to strangers (office help and patients) than to his own wife and children. <P>