well, that is the name of the discussion board I found in the netscape 'history'...<P>it was sandwiched in between the porn sites...<P>for those of you who have been here at this site since october, perhaps you remember my H, Deut and I...<P>I don't know what to say...here on this board, or here at home to him....what can I say....he can and will give any excuse he wants..hey! maybe in all honesty, it was an innocent excursion in that forum to see what it was about...<P>does the reason matter?....I mean, if you were going thru the hell that we, on this board go thru...would you even click into a board with that title??....<P>I wouldn't...but then again, I wouldn't have an affair either...<P><BR>""married but love to flirt""....what a great place for support..no doubt...<P>I feel cold all over and am starting to shake...I hate it when that happens....I spent the first month after discovery shaking and feeling cold...<P>feels a little like being back at square one....<P>how do I approach this??...<P>Dylan<P>------------------<BR>"The journey into darkness has been long and cruel, and you have gone deep into it."<BR>~ A Course in Miracles

and of course, I forgot to mention the new screen name ....I just clicked in and found his username and password waiting on screen..you know, when it saves the password automatically and all you have to do is click on the login button....<P>I'm shaking my head here....<P>I am such a fool.......<P>I am an idiot to have stayed here...<P>------------------<BR>"The journey into darkness has been long and cruel, and you have gone deep into it."<BR>~ A Course in Miracles

Oh, Dylan, I am so sorry.<P>Maybe, just maybe he was just curious. I know someone on one of these threads mentioned that site not too long ago, and I have to say I thought about checking it out, not to flirt, but out of morbid curiosity...<P>I really hope its not what you think. How does he act other than this? FWIW, I would bring up what you found, calmly and w/o lovebusters, and see what he says. <P>Big hugs--<P>Kathi

I should just stop checking...<P>there are 3 other chat rooms he has visited..all part of Delphi Forums...under the 'erotictalk' section....<P><BR>I am so packing my bags...<P>------------------<BR>"The journey into darkness has been long and cruel, and you have gone deep into it."<BR>~ A Course in Miracles

Hey Dylan,<P>I'll let the many other faithful here advise you to give him the benefit of the doubt, plan a, don't lovebust, etc., etc., etc.<P>NOW, the advice from someone who is in a situation just like yours (that would be me):<P>Confront him immediately and as calmly as possible and give him a chance to explain exactly when and why he completely lost his mind. THEN, if you decide to continue trying to recover from all this CRAP, set some hard and fast rules and come up with a plan to move your recovery forward. I know from your posts that the two of you have been somewhat drifting along without any progress lately.<P>It's time to clear the air and make some changes so that you can get on with your life. We all know that in every relationship one of the partners has to do most of the work toward recovery. MOST, but not all. It's time to start requiring Deut to do his share.<P>Honestly, sometimes I think they do these boneheaded things just so we will scream and yell and shake them up. We have just been through a similar thing and now things are going MUCH better. It's like we stirred all our emotions up and the best ones rose to the top.<P>I know this is anti-MB, but just lay down the law and tell him to like it or not, start being a good husband who deserves a good wife. Fix it or finish it because life is WAY to short to put up with any more CRAP than we already have.<P>Feel free to use my idiot line with him if you think it will help.<P>Before anyone else criticizes MY advice, this is just my opinion but please keep in mind that I have been there and that I suspect that Dylan's husband and my husband are twins separated at birth, so I sort of know what I am talking about here.<P>Keep in touch this time,<P>Peppermint

Oh Dylan-I so hope God will bless you and help you see through this. You ahve been through so much! So very much You know that you have many friends here. Please don't fall off the face of this earth. Keep in touch and let us know that you are OK. PLEASE?<P>You know how and where to find me!! I will be praying for you.<P>------------------<BR>*heartache*<BR>"Loyalty Is A Two Way Street"<BR><p>[This message has been edited by heartache (edited June 13, 2000).]

Dylan,<P>I feel so bad for you right now !<P>I don't understand how he can do that. After all you two have been through already ! <P>Has he lost his mind ? No wait, don't answer that. <P>Where is Butterfly with that frying pan !? <P>I am so so sorry. {{{{{{Dylan}}}}}}<P>------------------<BR>Just call me - Deb<BR>------------------------<BR>The only day I can do anything about is today, yesterday is gone, tomorrow is not yet mine.<P>Hepatitis C, educate yourself ! <A HREF="http://hepatitis-central.com/" TARGET=_blank>http://hepatitis-central.com/</A>

Dylan,<P>I'm so sorry that deut is doing this. Peppermint has offered some wise advice. I just don't understand why he hasn't learned yet. This behavior just baffles me! Stay strong. Hugs....

well. good morning...<P>I chainsmoked and paced....ALOT...<P>if I survive this, I may just drop dead of lung cancer in the next few weeks...<P>Life it seems, is made of choices....and it is those choices that shape our direction and our destiny....<P>some of us choose to have affairs...some don't<P>some of us choose to struggle along in unhappy marriages...some don't<P>some of us choose to fight and save what we know could be great again..<P>some of us don't....<P>some of us take good long looks at ourselves and our relationships and choose to make changes..for ourselves, not for those around us...<P>and some of us don't...<P><BR>and some of us, just don't know how....<P><BR>I made a choice last night....I want to learn how.<P><BR>Deut came home....son and I greeted him out at the van, big smiles, hugs, etc...he took one look at me and asked what was wrong...<P>I guess I am as transparent as a supermodel's dress....<P><BR>well, I greeted him by his 'username' from that site...he looked confused, then clarity dawned in his eyes and he laughed...but then confusion set in and he asked "but what's wrong...."<P><BR>I don't remember evrything...I was trying really hard to breathe..I DO remember telling him that he should leave....<P>he told me to calm down and tell him what the hell was going on....I told him....the new username, the new e-mail account...the erotic talk section of the forum..the 'married but love to flirt'....I left it up on the screen for him....showed him how it showed up in the computers history as being accessed 2-3 days ago...<P>and then proceeded to ask him how he could do something that would hurt me like this, again and again....he looked sticken and hurt....<P>he sat down at the computer....<P>he accessed the e-mail, but couldn't open it because he said he did not remember the password...so he did one of those 'i forgot my password requst things'....then, in about 2 min., the site sent the password and he opened it up...<P>the e-mail account was opened 3 weeks ago and has never been accessed (I am an e-mail wiz and verified all this)...he said he opened it because his other e-mail has his real name on it, and then proceeded to tell me that he has not even gone into that 'married and flirting' place..or the other 3 erotic talk places....<P>he gave me the computer, I went to the site and searched under his username...I came up with 2 boards he posts to....but 1 was to an Elian Gonzalez board (Deut interested in fathers rights) and the other was to a religion board.....<P>he posted to nothing else...<P>his profile at this site is empty...<P>the married/other sites are listed on the left-hand navigation bar under the 'popular sites'...and Deut says that he did click in..but he clicked on all of them...automatically, one at a time...not noticing the titles..but did click out again...<P>the computer showed that he had accessed the site 3 days ago because it kept showing up on his faves and he tried to delete it....not for subterfuge, but because he says it was annoying to see that title there....<P><BR>I guess the bottom line is that he has apologized like crazy....I pointed out that he needed to think about how I would feel finding something like that..I need more consideration from him...I also said that thinking that he could go into a place with that name hurt me again to my very core....especially with the stagnation lately and that nagging feeling that something just isn't right...<P>I broke down and cried and cried....because this bitter, angry, suspicious and untrusting person is not me....being this way goes against everything that I am...<P>he apologized again and said that it was his own fault..that because of previous choices he made, he has done this to me..that I have every right to 'freak on his A$$'...that he was not thinking and deserved no trust from me...that he understood why I would be reacting this way and that he really just did not think, but that in all sincerety, he really did not go in there...the computer verifies that...when I was searching the site (for evidence), I went into a place he never has and yes, it immediately showed up in his faves...proving that you can click in and right back out (as he said he did) and the site saves all the forums you have clicked on regardless of your involvement or lack of posting...<P>but it's the shock of it....finding a board like that....and the shock of thinking he would go there..and be involved....<P>we had a long talk (thanks Peppermint, I used the idiot line...we LB at times, otherwise we would never hear the truth from each other..our personalities are the 'grin and bear it' types).....we acknowledged that we are stuck...that some behaviours have backslid to the point where we are both behaving and reacting like the 'old us'....it has us both spiraling downwards...<P>he did say:<P>'honey, we will have to be divorced before I have another affair, emotional, physical, or online....and we will never let our marriage get to the point where either one of us needs to go elsewhere for anythig ever again....please look at me, in my eyes....I love you..I would not purposely EVER do this to you again..I'm sorry..I did not go to that site on purpose...I did not post there...I did not read there....I feel like an idiot...you have every right not to believe a word that is coming out of my mouth...but I love you....and when I said I would not hurt you like that again, I meant it.....this was stupid of me..you are right....it was inconsiderate...I have nothing to hide from you...you found it all didn't you?...I seem clueless because I really didn't think...it never occurred to me that it would be a problem, because I did not paticipate or ever re-visit that place....'<P><BR>I said a whole bunch more stuff....he said more stuff....I realized that the whole trust issue is a joke still...I thought I was doing ok...but see now that the trust-o-meter is set at 0....something he says he knows and understands....<P>he also said that his focus right now is getting us out of the hugest financial hole we have ever been in...he admitted that even 'we' are on a back burner compared to getting the lawsuits off our backs...and that recovery has suffered for it....and that he is sorry for that and the effect it has and continues to have on me...<P>but he also says that trying to fix everything for the family and yet to the 'exclusion' of the family is assinine....if the family is no longer there to save from the pitfalls of debt....<P>I told him I need to feel 'included' in his life...I still feel as if I am watching everything from th sidelines...that we are both acting and reacting as the 'pre-affair' couple....<P>we will be sitting down and talking more...establishing guidelines...eg: I must know about any new e-mail accounts..no matter what purpose they are for, etc....but I am still downhearted..we went thru all these 'rules' 8 months ago....why did he 'relax' his stance?<P>at a certain point in 'recovery', it would seem that becoming complacent is the 'norm'...<P>I love my husband....<P>My husband says he loves me...<P><BR>I've made a CHOICE...<P>to believe him and his boneheaded mistakes and idiocies...<P>he may not think things thru, never see them thru my eyes, and may always lack consideration for me and my feelings...<P>but by the same token, I have not crawled thru the minefield of adultery and infidelity to emerge on the other side scarred and broken, for nothing...<P>no more band-aids....<P>this time, I'm going in for 'surgery'...<P><BR>love is a miracle...<BR>life is a miracle...<BR>surviving this is a miracle...<P>and as the Greatful Dead say: I need a miracle everyday!<P><BR>so, sometimes they are not being unfaithful...<P>they are just being boneheads...<P><BR>thank you one and all....Kathi, Deb, Peppermint, Heartache, Survivor (love the new name...I may take the old one)...you kept me calm...kept me from lovebusting, screaming and throwing all his stuff out the window...<P><BR>I need more from him and he needs more from me....<BR>I did use use an ultimatum though...we need to work on this marriage and repair it, or we need to separate now...I added that if he ever wanted to go to one of those discussion boards etc...that he should please divorce me now..because what I found yesterday cut me to the bone, thinking he would do this again hurt me MORE than the original discovery.......and made me see a side of myself I NEVER wanted to see...I am a hippie for cryin' out loud...I followed th Greatful Dead around....lived on a beach in california for a year..I hug trees....being the person I am right now is killing me...it is sucking my very soul out..I was never intended to be this person...I love unconditionally, I trust everyone, I let total strangers live with me when they had no where else to stay....I am the epitome of a GIVER...this nightmare has awakened my TAKER...<P>I am not prepared to be this untrusting, angry person....I don't know how to be this..it just took over..<P>I want ME back...the real me...the perpetually positive, rainbow-loving, barefoot, happy, singing joyfully, ever peaceful Dylan...the one who would hug and hold this man thru anything...whose 'forgiving' wand of love could fix this, who could see everything thru his eyes as well as my own and 'fix' his pain..I don't know who this selfish b!tch is....<P><BR>Dylan<P>------------------<BR>"The journey into darkness has been long and cruel, and you have gone deep into it."<BR>~ A Course in Miracles

Glad to see your update on this thread. And, that this "scare" did bring about a good conversation and air your feelings about fixing things...that's great.<P>Dylan, you will not always be this untrusting person...I really believe you will get the "old" Dylan back...a little wiser about people and their flaws and weaknesses, but still happy and full of peace and joy.<P>Hang in there! Hugs--<P>Kathi

I have been naive about people all my life...I look for the positive first, I trust blindly...I always have..that is why this disappointment hurts to the core of my being...<P>I will be wiser one day, and hopefully will no longer look immediately to the negative...<P>it's a sad place to live..especially for one so unaccustomed to it....<P>thank you, Kathi...have a good day...<P><BR>Dylan<P>------------------<BR>"The journey into darkness has been long and cruel, and you have gone deep into it."<BR>~ A Course in Miracles

Perhaps some of the men can answer this question:<P>WHY ARE MEN SO F***ING STUPID?<P>Why does Deut think that even clicking once in such places is harmless?<P>Why do men think that taking out user ID's in "looking for cybersex" sites is harmless?<P>Why do men think that taking a woman your wife is insecure around up to your bedroom to see your pet cats is nothing?<P>Why can't men think about HOW THINGS LOOK TO THEIR WIVES?<P>Do men have that little empathy?<P>What's the deal, folks?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dazed and Confused:<BR><B>Perhaps some of the men can answer this question:<P>WHY ARE MEN SO F***ING STUPID?<P>Why does Deut think that even clicking once in such places is harmless?<P>Why do men think that taking out user ID's in "looking for cybersex" sites is harmless?<P>Why do men think that taking a woman your wife is insecure around up to your bedroom to see your pet cats is nothing?<P>Why can't men think about HOW THINGS LOOK TO THEIR WIVES?<P>Do men have that little empathy?<P>What's the deal, folks?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I will say that it's not just men who do stupid things, just come to my house and see the things that my W does, you would swear that she was a man!!

because sometimes people just don't think...<P>people....men AND women...<P>this will not turn into male bashing....women can be selfish, unthinking boneheads too..<P>maybe it's that we, as betrayeds, are more sensitive to the things that will hurt us, while they, in their 'innocence'..don't realize what those things are....<P>I know that most of the things that happened, if they had happened without the affair, would not have affected me half as much...<P>they do stupid things because they simply don't THINK....<P>Dylan....<BR>still shaking her head....<P>------------------<BR>"The journey into darkness has been long and cruel, and you have gone deep into it."<BR>~ A Course in Miracles

Dylan<P>I'm so glad it turned out not to be what you thought. <P>The world has a lot of good and a lot of bad. I don't think I would want to go back to believing it is all good; it doesn't agree with reality. And it's not safe to take in strangers. I am so much more protective since I had kids.<P>I too have jumped to conclusions; many times. I don't think that means your trust is at 0. Hearing him out first is a behavior I'm trying to LEARN. You chose to believe the worst because it seemed the only answer at the time. Been there, too many times.<P>After all we've been through, I don't think the marriage should ever be on the back burner. I don't know who is working so many hours or both of you, but make the time! For us, it's small kids that present an endless challenge to our time.<P>You are so right about choices; that's what life is. <P>------------------<BR>Cindy

hey Cindy!!<P>the taking in strangers was before I got married and had kids....<P>I used to pick up hitchikers too...sigh...<P>my faith in humanity used to be boundless..now it is gone.... <P>Deut get ups and leaves the house before our 4 yr. old and I get up, and returns home after dinner hour, then usually stays on the computer preparing estimates (he builds decks and fences and does uni-stone walkways)...<P>will reply...gotta go

Hey Dylan,<P>You're back at last!!! You, with the fabulous posts that express exactly what I'm feeling!! THANK GOODNESS!!!<P>Are we betrayed more sensitive than we were before? OH YES!! More sensitive, more suspicious, more distrusting, but mostly more hurt.<P>Infidelity has made us very fragile, and now things that formerly would have been minor annoyances at the most are EARTHSHATTERING EVENTS!<P>Glad to hear that you and Deut are finally going to get serious about this recovery thing. It's the only way to do it. Hey, it won't be perfect along the way, but it will be so much better than the purgatory you have been in that it will sure feel alot better at times.<P>See how much better things can be if you share them with your friends here? GET BACK TO POSTING TO US EVERYDAY!! I'll be watching for it!<P>Peppermint

Hi Soulloss,<P>Sorry you had to go through that.<P>I found Tony set up an AOL Instant Messanager account last month. He says he never set it up. but it has his name and the password he always uses.<P>Since then I have lost a great deal of love for him. He used AOL to cheat on me all this time. We have always discussed him not going on-line unless I am there. He set up this account but refuses to take responsability for it.<P>I am so sorry this had to happen. I hope you see something positive come out of it.<P>((((soul))))))

so, as I was saying before someone rang my doorbell....<P>hey Cindy...<P>Deut is working long hours to fix our financial situation..which I understand completely...the rest of the time, it is the 4 and 9 yr. olds that take up alot of our attention..as well as the yard and the house (both are falling apart)...<P>but I do agree...being put on the back burner can't possibly help the situation....<P>that 15 hours to spend together we strive for is a joke..if Deut and I spend even 3 hours a week doing 'just stuff' together, then, I'll eat a rhino...(I mean stuff not including sex, discussions about the business, etc...life in general)<P>paha.....I had such a post ready for you yesterday....blasting Tony and his selfish uncaring self...damn right it's your house...damn right its your honor and reputation at stake with his family..damn right not to re-commit to a serial cheater....blah, blah..then I found this online crap of Deuts' and decided to shut up with that judgmental crapola...LOL...<P>Deut and I are not married either..and I keep it quiet as do you and I believe, for the same reasons...funny though, Deut too wanted a commitment from me....after his affair...<P>I think I hurt myself from laughing when we discussed it...I have been the one to refuse marriage (he used to ask me every month)...until my stepson is 18...9 more years...here in Quebec, the minute we are married, our income becomes OUR income, and his ex can ask for increased child support, can sue us for back child support, etc.... it's a long story, but as long as we are not married, I am not responsible for a penny of his debts....<P>of course, I have reservations of epic proportions now...I mean, Deut, I would not marry you before...why would I do it now that you have shown yourself to be a liar and unfaithful???....I thank god and goddess that should we ever split up, there will be no mess..no court....no custody fight....what's mine is mine, what's his is mine...lol.....I can walk away....at any time..this scares him alot...but it's not used as a threat...it's just true...<P>but..we did 'marry' each other in a pagan ceremony...called a handfasting...a marriage of souls...Deut, me, a full moon and a grove of trees... in june of 1995....so the commitment was there..vows were spoken...just not a legally binding 'society-endorsed' wedding...although handfastings are now legal in some states and here in Canada, in one province...<P>I am rambling like a mad fool...<P>Peppermint....listen girl, I want to know who gave you permission to live my life in an alternate universe ?????<P>how did we resolve this you asked on the recovery board....<P>Deut will not open any more accounts without my knowledge...nor will he post to anywhere without same knowledge and he will tell me if he 'clicks' in to anything or anywhere even by accident so that no misunderstanding ever occur....<P>he is miffed I think because he wanted to read something here on the boards (not this..he doesn't know about this post yet) and I asked him not to..and he is right..I am setting a double standard...especially considering that you and I have discussed that it seemed to be going bettr when our H's were here too...I just felt like...."not today"...this pain is mine, it's fresh and I feel selfish about MB today...<P>he also thinks that what he did was stupid, hurtful and inconsiderate, but just wants 'to be out of trouble' for it too...<P>it is as if he has no concept of this new pain...even if he was not posting to that site..the very fact that he went there...and I mean, come on, I am not a moron...he did go there...an 'oops' is an 'oops'....but 3 of those sites in a row is not an 'oops'...it's more of an..hey..oh, what's this?...huh??...oh...what's this one?..oh...<P>to me, even 'surfing around' in an area of a discussion board that has the title 'erotic talk' is not a place where a man who has had an affair and supposedly wants to heal and rebuild his marriage should go..not even out of morbid curiosity....<P>he doesn't get it, I guess..to him it really was innocent surfing..he never posted, so he should be safe...<P>I say the lack of consideration of my feelings was monumental...<P>I would not go to a board entitled "hey, my H screwed around and now I'm looking for fun!!" or " my spouse betrayed me and I need a shoulder and I'm easy"<P>I guess it's the lack of foresight...the total 'unthinking-ness' of his actions...and the small part of me that dsibelieves and knows that he did go there, and found that it was boring....what if it hadn't been boring??<P>as I type this, I am still very aware that this very computer was from OW....and the only reason it it still in one piece and not out in the driveway in little bitty pieces is that I know we could never afford one ourselves....but I have been guilty of wanting to take the thing and throw it...especially yesterday....the biggest LB I have ever wanted to commit was yesterday...<P>Peppermint, I almost formatted the 'C drive'...LOL<P>I just don't know about trust anymore...and I am very afraid...I'm numb when I look at him..there's no feeling...none...NONE..no exaggeration here....I'm terrified that my love is gone...I am not the betrayer here, but must admit to wondering if those 'in-love' feelings will ever come back and be a part of this relationship...<P>my reactions yesterday really leave me wondering what I am becoming...I feel no positive chang within myself...Deut says I look unhappy and miserable all the time (that must really make him feel like coming home to me ) I need to find a way to heal and move on....even the lady whose home I clean has told me to my face that she knows something is wrong...my pain, she says is all over me...in every word, every expression...she looked at me and asked if my marriage was failing...when I told her I had been betrayed, sexually, she only asked if I was willing to forgive..without that, I could not go forward, but that she could see my hurt and anguish..<P>I guess my agent ran away with all my money not because he was an a-hole, but because I have no talent as an actress, and he wanted to spare my feelings....LOL...I have ALWAYS been one of those able to 'put on a happy face'....ALWAYS....not this time....<P><BR>Dylan...scared and scarred...<P> <P>------------------<BR>"The journey into darkness has been long and cruel, and you have gone deep into it."<BR>~ A Course in Miracles

Dylan,<P>I understand exactly what you are describing. Now, I hate it when firestorm tell me he knows how I feel, because I have never betrayed him so he can't possibly know how it feels. BUT to you I CAN say, I KNOW EXACTLY HOW YOU FEEL. And you know exactly how I feel.<P>Sometimes I think a lot of the MB advice is just fantasy stuff, but it does work. When I came to the decision that I was going to really make a true effort for our marriage to continue, deep down I thought there was no chance. I read the plan A advice, and thought that it made sense- do everything you can and then you can walk away without regrets. I thought that is what I would be doing, walking away from this relationship and being able to say "Look at how wonderful I am. My husband cheated on me and broke my heart, but I tried and tried to save our marriage anyway. It failed, but it's not MY fault."<P>Keep in mind that firestorm truly regrets the affair, apologizes continually and really loves and adores me. But at the time, I felt nothing and he could tell it. But I agreed to try. When he wanted to kiss me, I responded. When he planned things for us to do, I went and did them. When he wanted to have sex, we did. I didn't want to, sometimes hated it, but we did.<P>And slowly, little by little, the hurt didn't seem so bad and my feelings started coming back. We are getting so much better. It is a slow but steady progress, and the setbacks that happen (like last Saturday night, details on recovery post) don't set us back so far anymore.<P>We are not recovered yet, but we are doing much better than just surviving. We are truly IN RECOVERY, and it is getting better every day. And it is starting to feel really good.<P>I am no plan A guru or expert like Lori, but I can promise you that the thing does work. And you don't have to be as good at it as Lori is to see results.<P>Dylan, the first step is to decide that you really want to get better. And to do that you have to make up your mind to forgive Deut for the affair. You haven't yet, you know.<P>I am a big believer in prayer, and I prayed everyday for guidance. The answer I got was forgiveness. One night three months after Dday, I told firestorm that I had decided to truly forgive him. Over the next few days, each time he told me he was sorry, I told him that I knew and I forgave him. It was not instantaneous and it was not easy. But it worked.<P>Forgiveness did not take away the memory or the pain of the affair. But it opened the way for healing from it. And that is what we have been doing every since. Slowly healing.<P>Dylan, you have to make up your mind that you are going to really forgive him. It will take a while, but stop using the pain as a shield to protect yourself from more pain. It doesn't work anyway. Give it an honest try. What have you got now that you will lose if it doesn't work?<P>Let's stay in touch and support each other here. Firestorm still visits, just rarely responds (he did to poorme). Bring Deut back and he and firestorm can support each other. I think it will really help. We can all come through this tragedy.<P>Please think about it. Talk soon, okay?<P>Peppermint