H's been back for a month now.<BR>I should have listened to my little voice inside. I have just had a nagging feeling that things weren't right.<P>Well, I just found a phone card in his wallet along with a schedule of her whereabouts and numbers she can be reached at. <P>Then I checked his vehicle again and I found it!! The cell phone he told me he mailed back to her. So, he's still lying to me.<P>I'm so upset, I'm shaking. This inner rage is boiling inside. Please help me dear friends. What should I do. He's out of the house right now and will be returning shortly.

sidney,<P>i am so sorry you are in this situation. i don't know what i would do but i think i would ask him in a non-chalant manner to see if he lies to you. i can handle about anything, but not lies. my husband told me about the affair and the honesty is what made me stay. if your husband is still involved with the OW and lying to you about it, i would tell him to leave. you do not deserve this. who does he think he is to treat you like this? i don't usually post here, as i am on the pregnancy/child forum because the OW had a child. but i sure hope you think about this. especially if you are still having sexual relations with your husband. he could get a STD and pass it along to you. you deserve so much better, and i know it would be so hard to see a marriage end, but he is breaking all the rules. i pray you will have strength to do what is right for you. take care and put YOU first.<P>happy_girl<P>

I know the feeling of finding a phone card.<P>Although my H recommitted upon discover (even was walking away from OW), he continued phone contact, and of course lied about it for about 8 weeks.<P>It is STILL an issue with me 18 months later. However, I do believe he thought he was doing his best to let OW down and be committed to marriage.<P>The best he can come up with is that he felt obligated to call her. That when they did talk there were long awkward silences. I think she was also a bit desperate and even was threatening to make a scene in his life somehow, but I am not sure about that.<P>I do think at the time, in his own way, he thought he was doing the right thing. Of course he wasn't and it did enormous harm. Upon my second discovery (phone card) I do believe he never called her back, at least. And from his demeanor, he was not as odd as he had been, so I think the lies stopped.<P>Once he told me he only lied about the affair. I believe that is true, but I still need to take a look out the door myself if he says the sky is blue. <P>The affair was hurtful and devastating, but it was the lies that did the damage I still am struggling to recover from.<P>

Thanks HG,<P>You are absolutely right. I do deserve much, much better. I feel like this man has been toturing me for a year now. D-Day was July 10, 1999.<P>He moved out last December 1, but would not leave me alone. I was really trying to disconnect, but he insisted on calling me nearly every day and driving up to see me.<P>I feel numb at the moment. My lovebank is overdrawn. He is sick. But, I can't let him drag me down with him.<P>Thanks for your words of support.<P>Hi FHL,<P>Yes, it's the continual lies that are destroying the relationship. I simply cannot go on letting him abuse me. I've often wondered if it's the fact that he feels like he's putting one over on me that is the attraction and excitement. If he's not happy with me, then why doesn't he just end our marriage???? I have no respect for him anymore.

Sidney,<P><BR>First I want to say I'm so sorry you're in this panic state, and you're are hurting and mad at the same time. You don't deserve this. But do try and remember what you want.<P>I think you need to first and foremost, BREATHE and clam yourself. You need to be calm and thoughtful when you talk to your H. You don't want to attack him with angry outbursts or LB him. I know it's hard to do, believe me, I've been there.<P>So you found the phonecard and her numbers and a cell he promised to give back. Have you and him sat down and mapped out the rules for recovery, NO CONTACT? I assume you have, so I suggest you CALMLY ask to talk to him. He must understand that you want to rebuild your trust in him, you want to trust him again. Without trust there is no going forward.<P>Give him the benefit of the doubt, although it does look like he is lying, and listen to his explaination. Try your best not to let your conversation lead to an angry argument where neither of you is listening to one another. That won't accomplish anything accept put you back where you were before you two started recovery. Use what you've learned here, have respect for yourself and for him. If you approach this with thoughtfulness and respect hopefully you'll receive the same back from him in his responses. If not, then don't let it frustrate you. He will realize you took the time to put thought into your discovery before talking to him. Small steps, but it will tell him you are handling this as an caring adult and affording him the same opportunity.<P>Hope I've helped a little. Please do your best to stay calm and sort this out in your head before talking to him. You can do it.<P>Jo

sidney,<P>hope what everyone has said is helping you and glad you realize you don't deserve this. i completely agree that the lies are what the problem is now. it is so hard to understand why people lie. i hope that you have calmed down a bit since you first posted and if you do talk to your H about this try to do it calmly. i know it won't be easy, but he will probably just get mad if you are angry. they get mad at us because we are mad at what THEY are putting us thru, it is unbelievable sometimes.<P>tell him you need him to be honest, at least then you can make decisions re: your marriage while you know all the facts. it is unfair for him to lie to you. tell him how you feel. and if you haven't yet, give him a list of things you want him to do if he is really gonna stay and be a part of this marriage. we made a contract that if he EVER cheated again that it would be over. fortunately for me, he fully knows what he did was wrong and has done everything to prove to me he loves me and is sorry for all the hurt he has caused. d-day for me was in 3/97 and a second d-day was several months ago when we found out about the OC. this had brought it all back again and i am an emotional mess, but coming to the forum has really helped me. keep posting here! there are soo many wonderful people.<P><P>------------------<BR>happy_girl

Hi Resilient,<P>Yes, I did approach him calmly and told him we needed to talk before he went to work. When I confronted him about the cellphone he told me he DID mail it back to her but she sent it back. I tend to believe him because I saw a postal receipt for a package he had mailed. He kept saying that he didn't want to hurt me (excuse for his lies) but that they have an "emotional attachment" after two years. I told him that as long as he had contact with her, there was no hope for us. I also asked him if his relationship with her was more important to him than us, and he replied, "I don't think of it in those terms". I said, "Maybe you should."<P>He told me he was "trying" to rebuild. I said that if he thought he could continue to contact her & rebuild his marriage at the same time that he was deluding himself. <P>I also told him that if he was happier with her, then go. And, that I was getting very close to the end of my rope. And, I must say I really am.<P>Thanks for your thoughts.<P>Thanks, HG,<P>Yes, I talked quite a bit about honesty and lies. I just cannot believe after all this time, that he's still trying to sit on the fence! I fear that I've sent the message to him that I'm going to continue to tolerate it. Before he left for work he professed his love for me and said "we'd talk more tomorrow".<P>Now, I'm debating what to do. Part of me really wants to leave, & I just might do that. <BR>

Hi Sidney,<P> For crying out loud, is this standard operating procedure? We moved after my H came back to get away from Ow....moved 7hrs.,I left friends, my life and found out he has been in contact with OW. You are right , the continual lies and deceit do unbelievable damage. I really thought about leaving and meant it and somehow that has sunk in with my H.There has been a change for the better in attitude etc. <BR> I immediately called Steve H. and he was a big help, are you getting any kind of counseling? LU

Sid - <P>1st don't leave! When I found out my H still had contact with the OW I was packing up my suitcases and about to head out the door. That was just the rashness of anger. Since then, my H says he's had no contact - but like most of us, since trust has been demolished I don't beleive him as far as I can see him But, the hard part is trying to deal with the anger and humilation of all of this.<P>When your H gets home, do talk to him, but listen to him. You may just want to start the conversation by saying :you said we'd talk once you got home, so what are we talking about?" Do that in a non threathening way and try to find out how he feels about making the marriage work. For about 3 days, I'm sure the OW has had no contact with my H - unless she's e-mailing him. The unknown is what eats us alive. <P>Hope this helps!<P>Vee

The talk you had with your H sounded more than reasonable.<P>Looking back, although any lie is unacceptable in a recovering marriage and of course any contact with OW is unacceptable, I kind of understand that my H's lies, and possibly your H's, were rooted in the process of letting go rather than holding on.<P>There is probably a fine line somewhere there. I honestly believe my H was sincere when he said he absolutely wanted the marriage and would (and pretty much had) ended it with OW. But that murky area between wanting it and being successful at it got set him up for failure. This is probably especially true when the OW is not taking "it's over" easily. As yucky as it is, I also have come to see that since my H is a decent and kind guy, he had a hard time doing what seemed mean. I think he thought he could let her down gently and since I was in so much pain it was kinder to me to not let me know. <P>I also think he was relieved when I found that new phone card. I think he was figuring out it wasn't working and was feeling guilty about me and trapped by OW.<P>When you do talk to him, listen listen listen. You may find out far more by listening that the results you may get by laying down the law right now. After you listen, digest everything for a few days and then act. Easier said than done, I know.

Hi Lu,<P>Yeah, I'm beginning to wonder if they all read the same book?! OW is and always has been 4 hours away, but that didn't put a damper on the affair. I think the challenge just added more excitement. She lured him down there & he lived within 5 minutes of her for 6 months, but she couldn't keep him there. He returned to me. Now, it appears she's still not giving up. Although, I've upped the ante on the challenge as her cellphone is now at the bottom of our pond! Hahahaha!!<P>No, I haven't pursued counseling yet. Our situation is somewhat complex & clouded as we recently found that H has brain damage in the decision making part of his brain. (I'm beginning to wonder if he even has one!) So, I've been exerting all my energy into making sure he gets seen by the proper neurologists. Plus, he's expressed an interest in seeing a psychiatrist. Until he gets his medical situation under control, I just figured there was no point in trying to work on the relationship. And, I haven't gotten any personal counseling as my health plan doesn't pay for it & money's been an issue lately.<P>Hi Vee,<P>It's so very hard to know what to do. H seems to think he's been trying to reconnect, yet he refuses to break off contact with OW. Says they have an "emotional bond". I'm not sure he realizes how close I am to throwing in the towel. I just can't do this anymore. Thanks for the advice.

Thanks, FHL,<P>Yes, I'm afraid I'm married to a "Mr. Nice Guy" too. He's also a big time conflict avoider, so I'm certain he's finding it difficult to tell her to buzz off. He told me several times that she's in love with him. Like I'm going to say, "Oh, now I understand!"<P>It will be interesting to see her next move, though, since I've chucked the cellphone, confisgated the phone card along with her phone numbers, & changed our home telephone number. H mentioned something about "not being strong enough" to take control of the situation. I also remember him telling me awhile back that "she's competitive". Competitive, hell, I think she's a sicko. And, I must say that frightens me!

sidney,<P>i am still laughing about you throwing the cell phone into a pond. that is just great. i don't think you should just leave, but do talk to him when he said you would talk. tell him you can't be in this in limbo anymore. he needs to decide who he wants to be with and since it seems that that person is YOU, then he needs to stop all contact with the OW. He should write her a letter stating that he wants to work things out in his marriage. there was a post here awhile back that the betrayer did that. it also said that any further contact would be viewed as harrassment. there is another one by fingers crossed the thread is called "no contact letter" or something like that. read it and print it, show it to your H and see if he would want to do something like that.<P>hope you are doing better. hang in there and fight for your marriage. just be willing to realize when the fight is not worth it anymore. <P>happy_girl

Thanks, HG.<P>Good idea- printing off a No Contact letter. I will go search that one out. I guess the hardest part is knowing when to give up. <P>There are many positives right now-- He IS with me, he IS attempting to get some medical help, he IS taking anti-deps, he did go out and get a job (which was a major reason his self esteem plummetted & made him susceptibe to the affair).<P>But, I just feel like recovery is at a standstill, as long as ugly OW is still in the picture. I am willing to negotiate but I feel like this point is NON-NEGOTIABLE!

Hi Sidney,<P>just wanted to let you know that I agree with everyone else. You do deserve better. I think the way you are handling this is wonderful. Vent, vent, vent, but with us. And get some perspective and other ideas from those here that have gone through it.<BR>I know that some responses here to me have saved some situations. You have all calmed me down at times, and made me see things rationally. Sometimes it's so hard to see beyond the hopelessness of the situation, and you are going through right now. But when you read that someone else has been there, and come through it, it gives a bit of hope that all will get better, in some way, and some day!!!!!!<P>Just wanted to say hi, and let you know that I'm thinking about you.<BR>Hope all goes well when you discuss this issue.<P>Jo

Hi Jo!!!!<P>So good to hear from you again! I never would have imagined that a year past D-day, I'd be in the same boat-- and it's taking on water.<P>I'm beginning to think it's going to be time for an ultimatum. Lord give me the strength. I know in my heart that once I make my decision, there will be no going back.<P>Hope things are going better for you.

Hi back,<P>it's soooooooo good to be back here. I know we all have so much baggage, there's so much sadness and unhappiness, but through it all, I have had lots of laughs, (some were really good belly laughs!!!), and met so many wonderful caring people.<P>I posted my update on the "updates, updates put 'em here" thread, just about an hour ago.<BR>I won't go into it again on your thread, but it's there.<P>Suffice to say, I'm quite comfortable with my life, it seems to have turned around. I still don't have my H, not even sure if I want him any longer, but I'm quite content. My relationship with my children is wonderful, I'm just about to go back to work as a flight attendant which I always wanted to do, childcare issues seem to have worked themselves out, and my relationship with H is quite ok. Well, this week anyway..........<BR>could change tomorrow. I think he's going through menopause the way he chops and changes!!!!!!!!!!!<P>take care of you, and big hugs to you. It's good to talk to you again<P>Jo

Sidney - just wanted you to know that I'm keeping up with you, too! I laughed like crazy at the picture of you throwing the cp in the pond! Would have LOVED to do something like that!!<P>Robert still has contact with PT after 5 months - pretty much because of the little stunts she pulls at this point...but for a couple of months anyway, he WAS returning her phone calls, etc. Said it wasn't fair that he had hurt her like he did and she was having a hard time with it. ug - no, we won't EVEN ask the "what about ME?" question...they seem to think differently during this time. I agree that it's more a case of having difficulty "breaking away" than a wish to return to these OW's.<P>I was lucky. He was telling me what was going on....not at FIRST, mind you, but as he began to trust me more. And yes, surprisingly enough, I do understand THAT issue - finally!<P>PT has used every trick in the book, every form of guilt and manipulation to wreck what we have now. A couple of times, early on, she could've been successful. Not any more. I don't worry anymore really. I do agree that it's easier and better if they would REALLY do the "no contact" thing, but, sometimes, we just don't get the easier and better thing. I didn't. So I just worked with what I had.<P>Robert's not the type of man to take demands, conditions or ultamatums. I know that. Most things have to be HIS idea...ok, I've always known that - I can deal with it. So I just made it easy for him to talk to me about it, never reacted when he'd tell me and sure enough, before long, HE was telling her to go away! She's not bothering us nearly so much anymore and just last week he asked for a transfer..told his supervisor that he was bored. I happen to know it's to put distance b/n them - he really doesn't like her very much anymore - she gets on his nerves. He said my believing in him and that he would do the right thing without insisting gave him the strength to actually do it.<P>You know yourself and your H better than anyone...just like I did mine. You're the best judge as to what action (not REACTION!) that you need to take. Where some WS's appreciate and need the insistance on conditions, mine would simply have resented it and it would have set him up to lie to me or leave me. For us, it worked better this way. Harley's principles are sound. You decide best how to use them in your own life.<P>Thinking about you!<P>Love and prayers,<P>Lori

Hi Lori!!<P>Thanks for sharing your thoughts & experiences. They do help a lot. <P>Here's a condensed version of our "talk" today. Once H finally started to open up to me, he wouldn't quit. (Even summoned me into the room he was sitting in "as he still had 10 minutes until he had to leave for work"). He talked to me for hours today. I'm actually getting very good at asking open-ended questions!!! LOL <P>He was very honest-- first time in a very long time. Basically, he won't give up OW (I'm assuming EA since it'll be next to impossible to carry on a PA now that he's employed & she lives 4 hours away.) He fiinnnnaaally admitted that the attraction is that she strokes his ego and makes him feel young again. <P>He is going to make an appt tomorrow to see a psychiatrist. He said he needs "help in dealing with his self-destructive behavior" and "some guidance". He said that over the course of the last 2 years he has evolved into an ego-centric, selfish, child and that he is having a difficult time in grasping reality-- he described it as "everything feels surreal & fluid". He said he is compulsive & cannot seem to consider the consequences of his actions prior to doing them. He also said he knows he's irresponsible. That he knew I would probably find the cellphone but that he just didn't care. I asked him if he wanted me to find it and he said, "No". He said he used to consider himself a moral & decent person, but now the lies & deceit just flow effortlessly & it really, really bothers him.<P>He views me as his "tether to reality", the responsible, common sense one. He also said he knows he would never be able to "make it" (emotionally) on his own without me. He said he is doing much better now that he has come home. While he was away, he was having bouts of paranoia along with depression and the neurological problems.<P>Whoa! I am having a difficult time digesting all of this. It's downright scary as well as I feel a crushing burden of responsibility for his sanity. I feel like he "needs" me more than "wants" me. He is filling none of my emotional needs while inflicting a considerable amount of pain. I can feel myself disconnecting (out of self-defense). Yesterday, I was looking into the singles dating page on AOL. Of course, I didn't share that with him. But, I did tell him that I was "reaching the end of my rope" & that I, too, was having fantasies of running away.<P>I suppose that, as long as he's reaching out for help, I'll try to hang in there.<P>I mentioned to him that I was thinking about getting a cellphone this weekend. He jokingly said, "Why, you already have one, or did you throw it in the pond?" I replied, "What makes you think that?" He then persisted (in a roundabout way) to know of it's whereabouts. I said, "It's feeding the little fishies!" He didn't look surprised at all.