Let me just start out by saying....I love my husband. I've loved him since I met him 13 years ago and I still love him to this day. I felt that our marriage was what God wanted for both of us and I still do.<P>My husband is a good person. He is a Christian and believes in God, although isn't acting like it at all right now. He has overcome some big situations that have been presented in his life (from small-kid time) and has really made me proud of him. He's not perfect....he struggles with many things....we all do.<P>Over the past 9 months since d-day, I've seen the part I played in not always meeting my husband's needs, and thus making him feel like he needed to end the marriage (by having the affair). I don't in any way, think I caused him to have the affair; I just see how he became unhappy with the relationship. He's been gone since January, living with the OW.<P>As I look at my reasons for wanting to save the marriage...I'm not sure I like them all:<P>* I love him dearly.<P>* I think that God brought us together and still wants us together.<P>* I think our relationship was basically good and fulfilling to both of us (until the later years) and was a good partnership.<P>* I don't want to feel like I failed.<P>* I don't want to go on alone or be alone.<P>* I'm afraid I will never have another intimate relationship.<P>However.....<P>Looking back on the relationship, my husband acted in ways that were very disrespectful to me, such as:<P>* I was a virgin when I met him (he wasn't). I told him many times while we were dating that I didn't want to have sex until we were married. I don't dismiss my part in giving in, but he basically bugged the heck out of me until I gave in, just a few months before we married. I some ways, I don't feel like that was all that horrible because we were engaged, but the LACK OF RESPECT for my "conviction" is what bothers me more....why did he keep pestering me? He acted like my belief about that was outdated.<P>* During dating, he would mention how he was such a great lover in his other relationships with women (before we met); how women would sometimes have orgasms from just kissing him and how his other long-term relationship was full of such great sex.<P>One of the "problems" (from his point of view) in our relationship was that I RARELY had orgasms with him during sex. From the outset, I always felt like I was doing something wrong. I had no idea of what sex was like (and I was 31!) or how to do it. I enjoyed it, but he always made me feel like it just wasn't enough because I didn't have one. I told him I loved making love with him and I did....he just based it all on whether I had an orgasm or not and actually took it as an insult if I didn't. I even went for treatment on this, but it just didn't seem to make a difference. And then, of course, it became such an issue and it just wasn't fun anymore. And he wonders why I didn't want to have sex all that often....I tried to explain it to him, but he didn't get it or didn't want to get it. He just never seemed very willing to help me with this particular problem...I just had to figure out a way to change it, which I was never able to do.<P>* Also, during our marriage, from about the second year on, he would stay up late and watch porno flicks on cable tv. He would even tape them and hide them from me. One day I found a tape behind the bookcase and wondered what it was so I played it. It was disgusting. I confronted him and he just laughed it off saying "every man does this...it's totally normal." I told him how it made me feel (like he was having an affair and lusting after other women), but it didn't seem to register. He still did it and hid the video tapes, etc. <P>Then when the internet came about, it was pictures that he would download. I knew he did this and told him it hurt me, but he still did it and said agian "men just do this stuff." After he moved out, I found over 100 pictures he'd downloaded of women/men/teens having sex. It just sickened me. <P>I think this was really disrespectful and distructive to our marriage, esp. since we had that sexual problem...how did watching porno help? Am I wrong on this? DO ALL MEN do this? Is this NORMAL for a Christian man to do? If so, then I'm REALLY depressed.<P>Anyway....to the point: Why should I want to save my marriage to a person like this? He used to always tell me I "think funny" about things. He had high morals in every other area, except for sexual things. He says he things God want him to be happy sexually and that God really isn't all that concerned about how that happens. And now, I'm not sure he even believes in God.<P>So that's the questions....why am I trying to save a relationship with a man like this? If we were still married, I would have just accepted this (and let God be the judge) and prayed for him (which I did). But now that we are separated and probably going to be divorced, besides all the reasons I listed above, why should I want to have a relationship with someone like this?<P>Any answers!!<P>Thanks.<P>

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that God wants us to be happy. That is not his intent. I believe God wants a relationship with us and He wants us to totally rely upon Him. He loves us more than we can begin to imagine and wants the best for us. I think it is our pride and rebellion that prevents us from experiencing the joy and freedom in the Lord. <BR> My H too is a Christian. He and I both are shocked that he got himself into the A. He doesn't look at porn or download any pictures from the internet. My father and brother didn't either who are also Christians. <BR> It sounds as if your h is trying to convince himself what he is doing is right. My H left us several times and even filed for divorce before coming out of his fog. I relied on the Lord to see us through and He was faithful-that's all He knows to be. He's still seeing us through. If you believe God has a plan and purpose in you remaining married, then keep working at it. All the times my H left us, I knew deep down in my heart and soul that the Lord would keep us together and I am eternally grateful to Him for all that He has so graciously done for us. <BR> Keep in prayer, find a prayer partner that you can trust, and watch for the Lord to be at work. He won't let your husband go nor will be forsake you. Have faith!<P>Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose.

Hi Mrs. O,<P>Well, I was feeling pretty understanding about all the stuff your H was doing until the part about "God wanting him to be happy sexually and not caring how he does this." He really is still in his fog Mrs. O if he could say something this outrageous!<P>In Dr. Dobson's book, 'Love Must be Tough' he explains to the BS that the WS will use the God angle in justifying their behaviour. Surely, the lowest of lows for justification. I am not a religious fanatic, or a born-again anything, but anyone with any knowledge of God is reaching a LONG LONG way to use Him this way. It's just sickening.<P>Mrs. O, your values are yours, and you should never betray your own sense of what is right and wrong. What may be right for one person, looking at porn, ect... happens to be wrong for you. You will never feel comfortable with that stuff, and that is perfectly OK, just as it is for MARRIED couples that like that medium.<P>Sounds like your H wanted to marry the little virgin...no slam AT ALL intended to you there, but wasn't content to be patient and teach you about real love. Real physical love. If you were not happy with the sexual relationship, it was up to you to do something about it, and it sounds like you tried to.<P>Why should you try to save your marriage? Because it is the path that will save your husband. He is on a long road going the wrong way. Can your husband change? That is the question that you and I and so many betrayed here wonder about. If he can't, can you live with his behaviours? Do you really think he has it in him to change, and be a patient, gentle man and lover to you?<P>You obviously love your husband a lot. You seem to admire him a great deal. You have been patient during his fog, and continue to be. You and I have sort-of the same problem according to previous posts, our H's treat us like their freinds, not wives. I am at a loss to tell you how long to wait this out, as I am clueless about this also. I'm on the cusp of wanting to say forget it too. But the love thing...sigh. <P>Lets' hang in there a while longer with our Plan A's. I will if you will, ok?<P>allison<P> <BR>

Thanks guys for your responses. <P>First of all, I too believe that God doesn't promise us happiness....however, I firmly believe that IF we follow God's precepts, we WILL be happy. It's a by-product of our relationship with him...not the goal. My H is wrong on this front, I believe.<P>Secondly, are you saying that these behaviours are OKAY in our marriage (ie. the porn, lust, etc.)? I thought as Christians, we weren't supposed to do things that would cause other Christians to stumble?? Is this REALLY the way ALL other men are? I think it's just his excuse to lust and do what he wants. While I love him, I am seeing that in many ways he is sooooo selfish.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Why should you try to save your marriage? Because it is the path that will save your husband. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>But is this my job? I don't think so in the ultimate sense. However, I always have had the feeling that I was my husband's gift for healing. I don't mean that to sound like I'm some sort of angel...but when I married him, I felt that was what God was saying to me (and, by the way, so did he).<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>If he can't, can you live with his behaviours? Do you really think he has it in him to change, and be a patient, gentle man and lover to you?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Part One: I DID live with his behaviours and accepted that God would have to deal with him. But now that I don't HAVE TO live with these behaviours and have seen how they really were somewhat distructive to our relationship (they UPSET me), why should I choose it again? <P>Part Two: I think he has it in him...but he is really self-centered....really. His Mom thinks I've always been a saint for putting up with him. But in my eyes, the change in him would have to be something like the Saul to Paul conversion....a BIG change. His whole attitude is that that's just the way he thinks and o well, we just think differently.<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Lets' hang in there a while longer with our Plan A's. I will if you will, ok?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well.....okay. My H wants us to get together in a week or so to "talk." He just told me today he feels really bad about what he's doing and about leaving me alone. I asked him if he's planning on telling me of some decision he's made or what. He says no, he just wants to talk. So we'll see......<P>Thanks for your replys.<P>

Mrs. O,<P>I sense my reply kinda peeved you a bit. Not my intention at all. Neither was my intention to get into a theological debate. I am no theologian. I happen to be a very open minded person, who has all sorts of freinds in all sorts of situations, and I try hard not to judge any of them.<P>Yeah, to be honest, I think most men like porn. Maybe we can hear from some of the men here on this one. I think a lot of women like it sometimes too, but, just watch one of those movies (or don't) they are totally geared to men and their fantasies. There are countless "girlie" magazines on the shelf of every convenience store, but, how many are there showing men lolling around naked on the beach? But, I don't think looking at this stuff makes someone not Christian. Heck, in some Religions dancing is a no-no. Anyway, I turned this into a Religious thing here, and didn't mean to.<P>It is not your job to save your husband. You know you really can't do that. I guess I just meant that without you he will flounder even more. You are probably still his anchor. His piece of sanity in his world.<P>Most of the betrayers I've known are selfish people. Heck, you have to be selfish to go into something so wrong. (Sorry betrayers, you know I try to understand you guys). This is another one of those questions you (and I) have to ask...would we be willing to go back into the same marriage we had, or is it really possible for the WS to change?<P>I hope your talk with your H goes well. I hope you see a bit of the man you married. The one that may be still in there somewhere.<P>Best to you,<P>allison

Mrs. O, your questions touched a nerve in me and I had to reply; I wanted to write yesterday, it's just that as I was typing, that's when the entire family came in here and started distracting me.<P>Of course God wants us to be happy! That's His ONLY intent! He put us on this earth to experience unhappiness, to progress through trials and heartache, to work through the puzzles of right and wrong and to truly understand what *right* is. Opposition in all things--how can we learn what happiness is if we don't understand what it is to be unhappy? And remember, this life is just a tiny speck in time compared to all that we have to look forward to with out Heavenly Father in the enternity, if we are faithful to him.<P>Okay, enough preaching. I understand your conviction to remain chaste and virtuous, before and during your marriage. I, too, wanted that for myself. Although I had been married before I met my husband, I wanted to reserve intimacy for marriage. It didn't happen that way. He didn't pressure me verbally, but each time we were together, we got closer and closer to that point. He pushed it until I gave in. When I expressed regret for what had happened, he said "Well, I didn't make you!" It stuck as a sore point between us for a long time.<P>I think what the problem was, was that his sexual relationships before our marriage were far too casual--sex first, and if the rest didn't mesh together, oh well. And then on to the next girl. A woman's body meant pleasure for him, and he had come to expect that a woman would just have sex with him, no questions asked.<P>It wasn't like that with me--I was a challenge. And I think that he actually appreciated that. It's why he chose me to be his wife.<P>And that's why your husband loves you--you are a virtuous woman, the only anchor in a sea where he is adrift. You are strong in your morals, and he loves that in you.<P>My husband, too, is deeply addicted to porn. This is actually as disturbing to me as his affair was. It is sexual gratification from a person other than one's spouse, and it is disrespectful to women. It's disrespectful to anyone. God made the human body to house the spirit. A body is a thing of beauty for the simple fact that is contains one's actual person. To consider it to be less--just an object--is disrespect for God's creation.<P>That's what porn does--it depersonalizes individuals for the purpose of sexual gratification. It is what leads one a step further--extramarital affairs.<P>The fact that your husband hides porn from you indicates that he knows and respects your feelings for it, and he knows it's wrong too. If he had the full conviction that it was OK, he wouldn't bother trying to hide it. I think he feels powerless in his addiction to it. That's why he says "well, all men do it, it's normal." He's trying to validate his secret hobby as something acceptable when he knows that it isn't.<P>I know that you do love him, but you want him to be morally clean for the sake of your marriage. <P>Is he open to getting professional counseling for this? If he is a Christian, then will he be willing to read Christian materials that deal with this subject? Ask him if he will, and if not, come back and we'll see if there is any further advice that we can give you.<P>(ps I am from Hawaii, too. Pearl City. I lived right above the Daei on Kam Hwy. And I am sooooo homesick!!!)

Aloha Bernzini,<P>Thanks for your response. It was right on. <P>My H is currently going to individual counseling. However, he doesn't see the "porn" stuff as a real problem, so I don't think he'd be willing to address it in counseling or with materials. I don't know, maybe is he, but I don't think so. If we ever got back together and went to marriage counseling, I guess that is where it would have to be addressed. And if we actually followed the MB principles (which I would like to do), then I think those would address the situation too.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I know that you do love him, but you want him to be morally clean for the sake of your marriage. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So what if he wants to come back (which I don't think he'll do) but still doesn't think he has to deal with this? Do I take him back or not? How then do I think about or hope to reconcile with him? I still believe in my committment to him and I still took a vow "until death do us part." <P>Now that we are separated, do I ignore that vow and say "well, you aren't acting in a moral way, so I can't take you back" and use the separation as my "out?" (Which I don't want!) What happens to the committment at that point? I am still married to him. Don't I grab any chance for reconciliation that comes my way? Or is this a "do-over" for me too? (hope that makes sense).<P>To me it all boils down to a lack of respect for me as his wife. AZ Allison put it "he wanted to marry the little virgin" which is exactly right (no I didn't take it as a slam). I know he DOES see me as a moral anchor in his life in a way. And that is part of the reason he married me. But he has to grow and learn morality too somewhere along the line.<P>So any more advice on how I pray/hope for a reconciliation with him?<P>Mahalo!<BR>Mrs.O<P>(PS I live on 15 acres of old sugar cane land on the Big Island...I love it. I'm originally from Oregon, but this place captured my heart 15 years ago and I'm here to stay....it's such a great place.)