I am feeling skeptical. . .and I am waiting impatiently. I feel that once you get to the point of plan B, there has been too many ugly things that have happened that you just can't take back. I have a feeling that once he's gone, he's gone, unless you meet ten years down the road on the Love Boat and have had time to think about all the crummy things that went wrong when you were "young."<P>I want some sucess stories to give me faith!

I think that just like with anything.. there is not a cookie cutter solution.<P>There are so many different issues/factors involved in each situation that it is hard to say what will work.<P>I have read some success stories involving Plan B. <P>I know that I sort of plan B'd on at least 2 occasions.. The first time at least softened my H allowing me to plan A. <P>The second time got him angry and pushed him in the other direction.... admission of PA, not coming home and an impending D.<P>But as you can read from my posts, H is not happy. In my situation there is some underlying "other" problem. Depression??? who knows. He may not come back, but unless he deals with his issues, he will not be happy. I keep praying for him to see the "light".

Bernzini:<P>There are a few attributes of Plan B that you need to keep in mind:<P>1. Plan B is for an ongoing affair. The primary reason you move to this is because you can't take dealing with the affair anymore. Plan A behavior requires the elimination of lovebusters---and if your spouse is having an affair while living with you (the usual Plan A scenario), it's hard to refrain from lovebusting while it's going on. It's very important to separate from the wayward spouse before:<P>a. You hate them and want divorce<BR>b. You start lovebusting on them, ruining your plan A efforts to CONSISTANTLY exhibit new marital behavior.<P>2. Plan B also brings an added dose of "reality" to affairs. A separation is usually a big deal. It typcially separates the betrayed spouse from the family unit---causing stress. In addition, it allows the OP and the betrayer to be together for "extended" periods of time. This combination can trigger a "elation" period at first, where the wayward spouse and the OP are together in fantasy land---but the fantasy usually starts to crumble. Now the OP is expected to provide for all the wayward spouses needs---and they're usually not up to the task. Fold in some guilt for breaking up a family, and fantasy land starts to cave in. This doesn't happen in all cases, but it's a pretty logical progression for most affairs.<P>And these are "cookie cutter" solutions that indeed do work pretty well (universally). But it's best to work with a "professional" to help tailor these solutions to your specific needs, and that's where I highly recommend the MarriageBuilder's counseling services (888-639-1639).<P>In my case, Plan B was successful after two months, in that I moved back with my wife, and the affair was ended (actually it took a bit longer). It was extraordinary circumstances---she became pregnant shortly after I moved out by the OM (2 weeks---that "honeymoon" for separation). But the reality of a unplanned pregnancy, the pressure of that and the separation on the affair---all of that led to a pretty "nasty" ending (in terms of the OP and my wife) in which the lovebanks were completely drained (hooray!).<P>So, there's your success story. We're together now over 2 years past the date where I moved back, and continuing to do well in recovery---with a marriage that's much better than it ever was.

Oh, yes, I get it now. I thought that I had read the book, but you explained it to me pretty well, K.<P>I am wrong, I guess. The affair is over for all that he is saying, but I don't know. He has not seen her in quite a long while, of course he has not seen either of us because he has been out on ship for the last 6 months. But his depression after they separated for the last time made me so angry. I kept thinking "If you really want the skank, go have her. I don't have to compete with someone like her."<P>I guess our separation is because of my extreme distrust of a person that I thought would never lie, and also because, well, he slept with another woman, I mean, come on! He won't even say he's sorry for it.<P>So I guess my situation is not a real plan B. But thank you for helping me out here.<P>Wow, K, you really must have some love in your heart!

He does. He's our local MB hero!

I'm glad K answered. I thought he was one of the success stories of Plan B.<P>He seems to really have an understanding of the principals involved with MB.<P>To be quite honest, although I have read the books (all of them) and also have had periodic counseling with S.Harley... I couldn't seem to "get it" (MB) until I finally got an admission of the PA.<P>I know it sounds weird, but somehow knowing that it is an affair (both aspects)... has somehow given me something more tangible instead of believing that hes"changed" and that he and she were just close coworkers who share this bond of antimaterialism.<P>SHarley was extrememly helpful. Thought my H had a real "giver snap" (that's actually his take on the MLC). Said my H would get addicted to his job, a hobby (for him ice hockey), and a person. (H did all three). He still gave it the same time frame.<P>

The one thing that I am wondering about:<P>Okay, say you are the wayward spouse. You have the affair, your H/W has enough and does the plan B thing. You go your merry way. Soon that you realize your mistake, and things don't work out with your "soulmate."<P>So, how many people actually take a big juicy slice of humble pie and say "Okay. I'm sorry. Can I come home now?"<P>Not many people, whether they realize their mistakes and are sorry, are that willing to ask for forgiveness for such a grave sin. They understand the garbage that they put their family through and the sacrifices that the betrayed spouse made to see the marriage through when they got it thrown back into his/her face.<P>From what I see, most people who do the affair thing that leads to plan B end up with neither spouse or "soulmate." They have a couple of years to recoup, a better person, I guess, before getting involved in yet a new relationship. This is what I have gathered.<P>Or, maybe yet, they understand what it is to divorce and go through the agony again, so they make resolve to stay with their "soulmate," although they realize by now that the "soulmate" is just another marriage partner, like the one they screwed over.<P>This is the one problem I see with this plan B thing. Failure to ask for forgiveness after such a separation.<P>I may be willing to forgive--if he asks for it. I am not being mean. I just want a verbal expression of his intentions.<P>Like I said, he is in Japan and I am waiting for him to come get me. Every phone conversation we have, I can tell he doesn't want to end it. (He doesn't say it. He says "Well, if you really want to go, I guess you better.") He is anxious about me getting a job here, thus being obligated to stay. He is dragging his feet about sending me paperwork to register my car, getting my son into school, need I say Divorce, and getting out of the apartment and moving into the barracks.<P>But he won't make the connection to bring us back together, either.<P>So tell me, K. How did your wife go about asking to come back, and how did you react to her when she asked?

Bernzini:<P>You should really buy the book if you don't have it (SAA). You're right---and Harley warns about this explicitly.<P>He says (paraphrasing) "if you are expecting your wayward spouse to come home on hands and knees, begging forgiveness and fully ready to recommit---forget it. Most don't."<P>Those who do---recovery is easier.<P>But the beauty is that you don't NEED to have them come back fully sorry and remorseful. You just need them back, and the affair must be over. The more willing they are to work on the marriage, the better the chances.<P>In my case, I didn't really follow the "protocol" exactly. When my wife told me (I actually guessed) that she was pregnant, I told her that I loved her and would support her through this decision (she went to an abortion clinic the morning of the day I found out, and couldn't go through with it. I found out that afternoon).<P>The affair wasn't really "over" yet. But I knew damn well that there was going to be tons of pressure on OM and my wife---and I was sure that I could move back home, help take care of her and the kids, and bide my time in another "Plan A" mode, knowing that this wasn't going to last forever.<P>I remember the affair ending somewhere around a month or two after I moved home. <P>My wife said that she was very sorry for everything she had put me through---but that didn't mean that she was ACTING like she was sorry. Her life had spiraled completely out of control. She was suffering from huge amounts of withdrawal from the OM---she told me that she couldn't imagine having this child without the person she loved so much (OM). She said all sorts of "crazy" things during this time, and would get extremely angry with me.<P>But that was good. She was in "withdrawal" in our marriage (the states of intimacy), and she was back to "conflict". With all the great coaching from Steve, I was able to handle this period with lots of loving support, and this eventually eased her out of withdrawal (with the OM), and back to having loving feelings for me.<P>My wife never had to "ask" forgiveness. I just had to grant it to her. I did that during our separation---I had come to terms with what had happened, what I had done to cause our problems, and how I had improved myself. I could look at myself in a mirror and see that I had done a good job fighting for my marriage. And that I had learned so much from this horrible experience.<P>With that "forgiveness" in my heart, it was much easier for me to reunite with my wife under those circumstances. It's nice to have someone ask for forgiveness (because you can see the acknowledgement of your pain)---but you don't need that as the first step for recovery.

HI B,<BR> <BR> Listen to K, he knows his stuff!!!. Anyway, there are quite a few of Plan B success stories but alot of people don't keep posting. In my case I was in Plan A for 5mos. and went to a strict by the book(Surviving An Affair) Plan B and it lasted for 2weeks, my H very quickly saw things differently.He came back and although recovery has been rocky I think eventually we wil make it. <P>Cutting all contact seems to be key along with the letter giving them a way back, "if the A ends we can talk about reconciliation <BR>"type thing. <P>Have you read Private Lies by Frank Pittman? He claims there is more of a chance that the wayward spouse and betrayed will be back together within 5yrs. than the betrayer marrying his affairee. He also claims that almost all betrayers try to come back in some way . At any rate , it's a great book and helped me tremendously through the nightmare.......LU

Thank You, thank you, K, Lu!!!<P>You must be one of those guys sitting on a rock on some distant mountain, K, and all of us confused mortals come to you for the meaning of life.<P>I did purchase the book SAA right after I discovered the affair, and I read it, but not all that thoroughly. I read the parts I could consentrate on (I was still doing that thing where you can't eat or sleep for days.)<P>I know that I don't need a full admission of guilt. I want to offer my forgiveness if he'll accept it. I think that maybe he is so guilty, he doesn't feel that I could ever get over this. We had a pretty arguementative relationship before any of this happened. I know that he doesn't want this stuff to start again, and neither do I.<P>Somewhere, someone has to bridge the gap. I guess we're like two gunfighters, one waiting for the other to make a move so that we can start shooting--or else make friends.<P>I guess then, that I should call him and say "Come and get me now, I want to come home." (I do want to come home.) Do I make the first move? Is it typical that the BS does this, and that is the beginning of the end of plan B and the start of recovery?<P>Lu:<P>I saw parts of the book you suggested on another thread--did you put that up there? It was excellent and gave me a lot of hope. I would like to see more of this book.

Hi B,<P> I've read alot of your posts but am unsure about some things.....does your H tell you the affair is over and wants to reconcile? <P>When I was trying to decide if it was ok to take my H back since it had only been 2weeks in Plan B ( I didn't want the kids to be torn up again)I told him that he could come back if we went to counseling, the affair was definitely over and we moved . He agreed <P> Btw , there was none of the "I love you so much stuff", basically he said, " he can't do this to the kids and we need to try". I sure wish it was like in the movies where they realize that you are the love of their life and what were they thinking? type of thing.<P>As far as the book, Private Lies, I agree , I really found it so helpful ....Mickey65 posted the info (she was a Plan B sucess too)During the whole thing, I read and reread SAA, Private Lies and had counseling with Steve H. <P>Hang in there B, maybe you do need to make the first attempt at reconciliation IF he is willing to follow some guidelines.....Counseling has to be a must, and that has been our downfall, we moved ,my father became ill and died and our recovery plans have been halfhearted and pretty sloppy. I think in the long run we will make it though.....LU

<B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>But the beauty is that you don't NEED to have them come back fully sorry and remorseful. You just need them back, and the affair must be over. The more willing they are to work on the marriage, the better the chances.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Just a question, K: What if they want to come back, but DON'T want to have to "do anything" i.e. change or work on the marriage? <P>I posted under the topic "Why SHOULD I try to save my marriage" a few days ago and am finding it hard to pray or hope for reconcilliation because my H doesn't think he did anything wrong in the relationship or needs to change. He's disrespectful, into porn on the internet and basically somewhat selfish. He may never come back.<P>But if he did or wanted to, should I take him back and just hope that we will be able to work thru these issues? <P>In many ways, I wish I would have Plan B'd on D-day!! Maybe that would have given him a dose of reality. As it is now, he's moved out and living with OW (since january) and probably wouldn't even notice if I did Plan B....I just think it's gone on too long to affect him...and like Bernzini, too much sh*t has happened. Reality has hit him and he doesn't seem fazed by it.<P>Any suggestions?<P><p>[This message has been edited by Mrs.O (edited August 11, 2000).]

I do not believe that doing Plan A or Plan B or neither makes any difference whatsoever. I have been doing a pretty good Plan A for almost a year and a half. I am nowhere near Plan B, because I am nowhere near losing my love for him, and I doubt if I ever will. But apparently I can commit lovebusters without even being there. Everything is my fault. The fact that we aren't divorced yet is supposedly my fault, in spite of the fact that his lawyer took 3 months to come up with the draft separation agreement, and then his lawyer and mine have been negotiating it ever since. At one point he stopped paying child support because I had not signed the separation agreement, a separation agreement his lawyer hadn't even drafted yet! His losing his job has thrown an extra obstacle in the way, but for all I know that is my fault too. Everytime the OW apparently gets pissed at him, he gets mad at me. When the BS is blamed for everything that is going wrong in his life, it makes no difference what they do or don't do. Plan A and Plan B are based on the assumption that the WS is at least somewhat rational, or will eventually become somewhat rational, and that is not the case when they are suffering from major depression, bipolar, or borderline personality disorder. <P>I really envy those of you who are convinced that they no longer love their spouses.

Nellie,<P>The part about that you aren't divorced yet being your fault really struck me. My W was upset because I didn't reply to her complaint within 35 days, except she didn't know all the nuances of actual date of service.<P>I guess I'll be hearing that soon too!!<P>The grief she's causing our 4 y.o. D.!!<P>Shameful!!!!

I for one am really appreciating these replies. <P>But how about if the WS has a very bizaar personality change. I guess it would be similar to Nellie's or Missy's H's. <P>I remember S Harley telling me that when someone's guilt makes them change so drastically, almost to UNREAL proportions, then their fall will be really hard.<P>What has truly bothered me is that my H never said "I love OP' or "I'm not in love with you"... he said they were close coworkers who have the poverty bond. He said "I have questions and no answers" (but won't tell you the questions. He said "this isn't bout you or Op it is about me" He said "I've changed" but will not tell you into what.<P>He will tell others he is really unhappy and needed to change his life and then will go on into the poverty thing that makes no sense to anyone but OP.<P>lWhat's worse is that he disconnected from the kids. He is a totally different father.<P>It's hard to really know what to work on. So I guess my best move is to just improve my life and be nice to him when he is here.<P>Any other thoughts.

Hi Too Trusting,<P> Your description of your H is right on with the way my H acted. There wasn't the "anitmaterialism" bond but plenty of other strange talk and behaviors. He too had a glazed look in his eyes and he disconnected from the kids(4of them). Fast forward to a year later, he is once again concerned about the kids, the defensiveness is gone and he actually laughs again.( He at one time talked about running his car into a tree.)<P>Your H is acting so bizarre and out of character(like mine did) that he will fall fast and hard. <P>My H is also physcian and Steve thought there was also a "giver snap"......I really really think there is hope if you leave the door open for him.... LU

Yes, my husband did say that he wanted to stay married, and he wanted to work things out (meaning, he wants everything to work itself out while he keeps doing what he's doing.)<P>The day I found pictures of the OW in our apartment, he just so happened to call me from work to say 'Hi.' I told him what I had found and he came rushing home.<P>Amid giving every excuse in the book, he kept saying "You're the one I love." And "It's over." (I found in their ICQ that he had written her an "I love you but I can't take this anymore" letter a couple days before. She held on for a while, though.)<P>He did not admit to sex, or marriage proposal to her, which caused her to leave her husband for him. That was none of my business, he says.<P>So anyway, maybe I am being way too hard on the guy. But I don't think so. This is serious, and I want to know where I stand. I want to know that I am not throwing anymore of my life away if he comes and takes me back to Japan. At the same time, I want him to.<P>Well, I can't stick around tonight--I'm very sick and I had better go to bed.<P>

Wow Lu, Did your H have an affair with his assistant?? At this point I think my H thinks she is the only one who is supporting him.<P>Unfortunately, she is stopping at nothing to get him, and she is costing him his reputation at work.<P>I'll have to search some of your posts. I probably should have talked with S.H. before I backed off and pushed this thing to PA.<P>But i hated that when he was here he was not SEEING me. He was obsessing about being with OP. Before it was like he was cheating on her when he was here with me, now with admittance, it is like he is cheating on me with her.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>So, how many people actually take a big juicy slice of humble pie and say "Okay. I'm sorry. Can I come home now?"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Steve Harley told me most who do come home, especially after an extended period gone, are of the attitude, "Fine. You won. I came back. Are you happy now?"<P>Don't know if I want to put up with that, but I'll wait & see.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

I don't know about the falling hard part, but my H is certainly not falling fast. His uncharacteristic behavior, his anger at me, and his disconnection from the kids just keeps getting worse and worse. He has been unable to find a job in a market that has never been better (probably because of his age) and I think it is destroying what is left of his self-esteem, not to mention the resulting financial problems.