It's just over 6 weeks since d-day, and I was really starting to believe that we could work through this.<BR>He's been working really hard at being there for me...he's been supportive, caring, affectionate (sometimes a little too affectionate)...he listens to my feelings, and tries not to get defensive or angry when I need to play 20 questions or when my 'Sybl' moods hit.<BR>We've both been in therapy for a month or so, and we're both reading a couple of helpful books (His Needs, Her Needs, and another about coping with an affair)<BR>Sounds pretty good doesn't it?...so here's the kicker.<BR>In the beginning he told me that the affair lasted a couple of months, and that he was with her 3 times. She was a source of support for him through a difficult time in our lives. Ok, I've been trying to accept that.<BR>Now it comes out that he's maintained a relationship with her since before we got married. <BR>He has other female friends - all of whom I'm aquainted with...he's always been very open about his contact with them...but not Betty.<BR>His friendship with Betty has always been a secret. I had no idea whatsoever that the two of them talked. She knows things about me that I haven't discussed with anyone except my husband. I feel violated.<BR>He doesn't know why he hid the 'friendship' from me, and he's not sure what his motivation was for maintaining the relationship(before they had sex).<BR>I don't know what to do with this.<BR>Part of me wants to discount it - say that it was just a friendship, and that it really doesn't play a part in where things are at today, but on the other hand...<BR>What if there is more to this - what if he had feelings for her back then? What if she was his 'back door' so to speak - if things didn't work out for us he could always fall back on her...<BR>Was it an emotional affair long before it became physical?<BR>I'm afraid of the answers to these questions - if there is more to this than I've been told doesn't that change where things are at now?<BR>Should I be trying to reconcile with a man who never gave our marriage a fair shot from the beginning?...or am I just so unsure of myself that I'm second guessing something that isn't worth worrying about?

So did they have sex or didn't they? <P>I am not trying to say emotional affairs are better than if they had sex. Just want to understand.<P>I think many men have fallen 'in love' with other women besides their wives at different times in their marriages without following through with anything.<P>I have heard that people have needs and they will stop at nothing to have those needs met. What needs does your husband have that are not being met? Any idea?

Dogbert,<BR>Yes, they did have sex...3X - towards the end of their relationship.<BR>As far as having his needs met - I'm aware of what they are now, as we try to work through this - but at the time of the affair it had never occurred to me to ask him.<BR>If only I had.

What is their status now? Do they still see each other or talk or anything?<P>I had a friend in a similar situation. She and he were married for 6 years and got divorced. Soon thereafter he married a girl he had dated in college and apparently had carried a flame for her the whole time he was married to his wife.<P>Do you mind sharing what his needs are?

Dogbert,<BR>He swears that they are finished. I'm not so sure that she understands that as she has become a borderline stalker (hang-ups and drive by's)<P>I don't mind sharing his needs...they are:<BR>-Sex<BR>-Affection<BR>-Support of his actions and decisions<BR>-Faith in his ability as a provider (he has difficulty keeping jobs)<BR>-Faith and support in his ability as a father<BR>-Trust<P>When I was pregnant with our second child our financial situation was dire - he left town to work in a remote area where the wages were much higher than they are here.<BR>He stayed away for 10 months (visiting occasionally).<BR>It put a tremendous strain on our relationship, which would explain some of the doubts he had in himself, which I think in turn explains his needs.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoDuped:<BR><B>I'm not so sure that she understands that as she has become a borderline stalker (hang-ups and drive by's)<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That is bizarre behavior. Has your H told her to stop?<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>I don't mind sharing his needs...they are:<BR>-Sex<BR>-Affection<BR>-Support of his actions and decisions<BR>-Faith in his ability as a provider (he has difficulty keeping jobs)<BR>-Faith and support in his ability as a father<BR>-Trust<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well I can see where the "Trust" need has been kinda hurt by the affair. But, the one about his ability as a provider - trouble keeping a job. That says a lot to me unless the industry he is in is just plain difficult to be part of. I would say that most men really desire to beat their chests and walk out the door everyday and conquer their world. If they have trouble with that then their core is hurting. So, I wonder what's up with his career?<P>

Dogbert,<BR>Thus far he hasn't asked her to stop for 2 reasons:<BR>1-Putting real effort into maintaining the 'no contact' rule<BR>2-We're afraid that any action on our part will only make things worse. We have 2 small children, and don't want her drive-by's to get confrontational.<P>As far as the job thing goes, he is a heavy equipment tech - there's a pretty high demand where we live. His problem tends to be conflict with supervisors or co-workers.<BR>His mouth gets him fired/laid-off most often.

I have been fired at least once in my past for my attitude. I tend to be very dominant and come across as a jerk at times. Over the years I have learned to be toned down to where it doesn't get me in that kind of trouble. <P>Have you and/or he ever taken personality tests to determine what each of you are? There is a pretty simple one if you are interested I could find if for you. I tend to be dominant as I said and my wife is pretty dominant also and we clash at times.<P>Does he feel he has a lot to prove to either you or his dad/mom? I know that many times my overbearing attitude was probably born out of a need to conquer and prove myself.

Dogbert,<BR>Thanks so much for 'chatting' with me today - I'm supposed to be working, but my head is getting the better of me, and I'm having a hard time focusing - talking it out is much better than wallowing.<P>You said that after a few years you learned to tone down your dominant way - how long was a few years?<P>It's been a long time since I had my personality typed, and I don't know if my husband has ever done it - I'd be interested in giving it a try...a little insight never hurts.<P>You brought up and interesting point - about him maybe wanting to prove himself. He feels that way intensly.<BR>I'm sure there is something in him that wants to prove himself to me, but I'd have to say it's more proving himself to his father.<BR>His dad is a man that he almost worships, but is a lousy role model in my opinion - there is a flaw in everything my husband does in his fathers eyes...he keeps trying soooooo hard for the 'atta boys', but rarely gets them.

Well, I can understand that in him. My mother is the vocal parent and is and was always the one to let me know that I didn't measure up in my child-rearing, the house I chose, the wife I chose or the color I painted my bedroom. My dad was and is simply quiet. A good man. But quiet. So, a large part of my "making it" in society was a reaction to my parents (especially mom) and it almost turned me into a rebellious person. Just the other day my mother and I were talking and I said, "There is not one thing we can agree on. Let's look for something that cannot be disputed and talk about that. Hmm. Look outside. Your thermostat reads 40 degrees. How about that?" She started her little crying spell - well almost.<P>So, your husband must get to the point that even though he desparately wants and needs his father's approval he may not ever get it. I have come to that conclusion with my mom and I feel much better. <P>Tied in closely with this for me is loneliness and an intense drive for companionship which is what I think I missed from my dad. Somehow this whole loneliness factor and my missed out relationship with Dad is tied to my desire for affection and sex from my wife. And because of it (maybe) when I am rejected by my wife for sex, I am much more vulnerable for loneliness. Men are driven more by loneliness than we let on. I know for me I am always looking for friends to go to lunch with or workout with. <P>Do you ever feel lonely?<P>I'll look for the personality survey. I was having a hard time finding them. <P>Do you two attend church anywhere?<P><BR>

Here's a link for a quick overview of the personality types. This may be a quick way to identify your husband and yourself.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.edgelearning.com.au/Ref_Disc.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.edgelearning.com.au/Ref_Disc.htm</A>

Dogbert,<BR>Thanks for the link - I'll give it a try tomorrow...I'm going to have to leave the office soon - I have a parenting seminar to attend...ironic that we would attend something like that together at a time like this...united front my A**!<P>It sounds like your mother and my father in law are very similar in personalities. I'm afraid that my husband hasn't come around to the realization that you have - he just keeps on looking for that aproval - even through this. (His father had many affairs in his 25 yr. marriage - doesn't think my husband should have 'fessed up')<P>What you said about lonliness really hit me - my husband will rarely go and do anything alone - he seems to want company even to run to the corner store...perhaps he is feeling inside like you do?...<P>I on the other hand don't get lonely very often, or should I say that I didn't get lonely often, because now I feel very much alone. Then again, the two are different aren't they?<P>Yes, we do attend church - we've been talking about doing a bible study on marriage - friends of ours recently did, and found it to be quite helpful.

Can I ask you another question?<P>Does your salary match or exceed his? I was in that situation for years where my wife had the stable job (10 years) and made more money than I. Really got my self image down.<P>As far as the loneliness issue. I personally enjoy going to the store alone now so I crank up the stereo and I don't have to answer 1 million questions from my children for a few minutes.<P>But you said something interesting in that you used to never get lonely. I would bet that was one of your husband's biggest problems. My wife is very much like you - independent. She was on her own making her own way in life (surviving) for seven years before she met me. There are other things in her past that causes her to be independent and to not really need people. Her mother had a nervous breakdown from the time she was 7 until she was 15 or so. So she is independent and she really doesn't "NEED" people. So consequently, she has not been really very affectionate toward me and moreover has not really been there in a sexual way for me the way I need. Combine her lack of neediness with my neediness and you have problems. Add to it insecurity and trying to prove yourself to parents and job troubles, and well you have troubles.<P>Perfect opportunity for a nice woman who has more time that you do, and seems to need affection or people or has some of the same loneliness traits as your husband to come along and fall into an co-depency relationship. I have been there as well however I never consumated. <P>I have a long story but suffice it to say that I understand some of your marriage's dynamics.<P>

I thought of something over night and wanted to clarify that I don't think YOU are responsible for his affair. That was his choice. But, I can see how the circumstances were positioned in such a way as to make an affair seem pretty easy to justify and happen.<P>Just wanted to clarify.

Good Morning Dogbert, I hope all is well with you today.<P>To answer your questions...<P>When my husband and I met, I owned my own home and had a job that was stable and paid well - I didn't earn as much as him, but at the time it was certainly enough.<P>When we got married I sold my place, he rolled over some RRSP's, and we bought a house. Within the first year our son was born. We decided that I would stay home for the first year which was the beginning of our financial problems. (At the time maternity leave benefits were only paid for a 6 month period - so I was earning no money at all)<BR>When our son was a year old, I went back to work in a basic 9 - 5 administrative position that paid about half of what my husband was earning.<BR>Shortly after returning to work I became pregnant with our second son.<BR>We knew that we could not maintain our debt load and support 2 children on what we were earning at the time which is why my husband moved away to work.<BR>After the birth of our second son, and many job changes for my husband it became apparent that there was no way we could make ends meet. - He moved back home.<BR>He was very stressed, mentally and emotionally, and in poor physical health - the jobs he had up north were very physically demanding.<BR>Our doctor told him that it would be best for him to take some time off...get some physio-therapy, and rest.<BR>We then decided that he would do as our doctor suggested, so he stayed home, took care of the children, and started physio for himself.<BR>I started a company and landed a contract that pays very well - I am currently earning more than my husband (he just returned to work last week) <BR>I know that this is a tough pill for him to swallow.<BR>I have always been a fairly independant person, but my husband says that is one of the things that attracted him to me - he says he liked that I wanted him in my life, as opposed to 'needing' him in my life.<BR>I don't get the impression that has changed, but now that he is feeling so insecure within himself I don't believe it helps.<BR>Our therapist suggests that when my husband moved back home he was feeling 'put apon'.<BR>I was expecting him to be responsible.<BR>I was expecting him to provide for the family.<BR>I was insensitive to his feeling as a failure.<BR>Betty on the other hand expected nothing.<BR>She was easier to be with than I as she made no demands.<BR>She made him feel better by offering comfort to him in his 'oh soooo impossible situation'. (no sarcasm there)<BR>And you're right - she did need the things that he gave her, and they did become co-dependent.<P>I will say that I am certainly responsible for contributing to our marriage getting to such a bad place - but I agree with you...I am not responsible for how he chose to deal with that fact.<P>It does hurt though, knowing that I couldn't see what he needed from me, and it hurts that he didn't feel he could come to me and at least try to talk it out...instead he turned to her.<P>I understand it, but it still hurts so much that I'm not sure I have the strength to get through it - especially now that I've discovered there may be more to their relationship than I was led to believe.<P>Ugh.

It is not fair is it? That he found an unencumbered woman with (no children?) less responsibility and certainly not the same history the two of you had. You can't really compete against that.<P>Let's see if I can explain a little more about my situation and you see if this sounds like your husband.<P>I met a girl at work. I didn't really talk to her much at first because I was not wanting to give off vibes that I was interested in flirting or whatever. But slowly we both realized we were both Christians. That was our basis of friendship at first. The more we talked the more we got along and the deeper the conversations became. Well, we started to go to lunch together and the strangest emotions came over me during this time - I felt like I was dating and spring was in the air. Time went on and I really didn't understand all this but to make a long story short I was infatuated with how much attention she gave me, how non-judgemental she was and how fun she was. <P>Looking back on it now I can see so clearly that my wife who was (and is) at home raising our kids could not compete with this woman and it makes plenty of sense why she (the other woman) FELT so good to me. She and I had no prior history, we were not raising children or paying a mortgage together, and all we did was see each other at work when we both looked nice and had nothing to do but work, talk, drink coffee and go to lunch. I look back on all that now and realize how wrong I was to have had that emotional attachment. But, I can say I didn't seek it out. It sought me ought due to circumstances and before I knew what was going on I was far down the road.<P>We did not EVER have sex. We never were interested in each other that way. She is very pretty however but our relationship was mostly based (not always) on God and how each of us were struggling to live Christian lives amidst our own depravity and neediness. <P>So as I say, the circumstances were right for me to have an affair but the Lord saw to it to send me this woman who was not interested in an affair at all. <P>You asked me in one post how long it took me to learn to stop shooting off my mouth. I don't remember when it happened because there are occasions when I can still hurt feelings. But over time, my career took off and I became more competent in my profession (I believe because the Lord put me in the right positions to learn and grow) and I became less defensive because I had actually begun to prove something to my self and my wife. So, it is a process.<P>By the way, a little demographics on me. I am 36 years old and have been married to the greatest woman on the earth for 13 years. We have two children, girl 8 and boy 5 that light up our lives. Both of us carried baggage into our marriage and are in the process of working out as much as possible and most of it doesn't even involve each other.<P>You said something that I NEVER thought of and it made me feel better. For the longest time I have always had this feeling in the back of my mind that my wife didn't NEED me. You said your H said he is glad that you WANTED him in your life instead of needing you. I never thought of it in those terms but I will from now on. That can be quite liberating.<P>About 3 1/2 years ago my wife quit her job of 10 years and a very decent salary. My salary had gotten up the point of being able to support us. She did go back to work 1 1/2 years ago for 12 hours a week. And to be honest, I struggle with it a little in my ego. But she, being the survivor, sees it as something that must be done. I'll bet you are like that.

I read something this morning and I will quote it:<P>"A person addicted to love is fully absorbed in the pursuit of love, because love is the greatest need. The desire to be loved can push women (and men) ...into sexual promiscuity and unhealthy relationships. Love is desired, demanded and pursued at all costs. The price many times turns into a compromise of moral values and devaluing of the person who pursued this addiction. Having affairs or one relationship after another to fill the emptiness can become a pattern. Fantasizing can fuel the obsession to escape from painful realities into a world where the illusion of love exists."<P>

Dogbert,<BR>Your right, there was no way I could compete with what she had to offer him. She was involved in a relationship of her own at the time (and I think still is), but not married, and has no children. Certainly no pressure for him to deal with there. Sigh.<BR>Thank you for sharing your story with me - I'm not sure how much is similar to what happened between my husband and Betty - I'm only aware of the sexual relationship they shared...I know nothing of the conversations, or what type of emotional attachment there was - my husband denies there was any, but as I said...I'm not so sure.<BR>You did help me to see his perspective though...he's been unable to explain the how ore why this could have happened, and your story did shed some light on that aspect.<BR>You mentioned that you think I may be a little like your wife in respect to 'doing what must be done'.<BR>I suppose I am like that most often, although it tends to take me a while to see what action is the best to take under the circumstances. Once I make a decision though, I'm pretty quick to take action - ego's aside...there's a family to think of.<BR>Thank you also for your quote - that one certainly had some punch to it...I think I'll print it for my husband to read.<P>Here are my 'demographics'...<BR>I'm 33, and my husband is 36. We're coming up on our 4th anniversary. We have 2 boys, Danny-age 3, and Justin-1 year.<BR>They are my source of strength.<BR>Neither of us had ever been married before this, but certainly had baggage walking in. (don't we all at that age?)<P>Would you be willing to tell me a little bit about what it was like for you and your wife when the affair came out in the open?<BR>What were some of the things that you did to cope?<BR>Have you overcome what the affair did to your relationship?<BR>Is your relationship stronger now?<P>Sorry for all the questions - I'm feeling discouraged today, and looking for a little hope.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoDuped:<BR><B><BR>Would you be willing to tell me a little bit about what it was like for you and your wife when the affair came out in the open?<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I don't know why but I cringe at the word affair. Only because it was one sided (me). Nevertheless you could describe it as an affair of my emotions and my mind so I will preface my subsequent statements with that.<P>Well, I don't know how she dealt with it. I don't remember having any fights over it. I dealt with it internally for the most part and after I realized what I was doing then I was able to 'break off' the emotional attachment. It was hard because she (OW) didn't realize what I was struggling with and didn't really understand why I was so moody and distancing myself. Well, now after not working together for over a year I can have a friendship with her without feeling ANY of those feelings. Why? Because she always turned me back toward my wife and lifted me up to God and encouraged me to work on my marriage. So I did. In the past 2-3 years things between my wife and I are much improved. She is in counseling for issues unrelated to marriage and I am going to counseling myself for issues related to marriage and others. Same man. So it ought to be interesting. <P>My wife is a very unusual person. She takes bad news like a champ. She doesn't seem to ever let anything hit her between the eyes and even with this she didn't lose it. There were a few arguments over it but not many.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>What were some of the things that you did to cope?<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I really prayed to God. I would tell Him everything no matter how ugly it was. For some reason that process led me to investigate my marriage and what it needed and I am still doing it today. Have we arrived? Ha! But we are doing things now that we used to never do (since the babies anyway) like dating. That was something I started because she was so wrapped up in raising kids that she didn't have any further emotional energy to put forth toward trying to improve our marriage. Furthermore she had no idea it needed improving.<P>Another thing is that she used to kiss me like I was her brother. You know? Like little pecks and an aire of "hurry up and get through with this so I can finish folding clothes." I got (God?) her to stop that and actually be present in the moment and kiss me for real. That is another example.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Have you overcome what the affair did to your relationship?<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I think what the 'affair' did for us is that it revealed problems I had no idea we had. Yes, I had always wanted more sex. But, it has turned out that what I really needed and still need, is intimacy from my wife. So, the 'affair' taught us a lot about what it means to be one in spirit and body. But, I still am not perfect and I still struggle with my male urges. But, this too I have totally honest about and she understands and prays for me.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Is your relationship stronger now?<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>si<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Sorry for all the questions - I'm feeling discouraged today, and looking for a little hope.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well, to me it sounds like a good thing that your husband is trying. You said he is showing a little "too much" affection. That statement sounds like something my wife might have said. I have always been the one in the relationship who needed affection. She did not. Just the opposite of what most women say is their number one need. So, that "too much" could be an alarm inside yourself saying "this is uncomfortable."<P>Well, did I succeed in giving you hope? I realize not every situation is the same. But, I thought I would try because I truly felt led to respond to your post in the first place.<P><BR>

Dogbert,<BR>Yes, you did give me some hope...and even a couple of suggestions. (I have a nasty habit of giving 'pecks' instead of 'in the moment' kisses when I'm busy - That has to stop!) Thank you.<BR>I am sorry if I made you uncomfortable by calling your relationship with the OW an affair. I'm afraid that I assumed since you were in this forum that was how you saw it.