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It's just over 6 weeks since d-day, and I was really starting to believe that we could work through this. He's been working really hard at being there for me...he's been supportive, caring, affectionate (sometimes a little too affectionate)...he listens to my feelings, and tries not to get defensive or angry when I need to play 20 questions or when my 'Sybl' moods hit. We've both been in therapy for a month or so, and we're both reading a couple of helpful books (His Needs, Her Needs, and another about coping with an affair) Sounds pretty good doesn't it?...so here's the kicker. In the beginning he told me that the affair lasted a couple of months, and that he was with her 3 times. She was a source of support for him through a difficult time in our lives. Ok, I've been trying to accept that. Now it comes out that he's maintained a relationship with her since before we got married. He has other female friends - all of whom I'm aquainted with...he's always been very open about his contact with them...but not Betty. His friendship with Betty has always been a secret. I had no idea whatsoever that the two of them talked. She knows things about me that I haven't discussed with anyone except my husband. I feel violated. He doesn't know why he hid the 'friendship' from me, and he's not sure what his motivation was for maintaining the relationship(before they had sex). I don't know what to do with this. Part of me wants to discount it - say that it was just a friendship, and that it really doesn't play a part in where things are at today, but on the other hand... What if there is more to this - what if he had feelings for her back then? What if she was his 'back door' so to speak - if things didn't work out for us he could always fall back on her... Was it an emotional affair long before it became physical? I'm afraid of the answers to these questions - if there is more to this than I've been told doesn't that change where things are at now? Should I be trying to reconcile with a man who never gave our marriage a fair shot from the beginning?...or am I just so unsure of myself that I'm second guessing something that isn't worth worrying about?

So did they have sex or didn't they? I am not trying to say emotional affairs are better than if they had sex. Just want to understand.I think many men have fallen 'in love' with other women besides their wives at different times in their marriages without following through with anything.I have heard that people have needs and they will stop at nothing to have those needs met. What needs does your husband have that are not being met? Any idea?

Dogbert, Yes, they did have sex...3X - towards the end of their relationship. As far as having his needs met - I'm aware of what they are now, as we try to work through this - but at the time of the affair it had never occurred to me to ask him. If only I had.

What is their status now? Do they still see each other or talk or anything?I had a friend in a similar situation. She and he were married for 6 years and got divorced. Soon thereafter he married a girl he had dated in college and apparently had carried a flame for her the whole time he was married to his wife.Do you mind sharing what his needs are?

Dogbert, He swears that they are finished. I'm not so sure that she understands that as she has become a borderline stalker (hang-ups and drive by's)I don't mind sharing his needs...they are: -Sex -Affection -Support of his actions and decisions -Faith in his ability as a provider (he has difficulty keeping jobs) -Faith and support in his ability as a father -TrustWhen I was pregnant with our second child our financial situation was dire - he left town to work in a remote area where the wages were much higher than they are here. He stayed away for 10 months (visiting occasionally). It put a tremendous strain on our relationship, which would explain some of the doubts he had in himself, which I think in turn explains his needs.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by SoDuped: I'm not so sure that she understands that as she has become a borderline stalker (hang-ups and drive by's) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That is bizarre behavior. Has your H told her to stop? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I don't mind sharing his needs...they are: -Sex -Affection -Support of his actions and decisions -Faith in his ability as a provider (he has difficulty keeping jobs) -Faith and support in his ability as a father -Trust <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well I can see where the "Trust" need has been kinda hurt by the affair. But, the one about his ability as a provider - trouble keeping a job. That says a lot to me unless the industry he is in is just plain difficult to be part of. I would say that most men really desire to beat their chests and walk out the door everyday and conquer their world. If they have trouble with that then their core is hurting. So, I wonder what's up with his career?

Dogbert, Thus far he hasn't asked her to stop for 2 reasons: 1-Putting real effort into maintaining the 'no contact' rule 2-We're afraid that any action on our part will only make things worse. We have 2 small children, and don't want her drive-by's to get confrontational.As far as the job thing goes, he is a heavy equipment tech - there's a pretty high demand where we live. His problem tends to be conflict with supervisors or co-workers. His mouth gets him fired/laid-off most often.

I have been fired at least once in my past for my attitude. I tend to be very dominant and come across as a jerk at times. Over the years I have learned to be toned down to where it doesn't get me in that kind of trouble. Have you and/or he ever taken personality tests to determine what each of you are? There is a pretty simple one if you are interested I could find if for you. I tend to be dominant as I said and my wife is pretty dominant also and we clash at times.Does he feel he has a lot to prove to either you or his dad/mom? I know that many times my overbearing attitude was probably born out of a need to conquer and prove myself.

Dogbert, Thanks so much for 'chatting' with me today - I'm supposed to be working, but my head is getting the better of me, and I'm having a hard time focusing - talking it out is much better than wallowing.You said that after a few years you learned to tone down your dominant way - how long was a few years?It's been a long time since I had my personality typed, and I don't know if my husband has ever done it - I'd be interested in giving it a try...a little insight never hurts.You brought up and interesting point - about him maybe wanting to prove himself. He feels that way intensly. I'm sure there is something in him that wants to prove himself to me, but I'd have to say it's more proving himself to his father. His dad is a man that he almost worships, but is a lousy role model in my opinion - there is a flaw in everything my husband does in his fathers eyes...he keeps trying soooooo hard for the 'atta boys', but rarely gets them.

Well, I can understand that in him. My mother is the vocal parent and is and was always the one to let me know that I didn't measure up in my child-rearing, the house I chose, the wife I chose or the color I painted my bedroom. My dad was and is simply quiet. A good man. But quiet. So, a large part of my "making it" in society was a reaction to my parents (especially mom) and it almost turned me into a rebellious person. Just the other day my mother and I were talking and I said, "There is not one thing we can agree on. Let's look for something that cannot be disputed and talk about that. Hmm. Look outside. Your thermostat reads 40 degrees. How about that?" She started her little crying spell - well almost.So, your husband must get to the point that even though he desparately wants and needs his father's approval he may not ever get it. I have come to that conclusion with my mom and I feel much better. Tied in closely with this for me is loneliness and an intense drive for companionship which is what I think I missed from my dad. Somehow this whole loneliness factor and my missed out relationship with Dad is tied to my desire for affection and sex from my wife. And because of it (maybe) when I am rejected by my wife for sex, I am much more vulnerable for loneliness. Men are driven more by loneliness than we let on. I know for me I am always looking for friends to go to lunch with or workout with. Do you ever feel lonely?I'll look for the personality survey. I was having a hard time finding them. Do you two attend church anywhere?

Here's a link for a quick overview of the personality types. This may be a quick way to identify your husband and yourself. <A HREF="http://www.edgelearning.com.au/Ref_Disc.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.edgelearning.com.au/Ref_Disc.htm</A>

Dogbert, Thanks for the link - I'll give it a try tomorrow...I'm going to have to leave the office soon - I have a parenting seminar to attend...ironic that we would attend something like that together at a time like this...united front my A**!It sounds like your mother and my father in law are very similar in personalities. I'm afraid that my husband hasn't come around to the realization that you have - he just keeps on looking for that aproval - even through this. (His father had many affairs in his 25 yr. marriage - doesn't think my husband should have 'fessed up')What you said about lonliness really hit me - my husband will rarely go and do anything alone - he seems to want company even to run to the corner store...perhaps he is feeling inside like you do?...I on the other hand don't get lonely very often, or should I say that I didn't get lonely often, because now I feel very much alone. Then again, the two are different aren't they?Yes, we do attend church - we've been talking about doing a bible study on marriage - friends of ours recently did, and found it to be quite helpful.

Can I ask you another question?Does your salary match or exceed his? I was in that situation for years where my wife had the stable job (10 years) and made more money than I. Really got my self image down.As far as the loneliness issue. I personally enjoy going to the store alone now so I crank up the stereo and I don't have to answer 1 million questions from my children for a few minutes.But you said something interesting in that you used to never get lonely. I would bet that was one of your husband's biggest problems. My wife is very much like you - independent. She was on her own making her own way in life (surviving) for seven years before she met me. There are other things in her past that causes her to be independent and to not really need people. Her mother had a nervous breakdown from the time she was 7 until she was 15 or so. So she is independent and she really doesn't "NEED" people. So consequently, she has not been really very affectionate toward me and moreover has not really been there in a sexual way for me the way I need. Combine her lack of neediness with my neediness and you have problems. Add to it insecurity and trying to prove yourself to parents and job troubles, and well you have troubles.Perfect opportunity for a nice woman who has more time that you do, and seems to need affection or people or has some of the same loneliness traits as your husband to come along and fall into an co-depency relationship. I have been there as well however I never consumated. I have a long story but suffice it to say that I understand some of your marriage's dynamics.

I thought of something over night and wanted to clarify that I don't think YOU are responsible for his affair. That was his choice. But, I can see how the circumstances were positioned in such a way as to make an affair seem pretty easy to justify and happen.Just wanted to clarify.

Good Morning Dogbert, I hope all is well with you today.To answer your questions...When my husband and I met, I owned my own home and had a job that was stable and paid well - I didn't earn as much as him, but at the time it was certainly enough.When we got married I sold my place, he rolled over some RRSP's, and we bought a house. Within the first year our son was born. We decided that I would stay home for the first year which was the beginning of our financial problems. (At the time maternity leave benefits were only paid for a 6 month period - so I was earning no money at all) When our son was a year old, I went back to work in a basic 9 - 5 administrative position that paid about half of what my husband was earning. Shortly after returning to work I became pregnant with our second son. We knew that we could not maintain our debt load and support 2 children on what we were earning at the time which is why my husband moved away to work. After the birth of our second son, and many job changes for my husband it became apparent that there was no way we could make ends meet. - He moved back home. He was very stressed, mentally and emotionally, and in poor physical health - the jobs he had up north were very physically demanding. Our doctor told him that it would be best for him to take some time off...get some physio-therapy, and rest. We then decided that he would do as our doctor suggested, so he stayed home, took care of the children, and started physio for himself. I started a company and landed a contract that pays very well - I am currently earning more than my husband (he just returned to work last week) I know that this is a tough pill for him to swallow. I have always been a fairly independant person, but my husband says that is one of the things that attracted him to me - he says he liked that I wanted him in my life, as opposed to 'needing' him in my life. I don't get the impression that has changed, but now that he is feeling so insecure within himself I don't believe it helps. Our therapist suggests that when my husband moved back home he was feeling 'put apon'. I was expecting him to be responsible. I was expecting him to provide for the family. I was insensitive to his feeling as a failure. Betty on the other hand expected nothing. She was easier to be with than I as she made no demands. She made him feel better by offering comfort to him in his 'oh soooo impossible situation'. (no sarcasm there) And you're right - she did need the things that he gave her, and they did become co-dependent.I will say that I am certainly responsible for contributing to our marriage getting to such a bad place - but I agree with you...I am not responsible for how he chose to deal with that fact.It does hurt though, knowing that I couldn't see what he needed from me, and it hurts that he didn't feel he could come to me and at least try to talk it out...instead he turned to her.I understand it, but it still hurts so much that I'm not sure I have the strength to get through it - especially now that I've discovered there may be more to their relationship than I was led to believe.Ugh.

It is not fair is it? That he found an unencumbered woman with (no children?) less responsibility and certainly not the same history the two of you had. You can't really compete against that.Let's see if I can explain a little more about my situation and you see if this sounds like your husband.I met a girl at work. I didn't really talk to her much at first because I was not wanting to give off vibes that I was interested in flirting or whatever. But slowly we both realized we were both Christians. That was our basis of friendship at first. The more we talked the more we got along and the deeper the conversations became. Well, we started to go to lunch together and the strangest emotions came over me during this time - I felt like I was dating and spring was in the air. Time went on and I really didn't understand all this but to make a long story short I was infatuated with how much attention she gave me, how non-judgemental she was and how fun she was. Looking back on it now I can see so clearly that my wife who was (and is) at home raising our kids could not compete with this woman and it makes plenty of sense why she (the other woman) FELT so good to me. She and I had no prior history, we were not raising children or paying a mortgage together, and all we did was see each other at work when we both looked nice and had nothing to do but work, talk, drink coffee and go to lunch. I look back on all that now and realize how wrong I was to have had that emotional attachment. But, I can say I didn't seek it out. It sought me ought due to circumstances and before I knew what was going on I was far down the road.We did not EVER have sex. We never were interested in each other that way. She is very pretty however but our relationship was mostly based (not always) on God and how each of us were struggling to live Christian lives amidst our own depravity and neediness. So as I say, the circumstances were right for me to have an affair but the Lord saw to it to send me this woman who was not interested in an affair at all. You asked me in one post how long it took me to learn to stop shooting off my mouth. I don't remember when it happened because there are occasions when I can still hurt feelings. But over time, my career took off and I became more competent in my profession (I believe because the Lord put me in the right positions to learn and grow) and I became less defensive because I had actually begun to prove something to my self and my wife. So, it is a process.By the way, a little demographics on me. I am 36 years old and have been married to the greatest woman on the earth for 13 years. We have two children, girl 8 and boy 5 that light up our lives. Both of us carried baggage into our marriage and are in the process of working out as much as possible and most of it doesn't even involve each other.You said something that I NEVER thought of and it made me feel better. For the longest time I have always had this feeling in the back of my mind that my wife didn't NEED me. You said your H said he is glad that you WANTED him in your life instead of needing you. I never thought of it in those terms but I will from now on. That can be quite liberating.About 3 1/2 years ago my wife quit her job of 10 years and a very decent salary. My salary had gotten up the point of being able to support us. She did go back to work 1 1/2 years ago for 12 hours a week. And to be honest, I struggle with it a little in my ego. But she, being the survivor, sees it as something that must be done. I'll bet you are like that.

I read something this morning and I will quote it:"A person addicted to love is fully absorbed in the pursuit of love, because love is the greatest need. The desire to be loved can push women (and men) ...into sexual promiscuity and unhealthy relationships. Love is desired, demanded and pursued at all costs. The price many times turns into a compromise of moral values and devaluing of the person who pursued this addiction. Having affairs or one relationship after another to fill the emptiness can become a pattern. Fantasizing can fuel the obsession to escape from painful realities into a world where the illusion of love exists."

Dogbert, Your right, there was no way I could compete with what she had to offer him. She was involved in a relationship of her own at the time (and I think still is), but not married, and has no children. Certainly no pressure for him to deal with there. Sigh. Thank you for sharing your story with me - I'm not sure how much is similar to what happened between my husband and Betty - I'm only aware of the sexual relationship they shared...I know nothing of the conversations, or what type of emotional attachment there was - my husband denies there was any, but as I said...I'm not so sure. You did help me to see his perspective though...he's been unable to explain the how ore why this could have happened, and your story did shed some light on that aspect. You mentioned that you think I may be a little like your wife in respect to 'doing what must be done'. I suppose I am like that most often, although it tends to take me a while to see what action is the best to take under the circumstances. Once I make a decision though, I'm pretty quick to take action - ego's aside...there's a family to think of. Thank you also for your quote - that one certainly had some punch to it...I think I'll print it for my husband to read.Here are my 'demographics'... I'm 33, and my husband is 36. We're coming up on our 4th anniversary. We have 2 boys, Danny-age 3, and Justin-1 year. They are my source of strength. Neither of us had ever been married before this, but certainly had baggage walking in. (don't we all at that age?)Would you be willing to tell me a little bit about what it was like for you and your wife when the affair came out in the open? What were some of the things that you did to cope? Have you overcome what the affair did to your relationship? Is your relationship stronger now?Sorry for all the questions - I'm feeling discouraged today, and looking for a little hope.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by SoDuped: Would you be willing to tell me a little bit about what it was like for you and your wife when the affair came out in the open? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I don't know why but I cringe at the word affair. Only because it was one sided (me). Nevertheless you could describe it as an affair of my emotions and my mind so I will preface my subsequent statements with that.Well, I don't know how she dealt with it. I don't remember having any fights over it. I dealt with it internally for the most part and after I realized what I was doing then I was able to 'break off' the emotional attachment. It was hard because she (OW) didn't realize what I was struggling with and didn't really understand why I was so moody and distancing myself. Well, now after not working together for over a year I can have a friendship with her without feeling ANY of those feelings. Why? Because she always turned me back toward my wife and lifted me up to God and encouraged me to work on my marriage. So I did. In the past 2-3 years things between my wife and I are much improved. She is in counseling for issues unrelated to marriage and I am going to counseling myself for issues related to marriage and others. Same man. So it ought to be interesting. My wife is a very unusual person. She takes bad news like a champ. She doesn't seem to ever let anything hit her between the eyes and even with this she didn't lose it. There were a few arguments over it but not many. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> What were some of the things that you did to cope? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I really prayed to God. I would tell Him everything no matter how ugly it was. For some reason that process led me to investigate my marriage and what it needed and I am still doing it today. Have we arrived? Ha! But we are doing things now that we used to never do (since the babies anyway) like dating. That was something I started because she was so wrapped up in raising kids that she didn't have any further emotional energy to put forth toward trying to improve our marriage. Furthermore she had no idea it needed improving.Another thing is that she used to kiss me like I was her brother. You know? Like little pecks and an aire of "hurry up and get through with this so I can finish folding clothes." I got (God?) her to stop that and actually be present in the moment and kiss me for real. That is another example. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Have you overcome what the affair did to your relationship? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think what the 'affair' did for us is that it revealed problems I had no idea we had. Yes, I had always wanted more sex. But, it has turned out that what I really needed and still need, is intimacy from my wife. So, the 'affair' taught us a lot about what it means to be one in spirit and body. But, I still am not perfect and I still struggle with my male urges. But, this too I have totally honest about and she understands and prays for me. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Is your relationship stronger now? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> si <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Sorry for all the questions - I'm feeling discouraged today, and looking for a little hope. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, to me it sounds like a good thing that your husband is trying. You said he is showing a little "too much" affection. That statement sounds like something my wife might have said. I have always been the one in the relationship who needed affection. She did not. Just the opposite of what most women say is their number one need. So, that "too much" could be an alarm inside yourself saying "this is uncomfortable."Well, did I succeed in giving you hope? I realize not every situation is the same. But, I thought I would try because I truly felt led to respond to your post in the first place.

Dogbert, Yes, you did give me some hope...and even a couple of suggestions. (I have a nasty habit of giving 'pecks' instead of 'in the moment' kisses when I'm busy - That has to stop!) Thank you. I am sorry if I made you uncomfortable by calling your relationship with the OW an affair. I'm afraid that I assumed since you were in this forum that was how you saw it.

So is your husband actively involved in trying to restore your relationship? You said that you were going to print that off and read for him so he must be.

Well it is a long story and I visit this forum from time to time and have "met" a few people here in the past. I originally came to this forum out of curiosity and realized I had some experiences that could be helpful.You don't make me uncomfortable calling it an affair. I guess it was and I don't like it. But upon further investigation, like I said, it could be considered an affair of my mind and emotions.Please don't let me offend you. I can do that but I am not trying to with you. Like I said before I felt the Lord prompting me to respond to you and look forward to anything else I can do. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

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Yes, he is trying very hard and says he's willing to do whatever it takes to get through this. At this point I think I'm the one slowing the process. I'm having a great deal of difficulty dealing with how I feel about the affair. I'm also having trouble getting 'close' to him. He is very much wanting to be intimate...to SHOW me how he feels about me - I on the other hand have images, thoughts and questions in my mind that make being that close to him difficult. We're both in counseling, but haven't touched on these issues yet.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by SoDuped: I'm also having trouble getting 'close' to him. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This is totally understandable and you have the right to be hurt and angry because he violated your trust and relationship. Somehow you have to grieve over the fact you lost something. I don't know how you will do this unless you get it out in the open. But, at some point, if you want the marriage to transcend what it is today or what it used to be yesterday into something you both desire, you will have to come to terms with forgiveness. What most people do (and I have done) is hold on to the hurt and anger for dear life because they mistakenly believe that is their protection against further hurt. It is too risky to let go of it and forgive. It is a process isn't it? You feel that you want assurances from your husband that this will never happen again before you can trust him. You are acting no different than anyone else would in the same situation.He has responsibility as well to uphold his end of the bargain in order to rebuild trust. He seems to be feeling incredible guilt and shame over his actions by 'over-doing' (or repaying his debt) the affection. I know that at least God can forgive us for all our sins without expecting us to promise to not sin again. But, God is God and we are not. God just upholds a high standard for all of us and He asks us to trust Him.

You really hit the nail on the head with that one. True forgiveness is a difficult thing - I AM afraid to do it. I'm afraid that if I do, he'll stop putting so much effort into rebuilding, and I'm afraid of opening myself up to more hurt. My husband is an alcoholic (sober 16 years through AA), and one of the 'slogans' he lives by is 'Let Go, Let God'. I have so much trouble with that idea. It makes me think of the Footprints poem/story...Do you know it? (Two sets of footprints in the sand...until trouble hits, and then there's only one...) I believe that you have to be walking in the sand BEFORE God will carry you. I guess I'm saying that until I start to let it all go, and forgive, I'm not giving God anything to help me with. Does that make sense?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by SoDuped: I'm afraid that if I do, he'll stop putting so much effort into rebuilding, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This is understandable too. We all (humans) do this. We have needs and we demand they be met. Your particular need at this point is to have that trust re-established. And you think you are in control of it. Were you in control of your husband having an affair? No. You admit that your marriage was not what it could have been but he still made his decision.I'll say one more thing. You said you blame him for not talking to you. I know that I could not (at least I thought) tell my wife my innermost secrets because I was afraid she would reject me. She has such a presence about her that seems in control and quite honestly I have her up on a pedestal because she seems to have no real "bad" sins. So, this fear of her reaction kept me from talking to her until I got over this emotional affair of mine.I have a need for my wife to have sex more with me, initiate more, etc. But, so far she has not really become the woman in my head. So, I have to go back to God and say, "Hey I have these needs and all. What do I do?" I know He wants to meet my needs (sexual and otherwise) but until He gets through working in my wife's life what am I supposed to do? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> 'Let Go, Let God'. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That has truth but to me has always sounded trite. I know it works for millions and works for your husband but for me - Ugh! Life is tough! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> It makes me think of the Footprints poem/story...Do you know it? I believe that you have to be walking in the sand BEFORE God will carry you. I guess I'm saying that until I start to let it all go, and forgive, I'm not giving God anything to help me with. Does that make sense?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> There is so much theology tied up in what you have said here I don't know where to begin. I will try. Yes, I know the poem. But, when you said, "I'm not giving God anything to help me with," I noted a philosophy in that statement that a lot of people believe. And that is, "God helps those who help themselves." That statement cannot be found anywhere in scripture. God does NOT want to help those who CAN help themselves. He wants to help the ones who can't which happens to be all of us isn't it? I know for me I have to tell Him the truth that I have no ability to handle the pressures and temptations I face and that I don't even have the ability to create and then maintain certain spiritual disciplines like daily Bible reading or prayer life in order to combat my nature inclinations to sin.I love 1 Peter 5:8 "Be careful! Watch out for attacks from the Devil, YOUR GREAT ENEMY. He prowls around like a roaring lion looking for some victim to devour." Then compare that with the Psalms which tells us we are "like SHEEP who have gone astray." Sounds like a sitting duck if you ask me. So, we are stupid sheep! I will admit it. I am a stupid, powerless and defenseless sheep. I NEED a shepherd in Jesus to be my defender and protector against this lion (Satan).Whew!

It's all about control isn't it?I have been in control of my life until now.I couldn't control my husbands affair. I can't control my feelings now. I have no control over my life.Maybe I'm feeling so lost that on some level I'm trying to 'control' the recovery. Perhaps that is part of my reluctance to forgive?Perhaps that's even why the 'God helps those who helps themselves' philosophy - (I know I touched on a big one there...) Maybe feeling like I'm taking action helps me to feel more in control? I don't discount how powerful the Lord is, or how he guides our lives in ways we'll never understand - I do accept that. I guess that I need to feel that I have a hand in it somehow. (gosh that sounds arrogant!) What you said about not wanting to tell your wife about your innermost secrets for fear of rejection really hit me. I'm now wondering if this was an issue with my husband. I have asked him why he didn't come to me...he shrugs and says he isn't sure, he just felt like he couldn't - the wall between us was too big.So there we were acting like two frightened little sheep waiting for the roaring lion to attack - so he sent us Betty.Perhaps this affair wasn't just a wake-up call for our marriage - maybe it was Gods way of letting us know that we were wondering too far from the flock?Whew is right!

SD -It doesn't sound arrogant to me, but in the light of scriptures it does. And I have said the same things in my trying to control my wife and how she responds to me sexually. I have struggled and tried to control it for years and I feel God is asking me to let it go. And to be honest talking with you has encouraged me to keep on giving it to God and taking it out of my hands because I don't know what He wants to do with her or me. Do I like it? NO W A Y! But I think He is calling me to that just He is calling you. However, that doesn't mean you 'let him off the hook.' He has hurt you and he should never forget it. But, until He gets help for himself to understand what makes him 'tick' he may be doomed for failure in other ways. Maybe even in the same way. You cannot be his reason for not having an affair. That isn't fair and that isn't love freely given. That is selfish love that only loves IF loved. (Lot of love there, huh?)I have to lean on God all of the way because I am defenseless like a sheep and I need God to step in and handle what I cannot. And that is hard to do.I think you are a pretty neat lady!

Thanks for the compliment Dogbert...I've enjoyed talking to you too.Don't worry, I don't plan on letting my husband off the hook, not yet - there's too much work to be done. If he gets the feeling that 'all is well' again I'm afraid that he'll lose the motivation he has now, and we'll never know what makes him tick. I think it's time for him to rediscover himself...he needs to understand his motivations - only then can he answer why he did what he did. Once we know that, then we can start to find out what needs to be changed in our relationship so that this can never EVER happen again. I will not settle for selfish love, and neither should he. If only we could know a little of what Gods plan is... There's that control issue again - If I know where I'm going, it's much easier to follow. Sigh - I suppose I have my own issues to resolve hmmm?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by SoDuped: Sigh - I suppose I have my own issues to resolve hmmm?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sigh - We all do. We all do.

SD - Boy was my Sunday School lesson yesterday for the two of us. We were talking about James 1 and the verses that tell us if we lack wisdom we should ask of God who gives to all liberally. Then the other stipulation is that we must believe we will receive wisdom when we ask because if we don't we are unstable in ALL our ways, tossed about like the sea driven by every wind. And that we should not expect we will receive ANYthing from God. Very tough to chew and even tougher to swallow.I remembered today something I used to do that I must do again. And that is everyday to wake up and commit my body (all my members) to the Lord that I might not sin against Him. This sort of harkens back to Romans 12:2 that reads: "And be not fashioned according to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, and ye may prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God"The key here is in your mind and how you program it. Otherwise how are things?

Dogbert, Nice to hear from you again. Interesting how timely your Sunday School lesson was...after the weekend I've had it's amazing how much that applies. Funny/ironic...I've been praying for guidance and strength, but haven't taken the second step in believing that I will receive. There's always been that iota of doubt. Gosh...I'm beginning to feel ashamed of how weak my faith has become.On another note, I've read your other thread (Theology discussion) and find the topic of that conversation to be playing it's part in my life today. Lust was the issue this weekend between my husband and I. It has caused quite a conflict. He confessed to his use of shall we say 'reading material...?' Betrayl once again...he had promised to stay away from those books given the circumstances, and was unable to do so. I'm afraid he's not strong enough to do the things necessary to save our marriage. Perhaps I should print your other post for him to read?How are things with you?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by SoDuped: There's always been that iota of doubt. Gosh <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> For some reason, when I really sit down and ask "God will you please give me your wisdom concerning this situation," I expect to receive and I always do. I especially use this prayer in dealing with my daughter and son. But I have not really thought in terms of my marriage as much. Big mistake huh? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Betrayl once again...he had promised to stay away from those books given the circumstances, and was unable to do so. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Unfortunately, he hasn't come the place in his life where he can admit to himself and to you he has an addiction (NOTE: for all those more 'open-minded' people who say SOME can look at porn and not be addicted, respond on my other thread on "Theology" and not here). It was only in October that I admitted my addiction to myself and to my wife. Just today I was talking with my counselor about this and he compared it to smoking addiction and that you can never take that first puff. So, I can not even take that first look or I will fall right back in.For you, let me give you a few verses in John 21. You may have read this before. It is Jesus appearing to his disciples after his resurrection. Jesus was on the beach and the disciple were in the boat and were moaning because they hadn't caught any fish. Well Jesus told them to cast on the other side of the boat and they would catch fish. The thing I never paid attention to was that Jesus was on the beach cooking breakfast. He already had fish. But, Peter, who had denied Jesus a few days earlier was the first one to shore after he realized it was Jesus on the shore. What did Jesus ask Peter? Did Jesus say, "Peter, you promised me you would not deny me but you did. Three times! Do you promise to not deny me again?" No he didn't. Jesus asked Peter, "Do you love me?"The point of the story to me is that Jesus knew of Peter's humanness and chose not to do what we do to each other. Jesus showed Peter grace and forgiveness. This verse helps me tremendously when I fall because the shame that pornography brings effects the whole person because it is a sin of the body and the spirit. It is degrading and brings down the spiritual man inside and carries spiritual consequences. It goes way beyond guilt. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I'm afraid he's not strong enough to do the things necessary to save our marriage. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think his confession is a step toward healing. I would not look at it as a lack of desire to work on the marriage. To beat the addiction of pornography takes quite a bit of effort. And the effort comes in acknowledgement, confession and a surrendering of our body to the Lordship of Christ. Everyday I must get up and commit all of my members to Christ, my mind, eyes, mouth, ears, feet, and hands to him. This is my defense against lust. Pornographic addiction certainly cannot be looked at as an isolated event. If he is a Christian he is probably fighting lust on a daily basis and is tormented by it. At this point it doesn't much matter HOW he got addicted. The point is to become un-addicted. And, remember it is not YOUR fault.Bless you.[This message has been edited by Dogbert (edited March 12, 2001).]

Dogbert, Thank you so much for what you've just written!QUOTE: "The point of the story to me is that Jesus knew of Peter's humanness and chose not to do what we do to each other. Jesus showed Peter grace and forgiveness. This verse helps me tremendously when I fall because the shame that pornography brings effects the whole person because it is a sin of the body and the spirit. It is degrading and brings down the spiritual man inside and carries spiritual consequences. It goes way beyond guilt."You have no idea how much I was affected by this part of your note - I didn't even attempt to forgive my husband - I reacted BADLY in my anger and hurt. I put him through so much after he confessed to me - I was truely terrible.It would have been so much better for both of us if I had just asked "Do you still love me?" and then said...Ok, then let's work it through.I'm not sure that he would see his need for 'the Books' as an addiction. He is an alcoholic, and I'm sure would not put magazines in the same catagory as booze. He does however understand how I feel about his need for the books -perhaps that is a start.Thank you for pointing out the effort he was making - I overlooked it in my anger and disappointment - I want so badly for him to stop hurting us that my tendancy is to react without seeing the big picture.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by SoDuped: It would have been so much better for both of us if I had just asked "Do you still love me?" and then said...Ok, then let's work it through. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Again, I am not saying you should allow him to do whatever he wants to do. But maybe the approach could be modified. My wife is the most wonderful person about my addiction. She never has berated me for it and when I fail, I may tell her and she just smiles and says, "Keep trying." <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I'm not sure that he would see his need for 'the Books' as an addiction. He is an alcoholic, and I'm sure would not put magazines in the same catagory as booze. He does however understand how I feel about his need for the books -perhaps that is a start. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> If is not books it would the Internet or TV. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I want so badly for him to stop hurting us that my tendancy is to react without seeing the big picture. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I know. You just want him to quit and you are afraid of another affair.

SD, How about an update.

Good Morning, Sorry for taking so long to get back to you - the children have been sick and I took the last 2 days off work to stay home with them. The computer at home is currently 'a work in progress'...(I've reformatted but haven't reloaded) so work is the only place where I have internet access.Thanks for your last couple of replies...your wife must be an incredibly strong woman. For me it would be difficult to smile and say 'keep trying'. I'm sure it would make it easier for my husband to let me know when he was losing his resolve, but it would be hard to hold my tongue.Your right, I AM afraid of another affair, and I'm afraid that his want of the books brings him that much closer to the possibility. Especially when it's still so easy for him to break his promises.Perhaps when he is able to show me that he's as committed to our marriage as he says he is it will be easier to be encouraging.Time, as always, will tell.

SD -T1 access at work is the thing!Well, I understand that most women would not have such a reaction as does my wife. But she and I talked about it even last night and I told her it was strange. She just said, "Well, at least it is not an affair." So, she understands that I lust and have trouble with it so very often.Now, my natural mind wants her to become sexually something that she may not (and may never) want to become. So I am left with having to rely on God to sustain me during my temptations which are great and happen everyday. I wish that every woman could experience what it is like to walk through a day with us and feel what we do. It is sheer torture.

I have often wished for the opportunity to live in my husbands skin for a day. The chance to experience and understand things the way he does would be worth so much to me. If you don't mind my asking... What kind of woman is it that your mind would wish your wife to be?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by SoDuped: What kind of woman is it that your mind would wish your wife to be?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think that one reason lust is a more difficult proposition for me (and probably for every man alive for all I know) is when I see an attractive woman that I also think is sexy, it reminds me of what I don't have. When I see women dressing sexy it makes me feel I am missing out on something because I don't have that. Faith Hill has a song The Way You Love Me. There is a line that goes: "It's not right, It's not fair, What you're missing Over there."What is it that I want? Well, if I could change my wife I would get her to initiate sex. To make it obvious. To start kissing me in the kitchen or anywhere and lead to the bedroom. I want to feel wanted sexually. What could she do to make me feel wanted sexually? Well it would be nice if we could have sex at other times besides nighttime after the kids are in bed. And the lights are off. But when we do it is super fantastic sex. But, it just seems the same.Also, I would like her to surprise me and lead me into it rather than me trying to or waiting to see if "tonight's the night." Too much guessing. I hate that and when she doesn't initiate I feel very rejected even though she doesn't mean to. She just doesn't feel the need for it like me and doesn't think about it. But, this is somewhat characteristic of her nature. Makin' any sense here?So, since she is the way she is. And our discussions have not really changed her that much I have no choice but to rely on the Lord which is tough. See, I want my wife to be some sexual goddess (I guess) which is pretty unrealistic when I really think about it. And my brain wants her to be this way to ward me off of the temptations I feel. Now I could point to 1 Corinthians 7:5 that states husbands and wives should not withhold from each other in order to protect against temptations. But, that is not always practical either. Sickness, schedules and other things get in the way apart from just sex drive differences.So her temperament is what it is and I have to try and love her the way Christ loved the church and gave his life for her. And since God hasn't chosen to really work in her life that way (yet - I hope) I believe I should rest on God's provision even though it seems to be the most foreign thing to me.Do I sound crazy yet?

Crazy? - NO Human? - YES!!!The sort of things you wish for with your wife are things that I'm sure we all think of from time to time.I know that I've often said to my husband (before the affair) that it would be nice if we could find a way to break the 'bedroom routine' we seemed to have fallen into. He was so glad that I felt that way, as he did too but was afraid to say. The usual obsticals will always be there though...kids, work, courses, schedules, etc... It's hard not to feel rejected - even when the circumstances are beyond anyone's control.How old are your children? Is there anyone who could take them for a weekend sleepover? Perhaps your wife would be open to the idea of a romantic weekend at home ALONE?I know that's one of the things my husband has been asking to do more of since we started trying to work things out.I'm glad that you have your faith to help you through this trial...it would be so much more difficult for you if you didn't.

I can't say I have always kept my faith through this. I have been brought back to my faith because the other ways (that humans naturally do) don't work. It is wrong to expect that you should only have peace in your heart IF ONLY she/he would change. That is not the way God made us. He made us to find our satisfaction in knowing Him alone.My kids are 8 and 5. I am the 'Fixer' and have tried almost everything you can imagine and run up against the wall. So, I have no choice but to rely on God even though it goes against my nature to do so. I don't like it, but what else can you do if you have done everything else?

You're right, we can't expect to find peace in our hearts or minds through others - it sould come from within. My neighbor would say it can only come if you are at peace with yourself AND GOD. (my neighbor is a pastors son, and we have had a few discussions about God of late) Sometimes though, you have to work with others to be able to find that inner peace...like the way you and your wife talk to one another - doesn't it calm you inside when you feel truely understood by her? I'm not suggesting that she become something unnatural to herself in order for you to find peace - I'm saying the higher the level of understanding, the easier acceptance will be, therfor contributing to a more peaceful state.Ok, now I feel like the one who's babbling. Did that make any sense?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by SoDuped: doesn't it calm you inside when you feel truely understood by her? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes and no. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

SD - Good Morning! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

My wife and I have reached a point in our marriage where we don't get so offended by the things we say to each other. Just last night I said that maybe when she gets offended by something I say it could be because she has heard it through years of notions and interpreted my messages accordingly. Instead our typical reaction is to believe the person meant to hurt us with words. Make sense?

Hello SD & DogbertYou guys make so much sense. Dogbert, I understand what you mean by change in lovemaking etc.One day I asked my husband frankly (we don't feel icky in those situations like talking frankly) about his opinion of our present sex life. He said that everything is good. Our technics are good and my part in it is just so satisfying. But you know what he misses? Me wearing fancy negligees and cute stuff like that!I used to wear them at the beginning of our relationship (now 5 years), but since I had my son four years ago, I never lost the weight. Instead, I gained some more pounds and became so accutely aware of those added pounds that I refused to wear anything sexy. I began hiding from him when I had no clothes on. I don't even undress in front of him anymore and I told him why (a month ago). He understands, but I can't help but feel so "un-sexy" and feel that he sees me as that. I began a weight loss program (one of many failed ones)a few weeks ago and I think I've lost maybe two inches around the waist and hips. But there is so much more to lose. I'm signing up at the gym this month-end and hopefull will begin to lose more. It takes such a long time.Dogbert, maybe you could buy your wife something not too revealing at first, as an I love you gift. You could gently suggest that she wear it for you because you love her so much and want to please her. Maybye at first, you don't have to ask her to take it off with you watching, but you could work your way around to that about a week later. Then each month, buy her another one of another color, more and more revealing each time, until one night, she takes the initiative and starts the whole thing. Who knows, she might even go out and buy some herself and surprise the life outta you!!It's worth a try!! GOD BLESS------------------ CPL

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dogbert:My wife and I have reached a point in our marriage where we don't get so offended by the things we say to each other. Just last night I said that maybe when she gets offended by something I say it could be because she has heard it through years of notions and interpreted my messages accordingly. Instead our typical reaction is to believe the person meant to hurt us with words. Make sense?[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Good Morning to you Dogbert.I understand exactly what your saying! It will be so nice when my husband and I have come as far as you and your wife. We are currently at the stage where we're working to change the old thought patterns. We're CAREFULLY bringing up the difficult subjects and reminding eachother that although the subject may be painful to discuss we are not out to cause more suffering or pain by bringing it up. We ask questions to be sure we understand what the other is saying, and talk about our feelings. Then we attend a therapy session together to try and resolve whatever issue came from the discussion. At this point that process helps us to understand eachother without the pressure of having to solve the problem, and helps us to break the hurtful old habits. It also keeps us from the many unresolved conflicts that we were having before we began to see a therapist.On another note, I printed this conversation the other day and took it home for my husband to read. It took him a while to get through it all, but he said that he found it very helpful to read your opinions and perspectives. He felt that you clarified some things that he had been struggling to understand about himself, and was relieved to find that someone else has issues similar to his own. Thank you again for sharing your thoughts with us - you have become quite a touchstone to us both. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Caribgirl, Hi there. Something to think about... Sexy is a concept - not a tangible. For 2 people in love who share a strong physical bond sexy is the idea of what it is like when they're together. It has very little to do with the actual physical attributes of one or the other. It's more about confidence, openness and trust. (at least in my opinion) The idea of 'cute outfits' is a good and even fun one for a relationship that is on solid ground. I know my husband has often expressed an interest in that sort of thing. The problem is the pressure that's presented when something like that is introduced to a relationship that has intimacy issues. I know that if my husband were to ask that of me now, my insecurity would get the better of me and I would feel like I was competing with a fantacy instead of becoming one. Does that make sense to you?Dogbert...what do you think?

Carib-Take it from a guy who's lost 70 pounds - at least twice - that you can do it. I have been thin for over two years now and it really does take a lifestyle change. And I do mean lifestyle change.Sexy to me does mean more than dress. Dressing is part of it. But, it isn't so much that I expect the naughty stuff to be worn, I just want something revealing worn. I think the biggest problem for my wife is just remembering to wear it. I know. I know. She has a full-time job as mother. But it would speak volumes of love to me if the things were worn on a regular basis (once a month / even twice a month) or more than once right after it is given. I think the other issue with that is when a woman puts that stuff on she is obviously saying, "I am ready." That may be more of a scary issue than being afraid it reveals a body that you feel is unsexy.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by SoDuped: but he said that he found it very helpful to read your opinions and perspectives. He felt that you clarified some things that he had been struggling to understand about himself, and was relieved to find that someone else has issues similar to his own. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> If he surfs the net you ought to have him join us. I would be glad to provide moral support about the pornography issue.

Dogbert, Once I get the system up and running again at home he is planning on joining this forum. He's already asked if I'd 'introduce' the two of you - he says he has some ideas/issues that he'd like to run past you before he and I discuss them...Thank you for offering your support - we're both grateful. If the kids cooperate this weekend, I may be able to get enough loaded to run explorer...if I do I'll post and let you know. Do you have access during the weekend?

Great. Bring him on. Yes I have access during the weekend. BTW - Are you 2 believers? I don't if I asked you.

Hi SoDupedThanks for your opinion. I didn't mean to sound like sexy outwardly means all.It's just that for me, that's the issue I'm dealing with. Let's just say that I've always been considered sexy since my teen-age days, and my idea of that has not really changed. Just my body has changed and I can't seem to get past that bulk (in more ways than one!)I know it's a concept, but it has tremendous influence on my self-confidence where my husband's concerned. I know he thinks I'm sexy still, but I thought I could improve a bit, you know, put even more sparks in the bedroom (although we steam it up pretty good on a regular basis!!)Thanks for your imput.TO: DOGBERT Thanks for your imput as well. I know all about the weight thing. I congratulate you on the fact that you've lost 70 pounds and twice!! I would like to lose 50 pounds just once - is that asking too much? Well, I think I'm ready mentally - at least I'm visiting the gym this afternoon after work, and signing up at the end of the month.Maybe then I could get some of those little things. But it's tru, my husband would like to see me in more lingeree. He doesn't pressure me, he only told me once, and that was because I asked.Keep up the good work.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Caribgirl: I would like to lose 50 pounds just once - is that asking too much? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Of course not.Here are some things to remember:1) Keep always in your mind what you want to look like and feel like. This should be your driving force. It should be visualized when you are out to eat and are deciding whether to order the lasagna or the herb chicken. 2) Remember that once the weight is off your body will try to put it on. So, a change in diet for the rest of your life is in order and so is exercise. You have to BECOME an active person and not just someone who hates to exercise.3) A pound is equal to 3500 calories. You must burn more than you take in.4) Aerobic exercise is the key to taking off weight. Exercise no less than 30 minutes. Walking, basketball (girls play yes?), running, cycling (my personal favorite!) or treadmill (ugh!). It is only after 20 minutes of continuous aerobic activity that your body stops using the carbohydrates you have eaten for its energy source to continue exercising. After 20 minutes the body begins to use the fat stores on your body for fuel.5) It is important to cut back on carbs, and eat carbs when you know you are going to be exercising soon enough to burn them off.Here is a link to some info you may care about. On Lance Armstrong's web site there is an article about calories in vs. calories out. <A HREF="http://www.lancearmstrong.com/greenbook.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.lancearmstrong.com/greenbook.html</A>

Dogbert... Yes, we're both believers, although due to the AA influence Joe considers himself to be more spiritual than religious. It can sometimes be an obstical, but not often.Caribgirl... Didn't mean to sound judgemental there...sorry. I do have an idea of what you're going through though...when I was pregnant with my first I gained 85lbs. That was a tough one to accept as I started at 105lbs. When I had the baby I only lost 20 lbs or so - I was soooo disappointed - I was somehow expecting to walk out of the hospital in my pre-pregnant clothes!! It took over a year to loose most of the weight...and then I was pregnant again!It takes time to get back into shape, but you CAN do it!! Kathy Smith after pregnancy workouts are great...you can do them at home, and she really knows how to target the tough areas...They worked really well for me.Good luck - You CAN do it!!

I am going to make both of you sick. There is a friend of mine who is about to deliver baby #3. I looked at her Sunday and she said she would have her flat tummy in about 2 months. She said she had only gained 8 pounds (all baby)! The first baby she gained 35 pounds and the doctor told her it wasn't necessary to gain much weight.Don't you hate that?

Yup...I hate that. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

.[This message has been edited by Dogbert (edited March 17, 2001).]

I have been reading the book called Boundaries today. My wife has read most of the book and I am getting interested in it as well. Anyway, it talks about many things related to how we relate to people. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> "Sherrie became exquisitely aware of his (husband) moods, and especailly senstive to things that could set him off: lateness, disagreements, and her own anger. As long as she was quiet and agreeable, things went well. But let her preferences raise their ugly heads and she risked getting her head lopped off.Sherrie learned to read Walt well, and quickly. After sensing that she was crossing an emotional line, she would employ Stage two of "Loveing Walt": She did an immediate backtrack. Coming around to his viewpoint (but not really), quitely holding her tongue, or even outrightly apologizing for being "hard to live with" all helped. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I read that and thought this could go either way. And I'll bet you there are millions of men are in this boat with their wives. I know I have been for years watching and seeing what her emotional state of being might be and acting accordingly in order to maintain the peace. I allowed her to control the temperature of the relationship with her anger or emotional withdrawal. Sometimes (many times) her anger was justified but there have been many times it was not and because of my fear I would give in to keep peace. Thankfully now she is dealing with her anger. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> "Fear of being alone keeps many in hurtful patterns for years. They are afraid that if they set boundaries they will not have any love in their life." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I like the above quote as well. It has been my fear of losing intimacy or love that kept me from dealing with my dissatisfaction in a straightforward way and instead I kept it all inside. And when this other woman came along I fell for her hook, line and sinker. I think this insecurity of mine is also how I allowed myself to fall into pornography addiction.Of course the addiction it my choice and it is a sinful choice. But the reasoning behind my doing it, the strong pull of it has had a lot to do with this fear of losing love if I were to deal with my dissatisfaction head on. So the easy choice was to leave it as is and try to have my emotional need met through pornography. Which never works by the way.I have never stood up for what I wanted ly because of the fear of losing love. I can remember it has only been in the past 3 years I have been able to say to myself, "Yeah whatever" when she gets mad at me and not feel internally that she was ripping my heart out. (And I don't mean on subject related to sex. I just mean in general.)So now comes the difficult decisions. How do you state what you want and allow the uncomfortable emotions come? I know that in the meantime I am relying on the Lord as much as possible but I don't think I should sit idly by and do nothing. On the other hand I don't think I should let my dissatisfaction drive me to insanity the way it has most of my marriage.I was telling the Lord just the other morning that way back when we first were married that I didn't have the ability to deal and talk with her about my feelings regarding our unsatisfactory sex life (at least in my view). And what I did early on to soothe the pain was to turn to pornography. I told Him I wish I had dealt with it properly and now I asked Him to provide me with the wisdom to deal with it the way I should have back then.Oh well. I am rambling now.

Dogbert, Yahoo!!!! (as we say where I live) I'm finally up and running at home. Ok, so it's really late Sunday evening, and my husband is now sleeping...but this system is finally behaving!! (it was a long haul...Granny even took the kids to give me more time to tinker...) As soon as my husband & I are able we will get him a membership and introduce you two. He's very much looking forward to talking with you.I found the quotes you shared (by the way...how do you do that?) from the Boundaries book to be interesting...I'd have to say that I've become the thermometer in our relationship lately. Since the affair came to light, my husband has been almost forced into a 'reactive position'. By that I mean reacting to any given situation more based on my mood than his own feelings on the matter. I honestly have no idea how he feels about that. Would I be in denial if I were to say it was a temporary situation due to the after effects of finding out that he's been with another woman? Hmmm - need to spend some time on that one.As for the pornography issue... There has been more fallout on the subject this weekend. My husband has done nothing in terms of adding to the problem, more that my own head has been having difficulty.I've been feeling so angry and resentful - it's been eating away at me for days. There I was thinking we had handled it all so well...until we started talking about it this morning. I didn't realize I was so angry. The poor man has no idea what to do with me. Heck, I have no idea what to do with me. Hence the fact that he's upstairs slumbering, and I'm here, in front of the computer...yet again.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by SoDuped: He's very much looking forward to talking with you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Cool. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I found the quotes you shared (by the way...how do you do that?) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Click the pencil icon next to the post and it will open an edit (TEXTAREA) box and you will see the tags that create a quote. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> As for the pornography issue...more that my own head has been having difficulty. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Why are you having difficulty with the pornography? Not that you shouldn't. But, what are the feelings you have?

Whewww - I just found these posts and there are a lot to read! Sounds like you two have been good for each other. I have one question for you Dogbert....It seems like sex is very important you. I think if your wife had sex with you everyday, you would think of your marriage as absolutely wonderful. I am a woman, and I am married. My husband wants sex everyday - but frankly - I am not interested in sex. Yes, I love sex, but not when I am pressured into having it. Have you ever tried laying off the sex for awhile and see how your wife responds to that? Are you nice and affectionate to your wife ALL the time - not ONLY when you want sex?? Have you ever asked your wife why she is not that interested in sex?? I think what caribgirl wrote about buying something sexy for her to wear is a good idea. I would love for my husband to buy me something sexy to wear. I would never buy it for myself, because I think he would think of me in a wrong way if I did. Like you said - afterall, she is the mother of your children. Anything wrong with her being a "slut" in your bedroom? This something else I wish my husband would let me be - but again - I am the mother of his children - I shouldn't act that way.Since there were a lot of messages between you and soduped, I started scanning through them - so I might have missed some things. One thing I can't seem to find is the part about Soduped's husband addiction to pornography. Soduped? What is so wrong about your husband looking at pornography?? Let's face it - we don't have the bodies that these girls have in the magazines - is it so wrong for him to look at them? He is never going to run away with them. My husband thinks pornography is disgusting - sometimes I wish he would look some. Sorry if I am coming across as being very blunt in what I say - but that is part of my nature - lol.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by OpenMinded: It seems like sex is very important you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Of course. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I think if your wife had sex with you everyday, you would think of your marriage as absolutely wonderful. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I already do think it is absolutely wonderful. Just need some tweaking. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Have you ever tried laying off the sex for awhile and see how your wife responds to that? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Are you nice and affectionate to your wife ALL the time - not ONLY when you want sex?? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> NO WAY! I am mean as a snake! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

All the time! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Have you ever asked your wife why she is not that interested in sex?? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Oh yeah. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I think what caribgirl wrote about buying something sexy for her to wear is a good idea. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Let's not talk about that. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

There are a few things that have been worn once or not at all. And I am not talking about really wild stuff either. This does bother me but I refuse to let it derail my attitude and take away my joy. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Anything wrong with her being a "slut" in your bedroom? This something else I wish my husband would let me be - but again - I am the mother of his children - I shouldn't act that way. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I have been waiting for that for years! I have no issues with sex that I know of. I would do it anywhere, anytime and in anyway (minus third parties or public places). But that is me. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> What is so wrong about your husband looking at pornography?? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It involves a 3rd party and it desensitizes a man to his wife. Plus, the addictive nature of it only means that you will need more and more of it to achieve the adrenaline rush.

Dogbert & Openminded... I'm going to try and answer both your questions in regards to the problem I have with my husband and his 'books'. Please bear with me, as I am still trying to sort this one out.Up until the affair, I didn't have much of an issue with the pornography - I didn't necessairily like it, but I did accept it as something that was part of my 'blue collar redneck guy's' nature. After my husband told me he had been with someone else, I was no longer comfortable with him looking at his books...they fed the insecurity that the affair created...that I wasn't enough for him. I felt as though I was competing with with not only the other woman, but the fantacys in the magazines as well. My husband PROMISED me that until I felt more comfortable with things, he would put the books away. That lasted for a few weeks, until the fact that we had not been intimate in a while became too much for his lebido...and he decided to pull the books out one afternoon, and entertain himself.I'm having a problem with all this because... -My husband PROMISED to leave the books alone -he broke that promise for the sake of his own gratification -he broke my trust in him AGAIN...for the sake of his own gratification -his actions make me feel that where I'm at emotionally in all this is unimportant -his actions reinforce my perception that I am not enough for him...and that it's only a matter of time before he turns to a person for gratification instead of a book.In terms of my anger...it's more about the entire situation, not just the pornography. I'm angry at him for having an affair, I'm angry at how I now feel about my husband, myself, and our marriage because of the affair. I'm angry at having to go through all this. I'm angry that thus far Betty has suffered no concenquences I'm angry that my children have been affected by something so base. In general I'm just feeling angry.I realize that this is a 'stage' in the process, but so far I'm unsure how to handle it - and so is my husband. He wants so badly to help, but I'm too angry to be open to his attempts. Ugh!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by SoDuped: Up until the affair, I didn't have much of an issue with the pornography - I didn't necessairily like it, but I did accept it as something that was part of my 'blue collar redneck guy's' nature. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I am a white collar guy. I don't think that has anything to do with it. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> After my husband told me he had been with someone else, I was no longer comfortable with him looking at his books...they fed the insecurity that the affair created...that I wasn't enough for him. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This is understandable and maybe why my wife is not as upset as you are. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I felt as though I was competing with with not only the other woman, but the fantacys in the magazines as well. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You are not competing with those women in those magazines. Trust me. For me, it always was a last resort after I could not seem to get sexually satisfied that I turned to those. Couple that with an adrenaline rush that porn gives you and you have the makings for a strong addiction. Does this excuse the looking? No. We men need to learn better ways of dealing with our disappointments and struggles sexually. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I'm having a problem with all this because... -My husband PROMISED to leave the books alone <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Would it be different if this were cigarettes? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> -he broke that promise for the sake of his own gratification <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> -he broke my trust in him AGAIN...for the sake of his own gratification <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Men think about sex around 6 times a minute or hour. I can't remember what the number is. But, it is hormonal and we cannot stop that. We can only work (pray) to get the passions under control so that we don't satisfy the normal desires in a sinful way. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> -his actions reinforce my perception that I am not enough for him <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Can this be proven or is it just a fear? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I'm angry at him for having an affair <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This is normal and expected. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I'm angry that thus far Betty has suffered no concenquences <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Romans 12:19 "Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord." <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> He wants so badly to help, but I'm too angry to be open to his attempts. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hoo Boy.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dogbert: [QUOTE] You are not competing with those women in those magazines. Trust me. For me, it always was a last resort after I could not seem to get sexually satisfied that I turned to those. Couple that with an adrenaline rush that porn gives you and you have the makings for a strong addiction. Does this excuse the looking? No. We men need to learn better ways of dealing with our disappointments and struggles sexually. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> How can I not feel as though I'm competing? - He wasn't even thinking of me! He was looking at and thinking of complete strangers. Couldn't the same adreneline rush come from creating a fantasy with he and I in his mind? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Would it be different if this were cigarettes? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes, it would be different. I would be dissappointed in him if he broke a promise to quit smoking...but I certainly wouldn't be emotionally affected...nor would I feel betrayed. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Men think about sex around 6 times a minute or hour. I can't remember what the number is. But, it is hormonal and we cannot stop that. We can only work (pray) to get the passions under control so that we don't satisfy the normal desires in a sinful way. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I also think about sex often - perhaps not as often as the average male, but still often. Those thoughts however do NOT cause me to have uncontrolable urges that must be acted apon NOW. I am perfectly capable of waiting for a time when I can be with my husband. I don't understand why this is not possible for some men...especially my husband. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> -his actions reinforce my perception that I am not enough for himCan this be proven or is it just a fear? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Given that it's my perception, it probably is rooted in fear...but how do I deal with that? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I'm angry that thus far Betty has suffered no concenquences Romans 12:19 "Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> There's that 'let go - let God thing again... <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> He wants so badly to help, but I'm too angry to be open to his attempts. Hoo Boy. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hoo Boy is right.

I can wait as long as I realize there are legitimate reasons (e.g. sickness, travel, 'that' time of the month, fatigue, laundry, etc.). But beyond that, I can't think of a reason to not have sex as long as everything else between a man and wife is going well. And when I can tell things are going well between us as evidenced by her smile and warm conversation and letting me hug her and kiss her when I walk in the door, I don't quite get it as to why we don't have it.I would wonder whether your husband feels some kind of insecurity outside the bedroom in relating to you. I don't think there are many men who would prefer to have sex with himself instead of his wife. There must be something going on there.As far as you being able to wait - your hormones don't drive you as a woman to need sex. Testosterone is at lower levels because you are female than they are in his body. The tension that testosterone builds will exhibit its energy in some way and usually that involves a body part. Some men can work a lot or delve into some rigurous activity and keep it somewhat under control. But it is still there.1 Corinthians 7 2 Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband. 3 Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5 Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6 But I say this as a concession, not as a commandment. 7 For I wish that all men were even as I myself. But each one has his own gift from God, one in this manner and another in that. 8 But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they remain even as I am; 9 but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dogbert: And when I can tell things are going well between us as evidenced by her smile and warm conversation and letting me hug her and kiss her when I walk in the door, I don't quite get it as to why we don't have it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ugh...the differences between the male and female minds - Sometimes I think I'll never understand them. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I would wonder whether your husband feels some kind of insecurity outside the bedroom in relating to you. I don't think there are many men who would prefer to have sex with himself instead of his wife. There must be something going on there. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I'm not sure it's so much a preference as it is a necessity in his mind. Due to my thoughts and feelings regarding the affair, I have a great deal of trouble being intimate with him. Some days I'm ok, but others I can't get past the things in my head, and deny him. It's then that he turns to....well, you know.Now this train of thought brings me to a question that I've asked my husband, but he doesn't seem to understand well enough to answer...Where in the midst of all this physical need and desire for sex is the emotion? Is not lovemaking the ultimate expression of feelings between two people? Does it not express a certain level of trust and openness that cannot be achieved without true intimacy?That's what lovemaking is to me. I need to feel a degree of all those things to feel open to making love. It goes beyond the physical for me.When is it like that for a man?(I do realize that it isn't that way everytime...heck, before all this happened I was a big fan of a good ol' fashioned quickie...but right now, I need more...I'm looking to feel the emotion - given how shaken the relationship is today.)Am I asking for the impossible?[This message has been edited by SoDuped (edited March 19, 2001).]

Well, one of the things I am working on with my wife right now are 'triggers.' You know the things that happen to you that remind you of some bad experience and cause you to react in a way that is not in sync with the current experience? Of course you do. When your husband wants to make love, it 'triggers' an emotional reaction in your brain and you unconsciously (well for you it would be consciously) react negatively to an otherwise normal thing: your husband wanting to make love.Last night I built a nice wall out of those castle wall blocks that are so popular nowadays. 70 of 'em. Last night after it was over she was putting dishes away and I came into the kitchen and I smiled and asked, "Are you going to put all of those dishes away?" Well she rattle off a few other 'urgent' things she had to do but I knew she unconsciously was stalling me. She knew what I wanted.So she got in the bed and we talked and she said, "I know that you are not doing this to me. But it feels like when you do something big for me you expect sex." She admitted that in the past I have done this and she has been holding on to it and it negatively effects the present. A trigger.Well I told her that yesterday while we were at Lowe's buying the blocks and last night while I was putting them in I felt blended together with her emotionally and it felt natural to make love. That sex was a way to cap off the rest of the day. She interpreted it differently - as a payment. Now if we have been fighting and she is still carrying a grudge, I can still have sex because the testosterone is pumping (as always) and it would not have much of an emotional attachment in the least. So it is possible to do either one. It seems that women can ONLY have sex when they feel emotionally attached otherwise it feels like rape. Why? I don't know because to us that sounds wierd.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dogbert: Well I told her that yesterday while we were at Lowe's buying the blocks and last night while I was putting them in I felt blended together with her emotionally and it felt natural to make love. That sex was a way to cap off the rest of the day. She interpreted it differently - as a payment. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> After you talked, was she able to see your perspective, or did she still have trouble getting around the 'trigger'? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Now if we have been fighting and she is still carrying a grudge, I can still have sex because the testosterone is pumping (as always) and it would not have much of an emotional attachment in the least. So it is possible to do either one. It seems that women can ONLY have sex when they feel emotionally attached otherwise it feels like rape. Why? I don't know because to us that sounds wierd. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Wierd huh? Thanks. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Do you know how your wife feels about emotional vs physical sex?

RE: Trigger. She was able to see and understand it but it is yet to be seen how much that knowledge will change things. I can only hope. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by SoDuped: Do you know how your wife feels about emotional vs physical sex?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I am fairly certain she feels like you - has to feel an emotional connection to want sex. But the depth of the 'connection' is a mystery to me and I am sure she could not describe it to me. It is one of those "you just know when" feelings. It would seem that if I were a good guy, met her emotional needs and helped around the house and all that (not because I have to or am trying to get anything - just loving her and helping to support the business of the family) she would be interested. But I think it goes way beyond all that when you are married and have kids. I think it takes thought and priority. [This message has been edited by Dogbert (edited March 19, 2001).]

Ironically, my husband spits out an interesting quote whenever friends bring up the topic of sex."For a Woman, sex begins in the morning...for a Man, sex begins the moment he drops his pants."For a woman to be interested in having sex that evening, things must happen throughout the day to hold her interest in the idea. Generally speaking...expressions of AFFECTION. If a man (husband) doesn't start thinking about sex prior to the moment he drops his pants, or fulfilling his partners needs in regards to creating the desire to have sex...then it ain't gonna happen.It's a little black and white...but the idea is a valid one.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by SoDuped: "For a Woman, sex begins in the morning...for a Man, sex begins the moment he drops his pants." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Is this the way he feels?I hope not.

I'm not saying that's how he feels...it's just an analogy he uses on occassion. In general he's pretty careful to keep the momentum (so to speak) going in terms of intimacy, especially now. The problem is mostly in my own head. I can't help but feel sometimes that it's more the act he's after as opposed to the intimacy...which was the topic of conversation this weekend. I seem to have a great deal of trouble communicating my feelings on the subject. In most cases I feel like I confuse him more than anything. And of course there's that male/female mind barrier that keeps me from fully understanding the things he has to say. We're still trying though...I'm hoping that with time and persistance we can learn to understand eachother where this issue is concerned.

I guess SoDuped is masquerading under her husband's new account Wanting it to work?

Masquerading? Now there wouldn't be much point to that would there?I did help him to get a membership...he's new at working with computers - but that's it...the rest is up to him.

So I guess you think he may not do anything huh? You sound miffed.I was thinking about lust today while I was at Target. Being there and seeing all the new ladies fashions for spring, women looking at bathing suits, and the nice looking women who were just shopping reminded me of how lonely I feel. That sounds strange doesn't it? I didn't lust (defined as seeing a particular woman [real or imagined] and having sex with her in my mind) after anyone. Just the images reminded me of sex. And it hurt me somewhere deep inside that I don't know how to describe it. I drove away feeling lonely and discouraged. At other times, these feelings make me feel high. Like it must feel on drugs of some kind. I feel invincible and confident.I guess it is hard to understand and maybe harder to explain to a woman. But, having sex is absolutely the best thing a wife can do to love her husband. And it doesn't fall into the category of gift giving. It is so much more than that. Oh! The way it makes me feel is enough to make me emotional. It is not some anscillary side thing. Sex is the core of most men and when that is ignored, or treated tritely, husbands feel wounded and discouraged. Then when we feel berated for trying to have sex and are accused of try to extract 'payment' for our goodness - well, it hurts pretty bad.

I'm not so much miffed as I am concerned. I was looking forward to my husband getting involved with this website, and after seeing the frustration and impatience he displayed last night as he was trying to post his message to you I became a little discouraged. I'm afraid that he will let his impatience get the better of him, and won't take the time to post. (he's a finger pecker typist.) Once again...time will tell.So...let's talk about your shopping trip to Target.Is it possible that the times when you have the invincible confident feelings you described after a situation like that are about power or a dominant position? Perhaps in the past when you wern't dealing with your pornography issue, you could watch other women going about their daily routines, think about sex, and then take action...Just the knowledge of that possibility would be enough to make anyone feel like they were on a 'high'.Since you are now trying to cope in another way, you know that high isn't an option. Therefor you are left with 2 possibilities - going home to be with your wife, or having your wife deny you. That's a thought that would leave me feeling lonely and discouraged too. I'd probably even be afraid to approach her if I thought there was a possibility of rejection...hence more lonliness.I could be way off base here - but the emotions you described were so visceral that this is how I related.If only we women/wives could see how deeply our husbands can feel about sexual intimacy. If we knew that it truly touched you to your core no matter what the motivation, we would never have reason to feel used, or obligated. As a matter of fact, our desire to feel that deep emotional/physical connection with you (our husbands)would likely increase our desire for you...if we could see that you were touched on such a deep emotional level. How could we refuse the very thing we keep asking you for?So why is it that we so rarely see that...even if it is the case? Perhaps it's something in the approach? Or are we blind because we don't understand the way you express your emotions?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by SoDuped: (he's a finger pecker typist.) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Maybe he feels a finger at his back. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Is it possible that the times when you have the invincible confident feelings you described after a situation like that are about power or a dominant position? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No if you mean like 'conquering'. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Perhaps in the past when you wern't dealing with your pornography issue...Since you are now trying to cope in another way, you know that high isn't an option. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I have thought about this and it is a real possibility. There was a rock group called Mr. Big and they had a song called "Addicted to that Rush." I think this is what they had in mind. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Porn was always an option I didn't really want and only did so after failing at my attempts to connect with my wife. Bad choices I know, but it was easier. And I always left feeling very sad about myself. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Therefor you are left with 2 possibilities - going home to be with your wife, or having your wife deny you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think I know what my odds are. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> That's a thought that would leave me feeling lonely and discouraged too. I'd probably even be afraid to approach her if I thought there was a possibility of rejection...hence more lonliness. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I keep hearing from some "Leave it alone so she can want you." Well, that is awfully difficult. But, with God's help I am moving that direction. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> If only we women/wives could see how deeply our husbands can feel about sexual intimacy. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You have NO IDEA the power in a sexual encounter! For a wife to walk up to her husband and start kissing him and lead him to the bedroom is the ultimate. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> If we knew that it truly touched you to your core no matter what the motivation, we would never have reason to feel used, or obligated. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> And how do you communicate that?

I just realized that I posted you a message under my husbands signon last night...no wonder your masquerading post didn't make any sense...my message was on the page before, so I didn't even see it...SORRY!! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Maybe he feels a finger at his back. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You have a point there. I'll lay off. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> if you mean like 'conquering'. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No, I mean like having the power to take action...knowing you will be satisified one way or the other. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Porn was always an option I didn't really want and only did so after failing at my attempts to connect with my wife. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> If it was something you didn't really want, then how is it something that 'worked' for you? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I keep hearing from some "Leave it alone so she can want you." Well, that is awfully difficult. But, with God's help I am moving that direction. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> As a bit of an oversensitive person these days I would ask you to be careful with that one...sometimes when my husband 'leaves things alone' for too long I begin to mistakenly feel as though he doesn't want me. A little 'catch 22' there. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> And how do you communicate that? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I wish I knew.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> No, I mean like having the power to take action...knowing you will be satisified one way or the other. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> NO. It is just that the man's brain gets flooded with hormones that make him feel great! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> If it was something you didn't really want, then how is it something that 'worked' for you? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Uh. Well it seemed to deaden the pain - for a time. But it always brought shame and guilt and ultimately left me without what I really ached for and that was a satisfying relationship with my wife. I did this for years SD. I have been the weakest person and I suspect there are millions of men just like me. They are waiting for their wives to come on to them and they never do. Consequently I was left feeling absolutely worthless! That she wanted all of me EXCEPT that! Of course she would say that is not true but actions do speak even though her heart may not be feeling that way. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> ...sometimes when my husband 'leaves things alone' for too long I begin to mistakenly feel as though he doesn't want me. A little 'catch 22' there. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I read (I think Harley) that women who have sex often want it more and men who have sex more often want it less. How about that for a catch-22? I know when I have sex I don't feel nearly the pain of lust that I do when I have failed or been rejected. When I have been rejected and things haven't been working out between us at home, those women I see at Target and other places seem just so much more attractive. This is the reminder I guess, huh? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> And how do you communicate that? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Usually I feel like a boob when it comes to initiating sex with my wife. What do I do? What do I say? It's crazy.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Well it seemed to deaden the pain - for a time. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Are there any other things you've found that deaden the pain? ie: non-physical intimacy Is your wife open to other forms of intimacy? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I read (I think Harley) that women who have sex often want it more and men who have sex more often want it less. How about that for a catch-22? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sigh...if only we could find that middle ground. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Usually I feel like a boob when it comes to initiating sex with my wife. What do I do? What do I say? It's crazy. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I know for me subtle is best. If my husband comes at me all hands and mouth my initial response is to push him away - whether I was in the mood or not. But when he's sensitive and gentle, and gives me time to have my mood catch up to his...WITHOUT pushing I can be much more responsive. (provided my head doesn't get in the way first.)

You know? I can sense a real soft spot you have for him. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

So it shows huh? [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Some days I think I might be an idiot...volunteering to go through so much for something I'm not sure of...But I do still love him.

I have a question? How old are your kids? Do you think your husband feels in competition with them for your time?

The kids are 1 & 3. Both Boys.I know that he has certainly felt that way in the past - our first was a colicy baby, and certainly took his fair share of my time and energy. Joe wasn't around much when our second was born - he was away working up north...so I'm pretty sure it wasn't much of an issue then.As for now, I'm honestly not sure. I haven't asked. Given that the kids are a little older, and have fairly regular schedules, we do have time for eachother, but out of necessity when the kids are up and busy we each have to take a back seat in favor of their needs. It hasn't been a problem for me terribly often, but I'll have to check with my husband to see where he's at.

Your temperament must be able to juggle everything. You said you were a D so I can understand that.I know that for YEARS I had the biggest problem in getting my wife to draw boundaries to not allow the children to dominate OUR time. I remember I would work late a lot and every night I would come home she would be asleep in one of their beds after reading a book to them. This got to be so bad that I finally told her that I wish she could stay up so we could talk when I got home. So, she did quit.I have in the past viewed our children as a hindrance to our sex life and intimacy in general. On top of that she told me the number one thing I could do to love her was to love her children. Ouch! I do love them. They are mine too. But, it was like I had to prove something.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Your temperament must be able to juggle everything. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I'm ok until try to juggle too much and the stress of it hits...at that point I usually crack and have a 'hissy fit' - but I'm getting better at knowing what my limits are, so it doesn't happen as often as it used to. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> every night I would come home she would be asleep in one of their beds after reading a book to them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That sort of thing has never happened often in our house...occassionaly, but not often. We've always tried to make habbits of waiting up for one another if one of us is out or working late. We also try to make a point of going to bed at the same time. The kids are usually in bed by 9...and after that the house is generally quiet, but we don't always spend the time together. Often we'll just sit in front of the TV, and hardly visit at all - other times we'll sit and talk for hours...especially now. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I have in the past viewed our children as a hindrance to our sex life and intimacy in general. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This has been an issue for us too...I can't tell you how many times the kids have interrupted or totally prevented intimate encounters. We've never stopped ourselves from being affectionate in front of them though...we even have 'family cuddles' where the 4 of us sit together in a heap on the sofa watching a movie for the kids. They seem to love it, and it gives my husband and I a chance to share a little affection too. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> On top of that she told me the number one thing I could do to love her was to love her children. Ouch! I do love them. They are mine too. But, it was like I had to prove something. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That sounds like avoidance - almost as if she was asking you to direct your attention towards them INSTEAD of her. Have you talked much about that one?

Talk for hours? See there you do love him!Yes we have talked about that one. Has a lot to do with her feeling unwanted as a child and feeling like a farm-hand. Mother had a nervous breakdown that lasted for 9 years while she was a little kid until she was 16. So, I think there was a lot of past haunts involved there.What she doesn't understand is why I feel anger toward the kids when they get in our way. Yes that is a normal thing. But sometimes! I handle it much better than I used to and so does she. She and I both are stern about having our door closed so we can just talk at times.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Talk for hours? See there you do love him! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You're right...I do, but it takes so much more to make a relationship WORK...I still wonder if we have what it takes. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Has a lot to do with her feeling unwanted as a child and feeling like a farm-hand. Mother had a nervous breakdown that lasted for 9 years while she was a little kid until she was 16. So, I think there was a lot of past haunts involved there. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Are you saying that she overcompensates? What have you done as a couple to try and resolve those feelings? Has she forgiven her mother? How many other children were in her family? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> What she doesn't understand is why I feel anger toward the kids when they get in our way. Yes that is a normal thing. But sometimes! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>As a mother, I'd have to say that I'd have trouble understanding that kind of anger also - we women seem to have infinate patience where our children are concerned. It's easier I think, for us to wait until the kids are out of the house or asleep, to spend one on one time with our spouses. The most I feel towards the kids in terms of negative emotion would be frustration when they don't behave the way I'd like them to, or when they just get to be a 'mitt full'.How old are your children?

My children are 8 and 5. Yes she has forgiven her mother and father. She has worked through a LOT of her anger. Not nearly as angry of a person as she used to be.Check this out. Last night we went to church. Sat close together. Enjoyed watching our 5 year old boy sing in church. Went home. Got in bed. She was flirty and kissing me and all. Smiling. Then I noticed she throttled back on her 'interest'. So I figured she just wanted to be close and not have sex. So, I backed off. Then she said, "You REALLY love that night light on don't you?" We have this night light in the wall. 5 watts or so. Tiny thing. But it is enough to keep me from stumbling around in the dark when I get up to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night. Or when I wake up in the morning because I always get up first and it is always dark. So, yes I like the night light.I said, "You have such a narrow allowance for when we can have sex. Only when it is totally dark."She said I did to. And I said, "I don't have to have the lights off.""I guess you would rather have a light on than have me then," she said. To which I replied, "If it has to be that way everytime - Yes."Everytime. It has to be the same way. What gives?BTW - What do you mean when you say you wonder if you have what it takes to make your marriage WORK? What does WORK mean?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Then I noticed she throttled back on her 'interest'. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> So...the nightlight was a 'trigger' causing her to think of something that made her feel uncomfortable about being intimate - What is that something? It sounds to me like she needs to resolve whatever that issue is before she'll be ok to try things with the lights on - or anything different for that matter. The positive thing is that she did initiate...it's a beginning. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I said, "You have such a narrow allowance for when we can have sex. Only when it is totally dark." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That was a bit of a 'Love Buster' don't you think? IMO...if you had said something like 'Sure, I like the nightlight...but I certainly don't need it now' maybe things would have ended on a more positive note.I know it bothers you to have it dark all the time, but it sounds like that's something she is needing right now - could you not make a temporary allowance for that, perhaps with the understanding that it will be a goal to work towards something different in the future? A little less pressure could help to make her feel more open...at least that's the way it works for me.What about a compromise...a candle maybe? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> BTW - What do you mean when you say you wonder if you have what it takes to make your marriage WORK? What does WORK mean? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> For me, a marriage that works is one where both parties feel loved, fulfilled, happy, committed, open, honest and understood. (with of course the understanding that there are good and bad days) Our marriage seems to be severely lacking in most of those areas right now. I realize that is probably very normal under the circumstances, but given the way things have been between us lately, I wonder if we as a couple have the ability to attain that kind of relationship. There are soooo many road blocks - I'm not sure we have the tools to tear them down.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by SoDuped: [/b]That was a bit of a 'Love Buster' don't you think? IMO...if you had said something like 'Sure, I like the nightlight...but I certainly don't need it now' maybe things would have ended on a more positive note.[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sure. Could have. But, EVERY other time this has happened (and there have been several) I have gotten up and unplugged it. So this was not the first time it happened. I guess my thinking is "If she will not make love with ANY light on, then my chances of having sex anywhere but here in the bed at night are pretty nil." This is so boring to me.She did tell me that her counselor and she talked about sexual triggers the other day. That she has them. Remember my story about putting up the wall blocks and she felt defensive because I wanted sex? She talked with him about that and she feels she should keep going to him.Well, I don't know why it has to be the same way every singel time. That's all. Not very exciting.

That's a tough one Dogbert...without knowing your wife I can only say how I can relate to the situation. I empathize with you though. For a man like you, I can see how this would be an agonizing situation.I have a slightly off the wall suggestion...please take it lightly.Would your wife consider wearing a blindfold?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by SoDuped: I empathize with you though. For a man like you, I can see how this would be an agonizing situation. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> What do you mean, "man like you?" I have agonized (very accurate word) over this for 13 years. I FINALLY see movement. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Would your wife consider wearing a blindfold?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> LOL! I wish! That would be cool!

By 'man like you' I mean that you seem to be a strong 'sensing type' as opposed to an 'intuitive'. You express yourself, and connect with your wife, strongly on the sexual level. Because of the scope of emotions you feel and need to express, to be with your wife the same way each time limits the degree of that expression making it less satisfying. Over the course of 10 years that can become a very frustrating thing. All of a sudden, when you finally see progress, it is very possible to find that even more frustrating - since you see a small change the instinctive response is to want the rest to follow more quickly.Just a stab in the dark, but how does that sit with you?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by SoDuped: Just a stab in the dark, but how does that sit with you?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think you could be correct. I feel I am having to keep at bay my anger and hurt over all this.

Hi guysDOGBERT: The candle sounds like a good idea for improvision. OR: maybe you could try to find out why she doesn't like the lights on. Maybe she feels vulnerable, or she doesn't feel beautiful - any number of things.If that's the case, maybe you could gently coax her to leave the nightlight on and you do the initiating. Then with little kisses to various parts of her, you could tell her that she's beautiful to you. For example if you kiss her eyelids, tell her that you love her eyes and the way that they express her feelings. Or you kiss her hands and tell her you like how soft they are. You know, things like that. But you have to mean it or she will know that you're saying it for saying sake. Women sense these things.It's just an idea. Let us know if you try it and if it works.ALL THE BEST [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

------------------ CPL

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Caribgirl: she doesn't feel beautiful - any number of things.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> She is beautiful. That can't be it.

I don't mean she ISN'T beautiful. Maybe she just doesn't FEEL that way. I know people who are absolutely gorgeous or they are a wizard at what they do, but they just don't perceive themselves that way. If that's not it, then I suggest that you dig gently, but deeply to find out what it is.Maybe one day she'll open up and tell you what it is. I do hope you find out and will be able to help her.Good luck [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

------------------ CPL

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dogbert: I think you could be correct. I feel I am having to keep at bay my anger and hurt over all this. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>If your wife is aware of your anger and hurt it's possible that she's feeling guarded as a result which would intensify whatever issue she has about herself. Do you have any idea what it could be?Caribgirl has a good point...She may BE beautiful, but not FEEL beautiful. Or, she may think that you don't see her as beautiful...?For women, it's easy to fall into that kind of self doubt when our confidence or esteem is at a low level - Happens to me all the time.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by SoDuped: If your wife is aware of your anger and hurt it's possible that she's feeling guarded as a result which would intensify whatever issue she has about herself. Do you have any idea what it could be? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This all could be true. All I know about the 'night-light' issue is that she says it is not "romantic" at all. She likes the mere outlines of our bodies. Gee, writing this I feel stupid. I think I reacted more out of the 10 years worth of pain than the actual issue. She told me yesterday that she had made the effort to make me not feel like I had to (my words) extort sex out of her. And then I ruined it with the light issue.She agrees with me that she has several sexual 'triggers' and is going to continue with the counselor to figure 'em out. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>She may BE beautiful, but not FEEL beautiful. Or, she may think that you don't see her as beautiful...? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> How can this be when I tell her how pretty she is, how nice her hair looks, that her eyes are still as beautiful as they were when we met, that she looks pretty or nice in her clothes, etc. I mean, I don't overdo it, but I certainly make sure that I let her know how I feel. And it is not something I have to "remember" to do. I just feel it and tell her. Her body and mine go together so well and we both know how to please each other. But, man it is hard to get there. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>For women, it's easy to fall into that kind of self doubt when our confidence or esteem is at a low level - Happens to me all the time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You have even more reason.Hey, your husband has been responding. That is a pretty good sign. What did you think about my response your "anger" question?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Gee, writing this I feel stupid. I think I reacted more out of the 10 years worth of pain than the actual issue. She told me yesterday that she had made the effort to make me not feel like I had to (my words) extort sex out of her. And then I ruined it with the light issue. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hey...you figured it out - FAR from stupid in my books. So...are you going to talk to her about it? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> How can this be when I tell her how pretty she is, how nice her hair looks, that her eyes are still as beautiful as they were when we met, that she looks pretty or nice in her clothes, etc. I mean, I don't overdo it, but I certainly make sure that I let her know how I feel. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The fact that you say it doesn't mean she believes it. If I'm feeling good about myself and my husband gives me one of the above compliments, I can say thank you...look in the mirror and say to myself...'He's right...I DO look good.' But...If I'm feeling low I end up looking in the mirror and thinking...'Where is he getting that...my eyes are all puffy and tired looking.'...or 'I hate this outfit...he must be just saying that.' Do you see my point? It may not be the case with your wife...but it is a possibility. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Hey, your husband has been responding. That is a pretty good sign. What did you think about my response your "anger" question? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You're right...it's a great sign! Thank you so much for taking the time to talk with him. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> What did you think about my response your "anger" question? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>To tell you the truth I was surprised to hear it...I'm not sure why...but I was. I posted some more questions for you in that thread...I hope you don't mind.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by SoDuped: To tell you the truth I was surprised to hear it...I'm not sure why...but I was.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This curious to me. I wonder why you were?

I finally figured out my vision for the kind of sex life I want with my wife. I saw it while watching Home Improvement. Tim was supposed to get a vasectomy. He didn't want one of course. But had one because a friend had one, told him it was no big deal. His friend commented "Anytime, any place" describing the kind of freedom it will give their sex life.Well, Tim had the procedure and Jill caught him sneaking up on her in the kitchen. She said, "I am not sure this was such a good idea."Tim said, "Anytime, anywhere."They embraced and kissed in the kitchen and Jill said, "What about the kitchen counter?" They decided to got the bedroom - a place they haven't done it lately. But, that whole scenario displayed what I want - a freedom with sex. That is is normal and fun and enjoyed. I think this vision of what I want conflicts greatly with the "no lights" sex we seem to only be able to have. I mean, there is no hint of sex until we are in bed and the lights are off. It would be nice if we acted like sex could be in our future while we are doing other things.Sorry for the vent.

Hello there...The reason why your response to my anger question surprised me was probably because I made the assumption that your relationship wasn't that volitile. I guess it threw me a little to learn that it was - you just seem so level, so I suppose I figured your wife was as well. [censored] U ME ... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Interesting the analogy you made to with the Home Inprovement episode... Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could all have that kind of sexual freedom in our relationships? Was there ever a time when you and your wife were that open? I remember when my husband and I were dating...Bedroom? What Bedroom??? I also remember the look on his face when I asked him to consider a vascetomy...Too bad I didn't think of the 'anytime, anywhere' selling point then! - Maybe he would have gone.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by SoDuped: I made the assumption that your relationship wasn't that volitile. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, that part is mostly history. I have always maintained my level head (for the most part) because someone had to. I have prayed a lot and she has finally gotten some help with her issues. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Was there ever a time when you and your wife were that open? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Before kids. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I remember when my husband and I were dating...Bedroom? What Bedroom??? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Is there another room? [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I also remember the look on his face when I asked him to consider a vascetomy... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hey, it was no big thing. I love the freedom.

Good Morning...I remember reading another post (I can't remember if it was on this board, or another I've been spending time at) written by a woman who was having difficulty being intimate with her husband. The couple had children, and the issue was that the husband wanted to have more 'fun' sexually, and she felt that as a mother it was somehow unacceptable for her to behave that way, so she wouldn't allow herself. She believed that her husband had a certain immage of her, and respect for her as a parent. She was afraid that becoming more adventureous in a sexual way would tarnish that immage, and he would lose respect for her. She later admitted that it was HER issue, and she had projected the problem on to her husband. Once she learned that he wouldn't think less of her as a woman or a mother she began to feel more open. I know she still struggles with the whole thing, but as far as I understand it's getting better. Have you and your wife ever discussed how she see's herself as a wife and mother, and how that affects her sexuality?

Yes. I bought her a book called Intimate Issues written by Linda Dillow. In it, she and the co-author talk in depth about how a Christian woman deals with her faith, motherhood and her sexuality. My wife found it intriguing and read it about 5 months ago. But we never really discussed it very much.That is an interesting twist though about the 'loss of respect' thing. I haven't thought about that.[This message has been edited by Dogbert (edited March 26, 2001).]

Have you read it as well? My therapist suggests that when one or the other of us is reading a book that has to do with working on our relationship that we read it together. That way we're always understanding where the other is at, and where the new ideas are coming from. It also gives us new things to discuss when we're talking about how we're doing. Would she be open to that sort of thing, or do you think she'd see it as an invasion of her 'space'?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by SoDuped: Have you read it as well? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I skimmed through it before I brought it home. But, she didn't want me to read it because she was afraid I would remember things in it and 'remember' when she was not 'doing' the things in it. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Would she be open to that sort of thing, or do you think she'd see it as an invasion of her 'space'?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hmm... I don't know.I think I am just going to lay off of her. That seems to be the best thing. Like I said, I have tried this and that and I am to the point where I have to lean on God and not to my own understanding.

Sorry to keep coming at you with all the suggestions...guess I got my Ms. Fix It Cap on a little too tight Hmmm?

SD (Anna) - No prob. I don't mind suggestions. Something may shake loose - you never know.I am a 'fix-it' person too and don't usually rest until it is fixed. I think that is why I have been in this mode for nearly 13 years. Well, maybe 10 years.So you are in computers, too?

You hit a key point in saying You don't know how you'll get through it, or if you will. My husband is upset with me now because he says I am like hot and cold running water. The truth, he's right. Can I stop it, No. Why, beats me, I think it's the afterwash of his A. I think about the things he did with and for her and I am so angry and bitter. I think about his insatiable need to get his needs met at the expense of mine and I truly at times hate him. It's no wonder he feels hot and cold. Love and hate, they are emotions running rampant in my heart. It's been 8 weeks, he moved out. I know a lot of people stay in the same home and try to work things out. I can't. Why, I don't know, I just know how good he is at manipulating me and I am terrified of "business as usual" He contends it worked for us before why not leave things as is. Therein lies the problem. What was good for him was not for me. Confused, god that is such a small simple word for the aftermath of an A.

Dogbert, The life of a fix-it person...fun and games isn't it?As far as the computer thing...yes, that is how I spend most of my time these days. Is that what you do as well?

K9... I know what you mean...confusion doesn't even begin to express the multiple waves of emotion that try to conflict all at the same time...it's maddening!!! Some days I'm afraid to get out of bed just knowing I'm going to have to face it all for another 18 hours. At least my husband is willing to talk about it - but it isn't easy for him...the more I talk, the more emotions I get caught up in. He's still trying to figure out how to handle it. For that matter - so am I. Talk about a long hard road. I feel for you. Do what feels right...and stay strong.

SD - Yes. I am software guy. Been mainly writing Internet software and database applications for the past 4 years. I guess I'll be doing that for a long while. I hope.

Cool! I'm building a database as we speak! (CMMS) It's a little dry right now, but once all the info is in and I can start programming the set-up it should be more interesting. Perfect career choice for us type D's that like to wear the fix it caps hmm? [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

What is CMMS?I work in Oracle, Visual Basic and Active Server Pages. I also can do SQL Server. Yes, perfect for a "D".How are you doing this morning?

Good Morning Dogbert! I'm doing pretty well today, how about you?Things between Joe and I seem to be a little better the last couple of days. We had a talk the night before last about this anger I've been feeling. All I did was explain how I'm feeling to him - but somehow putting it out there instead of holding it in has helped me to feel a little more level. I'm not sure if he understands the depth of it all, but at least he understands more than he did before...he's even asking for suggestions on how to handle things when I'm overwhelmed so that it doesn't get worse. It feels reassuring to see him making such an effort - it's a tangable that shows how much it means to him to get our marriage back on track. I just wish I could stop waiting for the other shoe to drop.

SD - I thought I would bid you adieu before I sign off. I have been on this forum for a long time. I also get easily addicted to this forum.I have signed off in the past only to return and see what's going on and I can't help myself. I have truly enjoyed our discussions and hope I have been able to be a friend for a time that was helpful. Tell your husband that I am praying for you both. I think truly you will be okay in your marriage. I am praying for that.But because I am a 'fixer' this analyzing things has its downside. And I think that I could go on ad nauseum about this and that purposing this or that solution. I should only be relying on the Lord. And that is what I shall do.If you ever decide to put your email address out on the Email Exchange I may drop you guys a line to see how you are doing. In the meantime - you are doing fine and you are a strong person who is going to make it.In Christ. Alan

Alan, Thank you for being the friend that you have been these past weeks. Thank you also for your encouragement and wisdom. You found me when I was at such a low, and now through talking with you I have found strength, confidence and faith. The chance to talk with you has been a blessing, and I look forward to the future when (God willing) we can do it again. I will post my e-mail on the exchange, please feel free to drop a line whenever you'd like. I am also grateful that you will keep Joe and I in your prayers - We shall do the same for you and your wife.Strength, faith, and happiness to you. Much gratitude, Anna