So is your husband actively involved in trying to restore your relationship? You said that you were going to print that off and read for him so he must be.

Well it is a long story and I visit this forum from time to time and have "met" a few people here in the past. I originally came to this forum out of curiosity and realized I had some experiences that could be helpful.<P>You don't make me uncomfortable calling it an affair. I guess it was and I don't like it. But upon further investigation, like I said, it could be considered an affair of my mind and emotions.<P>Please don't let me offend you. I can do that but I am not trying to with you. Like I said before I felt the Lord prompting me to respond to you and look forward to anything else I can do.

Yes, he is trying very hard and says he's willing to do whatever it takes to get through this.<BR>At this point I think I'm the one slowing the process.<BR>I'm having a great deal of difficulty dealing with how I feel about the affair.<BR>I'm also having trouble getting 'close' to him. <BR>He is very much wanting to be intimate...to SHOW me how he feels about me - I on the other hand have images, thoughts and questions in my mind that make being that close to him difficult.<BR>We're both in counseling, but haven't touched on these issues yet.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoDuped:<BR><B>I'm also having trouble getting 'close' to him. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This is totally understandable and you have the right to be hurt and angry because he violated your trust and relationship. Somehow you have to grieve over the fact you lost something. I don't know how you will do this unless you get it out in the open. But, at some point, if you want the marriage to transcend what it is today or what it used to be yesterday into something you both desire, you will have to come to terms with forgiveness. What most people do (and I have done) is hold on to the hurt and anger for dear life because they mistakenly believe that is their protection against further hurt. It is too risky to let go of it and forgive. <P>It is a process isn't it? You feel that you want assurances from your husband that this will never happen again before you can trust him. You are acting no different than anyone else would in the same situation.<P>He has responsibility as well to uphold his end of the bargain in order to rebuild trust. He seems to be feeling incredible guilt and shame over his actions by 'over-doing' (or repaying his debt) the affection. I know that at least God can forgive us for all our sins without expecting us to promise to not sin again. But, God is God and we are not. God just upholds a high standard for all of us and He asks us to trust Him.<P><BR>

You really hit the nail on the head with that one.<BR>True forgiveness is a difficult thing - I AM afraid to do it.<BR>I'm afraid that if I do, he'll stop putting so much effort into rebuilding, and I'm afraid of opening myself up to more hurt.<BR>My husband is an alcoholic (sober 16 years through AA), and one of the 'slogans' he lives by is 'Let Go, Let God'.<BR>I have so much trouble with that idea.<BR>It makes me think of the Footprints poem/story...Do you know it? (Two sets of footprints in the sand...until trouble hits, and then there's only one...)<BR>I believe that you have to be walking in the sand BEFORE God will carry you.<BR>I guess I'm saying that until I start to let it all go, and forgive, I'm not giving God anything to help me with.<BR>Does that make sense?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoDuped:<BR><B>I'm afraid that if I do, he'll stop putting so much effort into rebuilding, <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This is understandable too. We all (humans) do this. We have needs and we demand they be met. Your particular need at this point is to have that trust re-established. And you think you are in control of it. Were you in control of your husband having an affair? No. You admit that your marriage was not what it could have been but he still made his decision.<P>I'll say one more thing. You said you blame him for not talking to you. I know that I could not (at least I thought) tell my wife my innermost secrets because I was afraid she would reject me. She has such a presence about her that seems in control and quite honestly I have her up on a pedestal because she seems to have no real "bad" sins. So, this fear of her reaction kept me from talking to her until I got over this emotional affair of mine.<P>I have a need for my wife to have sex more with me, initiate more, etc. But, so far she has not really become the woman in my head. So, I have to go back to God and say, "Hey I have these needs and all. What do I do?" I know He wants to meet my needs (sexual and otherwise) but until He gets through working in my wife's life what am I supposed to do?<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR> 'Let Go, Let God'.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That has truth but to me has always sounded trite. I know it works for millions and works for your husband but for me - Ugh! Life is tough!<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>It makes me think of the Footprints poem/story...Do you know it? <BR>I believe that you have to be walking in the sand BEFORE God will carry you.<BR>I guess I'm saying that until I start to let it all go, and forgive, I'm not giving God anything to help me with.<BR>Does that make sense?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>There is so much theology tied up in what you have said here I don't know where to begin. I will try. Yes, I know the poem. But, when you said, "I'm not giving God anything to help me with," I noted a philosophy in that statement that a lot of people believe. And that is, "God helps those who help themselves." That statement cannot be found anywhere in scripture. God does NOT want to help those who CAN help themselves. He wants to help the ones who can't which happens to be all of us isn't it? I know for me I have to tell Him the truth that I have no ability to handle the pressures and temptations I face and that I don't even have the ability to create and then maintain certain spiritual disciplines like daily Bible reading or prayer life in order to combat my nature inclinations to sin.<P>I love 1 Peter 5:8 "Be careful! Watch out for attacks from the Devil, YOUR GREAT ENEMY. He prowls around like a roaring lion looking for some victim to devour." Then compare that with the Psalms which tells us we are "like SHEEP who have gone astray." Sounds like a sitting duck if you ask me. So, we are stupid sheep! I will admit it. I am a stupid, powerless and defenseless sheep. I NEED a shepherd in Jesus to be my defender and protector against this lion (Satan).<P>Whew!<P>

It's all about control isn't it?<P>I have been in control of my life until now.<P>I couldn't control my husbands affair.<BR>I can't control my feelings now.<BR>I have no control over my life.<P>Maybe I'm feeling so lost that on some level I'm trying to 'control' the recovery.<BR>Perhaps that is part of my reluctance to forgive?<P>Perhaps that's even why the 'God helps those who helps themselves' philosophy - (I know I touched on a big one there...) Maybe feeling like I'm taking action helps me to feel more in control? <BR>I don't discount how powerful the Lord is, or how he guides our lives in ways we'll never understand - I do accept that.<BR>I guess that I need to feel that I have a hand in it somehow. (gosh that sounds arrogant!)<BR>What you said about not wanting to tell your wife about your innermost secrets for fear of rejection really hit me.<BR>I'm now wondering if this was an issue with my husband.<BR>I have asked him why he didn't come to me...he shrugs and says he isn't sure, he just felt like he couldn't - the wall between us was too big.<P>So there we were acting like two frightened little sheep waiting for the roaring lion to attack - so he sent us Betty.<P>Perhaps this affair wasn't just a wake-up call for our marriage - maybe it was Gods way of letting us know that we were wondering too far from the flock?<P>Whew is right!<BR>

SD -<P>It doesn't sound arrogant to me, but in the light of scriptures it does. And I have said the same things in my trying to control my wife and how she responds to me sexually. I have struggled and tried to control it for years and I feel God is asking me to let it go. And to be honest talking with you has encouraged me to keep on giving it to God and taking it out of my hands because I don't know what He wants to do with her or me. Do I like it? NO W A Y! But I think He is calling me to that just He is calling you. <P>However, that doesn't mean you 'let him off the hook.' He has hurt you and he should never forget it. But, until He gets help for himself to understand what makes him 'tick' he may be doomed for failure in other ways. Maybe even in the same way. You cannot be his reason for not having an affair. That isn't fair and that isn't love freely given. That is selfish love that only loves IF loved. (Lot of love there, huh?)<P>I have to lean on God all of the way because I am defenseless like a sheep and I need God to step in and handle what I cannot. And that is hard to do.<P>I think you are a pretty neat lady!

Thanks for the compliment Dogbert...I've enjoyed talking to you too.<P>Don't worry, I don't plan on letting my husband off the hook, not yet - there's too much work to be done. If he gets the feeling that 'all is well' again I'm afraid that he'll lose the motivation he has now, and we'll never know what makes him tick.<BR>I think it's time for him to rediscover himself...he needs to understand his motivations - only then can he answer why he did what he did.<BR>Once we know that, then we can start to find out what needs to be changed in our relationship so that this can never EVER happen again. I will not settle for selfish love, and neither should he.<BR>If only we could know a little of what Gods plan is...<BR>There's that control issue again - If I know where I'm going, it's much easier to follow.<BR>Sigh - I suppose I have my own issues to resolve hmmm?<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoDuped:<BR><B>Sigh - I suppose I have my own issues to resolve hmmm?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Sigh - We all do. We all do.<P>

SD - <P>Boy was my Sunday School lesson yesterday for the two of us. We were talking about James 1 and the verses that tell us if we lack wisdom we should ask of God who gives to all liberally. Then the other stipulation is that we must believe we will receive wisdom when we ask because if we don't we are unstable in ALL our ways, tossed about like the sea driven by every wind. And that we should not expect we will receive ANYthing from God. Very tough to chew and even tougher to swallow.<P>I remembered today something I used to do that I must do again. And that is everyday to wake up and commit my body (all my members) to the Lord that I might not sin against Him. This sort of harkens back to Romans 12:2 that reads: "And be not fashioned according to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, and ye may prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God"<P>The key here is in your mind and how you program it. <P>Otherwise how are things?

Dogbert,<BR>Nice to hear from you again.<BR>Interesting how timely your Sunday School lesson was...after the weekend I've had it's amazing how much that applies.<BR>Funny/ironic...I've been praying for guidance and strength, but haven't taken the second step in believing that I will receive. There's always been that iota of doubt.<BR>Gosh...I'm beginning to feel ashamed of how weak my faith has become.<P>On another note, I've read your other thread (Theology discussion) and find the topic of that conversation to be playing it's part in my life today.<BR>Lust was the issue this weekend between my husband and I.<BR>It has caused quite a conflict.<BR>He confessed to his use of shall we say 'reading material...?'<BR>Betrayl once again...he had promised to stay away from those books given the circumstances, and was unable to do so.<BR>I'm afraid he's not strong enough to do the things necessary to save our marriage.<BR>Perhaps I should print your other post for him to read?<P>How are things with you?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoDuped:<BR><B>There's always been that iota of doubt.<BR>Gosh<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>For some reason, when I really sit down and ask "God will you please give me your wisdom concerning this situation," I expect to receive and I always do. I especially use this prayer in dealing with my daughter and son. But I have not really thought in terms of my marriage as much. Big mistake huh?<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Betrayl once again...he had promised to stay away from those books given the circumstances, and was unable to do so.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Unfortunately, he hasn't come the place in his life where he can admit to himself and to you he has an addiction (NOTE: for all those more 'open-minded' people who say SOME can look at porn and not be addicted, respond on my other thread on "Theology" and not here). It was only in October that I admitted my addiction to myself and to my wife. Just today I was talking with my counselor about this and he compared it to smoking addiction and that you can never take that first puff. So, I can not even take that first look or I will fall right back in.<P>For you, let me give you a few verses in John 21. You may have read this before. It is Jesus appearing to his disciples after his resurrection. Jesus was on the beach and the disciple were in the boat and were moaning because they hadn't caught any fish. Well Jesus told them to cast on the other side of the boat and they would catch fish. <P>The thing I never paid attention to was that Jesus was on the beach cooking breakfast. He already had fish. But, Peter, who had denied Jesus a few days earlier was the first one to shore after he realized it was Jesus on the shore. <P>What did Jesus ask Peter? Did Jesus say, "Peter, you promised me you would not deny me but you did. Three times! Do you promise to not deny me again?" No he didn't. Jesus asked Peter, "Do you love me?"<P>The point of the story to me is that Jesus knew of Peter's humanness and chose not to do what we do to each other. Jesus showed Peter grace and forgiveness. This verse helps me tremendously when I fall because the shame that pornography brings effects the whole person because it is a sin of the body and the spirit. It is degrading and brings down the spiritual man inside and carries spiritual consequences. It goes way beyond guilt. <P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>I'm afraid he's not strong enough to do the things necessary to save our marriage.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I think his confession is a step toward healing. I would not look at it as a lack of desire to work on the marriage. To beat the addiction of pornography takes quite a bit of effort. And the effort comes in acknowledgement, confession and a surrendering of our body to the Lordship of Christ. Everyday I must get up and commit all of my members to Christ, my mind, eyes, mouth, ears, feet, and hands to him. This is my defense against lust. <P>Pornographic addiction certainly cannot be looked at as an isolated event. If he is a Christian he is probably fighting lust on a daily basis and is tormented by it. <P>At this point it doesn't much matter HOW he got addicted. The point is to become un-addicted. And, remember it is not YOUR fault.<P>Bless you.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Dogbert (edited March 12, 2001).]

Dogbert,<BR>Thank you so much for what you've just written!<P>QUOTE:<BR>"The point of the story to me is that Jesus knew of Peter's humanness and chose not to do what we do to each other. Jesus showed Peter grace and forgiveness. This verse helps me tremendously when I fall because the shame that pornography brings effects the whole person because it is a sin of the body and the spirit. It is degrading and brings down the spiritual man inside and carries spiritual consequences. It goes way beyond guilt."<P>You have no idea how much I was affected by this part of your note - I didn't even attempt to forgive my husband - I reacted BADLY in my anger and hurt. I put him through so much after he confessed to me - I was truely terrible.<P>It would have been so much better for both of us if I had just asked "Do you still love me?" and then said...Ok, then let's work it through.<P>I'm not sure that he would see his need for 'the Books' as an addiction. He is an alcoholic, and I'm sure would not put magazines in the same catagory as booze. He does however understand how I feel about his need for the books -perhaps that is a start.<P>Thank you for pointing out the effort he was making - I overlooked it in my anger and disappointment - I want so badly for him to stop hurting us that my tendancy is to react without seeing the big picture.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoDuped:<BR><B>It would have been so much better for both of us if I had just asked "Do you still love me?" and then said...Ok, then let's work it through.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Again, I am not saying you should allow him to do whatever he wants to do. But maybe the approach could be modified. My wife is the most wonderful person about my addiction. She never has berated me for it and when I fail, I may tell her and she just smiles and says, "Keep trying."<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>I'm not sure that he would see his need for 'the Books' as an addiction. He is an alcoholic, and I'm sure would not put magazines in the same catagory as booze. He does however understand how I feel about his need for the books -perhaps that is a start.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If is not books it would the Internet or TV. <P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>I want so badly for him to stop hurting us that my tendancy is to react without seeing the big picture.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I know. You just want him to quit and you are afraid of another affair.<P>

SD, <P>How about an update.

Good Morning,<BR>Sorry for taking so long to get back to you - the children have been sick and I took the last 2 days off work to stay home with them. <BR>The computer at home is currently 'a work in progress'...(I've reformatted but haven't reloaded) so work is the only place where I have internet access.<P>Thanks for your last couple of replies...your wife must be an incredibly strong woman. For me it would be difficult to smile and say 'keep trying'. I'm sure it would make it easier for my husband to let me know when he was losing his resolve, but it would be hard to hold my tongue.<P>Your right, I AM afraid of another affair, and I'm afraid that his want of the books brings him that much closer to the possibility. Especially when it's still so easy for him to break his promises.<P>Perhaps when he is able to show me that he's as committed to our marriage as he says he is it will be easier to be encouraging.<P>Time, as always, will tell.

SD -<P>T1 access at work is the thing!<P>Well, I understand that most women would not have such a reaction as does my wife. But she and I talked about it even last night and I told her it was strange. She just said, "Well, at least it is not an affair." So, she understands that I lust and have trouble with it so very often.<P>Now, my natural mind wants her to become sexually something that she may not (and may never) want to become. So I am left with having to rely on God to sustain me during my temptations which are great and happen everyday. I wish that every woman could experience what it is like to walk through a day with us and feel what we do. It is sheer torture.

I have often wished for the opportunity to live in my husbands skin for a day. The chance to experience and understand things the way he does would be worth so much to me. <BR>If you don't mind my asking...<BR>What kind of woman is it that your mind would wish your wife to be?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoDuped:<BR><B>What kind of woman is it that your mind would wish your wife to be?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I think that one reason lust is a more difficult proposition for me (and probably for every man alive for all I know) is when I see an attractive woman that I also think is sexy, it reminds me of what I don't have. When I see women dressing sexy it makes me feel I am missing out on something because I don't have that. <P>Faith Hill has a song The Way You Love Me. There is a line that goes:<BR>"It's not right,<BR>It's not fair,<BR>What you're missing<BR>Over there."<P>What is it that I want? <P>Well, if I could change my wife I would get her to initiate sex. To make it obvious. To start kissing me in the kitchen or anywhere and lead to the bedroom. I want to feel wanted sexually. What could she do to make me feel wanted sexually? Well it would be nice if we could have sex at other times besides nighttime after the kids are in bed. And the lights are off. But when we do it is super fantastic sex. But, it just seems the same.<P>Also, I would like her to surprise me and lead me into it rather than me trying to or waiting to see if "tonight's the night." Too much guessing. I hate that and when she doesn't initiate I feel very rejected even though she doesn't mean to. She just doesn't feel the need for it like me and doesn't think about it. But, this is somewhat characteristic of her nature. <P>Makin' any sense here?<P>So, since she is the way she is. And our discussions have not really changed her that much I have no choice but to rely on the Lord which is tough. See, I want my wife to be some sexual goddess (I guess) which is pretty unrealistic when I really think about it. And my brain wants her to be this way to ward me off of the temptations I feel. Now I could point to 1 Corinthians 7:5 that states husbands and wives should not withhold from each other in order to protect against temptations. But, that is not always practical either. Sickness, schedules and other things get in the way apart from just sex drive differences.<P>So her temperament is what it is and I have to try and love her the way Christ loved the church and gave his life for her. And since God hasn't chosen to really work in her life that way (yet - I hope) I believe I should rest on God's provision even though it seems to be the most foreign thing to me.<P>Do I sound crazy yet?