I found a new email dialog between WW and OM this morning. She seems torn between breaking off the A and keeping the friendship. His reply this morning to her message sent on Monday (my birthday!) was clearly indicating a desire to continue the affair.<p>I am planning to cancel a conference trip (I leave tomorrow morning!). My ICs are offering me mixed advice. The one at work says to send an email to both of them and ask WW not to come home from her job out of town tonight (I wrote the email and got corrections a couple of times from IC at work). The private IC I saw yesterday for the first time says no, to essentially keep my feelings all bottled up (not his words, sorry!) and try to continue to work on the relationship because that's what I told him I want to do, and that's what my WW tells *me* she wants to do. I've been about to explode for almost 2 months now, so I really don't think I can keep my mouth shut even tonight when she gets home. A coworker I've been talking to about this has offered me the chance to stay at her place (no intimate interest there at all), and I may take her up on that. I may call WW and tell her I found the email and say that if she's willing to talk and work on our relationship, that I'll come home as well, but that I'd be willing to stay away until she goes back to the field next Tuesday or so. I plan to call my D and tell her about the A. I can't keep this bottled up anymore, and she already was told by WW that our marriage is in trouble and she's "made a couple of very bad decisions". Only new thing is that D will know what the bad decision was, and that the A is not really over and there's no way our marriage can be rebuilt until it is. Maybe she can put pressure on WW to stop??<p>I need advice, and I need it NOW!

2long,<p>Don't do anything drastic feeling as you do. Personally, I don't think burying this is going to do you good. However, you need to formulate a plan to talk with her without LB's. This is hard to do.<p>I think you should tell her what you found and then ask her what you should do. Put it in her lap. If she says "I don't know". I'll bet you have heard that before. Then tell her you can stay and talk or you can leave and return once she has left.<p>I don't think staying with a female is a good idea at all, right now. You are tooo vulnerable and your W is very likely to use it against you when she finds out. Jealousy is not going to work since she is probably looking for any excuse to justify her behavior. Find someplace else to move.<p>I guess if it were me I would have already packed my things so if her decision is not to talk or work, then you are ready. Probably not a good idea though. I know you want to explode and really tell her off. I know you realize this is a bad idea.<p>One thing I think you need to consider since you are getting conflicting information from counselors. If you don't talk the marriage cannot be rebuilt. If you explode it may ruin the chances of rebuilding. What you have to do is sit down and decide what information she needs from you that will help her decision making. Tell this information. I think she knows you are hurt.<p>Talk with her and then deal with what she says. She won't be the first WS to backslide. It has happened many times before around here. Give her a chance, but also don't expect an immediate coherent answer. You are looking at a discussion that should take an hour or more.<p>As for telling your D, don't. Not right now. Wait until you cool off a bit. She cannot be in the middle of it no matter how much she might support you. It won't help the marriage, it won't help her, it won't help your W, and it won't help you although it will comfort you. So tell her when you are calm, and then do it in a away that it leaves the door open for your W.<p>Sorry I couldn't offer an really good advice. You are just getting the seat of the pants, off the top opinion.<p>Good Luck and God Bless,<p>JL

Just L:<p>I was actually on the phone with my daughter when I saw your post come through. She took the news much better than I thought, and then we talked at length about what it all means. I emphasized that no matter what her mother has "done", she's not to be thought of as a villian, nor me as the injured party, particularly since she's clearly in a thick fog right now and can't see her way out of it. I also stressed to her that I love her mother very much, and take 50% of the responsibility for our relationship becoming strained over the years. But I do recognize now that it hasn't been as bad as my W paints it, because she subconciously does need to justify her choice to have the A rather than avoid it 11 years ago, and then to keep it from me and her family all this time. <p>I am expecting a call from my IC in about 20 minutes, so I will wait until I've talked to him before I do anything rash, certainly. But I am not one that can keep something like this bottled up, so even if I don't say anything to her about it, she'll know that something is very wrong. When she pries it out of me, she'll likely be very angry all over again about me "snooping." One thought I've had is to print out the email and put a note saying "we need to talk" and packing up some clothes and staying at our house (without electricity due to the fire in October). I could stay with her mother in our guest house, but then I'd have to explain it all to her as well either way. The idea would be to give her the opportunity to calm down when she gets home and decide on her own whether she wants me to come back and talk to her about it, or whether she things one of us should stay away for a while. <p>I've been working pretty hard on our relationship for 2 months now, with little effort in return from her (other than to tell me to "take it one day at a time" and not smother her), and I don't know if I can keep it up without a commitment from her to contribute as much effort on her part. She hasn't seen OM in person since at least October, so if she can begin the process of breaking off contact and starting to heal from the withdrawal, it just feels to me that now's as good a time as any.<p>UPdate: She just called me on her way home from up north, and could even tell from my voice that something was very wrong. I told her honestly what was on my mind, and she initiallly agreed that we should talk, then got angry about my snooping and says she's not coming home now. I called my daughter, and while I was talking to her she called, so I got off the phone. I am now waiting for my IC to call in the next few minutes.<p>But the defacation has already hit the ventilation, I'm afraid.<p>2sad

2long,<p>Not necessarily. She will be hot, she will be mad, she will blame you for snooping, but she cannot deny that what she has been doing.<p>It may take a day or so for it to cool down. THat is way you don't do or say anything in anger or haste. You can express that you are angry, hurt, etc. But don't yell, and don't do anything rash.<p>Time for cooler heads to prevail. If she is angry and wants to yell, let her. It is like letting air out of the balloon. When it is out, you can make your points calmly.<p>I understand you cannot hold it in, but the idea is to let it out gently not a big explosion that takes everything with it. Sort of the difference between a rocket and a bomb. Both have similar amounts of energy, but one lifts things the other just turns things into small pieces. See what I mean? Hope so.<p>Good luck and God Bless,<p>JL

2long,<p>There were a few other things I wanted to say. One is that in the case of an 11 year affair, you can expect this is going to take a long time to work out. Second, whatever you did 11 years ago, it still works out that you had no chance from that time forward because of her A. She was using the OM to meet needs and probably wouldn't let you do that.<p>There is a lot that needs to be done, but mostly it will take time. <p>One final question: How did you D handle the information you gave her? What did she have to say?<p>Must go.<p>Good luck and God Bless,<p>JL

Just L:<p>Well, I had a good talk with my IC after I posted that last message. He listened to my still very fresh memory of the conversation, and pointed out that I did a number of things right, and that I probably had to be honest with her about my concerns under the circumstances. He pointed out that it was good that I didn't "throw her out" - when she said she wasn't coming home, I said she should, but if she doesn't want to see me for now I would be willing to stay elsewhere (by the way, my coworker laughed about your concerns about her - she's almost 60 and as she described herself, very much off the market for a very long time! My W also knows her very well, and would not likely suspect anything would go on. But I do appreciate your concern). <p>So it seems I did okay with the info I had. My W may honestly believe that her email to OM was simple honesty, but she clearly gave him indicators that she might be willing to give up her family if he wanted her to be his "companion", and she told him enough about my state of mind over the past 2 months that I'm convinced that she told him about D-day very soon after D-day, and she's been lying to me about that since. She claimed not to even know what was in the email, until I pointed out that most of what I saw in his reply was what she had sent in the original message. She obviously hasn't seen his reply yet, because she hasn't had her computer plugged in since last night. When she does, I can't imagine any permutation of twisted logic that won't enable her to see how obvious that she sent signals that the A can or will continue and that he expects it to continue, maybe even escalate. <p>The IC urged me not to "demand" a no-contact letter from her at this point. But I think it's clear that she knows I can't trust her anymore, and that I will require verification that she can be trusted. I will let her decide what to do about the relationship and not require a no-contact letter YET, but she very, very definitely needs to be told in no uncertain terms that, as far as my D and I are concerned, she needs to decide NOW whether she wants her family or some fantasy "friendship" with OM. As Dr. Harley says in HNHN, I "won't put up with it for another minute!"<p>Again, I love her very much, and want to rebuild more than anything else in the world right now. But I WON'T be a doormat for anybody!<p>hoping,

Another update: Well, it's Saturday morning, and my W just left for destination unknown about a half hour ago. I don't know if she'll be back. Last night, I went over to her mom's and had a very long talk with her about it and asked what to do. She had been through a H's affair when my W was little (actually saw her father and OW having sex in their own apartment), and so she knows how painful it can be. I decided to come home instead of stay there, though, but I did ask my W if that would be okay. She said yes. We held hands and snuggled some during the night, too, which was nice. But when we talked this morning, she was very angry for me for talking to my D about it without asking her first, or talking to my ICs about her email before talking to her first. She honestly believes she's "breaking off" the relationship with these emails to OM, and still acknowledges that OM is clearly misinterpreting her messages as "permission to continue", but she doesn't care and thinks I need to just let her do it her way. I agreed to try to do that, regardless of how hard it's going to be. But then she asked me what my IC said about my snooping through her email. I had actually asked the IC why I feel the need to do this, and she replied "because you've been hurt by what she's done, and you need closure in order to work on your relationship". Since the OM is still in the picture, even if they aren't getting together, I can't focus on my problems without being constantly reminded that he doesn't know it's time to STOP. Period. I probably mistakenly said to W that she tells me she's willing to end the relationship, but I wonder how many months or years does it take to say NO MORE. She got dressed and left.<p>I don't think it was appropriate or respectful of her to tell OM that I'm in counselling, but she's concerned she might have to have me committed. I don't think she should tell him ANYTHING about my state of mind or my relationship with her. I don't think she should be telling him that their relationship can't work out beyond friendship in one sentence, and then say in the next that she's offered to give us up and be his companion, but he hasn't taken her up on her offer. No HUMAN would do less than interpret signals like that as an opportunity to continue the A, not just a man. <p>Sorry, but I really am at a complete loss as to what to do at this point.

Another updat of sorts: Last night in talking with MOL about the snooping issue, MOL suggested that it's just like monitoring a child that you know is abusing drugs or something by reading their diary or snooping in their dressers and such. You're trying to help save them from their addiction out of love for them, but it never is received that way by the person being snooped. I hope my W decides to talk to her mom about all this at some point in time. Biggest problem is that she really believes she can control what all's going on, and is her own best councellor. In making that choice, she demeans the people around her that can at least offer her an independent perspective on her situation that doesn't sound so biased as hers or mine. And so she gets no help when she really, really does need it. <p>'nother comment: I don't yell. I stopped yelling being physically violent at all when, as a teenager, I realized that when I kicked the pets, they had no recourse or defense against me. The only way I could keep anger from escalating to violence was to NOT be violent at all. I've never physically punished my kids, and I've never yelled at my W. I've been yelled at an awful lot by her, though, especially lately... ...oh well. I try to just take it and try to encourage calm by remaining calm, so that we can TALK, but because of the recent developments, it's not working for very long at a time.<p>I'm going to go work on something today to get my mind off this. Thanks for your help, JL.<p>still hopeful, but losing ground,

2long,<p>The anger is coming because she knows what she is doing is wrong. Her problems is that this is an 11 year affair, and she is more attached to him than she is to you. You stated she is a scientist, if she is any good she probably has,(shall we say a healthy ego [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] ). This make it even harder for her to admit that other people know more than she does. <p>Particularly someone that she marginalized in order to have the affair. That would be you. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Hang in there 2long. This situation will end. It may not be what you want or it might be. Interestingly, you won't know which ending you want until it happens. Her staying may turn out to be what you don't want. Hence this site.<p>It is for you to heal, take a good look at yourself, and become a better H. It doesn't hurt if it helps you become a better father. The point of this is the obvious. This is a bad situation and has been for 11 years. The ONLY thing you can do is make the best of it, and that means self improvement and gaining knowledge.<p>Someone is going to appreciate what you learn about yourself and how you address this situation. It will definitely be your children, it maybe your W, if not her it will be another very luck lady.<p>Your W is the one with very dark prospects if this continues. She may lose you (you do have that choice), but you can bet the OM will not be her salvation.<p>Hang in there and God Bless,<p>JL

Just L: "The anger is coming because she knows what she is doing is wrong."<p>This is another one of those "obvious" things that I know, intellectually, to be true. It's also true what WAT said in his Quick Start Guide - that it will seem like she was abducted by aliens and had her brains scrambled and put back. That's for sure! She gets very angry at me for snooping, then tells me that she's left her dialog on her laptop so that I can see that what's been sent is nothing to be concerned about. So, is she ASKING me to snoop, or doesn't she? I can't read the stuff she's downloaded to her computer unless she loans me her computer.<p>"Her problems is that this is an 11 year affair, and she is more attached to him than she is to you."<p>She justifies her desire to continue being friends with OM by pointing out that the PA was only for a short time, with a few encounters, before they "ended it" and then only a year and half with few encounters recently, and that she had broken it off last October. I try to point out that this return to a PA is proof that they can't control themselves, and so NO contact is the only possible solution. That gets her angry again.<p> "You stated she is a scientist, if she is any good she probably has,(shall we say a healthy ego ). This make it even harder for her to admit that other people know more than she does."<p>Very definitely.<p>"Particularly someone that she marginalized in order to have the affair. That would be you."<p>I've been getting very little respect for what I'm trying to do at all. Makes it hard to want to continue. <p>"Hang in there 2long. This situation will end. It may not be what you want or it might be."<p>Question, though: Do I continue to snoop, and point out that her emails to him aren't conclusive at all, rather leading him on? Or do I let them do their thing, and hope that someday they'll pull their heads out of their A**es and return to their families and leave each other alone? The former makes me crazy if I do it much, but the latter will be pretty much intolerable.<p>"Interestingly, you won't know which ending you want until it happens. Her staying may turn out to be what you don't want. Hence this site."<p>I've found this site very helpful in that regard. If my W won't really "work" on our relationship, I will at least have worked on myself. I, at least, will be ready if it becomes time to move on.<p>"It is for you to heal, take a good look at yourself, and become a better H. It doesn't hurt if it helps you become a better father."<p>I've been having a good time lately with my kids. Talking a lot with my D about all this, and working with my son on his hobbies (actually started doing this several months ago, before our house fire and well before D-day). I love my kids, and won't give up on them.<p>Ironically, my M was actually getting better in December and January, before D-day, because my W probably really had concluded the A (to her own satisfaction, at least) and had been working to restore things. I didn't know why it was getting better, because I didn't yet know about the A, but I was responding to that pretty well, I think. Trouble is, after D-day my W keeps wishing that I hadn't found the emails... I don't think things would have really improved that much - heck *I* may not have truly improved much - if I hadn't been told the truth about what had been going on. <p>"The point of this is the obvious. This is a bad situation and has been for 11 years. The ONLY thing you can do is make the best of it, and that means self improvement and gaining knowledge."<p>Yep.<p>"Someone is going to appreciate what you learn about yourself and how you address this situation. It will definitely be your children, it maybe your W, if not her it will be another very luck lady."<p>This is my primary goal right now - to be a better person. I would love my W to be a part of my future, but definitely not the way things are now. <p>About the "fog" and irrationality issue: My W and I had the most amazing SF yesterday, in the middle of the afternoon, and held each other for a good hour or two afterwards. I told her I hadn't felt that content in years, and she seemed to agree. Then, this morning, I made a simple compliment about her body, and she rebuked me. I wish she would rebuke the OM when he replies to her emails with a simple one-line remark about fondling her! She never does that I've seen, though.<p>"Your W is the one with very dark prospects if this continues. She may lose you (you do have that choice), but you can bet the OM will not be her salvation."<p>His situation must be so precarious in itself, with a wife and two kids, that he couldn't possibly want his W to find out about this. I very much resent his taking cruel advantage of my W's friendship the way he does. She has said many times recently that they'll have to go back to being just friends, and he either doesn't respond to that part of the message or just says "No!"<p>My W has agreed to meet with my IC this Friday, though, and so I'm going to try to be patient and not LB until then at least. She will be out in the field tomorrow through Friday, so it shouldn't be too hard. My IC had initially asked me to ask her to come in for a separate visit to get her side of the story, as he's my IC, but when the Def. hit the Vent. last Friday, he set up a new appointment and asked her to come then, either jointly or one at a time. We opted for one at a time, and I'd rather her go alone if it means she gets the full hour instead of a half hour. Well see when I talk to IC in a couple days.<p>Thanks again, Just L.

Forgot one thing: Yesterday, my W said "I love you" to me for the 2nd time in 12 years (before the SF). I damn near fell out of my chair, but just got teary eyed instead.

2long,<p>Sounds as if you have the good news/bad news thing happening. The ILY was very important. I hope that you do or did thank her for saying that. She will probably say something "tacky" to you, because it will embarress her, but she will note that you noted it. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>You asked <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Ironically, my M was actually getting better in December and January, before D-day, because my W probably really had concluded the A (to her own satisfaction, at least) and had been working to restore things. I didn't know why it was getting better, because I didn't yet know about the A, but I was responding to that pretty well,I think. Trouble is, after D-day my W keeps wishing that I hadn't found the emails... I don't think things would have really improved that much - heck *I* may not have truly improved much - if I hadn't been told the truth about what had been going on. <hr></blockquote><p>I am sure she does wish you hadn't found them. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] But, then your marriage probably had little chance since it is clear that the two of them cannot stay apart without a much stronger impetus than they had. I am sure her guilt bothers her, I am sure her ego has taken a beating, and I am sure she worries that OM's family will find out.<p>Personally, I think you should continue to snoop, until such time as you are convinced that she is no long talking with him. Having said that, my other suggestion is to go easy on it, because it hurts you as much or more than it hurts her. Nevertheless, you would do the same to your child if you felt they were in danger. Your marriage is in danger. So do it, but do it less than you think you need.<p>I am glad to hear about the SF and the ILY, that is a good step, but probably only a baby step toward recovery.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

JL:<p>Yes, I did thank her for the ILY, and I brought it up again and we talked a little about it last night, in a very feel-good sort of way. I think I actually got one of those good sighs and a hug from her last night when I said ILY to her. Now I'm getting teary-eyed again. <p>I do get a fair bit of tacky responses, but last night they were less insensitive. Small steps, but hopeful ones. <p>Her communication with OM remains a very sensitive issue. She needs her report, and I need the guy out of our lives. We talked a bit more about the email from last Friday, and I was able to make some of my points to her more gently and without an argument. I pointed out that, the morning after our great SF, I had made a simple "compliment" about her body, and she rebuked me, but she never rebuked the OM when he responded to her emails with one-line sexual comments - the kind of things I NEVER say to her (she'd slap the s*** out of me!). She noted that, without getting angry with me. I also explained that I got so upset with the Friday message because it was no different from messages she had been sending/receiving from him during the A, and so she shouldn't be at all surprised that I reacted the way I did. <p>It was good that we were able to talk instead of argue, because she was then able to answer a few more questions about the nature of their relationship than she had before. I was amazed when she told me that, several years ago, he had been hoping that she would divorce and move to somewhere in his vicinity, but that he wouldn't leave his family. So she would be his pet and he could continue to decieve his family. Geez, my wife is such a fiercely independent person that she must be so totally fogged in as to continue a relationship with someone that would treat her like that. Heck, if *I* ever did anything remotely like that, I'd be history so fast there would be a loud thunderclap where I once stood! I can only hope that, over time, she'll realize what a sick individual he really is. I'll do my best not to badger her about it, though, because she won't agree with me. It's not easy to be patient, though.<p>Strange that she doesn't seem to even want OM to find out that I know about the A (in spite of my comments earlier, I no longer think she told him about it, but I'm not 100% sure). She also is very worried that his family will be destroyed if they find out, that maybe this is one of the reasons she's so defensive about him. <p>Our "marriage" is another sensitive issue, particularly with me. My W doesn't "believe in marriage" or words to that effect, and has always hated to be called Mrs. That's okay with me (I had offered to swap last names when we got married), but particularly now that this has come out, I will need a clearer picture of just what our relationship will be in the future. I will gladly commit to an exclusive intimate relationship with her, whatever she wants to call it, but I won't tolerate anything that will implicitly give permission to go elsewhere for ENs if the road gets bumpy down the line. Most of insuring that doesn't happen again is my/our responsibility to remain vigilant from now on, like I am now learning through the MB site. It's too early to tell what she'll be willing to do, but I'm hopeful.<p>My ability to continue to snoop has been changed since this came to a head. My W has a new email account at work, and she told me she emailed him yesterday to tell him to send all correspondence there, not to our home ISP. At least she TOLD me she did that. She also asked, in kind of an annoying tone, if I'd like her to print out any emails from him and bring them home. I said that I would appreciate that. At least she's trying to be honest with me. She still does honestly believe that her email friday was nothing I should be worried about, but I'm glad that she was able to hear my views on that and acknowledge them as important to me. She said she made this change so as to protect his family from finding out if I react like I did last weekend, and I will admit that, if another email like last friday were to come along, I could very well react and blow the whole thing wide open (I told our D and my MIL this time). I can accept the desire to protect his family, but definitely not for his sake. But because I'd hate to find him devorced from his W and coming on more to mine. OTOH, I don't understand why she won't tell him I know, so he'll be less inclined to bother her. She's stronger than most people, but when she's away from home, I can't know what's going on, and having him in the wings doesn't make me feel very good.<p>She's still adamant that she needs to continue communicating with him about the report she's writing, and adamant that they can still be friends. First, I hope that eventually she'll realize what a sick friendship they actually had. Then I'm hoping that counseling will be of help in getting her to realize that the only reasonable thing to do is to break off all contact with him. At least they're not seeing each other in the interim. And I hope that I've made my point about the personal sexual stuff needing to stop. She needs to do far more than simply not respond to those comments, she needs to say NO MORE EVER AGAIN to them. She hasn't done that yet, figuring he'll get tired of it and quit. But because I can't see the emails now unless she shows them to me, I'll have to be careful how I "critique" them when she does. Going to be walking on eggshells for a time, I'm afraid.<p>but still quite hopeful,

2long,<p>Have you asked her why she is so interested in protecting his marriage, but that she has no trouble risking her own. Her continued "friendship" with OM, is definitely a risk to her marriage and her relationship with you. <p>I think she is still in denial, I mean you stated that this is the "second" flareup of the PA,and the EA has probably been constant for 11 years.<p>I hope that she will continue to talk with you, but her actions with the emails is very dubious.<p>You are a good man and doing an amazing job. Hang in there 2long and:<p>God Bless,<p>JL

JL:<p>I haven't asked her exactly why she's so interested in protecting his marriage and family, because my own opinion that he ought to be jolted into reality by doing so doesn't sit well with her yet. Remember, we've only had an initial visit together with a MC at Kaiser, and that was 3 weeks ago. Our next visit is next week. And I've gotten her to agree to see my IC this Friday. And since I've been LB'ing so much in the past couple of weeks, I've decided to hold back for just a few more days until we have both talked to the IC this week and our MC next week. <p>We've been talking a lot in the last couple of days about the positive things that we share together, things that OM couldn't possibly provide her if we were to split up and she go with him. Not to mention she would lose her family in the process. My D told her in no uncertain terms that she wouldn't want to see her again if she were to remain even just friends with OM, but that was when she was really angry with her after just having gotten the news from me. My son doesn't know, and I don't think I'll tell him, other than that we're having problems, UNLESS we split up. Then I'm blowing the whole cover. I won't live a lie for anyone, but I won't allow all the blame to be placed on her either. The focus will be on what was wrong with our M, but I won't pretend that the A didn't play a huge part in ending it, if that's what happens. And his whole family will deserve to know the truth at that point, because otherwise he'll do this again to someone else.<p>As to the emails: This really does worry me, but like I said before, I can't stop them from communicating by going underground if they should decide to continue. My W is honest enough (in spite of all that's happened), that now that I am aware of it, it will be harder to hide if they're continuing to contact or meet each other. And she did at least tell me that she's having him send email to work, and did offer to make copies for me to read. Don't know what else I could have done last Friday, but if I hadn't said anything, she probably would continue to use her laptop and our ISP. But that email was such a serious threat to our future that I felt it had to be dealt with right then. Perhaps I should have been more insistent at that moment that she sever contact completely, but once again she hasn't seen a C yet, so I feel I owe her the opportunity to talk to one. When we go to my IC this Friday, I plan to air my concerns about this to him (when it's my turn individually, we won't be seeing him together, I don't think), and let him know what I expect to happen in the not too distant future about it. I figure that this will be my Plan A/B boundary issue. I just need to decide how much time to give her to make the break and PROVE it to me. I also need to deposit as many LUs into her account in the mean time, so she realizes what she's risking if/when I do ask her to leave. Determining when to go to Plan B if she doesn't break it off is complicated by our move next month into another replacement rental, and our plan to move back into our own house in October, whether it's finished or not. I might be able to give her another month to come around to breaking contact with him, but I can't wait until October. That's just me.<p>Thanks again for your feeback, JL.
(I've been an atheist for about 25 years now, but I still do appreciate the God Blesses!),

Hi 2long,<p>Won't do the God Bless's, but I think you may need them. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Your comment reminded me of a bumper sticker one sees around here, my youngest son is 15. It is one of my favorites just because of the truth of it. It says: "There will always be prayer in school as long as there are tests." <p>It always tickled me. Primarily, because I remember being in HS and worrying so much about tests.<p>In any event, do a good Plan A and give it a few months to sink in, before even considering Plan B. Your W has not really decided she wants this marriage, although she is making many moves that suggest that she does. So make sure Plan A is a habit with you before considering moving to the next step.<p>I think you are wise to not push too much until you two have spent some time with counselors. This is a long term relationship and I suspect your W doubts that she can sever it cleanly, this is apart from this issue of the report. She will need your help and some confidence.<p>I think your conversations with her are very good. Especially, the no LB ones. I think as she become more comfortable talking with you and the LB's dimenish, her approach to things may well change.<p>Hang in there and take care,<p>JL

JL: Thanks again for your feedback. And don't worry about the "God Blesses". I have some very devout Christian friends, and I know the true meaning behind statements like that when they make them, and so I do appreicate them. <p>I agree with you about giving Plan A more time. Not having done this before, and being a very open and vocal person about what I'm feeling, will make being patient about this difficult, but when I think about what *I* may lose by being hasty, and what my W means to me, I realize that I may have to just work all that much harder on doing a good Plan A. My biggest fear is that one of these days I may find out they've gotten together after the fact from someone other than my W, and that would crush me even if nothing happens. The pain of D-day is nothing I want to ever experience again if I don't have to, but I don't want to push her away now "just in case." That would be stupid.<p>Thanks again,

JL:<p>I visited my W yesterday up north where she's working. We saw "Time Machine" together, which was cool, but things were pretty tense between us at first, and we both actually cried through long parts of the movie (not really due to any triggers though). When we got back to the hotel, we talked more about our situation and what we both want. I think it's clearer to me now that she wants our relationship, but is worried that 1) I won't ever forgive her, or 2) I won't change my negative behavior that contributed to her "emotional divorce" and decision to give in to this A. I assured her that I forgive her now, but I certainly won't forget, like I wouldn't want either of us to forget the root causes for us withdrawing from each other 11 years ago and during the A. Don't learn anything by forgetting.<p>We talked a bit more about why she doesn't want OM to find out that I know about A, and why she's told him to use her work email. She is concerned that his family will suffer the hurt that ours is feeling. I told her that I understand her concern, but that she needs to understand that I don't share it, and would rather OM be "punished" by being jolted back into reality the way I was so that he would leave her alone and anyone else from now on (other than his W). I told her I have no respect for him as a person, and that I resent the way he treated her and used her. She said she can understand my viewpoint.<p>As to the new email account at work: She works for a fairly small consulting firm that watches their computers and email traffic pretty closely. I believe that it is possible that what she says, that this should "encourage" her and OM to keep their dialog professional is correct, otherwise someone in the company might see the personal nature of their communication. I still want to see printouts of their conversations, though, but I'll never know for sure if I see them all anyway. I think his section of the report is late because he's holding out on her, plain and simple. This in itself will go a long ways toward convincing her just what kind of "friend" he really has been.<p>I did NOT say anything about severing contact with OM completely, because we were making real progress in me not LBing, and so during the conversations I was able to learn more about what she wants our future to be like. Seems like she really does want us to stay together, but is afraid of the possibility that it might be just like the old times. I assured her, the best I could, that I've learned too much now to ever likely be so distant again. But that is one of the things that maybe only time will prove. Making no LBs was a big positive step for me, considering how hard it is not to harp on that email and its contents.<p>Somewhere during the beginning of the conversation, the subject of her choices came up. Guess she feels that "giving up" (aka suicidal thoughts) or working together on our relationship and keeping our family together are her only choices. She doesn't ever want to have another A, thank God (and I'm an atheist!). I think I surprised her when I said that I don't have suicidal thoughts anymore, so my choices are to rebuild our relationship or move on. Guess she expected me to talk about driving into a bridge piling or something stupid like I used to say. No way! Not me!! Not No More!<p>Anyway, I'm more hopeful than ever right now. But I would still put our chances at 30%, because I WILL clearly indicate that saving our relationship and keeping our family together will only be possible if OM is "served" a decisive "no contact" letter at some point in the not-to-distant future (but not before we've talked to the Cs). I don't care if they will have to see each other at future meetings. I go to conferences myself, and it isn't difficult at all to avoid meeting someone if I don't want to, avoid "hugs" that are inappropriate, and certainly avoid being alone with someone like that, for any reason whatsoever. Eventually, he'll get the message and she'll realize she doesn't need the "friendship." If she thinks that's a harsh requirement from me, I'll say something like "remember, this [censored] robbed me and our kids of a part of you for the past 11 years. I won't tolerate any kind of relationship between the two of you ever again, so long as we're a family."<p>So. My vent, I guess!