I recently figured out the affair with an old high school friend you has been keeping an apartment 5 minutes from our house. He has been married for almost 20 years with 2 teenagers and lives 3000 miles away. He is a commercial airline pilot and conveniently keep an apartment here as a crash pad as he told his wife who was entirely unaware of what was going on -- I have been suspicious for months and finally figued it out. I was in a rage when I confronted her and ask her to leave. She has since moved into the apartment with her painful word (lover). She claims to be in deep love with this person and wants to end it with us. He currently is with his family and who knows what will happen.

I am guilty of not satisfying all of her emotional needs - so she filled them in with someone else. I am guilty of this for many years and until now never fully understood her emotional needs, and since we haven't used the questionnaire don't know completely. She told me that he does and the plan is for him to leave his family for her.

This whole mess has left a lot of people (family and friends)very emotionaly harmed.

I am hoping that since this is exposed their relationship will be terminated by him.

I currently have no communication with her since it is so painful.

I am not sure if I should try and communicate with her and truely tell her what I feel and how I did not fill her needs because I really never did understand them until now. I have so much regret and want this marriage to survive based on all our history of 7 years of marriage and 5 years together before that.

Do I try and communicate now or do I wait -- this has all taken place within the past 10 days?

I don't want to lose her or our marriage - though I have managed to destroy it

dear jbongio- i am so sorry to hear of your pain. i too am a bs.(betrayed spouse.) it seems as if you have been reading and learning, thats good, continue to do that.

first of all-you are not at fault for her affair. you may have contributed to the deterioration of your marriage, but you did not force her to go have an affair. she made that choice all on her own. she had other options available to her. dont blame yourself.

that said, i think you should tell her if you still love her and tell her you want to make your marriage work, but its gonna take alot of work, and time. you have to figure out what your boundries are, and set some ground rules. i know this is alot to absorb.

i'll be on and off today-check back later.

Have you considered some help; additional support?

I found counselling with Steve to be very helpful.

Personal counsel can also be great support.

jbongio --

Of course she says she "loves" him -- standard line right out of The Script. She may actually think she does (one of the terrible things that The Fog causes).

Nikko has it nailed down so very well: this affair isn't about you--you absolutely did not cause her to do this--it's about her poor choices. Make no mistake: she CHOSE this path when other alternatives were available.

We're often all to ready to blame ourselves when we find out ("it must have been my fault, something I did, if only...") but the incontravertable truth is that she's made a horrible mistake when she could have taken another way. You "didn't manage to detroy" anything; she's put this thing in severe jeopardy. Nothing warrants this behavior--nothing!

So, we're left to pick up the pieces and try to get things back on track, seemingly by ourselves since the WS obviously isn't interested in helping to do the job. A 7-year marriage (plus 5 years) isn't a drop in the bucket; in my book, worth spending salvage time and energy on.

Welcome to MB -- we're here to help you all we can. We'll sit with you and listen and sympathize anytime you want. I'm sorry for these last ten days in your life; you wonder how you'll even get your shoes on in the morning...

I think you should wait a bit, but I'm not exactly certain what for. BTW, "The Plan" is always for the OM to leave his family to join the WS; it will be some comfort for you to know--KNOW--that that almost never happens. It's all part of the "talk"--and it's always just talk. Sweet talk. Enough of it and the "right" words to talk your W into rationalizing the A. Hard to believe but absolutely true. Nothing but talk. It'll never happen--trust me on this. He'll never leave his family and she'll be left high and dry. These A's usually die a natural death all on their own, and usually within months. Take heart, know the statistics, love her more (she's in The Fog and can't think straight).

Post again and let us know how you're doing. We're here for you, day and night.

Ammon

dear ammom i am just observing, you have worried me a bit. my wife's om left his family 6 months ago and now lives on his own. my wife asked me to leave her 4 months before d day around the same time. as far as i know he is still away form his family. my wife now wants a trial separation and says in return she will not see om but i know for a fact they have been on the phone recently expressing their love. do you think i would be a fool to try this trial separation on this basis? i dont want the wool pulled over my eyes twice. at the moment i dont feel mentally fit to move out on my own and she doesnt want to move out with kids. i suppose it is good news that she hasn't left to live with him but i think it is only the practical implications that is stopping her - then again i suppoe that gives room for hope as well. any thoughts?

Empc --

Sorry to intrude on JBongio's thread with this response to you, but I trust he won't mind...

I stick by the odds. The statistics say OM's rarely if ever leave their families for the OW. When it's time to put up or shut up, they shut up, put their tail between their legs, and slink off into the night.

You can't stop your W from talking with him/seeing him/being with him -- if that's the way this is going to go, there's not much you can do about it. Practically speaking, how could you stop her if she really wants to do those things?

A "trial separation" asked for by the WS is virtually a guarantee to a total separation, i.e. there's really no such thing in my book. Don't fall for this "trial" business. If she wants a separation, again, what can you do to stop it?

Don't fall for that utter garbage about a bargain: "if you let us separate, I won't see the OM" = complete fog-driven nonsense. Don't believe it for one second. It's just a ploy to gain your agreement, nothing more. Yes, IMHO, you would be a fool to believe it. Think about it: why does she want to separate? Freedom! What will she do with that new-found freedom?.......you got it!

Since you know that your W and OM are still involved (the phone call, if nothing else), just keep your eyes open. Your wife sounds exactly like mine in that regard. The only reasons she wouldn't leave to pursue that freedom with her OM were practical and logistical ones, so I left, over a year ago. When I did, she was "free" to move on things, which she did. She continues to this day. Your W will most probably do the same (maybe, hopefully, not) so be prepared. If you were told that you could have "carte blanche" to reach into the cookie jar without repercussions of any kind, how often would you be in the kitchen?

Remember that with The Fog in place, she can't see, think, or act clearly, fairly, or sanely. Everything's tinged, clouded, by The Fog. She's not thinking normally or rationally. All she can see is the potential to pursue this relationship with the OM freely and clearly; of course she's going to ask for a "trial separation."

Sorry to worry you. I don't mean to...but maybe, inadvertently, I do. Forewarned is forearmed. Let's chat again. Not to slight JBongio, but I can do two things at the same time. Let me know how you're doing--maybe start your own thread so we're not "horning in" on his.

Ammon

Ammon thank you for the support. More to the story. We began in Sept of 2000 a relocation from the east coast to the west coast primarily at her request to give us an opportunity to develop a stronger closeness. She has a so called best friend in N Cal who she missed and wanted to be closer to, we built a new home over a period of the better part of a year and finally arrived in S. Oregon in Dec 2001. BTW her so called best friend provided a large amount of cover for her initial meetings with the OM. Part of what was going on was an estrangement with her 16 year old son at the time who relocated before we actually moved west to live with his father in the east.

In the early part of our house building and relo plans she was on top of the world - everything seemed going our way. I felt our relationship was going to take on a new level - sure did sometime during this whole process she made contact with the OM former school friend now airline pilot. She is very attractive so I'm sure he felt the attraction - she acted on it. It escalated in the name of love BS. I spoke briefly to the OM's wife to let her know what was going on. Basically I knocked her out of her shoes - she said there was no sign whatever. This AH had the nerve to even be in our house many times when I was away on business - beats a small apartment I'm sure.

I feel like she is going through some mis life crisis thing and lost her way. I also feel she has some serious issues with her self and has never been held responsible internally within her self. Her parents told me they know she is spoiled but continue to contribute to it by supporting her through love for any of her actions.

Am I crazy for wanting to fix her/us and hold this thing together. This is my third marriage her second - my commitment to this one was forever thought hers too. We went through a lot of stress together -- Her son who I helped raise sent me an email afetr this happened to let me know how much I contributed to him by being his step father. He was with us duringthe majority of his growing up age 5 to 16 his Dad was close by so he really was his Dad. Guess I did something right.

She has now created a story around me and my lack of attention to her needs - non compatibilty, and has work hard in the past 6 months to make me feel inadequate by deeds and words. I now know what that was all about.

I believe my only hope is if and when the OM does not follow through she will have that traumatic experience that will allow her to take ownership for something/herself for a change. I have felt very used in all this. It almost sounds like alcohol or drug addiction doesn't it?

She has nothing - only her clothes/office equipment and her 2 dogs and is completely expecting the OM I'm sure to take care of her.

We exchanged emails recently I initiated it to let her know I did some soul searching and better undertand our past communications issues that did do harm - but could have been repaired through counseling.I also told her that I was willing to do what it took to repair this and I loved her deeply. Her response was you can guess that I was responsible for all of this because over the years my attention was on the things (hobby) instead of her. I tried many times to included her and she was involved earlier but began to find fault with everyting associated with it.

Where will this all end?

Jbongio --

Thanks for the update. I believe all of us do a pretty darn-good job of supporting one another here. It's a safe environment and we know we can come here to find what we need to survive.

You are not--repeat not--crazy for wanting to hold your seven-year marriage together. You've figured out a lot of this on your own and have a good handle on most of it. That doesn't make it any easier to bear but we can see it objectively, from the outside, while you're right in the thick of it and very emotionally involved (rightly so).

Again, the statistics say that this will end on its own, that the OM will not follow through with any of his "promises," that your W will be left out in the cold without OM and without you--so you've got to remain available. You want your marriage to continue so you're in there fighting for it. She says she doesn't (typical fog-speak) but what happens when the bubble bursts and OM is once again flying the friendly skies with W? I'll tell you what happens: cold shower time for her. Reality sets in once again. The Fog lifts and clarity of thought and deed are restored. Epiphany!

You have every right to feel used in this, but what are your choices since you want your W back. You need to hang in there for the relationship and for yourself, really for her too. The Fog affects and cripples in exactly the same ways that drug and alcohol addiction touches and maims all those within reach (you made a good analogy!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> -- just the addict but all of the co-dependents.

BTW, my DivorceCare support group says that 92% of all third marriages fail, along with 87% of all second marriages. That hurt when I heard that -- a 9 out of 10 chance that a third marriage won't make it. So...beat the odds here. Hang in and stay focused. You know what you want to happen, are you patient enough to wait for it. Is SHE worth your pain? Work on yourself, read and read some more, get into counseling, create a better you...

Ammon

To all I would be the first to say before this all happened that I didn't believe a support group like this could help. I was unbelievably wrong -- this forum has given me clarity, support, understanding, and peace. thank you so much.

I so much want to keep my M together so I'm going to put my patience to the test and hang in there for the hopeful end of the A and recovery if the Fog lifts. As you have read I have exchanged emails with my WS with one small glimmer in her response that I touched her with my openness never heard from me before.

I'm having my first visit with a counselor next Monday. Keep looking for confirmation that the A will end - God give me patience

Here is her latest response to me -- is this the Fog talking or is it too late?

Too much has happened to me to ever know if time would have been on our side to prevent this a year or so ago.
I guess the move out here masked a lot of my pain and I thought my relationship with you would change and improve. I was wrong.

It seems like I was hurting inside for longer than I care to remember.
I think I told you there wasn't
a day that went by that I didn't get up in the morning and wonder if I could TRULY ever be happy with you. It was always
in the forefront on my brain and even when I told you, you didn't realize the severity of my pain with you. When
I met and fell in love with someone else, I knew how powerful that force really was.

I know you think you can change, but fundamentally I know now you are too quiet and introverted to share with me
what I've known for a long time I needed.

I'm so sorry too; I hope we can remain 'friends' after we both heal; yes, I need time to heal too.

If nothing else, take the "quiet and introverted" comment and work on that. And do it for yourself. If she notices (without you pointing it out), great.

To put it into a EN context, she's alluding to an unmet EN.

jbongio --

"Is this the Fog talking or is it too late?"

IMHO, this is "Fog-Speak" at its most rampant and obvious, even down to some identical words and phrases. We've heard it all before.

Take, for instance, "When I met and fell in love with someone else..." and "I hope we can remain 'friends'" -- it's all in the script.

It's a well-constructed and apparently sincere message to you, enough so to worry you even more as it appears to strike at the very heart of your problems. Notice that she's suddenly got it all figured out, all these years of questioning and suffering, only now has it become clear. If I/we had only acted sooner...did she make her needs known to you? Did you know that there were "structural" problems in your relationship? I'll bet you didn't.

Two points: she says that "Too much has happened to me" -- She's of course alluding to her A and that in and of itself says that what follows has little basis in reality.

Second, she says that as a result of "the move out here...my relationship with you would change and improve." More garbage, more Fog-Speak. She's going to improve your relationship by moving in with another guy????? Utter nonsense, again with no basis in reality.

You've been married to this woman for 7 years, you KNOW her well--does this sound like her? Not at all because it's "not" her -- the aliens have landed. Read WAT's wonderful and very applicable Guide for Betrayed Spouses elsewhere on this site. It's all in there, everything we need to know and think about to see through this stuff.

Is it possible she means what she's written? Yes, it's possible. Is it likely, probable? No, although she thinks she does for now. So you need to hang in, take care of yourself, post again so that we can help, get into counseling, and see this thing for what it really is. Give her time--the odds say not if the Fog will clear, but when. We're here for you...

Ammon

Ammon

Thanks for your support - please tell me I not hearing what I want to hear from this forum. My quietness and so called introvertedness have not magically surfaced since she saw the light. Although I do admit I need to work on it, but it was not an issue in the beginning nor later in our relationship. She has further developed it in her mind since the Fog has come in.

She has looked for the easy way out if that's what's to be. I have had my traumatic experience and am ready to resolve my issues and would willing do the same with her.

One EN I sure is being carried out is an intense sexual relationship probably at the very top of her list of needs that = love btw. My hope is the OM was using this as play time and will walk since its out in the open. Although she can be very powerful with her body - will he give up 20 years and two teen agers plus a house/retirement/savings who knows what else? She has told me the OM W is going to cooperate since they have had their own issues.

We'll see

jbongio --

"We'll see" you say = a good, smart way to look at all of this stuff. This is one of the most difficult parts of the process--marking time, waiting for the cue, standing on the sidelines. You feel that you "ought to be doing something" and your inaction frustrates you all the more.

Standard advice around here says, since almost all A's die out and end by themselves, that BS's should stay away from any direct attempts to end them earlier. Don't interfere. So hard to do but necessary. Let it die a natural and well-deserved death.

Of course these characteristics of yours she talks about have not suddenly popped up like some Atlantis from the sea bottom. Fog-Speak. She needs to create reasons to justify her behavior and lacking any solid ones, is manufacturing them. You've hit it right: "she has further developed it...since the Fog has come in." (See, now you're starting to think and talk like us)

You've got a good, realistic, and healthy take on her garbage. You're right: "She has looked for the easy way out" -- but the problem still exists; there is no easy way out, not at this point.

You ask "will he give up 20 years and two teen agers plus a house/retirement/savings who knows what else?" NO! It is playtime (as you've guessed) and when he tires of this "toy," he'll move on to the next one. That's how these thing work; that's how the Script reads.

Next Fog-Speak: "the OM W is going to cooperate since they have had their own issues." Don't you believe it, not for one second. Two reasons: #1) your W will say anything at this point to make things seem inevitable (they're not at all), and #2) it's all heresay anyhow. Even if your W is relaying something OM has told her, it's coming from him, the Ultimate Liar. He'll say anything to keep this A going. I'm not really suggesting this but if you phoned the OMW, would you hear the same thing from her? Not at all!

Again, your "we'll see" is the wise path here, difficult but prudent. We're here for you 24/7 so post again soon and hang in, this may take some time...

Ammon

Ammon - thanks for keeping me focused on the reality of what's going on. Its tough trying to stay in the background.

I do have a question in the A process. I'm hoping that the Xmas season will have a significant impact on this -- I know its starting to affect me. I believe it is going to be messy for WS and OM - there is no family attachment at all between families.

All of my WS's family and her son are in the east, I'm not sure how she's going to deal with it. I don't see her sitting here in the west by herself -- she'll explode. Maybe she hasn't thought that far ahead. Although there is one relief value - the so called friends in NCal a car ride away - the OM to show up there?

Got to stop trying to figure all the details out - only want the A to end.

BTW you seemed to be a counselor by your clarity and coaching -- doesn't matter its all appreciated

Jbongio,

I just wanted to put my two cents in here. I Have been going on this trip now for two months and have come to learn quite a bit about myself in the process. Listen it is great that you have come to this site. I has worked wonders for me to know that I am not alone.

Some words of advice that may help. I'll show you these from my expierences.

My WW and I were trying to have a child over the last year. In October when that time came I said c'mon its that time isn't it? She found excuses not to do it for a couple of days. Now this was very abnormal for her. She had everthing down to a science as to when, where and how. By the third day I said what is wrong. She then told me that she didn't think our marriage was strong enough to have children. Well when I heard that I thought that I was being attacked so I took little notice of it and actually said some not so nice things back at her.

The next day when I woke up...I WOKE UP!!! Can't explain it but what ever it was I knew that I was in trouble and that through an epiphany or Gods will I knew all that I have done over the years put her in this place. Yes I was not meeting her EN's. I was selfish and very negletful of our 6 year marriage (10 year relationship).

Well a couple of days later all Hell broke loose. I knew that I was in serious trouble and that I needed to make changes in my life. I had always felt a great deal of love for my wife but for what ever reason never let her know the way she needed. We had a talk and both cried. The next day she said that she wanted to live on her own for a while because she had basically lived alone in our own house. I tried my best to see if we could work on this and go to counselling. She half hearted to agree.

Now at this point I had found this site. Read just about ever document I could find. Read "Why women leave men". I fit into just about every catagory. That week I started to do the Plan A but, not taking the advice of many here, I still pressured my WW to discuss her feelings about our M just about everyday. That was getting me now where. A couple of days later I found out by overhearing a conversation that she was having with a friend that she infact was seeing someone else. First lie. She had said there was no one else. While I listened I heard that the OM was the best thing to happen to her and that this must be a sign. She described them as Soul Mates. Said that they had everything in common. In fact OM was married and having difficulties of with his own M. They were coworkers and saw each other everyday. Well I freaked. I didn't know what to do. My whole body shook and I must have looked like a complete mad man. I confronted her after her call. She cried and wanted me to throw her out. NO WAY!! I wouldn't give her the satisfaction.

The next day we went to our first MC session. MY W was not that upset other than lying to me. By this time I knew that I put her in the position to have an A but I didn't make her do it. I took off for a couple of days to visit a fried out of state to try and relax. 72 hours of a panic attack and you will need to get away. Now at this point I thought that my W would want to work on the M. I mean she was going to counselling. Still living under the same roof and the A was only an EA. So before I left I asked for NC with this OM because we couldn't work on us with the distraction of him. I was trying to edjucate her with all this new knowleged I had been getting from this site and all its wonderful people.

I got back and found out that she lied again and was still talking with this guy. She said that she still wanted to live on her own. I still tried to reason with her by telling her all this was normal. That we were text book case study for this. We went to a couple of more MC sessions with the focus mostly on me and why I was selfish and not giving with my emotions. Important to note that since I caught her lying about NC the second time she did stop speaking with him.

OK now lets move to the Friday before Thanksgiving. OM was laidoff of work. We had a session that night. I emailed my wife about something else that day when I found out about this. She said that she didn't want to to to MC and didn't want to talk with me right now. Well I did get her to counselling that night and the session wasn't good at all. Basically she was very angry towards me and the whole situation. She even left 15 minutes early. The MC told her that the ball was in her court. She needed to make a decision and couldn't wait for me to do it for her. Meaning I wasn't going to quit on her so what was she going to do. Well later that night we had talked about taking some time away from each other. Two or three weeks. I left for the weekend so that she could think.

Got back and she said that she couldn't do this anymore and that now she was planning on a much longer seperation. You know seperate bank accounts, getting an apartment, the whole nine yards. Well what was I going to do? I can't make her love me, I can't make her stay, I can't make her do anything. So I said OK go if you have to but slow down a little. Go to your dads place since he won't be there for the next several weeks while we can figure out all the finances. I helped her bring some suitcases to her dads place and gave her a note explaining how much I love her and that I am trying to be a better man day after day.

Now here are some hard learned lessons that I finally got through this. Hopefully they can help you.

1. Do the plan A but don't pressure her about feelings towards you or OM. Infact don't go out of your way to tell her how you feel about her. Just make the time you have together as stress free as you can. Talk about anything else that you two enjoy.
2. Stop driving yourself crazy about it being all your fault. I thought the same thing and some days I still do. You may have made bad decisions that put her in that place but she made all the mistakes after that. Not you.
3. You can not control her. She is going to do what she is going to do. You can only control yourself. Find something to do. Stay healthy. I go to the gym more than ever before. I don't eat much now but I'm making myself take the vitamins and eating stuff that is good for me.
4. Stop acting needy. That was a big one for me. The more my WW saw me and how hard I was trying to be nice to her the more she wanted out. Guilt maybe?
5. When you do talk take the time to listen to her and don't keep forcing your agenda on her. For instance as soon as I found out about OM I said OK now is the time for NC. I wasn't listing. She never told me she wanted to work on our marriage. NC was coming out as a selfish demand at that time. When she comes back to you then use NC as a term for agreement.

These are just some of the things that I had to learn the hard way. I'm still in a lousy place in my heart. You can read some of my posts on the "in recovery" board. I hope some of this helps. Good luck to you in your quest to save your M.

Help - I need some advise. I had my first counseling session today - the physcologist confirm everything up to this point. The OM will probably not follow through and the WW will be left with what to do. I believe she is still in the Fog and is not thinking straight yet. The OM has not yet failed to deliver. The counselor suggested I take the initative to tell her I want to make this work and we can do it togehter and our marriage could be better than belief. I couldn't be her friend as the fog has suggested but need to move ahead with my emotional life, my commitment is with her but if that can't be then for myself I need to resolve my hurt with counseling and take my life forward.

The big question is this too premature? Do I continue to wait for her waterloo with the OM?

Help!

jbongio --

I'm still here with you on this. I knew that today was your first counseling session and I was eager to hear the results and how you're feeling in general. See, your counselor affirmed the standard scenario: OM won't follow through and WW will be out in the cold. You see, "push hasn't come to shove" yet so the CandyMan doesn't need to go any farther with any "plans."

So...my answer: yes, it's way too premature for you to "move on," so you wait as long as you're comfortable waiting, as long as you don't feel stuck. I think you've answered your own question (again!): "I want to make this work and we can do it together and our marriage could be better than belief." So, don't turn your back on this quite yet. As I said, it's a process with its own timeline; it has to run its own course in its own way. As much as you'd like to, you can't rush it.

Only when you've reached your saturation point should you "take your life forward." That isn't to say you should take steps to protect yourself and definitely stay in counseling, certainly to help you resolve your pain. Have you had enough yet?

Thank you for your kind words. I'm a "counselor" only in the sense that I'm a teacher and work with and counsel my students everyday.

Hang in Jim, it's a long and winding road...

Ammon

Ammon -- thanks. My sense is I stand back get focused on other things not easy to do but I'll find a way.

I got this in email yesterday:

I hope this isn't inappropriate, but I just wanted to wish you good luck at your appointment tomorrow.
If I can help you, please know, I will.

I hope you are doing okay...I really do.

Take care,

Is this my W guilt resolution at work -- the concerned WS or is there some sign that things with the OM are in question? Or is this just some sick view of what's happen -- the concerned lets be friends act.

What does she want from me - absolution?

I sure she is waiting for me to tell her the outcome from today -- hoping that all the blame gets laid on me from the counselor. You need to fix yourself for the future, let this M go.

Fact is not surprising the counselor said I have my issues but hers are huge, beginning with taking responsibility for herself and her actions.

God give me patience

jbongio --

Be grateful for small blessings.

Manipulative? I don't think so.

Suppose she does want absolution from you--are you prepared to give it?

And to think you were ready to give up earlier today...

Hang in there (my favorite phrase), my man.

Ammon