Ammon - others please tell me there is a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel.

I wrote:

my appointment was very helpful. It just takes honesty when you talk to a counselor.

If your interested we could talk about it sometime.

My W responded within an hour:

I am interested in talking about it sometime if it will help you get through this.
I guess honesty is a virtue I never possessed.

Are there signs the OM is starting to waver and her guilt is on the moon.

I worked for a boss one time who said and mean it, you need to have a break down to have a break through

Do I keep my distance for now?

God give me patience

Well just had an unhappy telephone call with WS -- same garbage - nothing left for us to fix besides I love someone else and he loves me. Did you think about are you sure he's (OM) going to do what he says. He loves me why wouldn't he.

I called to discuss meeting to discuss my counselors visit which my WS seem to have an interest in - I got the meet in a neutral place I'm concerned for you, care about you but love someone else business when I suggested the counselor believed that we could be saved and even better M.

I did get her to agree to look at the MB web site I sent her the link my only hope is her curiousity will take her there before she dismisses it as a bunch of BS.

This has left me emotionally drained again. My plan is to cut off all communication for my sake and plan on throwing in the towel in Jan. Can get a quick divorce here -- Don't know what else to do, this is crazy and is making me crazy. She has so much baggage - never been held accountable for anything in her life - Maybe the OM is doing me a favor?

jbongio --

One of the things I learned early on in my situation is that "blow hot-blow cold" is a given, a certainty, when dealing with a WS. What you're going through is the standard way things operate once The Fog is in place--and it's firmly in place with your W.

So you have to protect yourself and not be too excited when those rare moments of clarity are present for her. She can't help herself in that regard; it's like an illness--heck, it IS an illness! You wouldn't expect that someone this "sick" with a physical and extremely debilitating problem to be anyplace other than where they are.

My W was the same exact way with her inconsistencies; we don't ever know which way the wind will blow. I STILL say: it ain't over 'til it's over--and even then it ain't over. Can you give this some more time? Can you be more patient?

If you knew that she would be back someday, you'd hang in there, wouldn't you? Of course you don't know that, but might it not be worth the effort to hang in?

I wish you well,
Ammon

Ammon

Thanks for the incouragement.

God give me patience

Well just had an unhappy telephone call with WS
You can't take what they say at face value. What they say can change from day to day, even from hour to hour. Decide how long you can run plan A, and then settle down and run it.

-- same garbage - nothing left for us to fix besides I love someone else and he loves me. Did you think about are you sure he's (OM) going to do what he says. He loves me why wouldn't he.
If you keep talking about OM and trying to teach her, she will stay just to prove she was right. Leave this kind of stuff alone, there is no good to be done with you talking about this subject.

I called to discuss meeting to discuss my counselors visit which my WS seem to have an interest in - I got the meet in a neutral place I'm concerned for you, care about you but love someone else business when I suggested the counselor believed that we could be saved and even better M. Kind of the same, if you approach it from the standpoint of her helping you to improve yourself, and learn how to be a better person, it will probably work, but if she has said the M is over, leave that part alone for now.

I did get her to agree to look at the MB web site I sent her the link my only hope is her curiosity will take her there before she dismisses it as a bunch of BS.
Probably not good yet. You can't teach her right now. You shouldn't try to teach her right now. She is not looking to learn about marriage, or meeting needs. She is looking for emotional fulfillment. You had best learn all YOU can and plan A and be ready to pick up the pieces. One of the worst mistakes is to wait until she has a bad day with HIM and then say " I told you so." IF she starts having bad days with him, you can ask her out on a date and show her a good time. That is what will bring her back in many cases. See, OM doesn't talk about Relationships, he is not sad, he doesn't try to teach her. He is fun, he is happy, and he makes her happy. We tend to be sad, and needy and make them feel pain, and remorse.
Sometimes a little of that is good, but if they get it all the time from us, guess who they want to be with? The one that is fun, and makes them feel good.
That's why you do plan A.

This has left me emotionally drained again. My plan is to cut off all communication for my sake and plan on throwing in the towel in Jan.
If that's where you are, then you will have to do that. If you want her, you should probably plan A longer.

Don't know what else to do, this is crazy and is making me crazy.
Remember that you are not perfect either. If you give it longer, you would have time to fix you before you get out. I'm not trying to tell you what to do, but you should think on things on a good day too, not just on a bad one.

She has so much baggage - never been held accountable for anything in her life - Maybe the OM is doing me a favor?
We all have baggage, we all need to fix it if we want the best kind of relationship. Use the time you have to fix yours, and improve you.

If she called today and said she was leaving OM and coming back, what would you say? That should be an indication of what you should do - if you would take her, then stay in plan A for a while yet. If you can get her to come to MC to help you and give you feedback, so much the better.

You have to make the final decision, whatever you do, we will support you. Remember, only make the final decision on a good day, not when you are depressed, and down.

I am sorry you have to go through this, heres to better days.

SS

Well the old face to face meeting in the neutral place. WS says So what do you want to talk about to me?

Restated my conviction aboout saving things/saw counselor - I have issues but counselor said things could be saved and even better. I never wanted any of this and would not have done this to her under any circumstances. So WS takes the blame - yeah I take the blame, nothing is forever, things happen -- thought I heard the OM talking-- did I?

The big revelation from WS is that if I hadn't acted in a rage when I found out and called everyone and demanded she move out (to the OM apt) which she did- then she would have known I was more committed and she would have been more receptive. Incredable what they will say. She had the usual smugness about her, She was on MB web site and went through the EN questionnaire and of course I failed miserably.

Got the old I want you to be happy want to remain friends stuff. Also I got the I want a divorce, we need to talk about the settlement which we did.

I suggested it could happen very quickly here - she then said it takes four months I detected a stall.

She admitted the OM W wants to try and resolve their issues and I presume stay together -- listen to this the OM W is being incredable in her dealings with this says my WS.

My WS says she is at peace since she left and no emotional turmoil any longer inside her because of me. She has let all her friends and family know since she has left me she is at peace with herself. Do you think they believe this stuff?

We parted very calmly -- I said if thats what you want, I will take care of everything after the 1st of the year so all you have to do is just sign.

The smugness just kills me inside.

Well folks I just got a nasty gram via email about how the original settlement offer isn't valid any more.

No response from me -- since thinking about all of this the correct strategy is NC

If she wants the D so bad she will have to initiate on her own - I have nothing but time.

Do I detect things are starting to unravel with the OM already? He BTW is a pilot for the newly bankrupt carrier - couldn't happen to a nicer guy.

Wonder how things are at home with the OM W?

jbongio --

Haven't heard from you since last Wednesday, so I thought I'd better weigh-in here again to let you know I'm still around in case you'd like to shoot out an update or two. Hope you're still hanging in there--no one said this was going to be easy or quick.

Does W have an attorney? Are some of the things she wants to discuss being generated from that "legal" side of things? Has W filed for D? You can drag your heels as long as possible with this--stall it off and simply not cooperate with her requests for settlements and such. Her response that "the original settlement offer isn't valid any more" is nonsense--the settlement offer is whatever you two decide upon unless and until the courts get in the picture, then things can shift around.

I told my W the exact same thing as you--that if she wanted a D so much, "she will have to initiate on her own" and mine did...

"Do I detect things are starting to unravel with the OM already?" -- Let's hope so; wouldn't that be nice? I like your still-viable sense of humor: "He BTW is a pilot for the newly bankrupt carrier-- couldn't happen to a nicer guy."

"Wonder how things are at home with the OM W?" -- yes, well, that's a whole other side to the pressures on W and OM. Be glad for that, glad that his W and children are formidably in the mix here--you don't know how much incredible effect that side of things can have on OM and the A. The overwhelming odds say, when it comes right down to it, that OM will NOT give up his family voluntarily.

I still say that hanging in with this, just as you're doing, is the only way to go. You have to know inside yourself that you did everything you possibly could do to preserve your relationship. While you can't control what W does, you certainly can control you. You are going to want to hold your head up, no matter which way things go. No quick fixes, no easy simplistic answers, this is going to take much time and patience from you. You also have a completely uncooperative partner (at least for the present) so it's all completely up to you; it's resting 100% on your shoulders; actually about 150% since she's not carrying her share of your marriage right now.

I'm pulling for you. Just don't give up hope-- without hope we lose so much of what we are as human beings. Hang in there...

Ammon

Ammon, Thanks for the continuing vote of confidence. New up date I ran into her yesterday quite by accident - thought I noticed her car inthe apartment lot really unintention just using the road to cut across town. Any way turned around just out of curiosity - it was hers by the plate number so I cut throught the lot to get out and there she is at the mailbox with the two dogs. I cant ingnore her since she sees me so I stop and get the what are you doing here routine. Honest answer i was curious if that was your car. I get the are you ok routine - she is thinking he's here looking for me to beg some more I'm sure. Im fine and I open the door and start petting the dogs and talking to them since I'm really fond of them. See smiles and then says do you want to get a cup of coffee? My answer is no it won't do any good. - I think because I'm going to get the same Bul--hit hope your ok, seeing the counselor how's it going? No thank you!

Her expression changes like night and day to the same righteous look as usual, and doesn't say another word. I said see you later and drove off. The offer was tempting but all I could think about is how miserable and depressed she would make me. I accidently violated my NC.

I think the coffee had to due with the fact I'm sure she is lonely with Mr.about to loose his job Pilot off either at home with W or flying.

My policy will continue to be do nothing and NC. If OM W is not jumping up and down whatever I would be totally amazed. This airline he works for is going down for the count. If Mr. $$Pilot doesn't get his pay halved -- they will go into dissolution then no job at all. How to you tell your wife and kids that they are meaning less when you owe them the right to survive financial. What a MORON this OM is - guess he already proved that with being involved in a A with my W. And she W being just as selfish.

Fog please go away soon.

God give me patience.

Quick update - Had dinner with my step son - WW's son who I helped raise, he is 17 and incredably mature lives with his Dad in the East. He has been very supportive and very disappointed in his mothers actions the A the whole selfishness on her part. We talked for over 3 hours over dinner almost entirely about his Mom and the OM. He was aware of somethings that are signs that the A is starting to unravel. The OM has not told his teen age kids -- according to the OM they are too sensitive to be told yet, he has chosen not to relocate his transportation to the west, he is considering changing to flying domestic routes - which would in my opinion remove the need to have an apt in the west.
My step son said that his MOM is in such a state that one more thing to go wrong will cause her to have a break down. My step son clearly does not trust the OM to do what he says, he thinks he is still living two lives.What a great kid he is - says he loves his MOM but clearly sees her for what she is and knows she needs to take responsibility for herself and get herself into counseling and fixed.
He truly made me feel good about myself - sees that her actions where not justified and hurt so many people including him.

What a MORON the OM, his company is bankrupt he may loose his job or have his pay cut in half. Does he have the B--ls to do the right thing for everyone including his family? Are we headed for the needed tramatic event to lift my WS's fog?

Dear Jbongio

Did you read Harley's book "surviving an Affair"?
You must.
and then start on Plan A
If you can afford it, go for counseling using Harley's service.
Be prepared for a very bumpy road.

all the best,
Mengott

Looking for an opinion --things still status quo NC except for a Bu----it email from her about a checking account, no response from me. Any way has any one had experience with a WS who has many symptoms of Histrionic Personality Disorder HPD.
I have been doing a lot of reading lately and found a link from MB to a psycology site that described personality disorders. My WW has a very strong fit with all the symptoms and thinking back they were evidence even prior to the A. Her post age 40 actions have been text book for this disorder.

So the question is will her HPD symptoms which I believe to be accurate that she has at least a mild version of HPD limit the effect Plan B will have on her. I.E.her ability to refocus from her true emotional feelings to something else to get her through this - get her way.

Still NC -- she is in OM apartment Plan B

Thanks in advance - its getting easier particularly since I have a better view of the A

Jbongio --

Haven't heard from you for ages, since before Christmas. Glad to see you back on the board. How are you? Holding up OK?

I know nothing about HPD but it's possible that one of our members knows something about it.

I hadn't realized that you had gone to Plan B. Had you sent a NC letter? Maybe I've missed a part of your story. What did you mean you now have a better view of the A?

Glad you've posted again; we've been thinking about you. Are you still in counseling? My best wishes to you in this New Year.

Ammon

Sorry for your pain, but-it takes two to make or
break a marriage!

I've been in a marriage for 15yrs, I'm at a crossroad and so is my husband. I know why
couples cheat on each other, it's because there is a break-down, that either want to face!
So, what do we do-"blame" - ourselves, eachother!

Good luck to you and don't be so hard on yourself.

Ammon - Sorry for the confusion but when I found out the A, I insisted she move out -- to the OM apartment - so plan B started shortly after we had a few plan A exchanges that went no where. I have not sent a direct NC letter but have communicated all my loving feelings and desires to keep us together and my commitment to make the M better than before and I would always be there for her via email exchanges.

I got the usual in the FOG answers as posted before. So I implemented plan B NC. But have since discovered what I believe to be a long standing personality disorder with my WS that has gotten progressively worse that now includes this A. My comment about the better view of the A has to do with the fact that no matter what I may have done ENs to avoid this - it probably was going to happen anyway. No one can keep up with the ENs of a HPD personality.

Just looking for someone who has experience with a WS who had this HPD personality disorder.

My plan is to continue to wait out the end of the A. I believe the OM will end it one day as they usually do. If not Plan B will get me to the point that I will be able to end it.

I still have hope -- its just that now its obvious there are more basic issues at work with my WS - I am fearful she will have a complete break down if the OM ends the A.

Hope someone out there has some advise. I am still in counseling but have not been able to discuss my belief of HPD with the counselor yet.

Thanks as usual

All - back posting - need an opinion a lot has happened. WS made an email contact that led to a wonderful week of seeing and experiencing one another again while the OM was back with his W and kids. We spent 3 overnights together at her request and had some very emotional moments BUT

OM is now back again but she is continuing contact with me but only email etc. BUt she has begun counseling for herself and has said no reconciliation. She has said she loves me and now knows it but can't let go of this other relationship - he is back in town again and they are together in the apt.

My counselor says there is hope that things are unraveling. She is going to counseling at her own valition something I didn't think she would ever do. I believe she finally hit bottom after our week together and finally realized she needed help.

I need some validation that she is in the process of fixing herself to gain the courage to end this A. It is very hurtful that they are together again and our communication is now limited. I do have a sense that she did not divulge all that happened with me - she lied to OM which I take to be a good sign.

My counselor says I need to stop thinking and analyzing and start feeling and continue with my love building.

I can think of no one who I detest more in the world than this OM, who continues to manipulate my WS - I am hopeful that she will finally gain the strength to end things.

Is time on my side? Can I should I endure this? She has asked me not to close her out and give her time and space and understanding. I am having trouble dealing with this but she doesn't know that.

Need some validation!

Jbongio --

So glad to see that you're back amongst us! It's been almost a month and we were wondering how things were going. Don't forget about us.

Indeed, a lot has happened for you, and they sound to me as if they're mostly "up" things. Three overnights (at her request!) during that magical week are significant and certainly have given you renewed hope.

It is troubling that as soon as OM "finishes" with his W and children and returns to his apartment, your WS is back there with him. Don't remember, but does OMW know anything? How long now has your W been living there? This isn't what you want and certainly is very painful, but look at the overall positives in the last month:

1) W continues email contact with you, even now

2) W "returned" to you the first chance she got

3) W set up your week together, requesting it herself

4) Three glorious overnights

5) W initiated IC sessions and continues with them (unexpected bonus!)

6) W says she loves you and "now knows it" (no small progress here)

7) W lied to OM (I assume about her whereabouts during that week)

8) W asks you "not to close her out and give her time and space and understanding."

That's a pile of good signs for you to chew on. Certainly we don't want your W continuing the A but she is addicted at this point (she "can't let go of this other relationship"). Who knows how long it will take for this either to die down or explode.

Why did your IC say that "there is hope that things are unraveling"? A general comment or based on more specific information?

"I need some validation that she is in the process of fixing herself to gain the courage to end this A." -- I agree that this is her probable main goal, but not necessarily her only one with her IC. Her sessions could uncover some other issues (like why this A happened in the first place).

"My counselor says I need to stop thinking and analyzing and start feeling and continue with my love building." -- Surely you've been feeling your immense pain in this very hurtful situation all the way along. Does IC think you're over-analyzing?

"Is time on my side?" -- Yes! Most definitely!

"Can I, should I endure this?" -- Yes! You CAN do it and you should if you want your marriage to continue. She's not going to be able to help much until the A dies, so you need to be the primary advocate for your relationship.

Hang in there, jbongio, this is doable! Don't wait so long to post to us next time...

Ammon

Ammon my comments

posted February 02, 2003 09:43 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jbongio --

So glad to see that you're back amongst us! It's been almost a month and we were wondering how things were going. Don't forget about us. (I haven't you give me strength)

Indeed, a lot has happened for you, and they sound to me as if they're mostly "up" things. Three overnights (at her request!) during that magical week are significant and certainly have given you renewed hope.

It is troubling that as soon as OM "finishes" with his W and children and returns to his apartment, your WS is back there with him. Don't remember, but does OMW know anything?(OMW knows I told her -- she is being manipulated by him I've been told she doesn't want divorce so is acccepting situation "sick lady") (OM rents apt he uses it as a place to wait to be notified to fly on reserve he can be there for weeks at a time waiting to be notified to fly gets paid for doing nothing guess why they're bankrupt)How long now has your W been living there?(little over 2 months when I demand she leave the house when I found out)This isn't what you want and certainly is very painful, but look at the overall positives in the last month:

1) W continues email contact with you, even now

2) W "returned" to you the first chance she got(i did not have contact with her whatsoever for month and half - she told me it was very painful)

3) W set up your week together, requesting it herself ( I followed up on her initial contact and things progressed -she did plan the 3 overnights)

4) Three glorious overnights

5) W initiated IC sessions and continues with them (unexpected bonus!)(She was very distraught said her self esteem was at bottom and brought up counseling - I got her in to see assoc of my counselor - mine coudn't due to conflict of interest- W said this was not to be considered reconciliation though)

6) W says she loves you and "now knows it" (no small progress here)

7) W lied to OM (I assume about her whereabouts during that week)

8) W asks you "not to close her out and give her time and space and understanding." (want to believe her)

That's a pile of good signs for you to chew on. Certainly we don't want your W continuing the A but she is addicted at this point (she "can't let go of this other relationship"). Who knows how long it will take for this either to die down or explode.

Why did your IC say that "there is hope that things are unraveling"? A general comment or based on more specific information? (general comment based on my describing W's contact.)

"I need some validation that she is in the process of fixing herself to gain the courage to end this A." -- I agree that this is her probable main goal, but not necessarily her only one with her IC. Her sessions could uncover some other issues (like why this A happened in the first place). (I need big confirmation of this - to be able to endure - I have feelings of being used - letting her have her cake and eat too -continued contact with OM just like he is doing to his S)

"My counselor says I need to stop thinking and analyzing and start feeling and continue with my love building." -- Surely you've been feeling your immense pain in this very hurtful situation all the way along. Does IC think you're over-analyzing? (IC - yes she told me so - will see IC 2/7 will discuss this)

"Is time on my side?" -- Yes! Most definitely!

"Can I, should I endure this?" -- Yes! You CAN do it and you should if you want your marriage to continue. She's not going to be able to help much until the A dies, so you need to be the primary advocate for your relationship.

Hang in there, jbongio, this is doable! Don't wait so long to post to us next time...

Do I continue with our email contact while OM is around? It is so hurtful knowing she is with him, I feel like I should be doing NC for my own sake and health.

Thanks so much again for your counseling - you are very wise - you've got me this far I thank you.

new update as of this afternoon. W stopped by to pick up two books 1. A highly sensitive person HSP(me for sure her probably although not as severe) 2. SAA (wanted to know if it would help)told her if she wants to understand it will.

She is an emotional wreck - OM still around -says she cries at everything - will see counselor again this coming week - says she has a lot of anger, not sure what that means. She has figured out that she needs to fix herself first. Is still stuck and can't make a decision.

OM is now talking about counseling as well - he is one sick SOB - all about manipulating her even had the balls to ask for my cell number so he can call me if something might happen to her since I'm still the husband etc. All an act to show his concern for everyone - if he had any he would go home to his family.

God give me patience

jbongio --

"Do I continue with our email contact while OM is around?" -- Tough call. Are you in a strict NC situation? I thought your 3 overnights plus that week of contact with her knocked out the NC plan. I'd stay in contact. Let her email you. She obviously is having problems sustaining this other relationship and she seems to be turning back to you throughout. Let her come. I think you need to be there for her.

Good that she wants to read and learn and grow. The SAA book is a good choice, don't know HSP. Also good that she stays in counseling, as you are. The anger is mostly guilt (a good thing). Her being stuck is also a good thing in that her conscience is giving her a hard time. Part of her is still attracted by OM and whatever that represents to her (why she returns to that situation). The other part of her is arguing and reducing the Fog. She's torn but by no means is she lost yet.

BTW, I hope your cell phone number was not provided to OM. That whole scenario is utter nonsense. You wisely haven't bought into it.

So, you continue to hang in and give it time and have the patience of a saint. This will take all you've got. Keep the updates coming...

Ammon