We had a joint conselling session yesterday.<P>By time we left I was seething with anger. He never said anything about himself. He rarely answered her questions and I found myself wanting to tell her that he wasn't being honest. <P>About the only time he said anything was when she was talking about the way I act and then it was not very complimentary. <P>I have been trying to discuss the fact that he always belittles me and acts like I'm a mental and emotional inferior. I have tried to discuss how he lordes this over me. I admitted that I am probably attention defecit and always have been. I told her the stupid little things I do and the things I obsess over that drive my H nuts. I've also have tried to explain to her how brutal he can be about them and how he has no patience with anyone who isn't as "together" as he is. He doesn't try to help me, he condemns me. When she asked questions I answered them. He didn't answer any of her questions so he comes across as being totally together and I'm certifiable. What's worse is he believes this anyway so it is just reinforcing his mental and emotional superiority thing he has going that I have been trying to discuss during our sessions.<P>I know I'm screwed up, but after almost a month we haven't resolved anything accept convince my H that I'm totally luney. I feel he is using my depression as an excuse to not try to change the way he deals with my needs.<P>During my private session she told me I must stop letting him verbally abuse me, but during our joint session we didn't talk about much except all my mental problems and how my son's have inherited them. This is another area where my H has blamed me and been very hurtful about. <P><BR>We discussed the 5 Love Languages. I'm a doer. I show love by doing so therefore receive feelings of being loved by people doing. That is my language. He is not a doer, I understand that, but if he would just show some emotion or pleasure or excitement or something when I do something for him (nonsexual that is) that would atleast help me perceive it by making me feel appreciated. He acts either like he was deserving of it, or sometimes he even makes fun of me about it. <P>He told her he shows love by personal touch. I wasn't able to tell her any way that he shows any love at all, atleast to me. I admitted that I understand that is because he isn't showing it in a way that I perceive it as love. He does snuggle with my daughter and also did with my boys when they were younger. He wrestles with all of the children. I can see that is a form of bonding. He also tries to use words of encouragement, but isn't very comfortable with it so it comes across extremely insincere.<P>Later I tried to talk to him about this. I tried to explain to him that if I do something nice for him and he says thank you with no enthusiasm whatsoever it means nothing to me. If he acted enthusiastic or pleased I could still register it as something he is doing and I could perceive it. He said he couldn't understand why I couldn't just believe him when he says he is pleased and go on.<P>When I tried to explain to him that I was and had always been showing him love and he was also not perceiving it he didn't believe me.<P>Basically he said that I was unreasonble for not perceiving his love, and I was also unreasonable for thinking that I was showing love in a way that he could perceive it and therefore must not have ever felt it for him.<P>He treated the entire conversation as just more of my dillusional unreasonable reactions. He then got mad which was a major lovebuster for me. Again it is the only confirmation I can get of his feelings.<P>I feel that him going to counseling with me has just reinforced this reaction, because she has told us that I am suffering from depression and will have a tendency to overreact. Now I am overreacting about everything so nothing I have to say has any credibility.<P>I am very tempted to not go back with him but then he will stop going because he has already told me he doesn't need help, he is only going to help straighten me out. I'm going to ask that we either see her separately or see different people. I refuse to sit there and be further belittled by him.

The anger is still strong. <P>I've ordered Angry All the Time. I developing quite a library. It won't be here for a few days.<P>My children are angry too. The atmosphere in our house is pretty bad right now.<P>When he gets home he will be mad. If we discuss this anymore he will just get madder. If I just let it go he will be further convinced that it was a temporary psychotic episode. <P>Maybe it is. I am really beginning to question my own sanity.<P>My anger is telling me this just another way that he is manipulating me.<P>He says hateful things and then when I bring it to his attention he denies it. I ask him things and then he says I never did. I really do not feel I'm dillusional, but he keeps telling me I am either by these actions or outright telling me.

Essyboo -- Maybe you do have a problem with anger, but I have been in your place so I think that part of it is justified. Your H seems to want you to "read his mind". Let me give you an example from my own experience.<P>When W and I were in joint counseling, I expressed the concern that I didn't feel W was serious about the therapy. I felt this way because she never said anything about us "working to try to repair the marriage", "wanting to stay" with me, or anything that indicated she really wanted things to work out. The therapist told me "Well, she's here isn't she?". I asked if there weren't times in her experience where one spouse showed up for the counseling, but was doing it just for appearances rather than being interested in working on the marriage. She didn't answer me, just moved on...<P>Well, I took that to mean that I was supposed to be able to read her mind. Throughout the last several years, I was told by W that I should have known something that I had told her I wasn't aware of. Mind-reading again...<P>I will say one thing for your therapist. She seems to be working hard not to pollute the joint work with the individual work. Ours was also W's individual therapist. She accepted all of W's complaints and descriptions of me in her individual sessions and worked to validate those perceptions in the joint work, completely ignoring my concerns, fears and questions.<P>I asked W for several months that when I corrected some behavior that she had had problems with, that she let me know. I'm a big believer in positive reinforcement. Counselor asked her if she could do that and she said "Yes". Well, she did it once in 4 months. She might comment later that she had seen positive changes, but never seemed to be able to identify them. She certainly didn't reinforce them at the time when she could identify them. I mentioned this at joint counseling and the therapist just moved on to another subject.<P>So I think there are ways in which your H and my W have some similarities. Many times I reacted with the same anger you have. It's anger borne of frustration. I have learned over the last month or two to control it. It doesn't seem to make any difference to W, but I feel better because I'm less likely to say something I regret later. So it would be an advantage for you to learn to rein in the anger even if it doesn't help your relationship with H.<P>Not much meat in this, just a lot of words, but I hope you can find something that helps you....<P>--DeWayne--

My H just called from work to see how my shopping trip went with the kids. I popped off and said "Fine, I didn't have any psychotic episodes and your children are fine." <P>He said he didn't mean it that way. I tried to lighten things up by making a joke that I guess I needed to add paranoia to the list, but the damage was already done.

Essyboo -- If you find the complete "cure" for yourself, let me know. I have done exactly what you have just described. Then, I feel terrible for having done it. It's a product of the anger. Once you control the anger those "smart-aleck" remarks will end, too.<P>Be strong<P><BR>--DeWayne--

Essyboo--<P>I have some thoughts I'd like to try to convey to you, but wish me luck--the kids are still up since it's the weekend and they're driving me crazy. <P>I got a similar feeling from what you've related to things that have happened between H and me. I've gotten so frustrated when I've tried to tell H what I need from him that it ends up with me being cruelly flippant (like yours--"Fine, I didn't have any psychotic episodes and your children are fine."). That's when we're expressing our own hurt and anger, but we're turning it back on them. Bad cycle. You're right, the damage was done. <P>I have confused and angered my H so much at times during verbal fights that he's called me a lunatic, along with quite colorful curses. Again, that cycle...he feels defensive and strikes back. <P>We can't TELL them how to act with us, even if what we're actually trying to tell them is simply what we want. People can definitely change, but they have to want the changes. Just telling them is a form of control because all of a sudden, there's a demanding edge to it. Your H will not show you forms of love in exactly the way YOU do, because he's not you.<P>Sometimes...to start a change, you have to change too. You must learn to control your temper...and to vent in a different way other than what you've been doing toward your H. It sounds to me like in your sessions, your H is very closed and guarded, lashing out against you when he feels blamed. During OUR sessions, my H sounds much more rational than me. He's actually very talkative and even though he's NOT condemning me, somehow I still feel like he's pointing a finger at me, and the counselor even sometimes looked at me, like "uh, so what's the problem? HE sounds normal..." Part of that is because we females approach things, during upset, SO emotionally. Sometimes we lose sight of the true reality...our problems are often about basic communication, and we BOTH have every right to our own feelings and standards.<P>What you might try to do is completely withhold negative comments when you feel the need to tell H the ways you wish he'd express love to you. My guess is he may respond better to positive reinforcement with rewards. An example...maybe during a hug upon returning from work, you might say "oooh, that felt good, your hand on my back...would you mind giving me a quick shoulder rub?" If he gives your shoulders a few squeezes, "that makes me feel soooo much better, you're good at that! Shall I return the favor later?" Or..if conversation is something missing, how about telling him FIRST what his reward is if he does what you request, "honey, it's one of those days...so much going on...I'd really feel a lot better if you'd sit down for 10 minutes and just let me rehash what happened with you. I'll feel like a weight's been lifted! Would you like [insert his favorite] for supper tonight?" Yes, it's a bit of manipulation there, but in such a nice way I bet he wouldn't mind. (make sure the convo. is about 10 minutes though! lol) <P>Laura

I understand and agree.<P>The main problem is that his account is still so very low. I feel so forced and insincere because so often it is forced and insincere. It seems like such a paradox. Get him to deposit love points by depositing love points. <P>How can you deposit them when you feel so angry. How can you deposit them when you feel that his account is overdrawn. He can go from a +999 balance to a -999 balance with one action. I feel that this interpretation means that I truly want to reach that 1000 romantic love level, but at the same time it terrifies me. I take every hurt as a sign of impending "Ultamate Hurt".<P>I sure would like to know what my balance is with him. Is that something we should ever ask?<P>I may start a thread concerning that question.

Essyboo--<P>Sounds like your H is already indicating to you that his lovebank is also pretty low. Don't ask him right now. You may not like the answer you get, and that could start another period of bad feelings!<P>If you're so angry with him right now, stands to reason there's very little he can do to impress you until you're calmer. Try to diffuse that anger yourself. Do something nice for you! A bubble bath, your favorite drink, a feel-good movie...distance yourself until a more even emotion is reached, then return to talk to him, not in anger but in a mood to better give of yourself. Does that make sense? Your taker is off-kilter due to unmet emotional needs, but without calming yourself, you don't give him a fair chance to at least not go further in the hole with that lovebank balance.<P>Our counselor told us okay, so we get upset/mad with each other. It's up to each to be in CONTROL of our own emotions, and maturely resolve the conflicts as an adult. The other person doesn't "make us mad," we make ourselves mad! An argument BECOMES an argument because one rose to the bait, and both didn't control themselves. Ever heard the saying, "I'm just standing here arguing with myself." That's what it would be if the other never rose to the bait!<P>You've got to get to the point where you can express ALL your feelings to your H, and him to you, but without the angry/upset emotion behind it. It will create more harmonious living, and pave the way for those GOOD feelings you both want to express to each other. Think of it this way...the longer you argue (or lovebust in a variety of ways), the longer you're holding ON to those bad feelings, and it's not helping ANYone. While you're learning to do that (and it IS a learned skill), take time-outs when negative emotions erupt. Then return to the conversation once better in control of yourself. Or agree to discuss that specific, volatile subject later...and talk of other things! Don't worry that one or both of you sounds "fake" as you're testing your skills being more polite to each other. That's okay. It gets easier. And you can both take pride in offering that respect to your partner, that you both deserve!<P>We still fall off the wagon...and argue. But the episodes are getting fewer and farther between. Try. It can only help! I know how hard it is, I dwell on past hurts. *I* have to let go of that. So do you.

I'll try it. I'm still pretty wound up this morning.<P>My H hasn't spoken to me since he first came home last evening. He is at work today. <P>I'm going to take the kids somewhere for the day and just try to get my mind off of things for a while.<P>I would like to think that he is just giving me space and isn't being mad at me, but it sure comes across as being hateful anger.<P>I fear his anger so much. I fear him running back to her.

Why do you fear his anger so much? Is your greatest fear that his continued anger at you will propel him back to OW? Has that come up in counseling?<P>My H was genuinely surprised, in counseling, to learn my greatest fear was that he would leave. His greatest fear is that I will kick him out! Sure sounds like we want to be together, doesn't it? So then...why do we keep hurting each other? <P>Try your very best not to lovebust. I'm glad you're spending time doing fun things with the kids today. Come back to him in a more positive mood. You trying will help him to try too.

I feel he had the affair because he was unhappy with me. He has told me that he just wasn't happy time and time again.<P>I also fear his insults and belittling that tend to start up when he is bothered or angry. When that starts I end up getting mad and then things get bad. When things get bad and he is mad I'm afraid he will seek more peaceful ground. Things were "real peaceful" at her house.