lulu,

I really like you letter. One thing I always said to my husband that seemed to help and I'd like to add it to something that addresses the inability of the "fogman" to believe in the possibility....would go like this:

Please try to put aside any skepticism you may feel about rebuilding this marriage and remember one thing: We have a lifetime to divorce each other, but we have a very short window of opportunity to save our marriage. It is the right thing to try. It is the right thing to deal with one relationship at a time. I know you are an honorable man and that the duplicity of this must be weighing heavily upon you.

I will leave it to you and cerri and TMCM to decide whether this is a valuable addition to your excellent letter.

Later....sorry.

<small>[ October 12, 2003, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: *LULU* ]</small>

Lulu-

I agree this is the best thing for your WS to hear. Certainly better than my WW hearing me cry and sob after learning about her A with OM1.

C-
Am I being too picky or wouldn't it be better for Lulu to tell her WH that she (or the marriage?) NEEDS him to end his A immediately and that she (or the marriage) NEEDS him to commit to NC rather than using the phrase, "WOULD LIKE YOU TO"? Does the word 'NEEDS' sound too much like a demand?

Should Lulu tell the WH these things or give him the letter before or after her appointment with the MC?

Also, there is nothing about consequences in this letter if the A does not end. I mean, it almost sounds like a Plan B letter except for the consequences, like no contact with Lulu until the A ends. Is it too early for this sort of language?

HoFS

Yep, really like the part about appealing to his honor. Put that in the place where you ask him to end it with her and respect both your marriage and hers.

Hi Star!!! <smiling and waving> What's the party for??

<small>[ October 12, 2003, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: *LULU* ]</small>

C-

There you go....talking over me when I'm trying to post. Geesh. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

HoFS

Hi Hoffs,

C-
Am I being too picky or wouldn't it be better for Lulu to tell her WH that she (or the marriage?) NEEDS him to end his A immediately and that she (or the marriage) NEEDS him to commit to NC rather than using the phrase, "WOULD LIKE YOU TO"? Does the word 'NEEDS' sound too much like a demand?

Yeah it smacks of demand. And as much as we all know it's the right thing and the honorable thing to do she still can't demand.... she needs to ask.

Should Lulu tell the WH these things or give him the letter before or after her appointment with the MC?

Well, being the confrontational sort that I am.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I think before. That way the MC can't convince her to procrastinate.

Also, there is nothing about consequences in this letter if the A does not end. I mean, it almost sounds like a Plan B letter except for the consequences, like no contact with Lulu until the A ends. Is it too early for this sort of language?

She can't threaten.... that also turns it into a demand. She needs to let him know what she knows, how she knows and how she feels. Then she needs to ask for what she wants, with a statement about her willingness to make changes. Honesty and an attempt to negotiate. Those are the first steps in any marital problem.

If that doesn't work she moves on to exposure (without threatening.... just do it) and then to Plan B.

Now.... ahem...... <raised eyebrows> any news???

C

Lulu: As for your H saying he is/was miserable and your marriage is dead, according to you in: I am Completely and Officially Weirded Out he said you were his "soul mate" just two months ago. To refresh you memory, your H told someone who was pursuing him: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ...his heart belonged to me, and me alone...he actually expanded on that theme quite a bit. I just gave the condensed version. To sum up, he basically said that he is the man he is today because of me, and that should they have gotten together years ago that he would be different. He said something else about how he and I have been through hell and back, with several vacations in purgatory for good measure and that I'm his soulmate and that he belongs to me. There was some other mushy stuff in there that brought tears to my eyes...you get the idea. He laid it on thick...that's why she's backpedaling furiously.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Contrast that with what he is saying now: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> he has resented me from the very beginning of our marriage </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It makes no sense. That is why so many people like the "Space Aliens invaded his (or her) Brain" idea. What he is saying now is a severe distortion of reality.

OTOH, speaking of distortions of reality, I am confused. You said in the same thread: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We do have a wonderful and strong marriage. I guess we could be considered the poster children for what could go terribly right when a couple reads Harley's books in the first year of marriage. We've been married almost a decade and haven't had our union tarnished by infidelity </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yet, you did not spend anything near 15/hours per week together, you saw no problem with him having close female friends, and you ignored advice (which is exactly what Harley would have said) that he end all contact with a "friend" that was pursuing him. It sounds like you were picking some of Harley's ideas and using them, but ignoring the rest. His books are actually pretty terse. There isn't anything in there you can afford to ignore. The same is true of C's advice.

<small>[ July 29, 2003, 02:24 PM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lulu:
<strong>should I give this to him as a letter? or should I just try to stick with it and say it from memory?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you should do it as a conversation. He needs to see how much this hurts you and hear you say it to his face. It's more difficult, certainly, but it has more impact as well.

Write yourself some one sentence notes if you have to. Tell him you are so devastated that you want to make sure you get it right.... that you have reminders to be considerate and caring.

C (ever notice, I like words that start with "C"??? considerate, caring, courteous, confront..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

John!! Long time no see...... and now that I have your attention...... maybe you could pop on over to one of the three bonfire threads and let your intentions be known????.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

You are right that it really doesn't work to pick and choose which of the concepts to follow. I guess we all learn that the hard way.... still today I find new depths to the knowledge and understanding I have. This recovery stuff is darn hard work. Always something waiting to bite you in the butt.

C

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cerri:
<strong>
Now.... ahem...... <raised eyebrows> any news???

C</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you'd notice a disturbance in the space/time continuum if I had heard anything....one way or another. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I still think that "would like you to" implies a demand. There isn't much of the classic, "I feel ______ when you ________." in that phrase either. I guess one just needs to come across as a little softer.

Lulu-

I think you should give your WH a letter rather than relying on doing it from memory. I've tried this and I usually ended up straying from the script. Also, I think you should give it to him and not leave until he has finished reading it. Wait to get an immediate response. See what he has to say. Of course when I did this to my WW, she denied everything and demanded to see the proof I had. Be ready for your WH to do the same thing. If your WH denies the A until you show him the proof, then well, I think you should be ready to show him the evidence but truth be told, he really doesn't need to see the proof. He just wants to make sure that you aren't on a wild goose chase.

HoFS

<small>[ July 29, 2003, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: HofFenceSitter ]</small>

I also want to remind you that when you are ready to confront your H, to be well prepared with your script because he IS an aspiring actor and he more than anybody will be able to spot whether your words are real or you are just reading from a script. So practice your delivery before you present it to him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by HofFenceSitter:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cerri:
<strong>
Now.... ahem...... <raised eyebrows> any news???

C</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you'd notice a disturbance in the space/time continuum if I had heard anything....one way or another. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I still think that "would like you to" implies a demand. There isn't much of the classic, "I feel ______ when you ________." in that phrase either. I guess one just needs to come across as a little softer.

Lulu-

I think you should give your WH a letter rather than relying on doing it from memory. I've tried this an I usually ended up straying from the script. Also, I think you should give it to him and not leave until he has finished reading it. Wait to get an immediate response. See what he has to say. Of course when I did this to my WW, she denied everything and demanded to see the proof I had. Be ready for your WH to do the same thing. If your WH denies the A until you show him the proof, then well, I think you should be ready to show him the evidence but truth be told, he really doesn't need to see the proof. He just wants to make sure that you aren't on a wild goose chase.

HoFS</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, I thought I would have heard if you knew anything, but I wanted to make sure. I'd hate to have you tell me 3 weeks from now and then say... well you never asked..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Mmmmmmm see it's a matter of how different words affect you. If someone says to me... we need to do something.... my hackles go up. It sounds like I have no choice.

OTOH if someone says I'd like you to do something.... it feels like a request. It's what the other person would want, but there is no threat or coercion... just a statement of what they would like.

I guess Lulu can do it either in person or in letter. I like in person for the reasons I said above.... he should hear it from her lips.

Also, I think she should be upfront about how she knows. Honesty isn't negotiable. "I suspected and I looked at your email."

As I said.... he'll have a hissy. Let him. The planet will continue to turn and he'll get over it.

C

<small>[ October 12, 2003, 11:29 AM: Message edited by: *LULU* ]</small>

Thank God there's still enough for me to sit on.

Well then.... you might be in better shape than some of us ... some days... LOL

okay. so i need to confront him and get his immediate reaction. I'm on board with that. Now, do I do it in a letter or in person? I have 1 vote apiece.

So, if I sign in under my other names and vote do they count???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Next, I only tell everyone if he refuses to end contact, right? Does confronting the OW get done anyway, or is she included with tell everyone?

Really, it's a moot point... because I would be shocked if he meekly agreed to end it. But there are differing schools of thought on this. Bill Harley says tell... expose... put it on the evening news. Steve and Jenn are way more conservative and things have to drag on for a long time before they suggest exposure. I say give him a one day running start, give him 24 hours to make good on any promises to end all contact and send a n/c letter and then go for it.

She, OTOH, needs to be confronted regardless. She needs to know you know and you need to introduce that kind of conflict into their little fantasy world. You want their next conversation to be about "OMG what are we going to do she knows.... what will she do.... who else will she tell....??" rather than their usual lovey dovey aren't we a wonderful couple <gag me> fantasy bubble.

C

<small>[ October 12, 2003, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: *LULU* ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now, do I do it in a letter or in person? I have 1 vote apiece.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In person.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Next, I only tell everyone if he refuses to end contact, right?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Does confronting the OW get done anyway, or is she included with tell everyone?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes confront the OW anyway but do so in a letter because personal confrontation between the BS and OP has the potential to become an explosive and dangerous situation. You want to be respectful in your letter to the OW because you want to appeal to her sense of justice (if there is one) while at the same time firmly letting her know that any knowledge of further contact with your WH will find itself back to her BH.

<small>[ October 12, 2003, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: *LULU* ]</small>

<small>[ October 12, 2003, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: *LULU* ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">do i confront her before him or after?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Preferably just before you confront him.

One more thing, is to let her know that you have already confronted him with your knowledge of the A. I know it's a lie but she is one person that you do not have an obligation to be honest with.