Please help me - Cerri, Zorweb, Orchid, TMCM, Pepperband

I am reeling. You all come highly recommended by my friend Starfish - that's why this post is addressed to you.

Let me give you some background first: I am 31, WH is 32. We live in San Francisco, CA. I am unemployed currently - was laid off from the past two jobs I held. WH is pursuing an acting career while working full time at his dayjob as a telecom engineer. We've been married for almost eight years. No children.

Actors work notoriously weird hours, and in close contact with others in an emotionally charged atmosphere. Egos, insecurities, flirtations all seem to be commonplace.

I've been in a serious funk for the past two years. After WH put me through school (I have a BS in Accounting) I landed a job at a Big FIve firm. After I was laid off, It took me 8 months to find a new one. After 4 months of temp work, I was laid off again. I haven't worked since January this year, and although I collect unemployment, it runs out soon.

My therapist and I have also been talking about what I want out of a career, and I have been actively preparing for applying to graduate school.

Our relationship unfortunately has been marked by much hardship - both financial and otherwise. Too much work and no play makes for a miserable marriage. We filed for bankruptcy 5 years ago. The last vacation we ever took was our honeymoon. We've spent the past 8 years spinning our wheels, and it has come to the point where nothing is very much fun anymore.

However, WH & I were actively planning to move to Los Angeles next year where he could more easily pursue his acting career. We've been planning budgets, making lists of things we need, paying off bills and looking on the internet for housing options.

I thought everything was pretty much okay for us. That this was the storm before the clear. We haven't been having SF - I just chalked it up to his exhaustion from essentially working two jobs. I know we were anxious to move, and I thought the stress of that was making things tense at home.

I was wrong. Terribly wrong.

Last Sunday, 7/27, WH and I went to the movies, and then out for dinner. His show had just wrapped the previous evening, and he should have been calm and relaxed. Instead, he was tense and complained of a stomachache.

In the middle of dinner, he blurts out, "Can we talk now?" Sure, I replied. He proceeded to tell me that he was miserable, unhappy and that he wanted a divorce. He said that he loves me, that he likes me as a good friend, but that he's not in love with me any longer.

I know...warning signs? Red flags?

But I didn't focus immediately on the probability of another woman. I didn't want to freak him out, I wanted him to talk to me. So, he went on to say that he feels like he hasn't really lived, that the past eight years have been nothing but struggle and that he has resented me from the very beginning of our marriage. He said he wanted a divorce, but he wanted to remain friends. He seemed very concerned that we remain friends, and then proceeded to ask me if I was going to rake him over the coals.

I was in shock, but I knew I had to buy myself some time, so I suggested that instead of leaping right into divorce proceedings, lets do a trial separation and see a marriage counselor. He reluctantly agreed, saying that if I needed a moderator there to help me understand the inevitable, that was fine.

Yesterday, he asked me out for ice cream. I said sure, and he mentioned that he had a lot on his mind. He picked me up, and we went to the mall. Believe me, my inner warning bells and whistles were going off! Why would he want to talk in such a public place, when just the previous day, we drove to the ocean and talked in the car alone?

He said something about how he thinks that we would just be very good friends if we never got married. He then asked me why we were spending so much money and time talking to "people" (meaning therapists) when what he really needed and wanted to do was move out. He also mentioned that this was just dragging out the inevitable.

I asked him why he had changed his mind - and now seemed set on moving out and getting divorced? That I thought we had agreed to a trial separation and keep an open mind about what the possibilities for our marriage were. He said that he hadn't really made up his mind yet and then asked how I saw this situation resolving itself. I told him that I didn't have any idea, and that I didn't want to get any ideas - that it was too early in the process. He said that he thought we would get divorced and that our relationship would return to its "natural state" of good friends.

This morning, I figured out how to break into his email account and confirmed my worst fears. He is having an affair with a married woman. The few emails that were there are very hurtful to me. He spends much time badmouthing me and saying ugly things about me. He calls her "lover" and he uses such phrases as "I've never loved anyone like I love you" and "I can't wait to start our life together" and "I'm sitting across from L and I'm wishing it was you instead." He was actually emailing his lover at our local internet cafe while I ordered coffee.

There are other emails though. In one, he tells her to return to her husband, because someone already knows and it will only take one person to suspect and ask her husband about it. He, thankfully seems to think I am too dumb and gullible to suspect anything.

I've never met her, but I know what she looks like and what her name is - from his emails.

I have an appt. with a marriage counselor tonight. He knows about it and he's driving me there and picking me up. He hasn't moved out yet, but I can't think of any way to stall him. He's been sleeping in our bed next to me - but with pjs on of course.

So, here are my questions:

1) When and how do I confront him with the knowledge of his affair?

2) Do I let him move out? Do I try to stall him? I'm afraid he's going to get ugly and angry if I try to control or manipulate the situation too much.

3) I'm also freaking out because I have no way of supporting myself right now. Continued leaning on him for FS is a major LB...I need to get self sufficient pronto! or there is no chance of reconcilliation.

4) When do I tell everyone? Whom do I tell?

5) Working a solid plan A...it seems to me that his ENs have changed and I don't know any way to reevaluate them at this time without LBing. Should I just try the shotgun approach - meet all 10 needs?

Please help, I think I need to move swiftly. He plans on moving out at the end of the month and even though we'll still be technically married, I don't know how effective my efforts will be.

Thanks in advance.

[ July 30, 2003, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: *LULU* ]

1) When and how do I confront him with the knowledge of his affair?

Immediately. He needs to know that you know and that you are devastated. He also needs to know that you understand there were things you did in the marriage that were not in his best interests and that you are willing to be the wife he's always wanted.

2) Do I let him move out? Do I try to stall him? I'm afraid he's going to get ugly and angry if I try to control or manipulate the situation too much.

I would stall as much as possible. You need time together to show that you can make changes, avoid LBers and meet the needs he'll allow. It's much harder to do that once he's out.

And Plan A is all about manipulating the situation. Do you have Harley's Surviving an Affair? If not... order it now from the Bookstore link above. You need it. Don't rely on the forum for the advice on what to do... come here for support but make SAA your bible.

3) I'm also freaking out because I have no way of supporting myself right now. Continued leaning on him for FS is a major LB...I need to get self sufficient pronto! or there is no chance of reconcilliation.

Why is leaning on him for FS a LBer? So he doesn't like it, that doesn't make it a lber... it makes it a fact of marriage. Although I do agree a job is in order. But it has to be one that will be compatible with meeting needs and spending time together.... even if he says he doesn't want that... you need to make it possible.

4) When do I tell everyone? Whom do I tell?

Immediately. Everyone. Family, friends, church family. Tell them he is having an A, you are devastated, you want to save the marriage and any support or help they are willing to give you is welcome.

5) Working a solid plan A...it seems to me that his ENs have changed and I don't know any way to reevaluate them at this time without LBing. Should I just try the shotgun approach - meet all 10 needs?

Plan A is not just about meeting needs. It is a strategy to end an affair. So first you need to eliminate LBers.... demands, disrespect, angry outbursts, independent behavior (this needs to be talked about when there is infidelity, there are independent things you NEED to do), annoying habits and very importantly... dishonesty.

Then you look at meeting the needs he'll allow. I would go for the generic top male needs unless you have a good inkling of something else.... and don't force it. Most BS's don't want you to meet needs.... it has to be subtle.

And Plan A includes exposing and confronting. They are at least half if not 2/3 of what Plan A is all about.

Please help, I think I need to move swiftly. He plans on moving out at the end of the month and even though we'll still be technically married, I don't know how effective my efforts will be.

Don't forget to tell her husband. That should be your first call. And I would confront her. Let her know you know.... be courteous and calm.... but let her know that you know and that you want to save your marriage.

It takes an incredible amount of courage and out of character action to do what it takes to end an affair and get to recovery. You are very lucky in that you can do it right from the beginning and not have bumbled around for months or years first.

I would also suggest calling Dr. Harley's radio show. Mondays and Thursdays 1pm CT 1-888-332-5169 Call a little before 1 so you are sure to get in.

Good luck!!

C

[ October 12, 2003, 11:47 AM: Message edited by: *LULU* ]

Lulu welcome to Marriage Builders and I am so sorry that you find yourself in this gut wrenching situation that nobody should find her/himself in, and I hope you realize that you have a huge group of people (BS AND WS) that will support you and will give you advice on helping you to constructively deal with this emotional upheaval.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />1) When and how do I confront him with the knowledge of his affair?<hr /></blockquote>I cannot stress enough how important it is for you to be, as much as possible, in total control of your emotions. So as soon as you are able to calmly, quietly and respectfully reveal to him the truth about his A(affair) without resorting to love busters (angry outbursts, selfish demands, and disrespectful judgements) then do so. But be aware that he will probably be angry at you for 'invading' his privacy, and try to goad you to emotionally blast him to justify his behavior, so avoid being sucked into an argument with him.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />2) Do I let him move out? Do I try to stall him? I'm afraid he's going to get ugly and angry if I try to control or manipulate the situation too much.<hr /></blockquote>You can't prevent him from moving out if he wants to, and if you try to do so it will only make him want to do so even more. So resist the temptation to beg him to stay, and instead try to point out to him the economic advantages to stay put for a while.

Your fear can be your worst enemy because it can sabotage all your well thought out, hard earned and constructive efforts to save your marriage. You may not realize this but he is probably just as fearful, if not more so, than you otherwise he would have left already and he would not insist on wanting to be friends with you after a divorce.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />3) I'm also freaking out because I have no way of supporting myself right now. Continued leaning on him for FS is a major LB...I need to get self sufficient pronto! or there is no chance of reconcilliation.<hr /></blockquote>Do you have close relatives that you could move with until you become self sufficient? If you do, then I would advice you to seek them out and explain your situation. There is a good chance that they may open their doors to you while you get back on your feet.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />4) When do I tell everyone? Whom do I tell?<hr /></blockquote>If your H refuses to end the A(affair) and send a letter of no contact to the OW(other woman), then you contact the OW's H(husband) and inform him about the A. You should also contact all your mutual friends and relatives and tell them about the A. This is so vital because the vast majority of A's die (not immediately) after they become exposed to the rest of the world.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />5) Working a solid plan A...it seems to me that his ENs have changed and I don't know any way to reevaluate them at this time without LBing. Should I just try the shotgun approach - meet all 10 needs?<hr /></blockquote>Please read the following from Dr Willard Harley about Plan A and especially those words in bold:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />"Since one of these causes is usually unfulfilled emotional needs, the betrayed spouse should express a willingness to meet those needs after the affair has ended."<hr /></blockquote>Many BS's beleive that they can't do a good Plan A unless they meet the WS's EN's but this is a faulty beleif because it assumes that the WS will ALLOW the BS to do so, when reality points that a WS (still having an A )is highly unlikely to allow the BS to meet ANY of the EN's that the OP is meeting. Of course there are other EN's like SF(sexual fulfillment) and FS(financial support) that the WS MAY allow the BS to fulfill except the top one which are the ones being fulfilled by the OP. Should you fulfill his EN for sex? It depends on whether you are able to do so without love busters and without adding to the emotional damage that has already been done to you.

But unfulfilled EN's are NOT the only cause of an A because Dr Harley also says the other causes affairs can be:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />"The betrayed spouse's inconsiderate behavior sometimes leads the wayward spouse to believe that he or she has the right to return thoughtlessness with thoughtlessness by having an affair.<hr /></blockquote>AND

<blockquote>quote:<hr />"A third possible cause of an affair is a lifestyle where spouses spend much of their leisure time apart from each other, and form leisure-time friendships with those of the opposite sex."<hr /></blockquote>So it is possible for you to have met ALL of our WH's top EN's and for him to still have an A.

The important things to keep in mind when you are in Plan A are the following:

1. Avoid ALL love busters: Angry Outbursts, Selfish Demands, Disrespectful Judgements, Dishonesty, Independent Behavior, and Annoying Habits.

2. If your WS does not want to end the A and end all contact with the OP foreverl, then you MUST tell those closest to both of you about the A.

3. Be willing to meet EN's like SF and FS but only if they do not cause you to love bust.

4. Be willing to go to Plan B if after a time of being in Plan A (average 3 months for women, 6 months for men) your WS in unwilling to decide to end the A or end the M(marriage). Many BS's stay too long in Plan A and end up losing all love for the WS and they go straight to divorce instead of Plan B.

Another important thing that I strongly suggest you consider is to go see your doctor and him/her prescribe you anti-depressants. Don't scoff at this suggestion because even Dr Harley suggests it because of the great emotional turmoil that grips the majority of BS's which makes it extremely difficult to carry out a well thought out plan of saving their marriages. Anti-depressants will help you regain control of your emotions so that they will not control your actions and sabotage any of your hard earned, well thought out plans to save your marriage. I took them and they did wonders for me and I highly recommend that you do so as well.

And last but definitely not least, is for you to seek counseling with a pro-marriage professional like Steve Harley or Penny Tupy (cerri, founder of Save Your Marriage Central to guide you in formulating a plan to save your marriage.

You are not alone, all of us are here to help one another and that includes you.

[ July 29, 2003, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]

CoffeeMan and Lulu...

Yes, yes, yes and yes. The only adjustment I would make is .... no.... not even adjustment.... corrolary is a better word...... is that SAA hasn't been updated since it was written and Harley himself is adjusting some of his methodology for dealing with infidelity....

So it's important to note that the exposing of the affair should be immediate. And by that I mean once you confront him (calmly and respectfully as CoffeeMan pointed out) if he doesn't agree then and there to end the A and all contact with her (and to be accountable for that promise) then you need to move to exposure.

Your husband will do all that he can to make you out to be the bad guy. It will be your fault, he'll tell you that the M was over long before he met her, that nothing you say or do will make a difference, and possibly that he never loved you in the first place. Lulu.... you MUST turn a deaf ear to all of that. It's the infidelity brain cloud, it's not real. It's the addiction talking.... the addiction's way of protecting the source and keeping you from taking action that could endanger the fantasy and stability of the affair.

I see soooo many people, women especially, get sucked into the line the WS feeds them that they procrastinate far too long on taking the crucial steps needed. If you are to be successful you must close your ears to your instincts and intuition and follow the process as Harley lays it out.

C

[ October 12, 2003, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: *LULU* ]

[ October 12, 2003, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: *LULU* ]

Lulu please read Cerri's wise words and etch them in your mind:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Cerri:

"Your husband will do all that he can to make you out to be the bad guy. It will be your fault, he'll tell you that the M was over long before he met her, that nothing you say or do will make a difference, and possibly that he never loved you in the first place. Lulu.... you MUST turn a deaf ear to all of that. It's the infidelity brain cloud, it's not real. It's the addiction talking.... the addiction's way of protecting the source and keeping you from taking action that could endanger the fantasy and stability of the affair.

I see soooo many people, women especially, get sucked into the line the WS feeds them that they procrastinate far too long on taking the crucial steps needed. If you are to be successful you must close your ears to your instincts and intuition and follow the process as Harley lays it out."<hr /></blockquote>Cerri's words are the key to the efficacy of your Plan A.

Keep in mind that there are no guarantees that even with the best Plan A and Plan B that your marriage will be saved BUT if you follow Dr Harley's principles and Cerri's advice you can rest assured that you did everything possible to save your marriage.

There are two recoveries, marital and personal, and while it may not be possible to have a marital recovery it is very possible and very likely to have personal recovery if you follow Plan A and Plan B. The last thing you want is the demons of the past follow you to any relationship in the future, especially marriage.

As far as telling others, she is married. From our conversations, I know that he is very, very concerned that other people will find out. He asks me repeatedly who I have told. But, when he asks this, he is wondering who I have told that we're getting a trial separation...he doesn't know yet that I know about his affair.

Then you need to be ruthless and use this to end the affair. I'm dead serious about turning a deaf ear to the things he is telling you about it being your fault, about moving on, all that.... Worthatry... one of the posters here has a thing about the WS being invaded by an alien presence... use that if it helps you. YOUR HUSBAND IS IN THE CLUTCHES OF AN ADDICTION. The chemistry in the brain is nearly identical and the strategies, denial, rationalizations are exactly the same. You must think of it this way if you are going to be able to do what it takes.

I struggle with the notion that maybe I should let him go. He's so completely unhappy and I am the primary source of that unhappiness.

Don't even go there. You may have done things that were detrimental to the marriage. We all do. He will attempt to convince you that this makes an affair ok. It doesn't. Nothing does. There are ethical ways to approach being unhappy in marriage, infidelity is not one of them. DO NOT BLAME YOURSELF, IT IS NOT YOUR FAULT.

Maybe I don't deserve to save my marriage and get a second chance with him. Maybe he deserves to start fresh - in a new apartment of his own, with another person.

Alright darlin'.... that's all the pity party you get <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ... Now let's get to work.

Let me tell you what I know. I was the WS a long time ago. I've been the BS. I'm a coach and I specialize in infidelity. I see it day in and day out. I talk to unfaithful partners, betrayed spouses and lovers. Everyone gets hurt when there is an affair. It is not a new fresh start for him. It's a fantasy that he thinks may be a fresh start... it's not. It's the betrayal and destruction of two spouses and two homes. And the ripples of pain that emanate out from this are inconceivable. We'll hold your hand and support your heart, but you need to take the actions... and I know how scary that is.

C

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Lulu:
I just thought of another thing...I'm probably going to have to confront him tonight, if not in the next couple of days.

He's going to know that I was in his email account because I was stupid and forwarded all the emails to my email address. I checked them off as unread, but you can't miss the big green arrow next to them symbolizing "forwarded".

so should i still purchase SAA even though it is being updated?<hr /></blockquote>So he knows. He'll be mad. He'll yell and scream. He'll make you out to be the bad guy who invaded his privacy. Bummer for him.... he'll get over it.

What do you mean should you order SAA....you mean you haven't yet???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> Get thee to the bookstore, woman.... time's a wastin'!

[ October 12, 2003, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: *LULU* ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />"What do I do? How should I confront him? I need steps...I can't get SAA here by tonight. I need emergency triage here. How should I be ruthless with the knowledge that he's afraid everyone will know? He's counting on me to be too ashamed to tell anyone. Do I tell it by email? Do I call her and confront her? Do I do these things before or after I confront him?"<hr /></blockquote>Why not practice with us as though we were your WH? This way we can critique your delivery and help you become ready when you do confront him.

[ October 12, 2003, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: *LULU* ]

First things first.... did you read the link I gave you about hazardous therapy? You need to be prepared for that. Most counselors are NOT trained to save your marriage... they are trained to help you cope with the break up....

Here's my list of things to ask:

What is your goal? (Should be to save the marriage.)

Do you have a plan for attaining that goal?

What is the plan? (Should be able to spell it out step by step, should be solution/action oriented and not just talking to see where that brings you.)

What are your qualifications for saving marriages? How does that differ from work that you do with individuals and non marital issues?

How do you define recovery in marriage? (Should be restoration of the feelings of romantic love and the ability to make decisions that are good for both partners.)

What is your success rate? How many of the couples that came to you for help in the last year have restored their marriage, or are actively in the process of doing so? (Most conventional therapists save about 20% of the marriages that come to them for help. Their goal is usually to help couples cope with divorce, not save the marriage.)

If you know that one spouse is keeping a secret that is detrimental to the health of the marriage what position do you take? (Financial issues, addictions, infidelity, health issues…)

What kinds of assignments do you give couples to do between sessions? (This is part of the plan that should be outlined above, but it can give you a deeper insight into the process your coach or counselor will use.)

What kinds of things do you do to keep couples motivated and moving forward?
How do you measure progress?

If my goal is unequivocally to save my marriage, do you think you are the one to help us do so? Why?

When do you recommend divorce as the best option? (Should be rarely as in cases of serial infidelity, addiction or abuse, and only after all options have been exhausted, including a Save Your Marriage Separation.)

Leaving here today, what are some things that you suggest we can do to begin restoring our marriage?

YOU SHOULD ASK THESE QUESTIONS REGARDLESS OF THE PERSON’S EDUCATION, TITLE, REPUTATION OR NAME. IT’S YOUR MARRIAGE, TREAT IT WITH CARE!
copyright 2002 Penny R. Tupy ~ Save Your Marriage Central
~~~~~~

Ok... then about confronting him....yes practice here. I usually have clients give me a list of the points they want to cover so we can talk about it ahead of time. Do that.... begin with what you know and how you know it and then move on to how you feel and what you would like.

C

[ October 12, 2003, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: *LULU* ]

You can't go to Dr. Harley himself. He no longer takes clients. If you go through MB you get one of his children Steve Harley or Jennifer Harley Chalmers. Neither of them uses Dr. Harley's concepts and methodologies 100% especially when it comes to taking a stand to end an affair.

And yes, no MC is far better than bad MC.... as you can see by the outcome of the counseling your husband got.

Did you read the Q/A here on unconditional love? Hang on..... I'll find the link....

here it is... Unconditional love ruins marriage....

I'm curious... you've been a member since 99.... what was happening then that you found MB and joined as a forum member?

[ October 12, 2003, 11:26 AM: Message edited by: *LULU* ]

lulu,

Just had a second between blowing up the balloons and icing the cake. I wanted to just say that you are very fortunate to have this level of help right at the beginning of this crisis. All those months you visited here learning these concepts and understanding this material (but not really needing it) will serve you very well now that you need to apply them. Unlike a new poster, this isn't alien to you. Not only that, but I know you are a great listener and that you are action oriented. Not everyone is prepared to use these concepts to their advantage.....but I honestly believe you are.

Many of these things I already told you, but the additions are vital and important. Acting quickly and thoughtfully has the most likelihood of killing this thing before it picks up steam. So many people delay, not wanting to upset the applecart, fearing the spouse will walk out, and those delays fuel the affair and only make recovery and NC more difficult.

Don't be surprised if you MC doesn't agree with all of this advice. If they aren't pro-active marriage savers, or are very traditional they will NOT agree with all of this.....they may caution you not to expose or confront. Make up your own mind. Look logically at what these plans do.....because the they make sense.

TMCM and cerri thank you so much for continuing to help lulu. She is a long time member here who has never faced this kind of marriage crisis before. But she is no wilting violet that won't listen and act. She isn't interested in simpling getting comfort....I know she will follow through.

You are in my thoughts lu. I'll try to check in when I get a second here and there....but you are in the best of hands.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Lulu:
Okay. Points I want to cover when I confront him.

Dear WS:
I need to talk with you about our situation. I understand from what you have told me - that you are very sad.

I haven't been the best wife for you in recent years and I am very, very sorry for that. I know that my neglect of your needs, my lack of dependability, and my annoying habits have caused you to develop a deep resentment of me. I feel terrible that I have caused you this much pain, and I would like to make amends and be the best wife for you.

However, I know that there is another woman in your life. I know that you are lovers. I know her name, where she lives, and that she is married.

I am crushed by this betrayal. You are the only man I have ever truly loved. I continue to deeply love you, and that is why this affair hurts me so badly. If I no longer loved you, all I would feel is apathy about your affair. Instead, I feel deep, gut wrenching pain and sorrow.

I would like you to end the affair immediately. I would like for you to cease all contact with her now. We were once very much in love, and I have full confidence that we can regain our passion and love for each other. I want nothing more than to save our marriage and rebuild your love and faith in me. I want to be the one that you turn to in times of need or of pain. I want to be your rock.

Please let her go so that she can mend her own marriage and please join me in rebuilding ours.
___________________________________

how's that? too dramatic? too emotional?<hr /></blockquote>Nope, it's good. I would only change where you say you would like to make amends and be the wife he wants to I am determined to.... it's a matter of intention and force.

CoffeeMan? Thoughts? - C

lulu,

I really like you letter. One thing I always said to my husband that seemed to help and I'd like to add it to something that addresses the inability of the "fogman" to believe in the possibility....would go like this:

Please try to put aside any skepticism you may feel about rebuilding this marriage and remember one thing: We have a lifetime to divorce each other, but we have a very short window of opportunity to save our marriage. It is the right thing to try. It is the right thing to deal with one relationship at a time. I know you are an honorable man and that the duplicity of this must be weighing heavily upon you.

I will leave it to you and cerri and TMCM to decide whether this is a valuable addition to your excellent letter.

Later....sorry.

[ October 12, 2003, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: *LULU* ]

Lulu-

I agree this is the best thing for your WS to hear. Certainly better than my WW hearing me cry and sob after learning about her A with OM1.

C-
Am I being too picky or wouldn't it be better for Lulu to tell her WH that she (or the marriage?) NEEDS him to end his A immediately and that she (or the marriage) NEEDS him to commit to NC rather than using the phrase, "WOULD LIKE YOU TO"? Does the word 'NEEDS' sound too much like a demand?

Should Lulu tell the WH these things or give him the letter before or after her appointment with the MC?

Also, there is nothing about consequences in this letter if the A does not end. I mean, it almost sounds like a Plan B letter except for the consequences, like no contact with Lulu until the A ends. Is it too early for this sort of language?

HoFS

Yep, really like the part about appealing to his honor. Put that in the place where you ask him to end it with her and respect both your marriage and hers.

Hi Star!!! <smiling and waving> What's the party for??

[ October 12, 2003, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: *LULU* ]

C-

There you go....talking over me when I'm trying to post. Geesh. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

HoFS

Hi Hoffs,

C-
Am I being too picky or wouldn't it be better for Lulu to tell her WH that she (or the marriage?) NEEDS him to end his A immediately and that she (or the marriage) NEEDS him to commit to NC rather than using the phrase, "WOULD LIKE YOU TO"? Does the word 'NEEDS' sound too much like a demand?

Yeah it smacks of demand. And as much as we all know it's the right thing and the honorable thing to do she still can't demand.... she needs to ask.

Should Lulu tell the WH these things or give him the letter before or after her appointment with the MC?

Well, being the confrontational sort that I am.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I think before. That way the MC can't convince her to procrastinate.

Also, there is nothing about consequences in this letter if the A does not end. I mean, it almost sounds like a Plan B letter except for the consequences, like no contact with Lulu until the A ends. Is it too early for this sort of language?

She can't threaten.... that also turns it into a demand. She needs to let him know what she knows, how she knows and how she feels. Then she needs to ask for what she wants, with a statement about her willingness to make changes. Honesty and an attempt to negotiate. Those are the first steps in any marital problem.

If that doesn't work she moves on to exposure (without threatening.... just do it) and then to Plan B.

Now.... ahem...... <raised eyebrows> any news???

C

Lulu: As for your H saying he is/was miserable and your marriage is dead, according to you in: I am Completely and Officially Weirded Out he said you were his "soul mate" just two months ago. To refresh you memory, your H told someone who was pursuing him: <blockquote>quote:<hr /> ...his heart belonged to me, and me alone...he actually expanded on that theme quite a bit. I just gave the condensed version. To sum up, he basically said that he is the man he is today because of me, and that should they have gotten together years ago that he would be different. He said something else about how he and I have been through hell and back, with several vacations in purgatory for good measure and that I'm his soulmate and that he belongs to me. There was some other mushy stuff in there that brought tears to my eyes...you get the idea. He laid it on thick...that's why she's backpedaling furiously.<hr /></blockquote>Contrast that with what he is saying now: <blockquote>quote:<hr /> he has resented me from the very beginning of our marriage <hr /></blockquote>It makes no sense. That is why so many people like the "Space Aliens invaded his (or her) Brain" idea. What he is saying now is a severe distortion of reality.

OTOH, speaking of distortions of reality, I am confused. You said in the same thread: <blockquote>quote:<hr /> We do have a wonderful and strong marriage. I guess we could be considered the poster children for what could go terribly right when a couple reads Harley's books in the first year of marriage. We've been married almost a decade and haven't had our union tarnished by infidelity <hr /></blockquote>Yet, you did not spend anything near 15/hours per week together, you saw no problem with him having close female friends, and you ignored advice (which is exactly what Harley would have said) that he end all contact with a "friend" that was pursuing him. It sounds like you were picking some of Harley's ideas and using them, but ignoring the rest. His books are actually pretty terse. There isn't anything in there you can afford to ignore. The same is true of C's advice.

[ July 29, 2003, 02:24 PM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Lulu:
should I give this to him as a letter? or should I just try to stick with it and say it from memory?<hr /></blockquote>I think you should do it as a conversation. He needs to see how much this hurts you and hear you say it to his face. It's more difficult, certainly, but it has more impact as well.

Write yourself some one sentence notes if you have to. Tell him you are so devastated that you want to make sure you get it right.... that you have reminders to be considerate and caring.

C (ever notice, I like words that start with "C"??? considerate, caring, courteous, confront..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

John!! Long time no see...... and now that I have your attention...... maybe you could pop on over to one of the three bonfire threads and let your intentions be known????.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

You are right that it really doesn't work to pick and choose which of the concepts to follow. I guess we all learn that the hard way.... still today I find new depths to the knowledge and understanding I have. This recovery stuff is darn hard work. Always something waiting to bite you in the butt.

C

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by cerri:

Now.... ahem...... <raised eyebrows> any news???

C<hr /></blockquote>I think you'd notice a disturbance in the space/time continuum if I had heard anything....one way or another. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I still think that "would like you to" implies a demand. There isn't much of the classic, "I feel ______ when you ________." in that phrase either. I guess one just needs to come across as a little softer.

Lulu-

I think you should give your WH a letter rather than relying on doing it from memory. I've tried this and I usually ended up straying from the script. Also, I think you should give it to him and not leave until he has finished reading it. Wait to get an immediate response. See what he has to say. Of course when I did this to my WW, she denied everything and demanded to see the proof I had. Be ready for your WH to do the same thing. If your WH denies the A until you show him the proof, then well, I think you should be ready to show him the evidence but truth be told, he really doesn't need to see the proof. He just wants to make sure that you aren't on a wild goose chase.

HoFS

[ July 29, 2003, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: HofFenceSitter ]

I also want to remind you that when you are ready to confront your H, to be well prepared with your script because he IS an aspiring actor and he more than anybody will be able to spot whether your words are real or you are just reading from a script. So practice your delivery before you present it to him.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by HofFenceSitter:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by cerri:

Now.... ahem...... <raised eyebrows> any news???

C<hr /></blockquote>I think you'd notice a disturbance in the space/time continuum if I had heard anything....one way or another. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I still think that "would like you to" implies a demand. There isn't much of the classic, "I feel ______ when you ________." in that phrase either. I guess one just needs to come across as a little softer.

Lulu-

I think you should give your WH a letter rather than relying on doing it from memory. I've tried this an I usually ended up straying from the script. Also, I think you should give it to him and not leave until he has finished reading it. Wait to get an immediate response. See what he has to say. Of course when I did this to my WW, she denied everything and demanded to see the proof I had. Be ready for your WH to do the same thing. If your WH denies the A until you show him the proof, then well, I think you should be ready to show him the evidence but truth be told, he really doesn't need to see the proof. He just wants to make sure that you aren't on a wild goose chase.

HoFS<hr /></blockquote>Yeah, I thought I would have heard if you knew anything, but I wanted to make sure. I'd hate to have you tell me 3 weeks from now and then say... well you never asked..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Mmmmmmm see it's a matter of how different words affect you. If someone says to me... we need to do something.... my hackles go up. It sounds like I have no choice.

OTOH if someone says I'd like you to do something.... it feels like a request. It's what the other person would want, but there is no threat or coercion... just a statement of what they would like.

I guess Lulu can do it either in person or in letter. I like in person for the reasons I said above.... he should hear it from her lips.

Also, I think she should be upfront about how she knows. Honesty isn't negotiable. "I suspected and I looked at your email."

As I said.... he'll have a hissy. Let him. The planet will continue to turn and he'll get over it.

C

[ October 12, 2003, 11:29 AM: Message edited by: *LULU* ]

Thank God there's still enough for me to sit on.

Well then.... you might be in better shape than some of us ... some days... LOL

okay. so i need to confront him and get his immediate reaction. I'm on board with that. Now, do I do it in a letter or in person? I have 1 vote apiece.

So, if I sign in under my other names and vote do they count???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Next, I only tell everyone if he refuses to end contact, right? Does confronting the OW get done anyway, or is she included with tell everyone?

Really, it's a moot point... because I would be shocked if he meekly agreed to end it. But there are differing schools of thought on this. Bill Harley says tell... expose... put it on the evening news. Steve and Jenn are way more conservative and things have to drag on for a long time before they suggest exposure. I say give him a one day running start, give him 24 hours to make good on any promises to end all contact and send a n/c letter and then go for it.

She, OTOH, needs to be confronted regardless. She needs to know you know and you need to introduce that kind of conflict into their little fantasy world. You want their next conversation to be about "OMG what are we going to do she knows.... what will she do.... who else will she tell....??" rather than their usual lovey dovey aren't we a wonderful couple <gag me> fantasy bubble.

C

[ October 12, 2003, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: *LULU* ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Now, do I do it in a letter or in person? I have 1 vote apiece.<hr /></blockquote>In person.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Next, I only tell everyone if he refuses to end contact, right?<hr /></blockquote>Yes.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Does confronting the OW get done anyway, or is she included with tell everyone?<hr /></blockquote>Yes confront the OW anyway but do so in a letter because personal confrontation between the BS and OP has the potential to become an explosive and dangerous situation. You want to be respectful in your letter to the OW because you want to appeal to her sense of justice (if there is one) while at the same time firmly letting her know that any knowledge of further contact with your WH will find itself back to her BH.

[ October 12, 2003, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: *LULU* ]

[ October 12, 2003, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: *LULU* ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />do i confront her before him or after?
<hr /></blockquote>Preferably just before you confront him.

One more thing, is to let her know that you have already confronted him with your knowledge of the A. I know it's a lie but she is one person that you do not have an obligation to be honest with.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> C wrote: This recovery stuff is darn hard work. Always something waiting to bite you in the butt. <hr /></blockquote>Tell me about it. I'm not sure I'm READY to write the second half of that recovery piece. We seem kinda stuck. Not completely, but further progress seems to be at a creep, with the same issues coming up repeatedly. I get kinda discouraged at times. That said, we are a in a lot bettr place than any time I can remember pre-A, so maybe I have unrealistic expectations. Whether realistic or not, I seem to have a knack for transmitting the message: "You can do better" in such a way that it sounds like: "You are inadequate". Well, awareness is the first step.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />does email count as a letter?<hr /></blockquote>Send both.

Yes, email counts as a letter. Just be prepared for the backlash that you'll probably get. Don't engage, just delete.

And I agree on the exposure.... give him 6 hours then to make good on any promises. If he blows you off then expose immediately.

Ok, I'm not voting a second time Lulu <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> but let me clarify. I think you need to hand him the letter and tell him face-to-face, in your own words, what you need to tell him. That way, he's got a copy of the letter and you've got a duplicate of the main points you are trying to pound into him!

I'm not sure confronting the OW is what you want to do at this point or even expose the A. You need (oh-oh, a demand C?) to see how your WH reacts to what you have to say to him. If he is going to make amends and end the A, then you need to see the letter and put it in the mailbox yourself as well as have access to all of his e-mail. If your WH denies everything or gets wishy-washy, then you expose the A.

I'm not really sure confronting the OW is a good idea. Sometimes, the WS runs to the aid of the OP when they are under attack (like when being confronted by a BS).

Get legal advice on the 401k.

HoFS

Hi cerri!!! It's my little man's birthday....he's 6. Just finished putting the finishing touches on his new bicycle. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

John.....you are just right. Inspite of the fact that lulu has been here, she never really believed that much of this stuff applied to her. She enjoyed the comradery of the board, made friends and was secretly thankful that her marriage was better off than so many here. If a lightning bolt had hit her she wouldn't have been more surprised. It's so darn easy to miss the signs when honesty leaves the marriage, and like so many....by the time we "get it" we are in deep doo doo. The phrase that comes to mind is "how could this happen???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> ". I sure wish we had a higher success rate with folks who could prevent this heartache.

For right now, I'm glad that even if she wasn't applying this stuff, she at least knows and understands the process.....because she sure needs it. It's probably pretty humbling for her to need it....but I am happy that she has put that aside and is here and listening. She's a smart girl....very smart....but like so many of us has found out that we are all fallable. I'm happy she is talking so honestly and proactively now. And I really do think you can save this marriage lulu. Stay strong, calm, focused and open.

Good Luck tonight. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Ok, I'm not voting a second time Lulu <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> but let me clarify. I think you need to hand him the letter and tell him face-to-face, in your own words, what you need to tell him. That way, he's got a copy of the letter and you've got a duplicate of the main points you are trying to pound into him!

Yeah, I like that. Then he can refer back to it later when the shock wears off and he can't remember what you said

I'm not sure confronting the OW is what you want to do at this point or even expose the A.

Sorry Hoffs.... but that's directly contradictory to what Bill Harley says, and I'm stickin' with him. Confront and expose asap. Plan A is about ending the A by simultaneously eliminating lbers, expressing a willingness to meet needs, confronting, and exposing.

You need (oh-oh, a demand C?) to see how your WH reacts to what you have to say to him. If he is going to make amends and end the A, then you need to see the letter and put it in the mailbox yourself as well as have access to all of his e-mail. If your WH denies everything or gets wishy-washy, then you expose the A.

I'd be ok with that on exposing.... to a certain extent... he'd have to agree to that and follow through immediately.... but not on confronting the OW.

I'm not really sure confronting the OW is a good idea. Sometimes, the WS runs to the aid of the OP when they are under attack (like when being confronted by a BS).

Yep, and I'm perfectly fine with that. As I said above it introduces a nasty little conflict into the R. It's no longer fun and games and a wonderful little lovey secret.... it's now a source of conflict and hurt. Let them run to each other.... the more time they spend together discussing something unpleasant (like the fact that their spouses know) the more love units are withdrawn.

BTW.... you need to contact her husband too.

Get legal advice on the 401k.

I wouldn't. Not yet. Ignore his offer to do that. Keep legal interference out of it until you are forced to go there. It muddies the water and creates an adversarial position that is very difficult to get out of.

You have plenty of time to decide on property. Right now, let's work on ending the A.

C

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by star*fish:
Hi cerri!!! It's my little man's birthday....he's 6. Just finished putting the finishing touches on his new bicycle. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

John.....you are just right. Inspite of the fact that lulu has been here, she never really believed that much of this stuff applied to her. She enjoyed the comradery of the board, made friends and was secretly thankful that her marriage was better off than so many here. If a lightning bolt had hit her she wouldn't have been more surprised. It's so darn easy to miss the signs when honesty leaves the marriage, and like so many....by the time we "get it" we are in deep doo doo. The phrase that comes to mind is "how could this happen???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> ". I sure wish we had a higher success rate with folks who could prevent this heartache.

For right now, I'm glad that even if she wasn't applying this stuff, she at least knows and understands the process.....because she sure needs it. It's probably pretty humbling for her to need it....but I am happy that she has put that aside and is here and listening. She's a smart girl....very smart....but like so many of us has found out that we are all fallable. I'm happy she is talking so honestly and proactively now. And I really do think you can save this marriage lulu. Stay strong, calm, focused and open.

Good Luck tonight. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Boy if that isn't the truth!! When I first came to MB, before there was a forum and then afterwards.... I read all the stuff on control and abuse and anger. I would see the infidelity info and think...."Gee, I'm so glad we don't have THAT problem."

Live and learn..... it happens to all of us on some level.

John..... let's talk elsewhere about recovery if you like..... my thread? I don't want to hijack this one. If you think I can offer anything, fill me in on where you've kinda stalled and what you'd like to see happen. I'm sure we can brainstorm some stuff.

We've (I've <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) made great strides this summer. Star was a big help with some things and other things needed to ferment in my little brain for a while.

My Sept. NL is Conversation and Romance, I have some cool ideas.

C

Lulu please do consult a lawyer. California is a no fault community property state. There can be serious financial consequences for you if your H moves out w/o a legal separation agreement in place. In a community property state unless there is a legal separation agreement in place or a divorce petition has been filed you will be held financially responsible for any debts that he incurs. On the plus side you may qualify for spousal support since you are unemployed and you have been married 10 years. As far as him cashing out his 401K in CA 1/2 of that is yours already and there are tax consequences to cashing out a 401 K for which you could be held responsible.

I hope things work out for you. I know you don't want to rock the boat by seeking out a lawyer but you really need to protect yourself esp in California because of the commnity property laws.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by cerri:
[b].... Confront......

C<hr /></blockquote>Another 'C' word!!!!! And a favorite.

Not that I was disagreeing with Willard but what I meant was, no need to confront the OW until Lulu tells her WH what she knows. Then, Lulu's WH better tell the OW that the A is over and that Lulu knows all about it. If the WH doesn't end the A, then of course, Lulu should let the OW know she knows about the A and that Lulu wants to save her own marriage. Better?

HoFS

[ July 30, 2003, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: *LULU* ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Lulu:
Okay, let me write out a list of "events" for this evening to make sure i'm doing everything right:

1) Write the letter with the editions (i'll post the letter again before i print it out)

2) Call WH and schedule him to meet me a minimum of an hour before my meeting with the counselor

3) Call OW's husband (if I can get his phone number and be sure it is him) and expose

4) Prepare email to OW and send only when WH arrives to pick me up

5)go to a private area and give him the letter. I will also say what is on my mind and prepare for his response

6) Go to the marriage counselor armed with cerri's questions.

7) WH picks me up from marriage counselor

8) starting tomorrow, reveal, expose, tell everybody!<hr /></blockquote>You're good!!! And remember to take care of you.... this is horribly emotionally draining and difficult. Be sure to remember to eat and to destress if you can. Also, is there a real live shoulder you can cry on if you need? Same sex and an advocate of your marriage, of course.

Lulu,

I am so so sorry that you are going through this. It is very tough.

Now, I realize that I've never had an affair to deal with in my M, but I did have a time when my H was so withdrawn he wasn't interested in me meeting his needs. Your H is in the middle of an affair, so to him Affection and SF will feel like cheating on HER - yes, the OW. I know it hurts and it shouldn't be that way...it goes against everything that we believe in our marriage...but it's true.

What did I do at first? Hit the EN that means a lot and doesn't throw up flags (and least not as high) - RC! Recreational Companionship is a great way to meet ENs under the 'radar' of a reluctant spouse. It is a time to be cheery, laugh, etc. It can also be time to meet some of the Conversation need. Keep it light and simple so that it feels good.

Your biggest instinct right now will be to discuss where your relationship is headed. I advise you to minimize that type of conversation and to never intersperse it with the RC. Keep it fun.

I'm reading the rest of your situation as well, I just wanted to let you know that I care.

Hugs,
Tak

Ok, now I'm adding my addendums:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />You want their next conversation to be about "OMG what are we going to do she knows.... what will she do.... who else will she tell....??" rather than their usual lovey dovey aren't we a wonderful couple <gag me> fantasy bubble. <hr /></blockquote>This was posted by Cerri, and I couldn't agree more. The fact that it is secret keeps this relationship from experiencing much stress. Exposing it to as many people as soon as possible puts stress on this relationship. The more stress that this relationship feels, the better, IMHO. They will place more expectations on each other, they will develop shorter fuses with each other... IMHO, there is never too much stress on an A. The more stress introduced (WHILE AVOIDING LBs, especially lying on your part - always have to stress that. You will have the odd person who thinks that they can add so much more stress by passing around a few lies and such, and it will only bite you in your @ss...) the better.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Your husband will do all that he can to make you out to be the bad guy...It's the infidelity brain cloud, it's not real. <hr /></blockquote>There is a lot that will go on. It won't just be your H. It will be family, friends, OW, co-workers...anyone who finds out about your situation will try to feed you a heaping helping of their not-so-humble opinion. It happened to me. You have to turn a blind eye and deaf ear to IT ALL. Come up with a good plan based on Harley's principles and stick to your plan. Do not get on the rollercoaster.

Remember that everyone you know has an agenda of some sort. NONE of those agendas have your marriage as the top priority, so stick to your own agenda and ignore what they say.

My family jumped on the 'leave him - he's scum' bandwagon. Others jumped on the 'make him move back' bandwagon. His family jumped on the 'she never took care of you' bandwagon. Do NOT listen. This stuff can tear you up inside, and the damage is already sufficient enough. Stick to your plan.

[ July 29, 2003, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: *Takola* ]

[ October 12, 2003, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: *LULU* ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Lulu:

OMG! What do I do?<hr /></blockquote>Don't panic. Stick to your plan. Ok, so you may have to talk with him more than an hour before your appointment. You know what to say. Radical honesty. You'll have to tell him you've been monitoring his IM because of your suspicisions.

Good luck. I can't check back here any more today. Did I mention don't panic?

HoFS

Follow your plan. The letter is good. Tell him you want to talk to him, just like you planned to do. I'll be around for an hour yet if you need me.

C

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Lulu:

"I would like you to end the affair immediately. I would like for you to cease all further contact with her now. I would like for you to write her a letter, or an email informing her that the affair is over and that you want her to contact you no further under any circumstances."<hr /></blockquote>LOVE BUSTER ALERT! SELFISH DEMAND OVERLOAD!

Consider the following instead:

Dear H if there is any hope for OUR marriage to survive and be rebuilt into the kind that WE dreamed off when WE got married, then WE must agree that the A has to end. If WE are in agreement then I hope that WE can also see the wisdom in writting a letter to the OW respectfully requesting her that she never contacts US again. WE can do no less for OUR marriage and for OURSELVES.

Notice the presence of the word 'WE' and 'US' for it emphasizes UNION between you and him. Please consider adding it to your letter.

Mmmmm.....yes, what CoffeeMan said....

Frankly, I'm ok with the way you have it. But I like the concept of emphasizing "we-ness"

[ October 12, 2003, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: *LULU* ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Lulu:

I have two questions.

1) Is this a good idea for me to tell her husband? Do you think he might flip out and beat her or something? Do you think she might come after me physically?<hr /></blockquote>That is a possibility but just like you are NOT responsible for your WH's actions, YOU ARE NOT responsible of the OW's BH actions. Just because he is a BH that doesn't give him the right to use violence against his WW OR himself. There is NO excuse for violence period.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />2) I'm still searching for his email address...but i do have their phone number. It's not quite 3 pm here and I don't imagine he would be home yet. Should I call? What do I say? What if she answers the phone? Do I make something up?<hr /></blockquote>Yes, call him and tell him your name and the reason why you are calling him. Emphasize that your purpose in contacting him is to give your marriage and perhaps his, a chance to survive the affair AND because, no matter what happens, he deserves the right to know the truth.

[ July 29, 2003, 05:15 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]

[ October 12, 2003, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: *LULU* ]

Yes, absolutely, I think CoffeeDude makes a wonderful point about we-ness. Print it.

Also I think he pretty much covers the bases on what to tell the husband. I would also ask if there is any way you can be of help or support.

Be prepared for him to be angry or to not believe you, did you say you printed copies of the emails or that you have them? If so, offer to send them on if he wants them.

The real key is for him to know that you are going to do everything you can to end the A and to save your marriage. He may already know and may have been fed a line about you knowing and not caring.

Lulu.... I just want to say that if my clients were as proactive and courageous as you my job would be a whole lot easier. I am amazed and impressed with your determination to do some really scary stuff. Many blessings to you my dear..... you are an incredibly strong woman.

C

[ October 12, 2003, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: *LULU* ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Lulu:

"I also need help crafting the email to the OW. What do I say to her? "<hr /></blockquote>How about the following?:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I KNOW you and MY HUSBAND are having an A, I have ALL the evidence to prove it. I can understand how you fell in love with MY HUSBAND (I to am in love with him) BUT your love is NO justification for having an affair with MY HUSBAND. It is WRONG and YOU A MARRIED WOMAN, of all people, SHOULD KNOW IT, and for this reason I respectfully request that you IMMEDIATELY end your relationship with MY HUSBAND FOREVER. Sincerely Lulu. P.S. I'm forwarding ALL information about your affair with MY HUSBAND, to YOUR HUSBAND<hr /></blockquote>Notice the emphasis on 'MY HUSBAND'? It is needed to prove the point that SHE is THE INVADER in your marriage.

[ July 29, 2003, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]

[ October 12, 2003, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: *LULU* ]

I think she needs to add uhhmmmmm..... that she is doing all she can to make her marriage a wonderful place for her husband and that she will do whatever it takes to save her marriage.

And that not only the R end, but that there be no contact of any sort in the future. We don't want to go to the "we're just friends so it's ok to stay in touch," place.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by cerri:
I think she needs to add uhhmmmmm..... that she is doing all she can to make her marriage a wonderful place for her husband and that she will do whatever it takes to save her marriage.

And that not only the R end, but that there be no contact of any sort in the future. We don't want to go to the "we're just friends so it's ok to stay in touch," place.<hr /></blockquote>I mean you need to add it.... I was responding to the amazing CaffeinatedMan at the same time you were posting.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

You are right cerri, Lulu has to include in her e-mail that she is trying to save her marriage. I thought I did cover the possibility of any future contact between her and Lulu's WH with the word FOREVER.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by T00MuchCoffeeMan:
You are right cerri, Lulu has to include in her e-mail that she is trying to save her marriage. I thought I did cover the possibility of any future contact between her and Lulu's WH with the word FOREVER.<hr /></blockquote>Yeah.... I like to spell out what that means.... just cuz the addiction thing is there and it's always looking for away around it.

Ending the relationship forever makes sense to all of us.... but you and I know what WS's and affair partners try to get away with when they are under the influence.

Cerri the 'amazing' caffeinatedman is going to the gym to flush out the excess caffeine from his system otherwise he's going to find himself repeating last weeks disastrous sleepless night. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Lulu be strong and confident for you've got Cerri, Star*fish, yours truly, as well as the rest of the MB gang behind you 100%.

Later ladies.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by T00MuchCoffeeMan:
Cerri the 'amazing' caffeinatedman is going to the gym to flush out the excess caffeine from his system otherwise he's going to find himself repeating last weeks disastrous sleepless night. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Lulu be strong and confident for you've got Cerri, Star*fish, yours truly, as well as the rest of the MB gang behind you 100%.

Later ladies.<hr /></blockquote>Have fun..... stay away from the evil drink for the rest of the night!! I'll be working on some little site updates for a while, so I'll be here a little longer. Darn.... those things take time!

C

[ July 30, 2003, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: *LULU* ]

It's good, I like it. Be sure that you have time to talk to your H before she has a chance to read it and get to him.

[ July 30, 2003, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: *LULU* ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Lulu:
i have one more technical question about contacting OW's H.

Ive called their home twice, and no one is answering the phone. Should I leave a message for the husband? or should i just keep trying until I get through?

I'm not sure what kinds of things I should put in mass email tomorrow to everyone. I'm trying to imagine what I would feel like if a friend or family member sent me an email about their cheating spouse...not sure, hmmm. how that would go down, KWIM?<hr /></blockquote>No, don't leave a message, but do keep trying. Are you blocking your number when you call? *67 to do so.... some places won't let blocked nimbers through, but it's worth a try.

Let's work on the other email tomorrow. If I dont' feed the rabble soon they are likely to rise up and take over!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> LOL

[ October 12, 2003, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: *LULU* ]

It's great lulu....short, clear, deadly. I like it.

I guess it wouldn't be nice to add...."welcome to my world" *bad star* Actually that's mild compared to some of the dastardly phrases I thought of but can't repeat in mixed company...being a southern lady and all *sigh*.

Let us know.

[ October 12, 2003, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: *LULU* ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Here's the weird thing...WH is supposed to be at the gym now. It's 4:30 here and he's supposed to pick me up in 45 minutes.

He's still online at work.

I wonder if he's savvy yet...ugh, all this intrigue.
<hr /></blockquote>If he was checking his email and noticed some had been forwarded, maybe (or maybe not) he is writing more emails to her to discuss you knowing, and what he should do and say. Are you still monitoring the email for new ones since he has been online?

Does he know you visit this site and what your screen name and password are?

[ October 12, 2003, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: *LULU* ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> He's trying to bait me into an argument or a crying bender <hr /></blockquote>Don't fall for it! He will use it to 'justify' <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> what he is doing.

Yeah I know my W visits this site and I know what screen name she visits under. Spying is good it encourages trust!

[ July 30, 2003, 12:04 AM: Message edited by: cold ]

Hello!!

I am so sorry to hear the turn of events. Looks like you got some great help from some great people. Sounds like you are doing as well as can be expected. Right now I don't have any thing to add. It seems that all of the topics have been addressed.

You have not updated here is a bit.. am concerned about how you are doing.

Z,

I talked to her briefly before she went to sleep. She's in shock right now, but doing as well as she can. She's been really blindsided by this, but is holding up. She does seem focused about what she is doing, but it's mechanical right now for her. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Thanks for stopping by.....I'm sure she'll need some help tomorrow, so if you could peek in with your wisdom, I'm sure she would appreciate it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Star,

Thanks for the update. I can only imagine her frame of mind. It hurts to even think of it.

I will check back in in the morning.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by cold:
Yeah I know my W visits this site and I know what screen name she visits under. Spying is good it encourages trust!<hr /></blockquote>Actually, I don't see it as 'spying'--it's considered being totally open and honest in your marriage to have access to all e-mail's and such..

and It's already apparent...trust has been broken in the relationship...by not openly and willingly giving access to these things..

[ October 12, 2003, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: *LULU* ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Yeah I know my W visits this site and I know what screen name she visits under. Spying is good it encourages trust!
<hr /></blockquote>I think spying is good, and I DO believe it inspires trust. Of course, I've only ever heard a WS call it spying.

Trust is earned. Without honesty and openness you have no trust. Trust is built on truth. You should not trust someone unless they repeatedly tell you a verifiable truths. What someone tells you needs verification. Without verifying someone's word, how are you to know that they are telling the truth? Without knowing for certain that they are telling the truth, how does one build trust?

Here are some thoughts from Dr. Harley:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> So one of the most common clues of an affair is an unwillingness to let a spouse investigate all aspects of life...Difficulty in getting a spouse to talk about events of the day can be a sign of trying to hide the second life. <hr /></blockquote> <blockquote>quote:<hr /> One of the most common smoke-screens used by unfaithful spouses is to express shock that their spouse would be so distrusting as to ask questions about their secret second life. They try to make it seem as if such questions are an affront to their dignity, and a sign of incredible disrespect. They figure that the best defense is a good offense, and so they try to make their spouses feel guilty about asking too many questions. <hr /></blockquote> <blockquote>quote:<hr /> I am a firm believer in letting each spouse do as much snooping around as they want. Nothing should be kept secret in marriage, and no questions should be left unanswered. If a spouse objects to such scrutiny, what might he or she be hiding? <hr /></blockquote>Dishonesty is really a method to force your spouse to deal with a situation that you know that they would not deal with. You control their reaction by not letting them know the truth. You can, therefore, force upon them a situation that hurts them because they do not know about it. The dishonest spouse usually justifies this by saying they are protecting the other spouse. 'It would just hurt her'...in reality it is not motivated by protection. If the dishonest spouse were motivated by protection, they would not have done the act (in this case infidelity) that caused the hurt in the first place.

[ July 30, 2003, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: *Takola* ]

LuLu here's something important from Dr Harley that I beleive you should read and give serious consideration:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />"Since plan B (and plan A, for that matter), is extremely stressful for the betrayed spouse, I usually recommend that he or she ask a physician to prescribe anti-depressant medication to be taken throughout the crisis. This not only greatly reduces the suffering of the betrayed spouse, but it also helps keep a clear head at a time when patience and wise decisions are crucial. Anti-depressant medication does not numb the betrayed spouse to the crisis, it actually helps raise him or her above emotional reactions that would otherwise prevent clear-headed thinking. Why suffer and and make poor choices when anti-depressant medication can help ease your pain and improve your concentration in this time of unprecedented crisis? "<hr /></blockquote>You need to take care of your total health (physical,emotional, mental) not only for your sake but for your child's as well, and taking anti-depressants is one way to do that.

Hey Lulu.... just letting you know I'm around. I have to actually do some work today, but I'll check in as I can. Let me know what I can do for you. Hugs, chica.

Cold.... I'm so sorry you find yourself in this place. It's no fun from either side, and unfortunately the only way out is painful no matter how you do it. I won't lecture, I know it's not helpful (I save that for those who ask for it... and then look out <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ) but I do want you to know that my thoughts are with both of you.

C

[ October 12, 2003, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: *LULU* ]

[ October 12, 2003, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: *LULU* ]

I am so sorry that this is happening to you. I've been there, it feels awful. My H and I were separated a couple of different times. The first time was for 4 months. His A lasted on and off for 4 yrs. It finally ran it's course ending in mid-98. Then last year he started an EA that turned PA with another woman. I say all this to let you know even if saving the marriage seems hopeless now, it isn't necessarily over yet. Yes, it could proceed rapidly towards divorce. I would still do all I could to stall separation and divorce if I were you. Follow all the great advice you've been given here. Have you reached the OW's H yet? When I told our OW's H he was out of state hunting. I called his cell phone when he was in a tree. He came home immediately. Unfortunately, he threw in the towel too soon and went immediately to start divorce proceedings. Do you know if they have children? Do what you can to take care of yourself. I used to drink Ensure type drinks to make sure I got enough nutrients. I had that nauseous feeling for a long time. I also couldn't sleep. It is a hell you wouldn't wish on anyone. It feels like your body is just shutting down to die. It's so awful not to be able to control it. I did go on anti-d's which seemed to help a little bit. It is so good that you have MB early on. I didn't and floundered for quite a while.

Hi Lulu,

I am so sorry for all of your pain right now. I think he is making all of these moves because he is just as confused. He does not want to look like the bad guy, so he is giving everyone the impression that he knows what he is doing. That He is 100% sure. He probably believes it as well, but he does NOT know what he is doing. He has NOT thought anything through.

My advice to you mentally. DO NOT PANIC! Breathe in and out. Breathe in and out. Listen to your breathing, concentrate on that.

What he is doing right now has got NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU. Whatever he says, do not believe him. Whatever he does, do not believe him. HE HAS BEEN INVADED BY AN ALIEN, it is not the person you love and know that is doing these things. BELIEVE ME, BELIEVE ALL OF US.

Now, to the practical stuff. You do need to think. But NOT about him right now. Let him storm around, because he is a storm out of control. You need to think practically only, this will protect you.

I do not live in the States, so others will have to come with suggestions on how to secure your finances. Think BASICS. You need food and you need a roof over your head. At least in my country as long as you are married the WS cannot throw you out of your home. All payments, debts etc both spouses are liable for until you are divorced. If your WH has access to your accounts, or any means of your income, change codes etc. so he cannot get into them, to protect yourself.

Others will advise you here how to do the practical stuff and use your energy on that.

Remember SIGN nothing your WH comes with.

You need food. You need sleep. You need your support network around you. Friends. Family. Your doctor. Tell them now. Ask for help. You have us here, it helps, but LULU you need physical people you can lean on. NOW.

Lulu, you are in the middle of a hurricane. Hold on. The hurricane will pass. Any hurtful things your WH throws at you, TURN A DEAF ear.

Picture yourself like this.

You stand in the middle of your home. Everything around you is flying left and right. People are screaming and shouting at you. Furniture is flying. But you are using all your energy to keep ground. You say to yourself, I WILL NOT ALLOW THIS TO TAKE ME WITH IT. You feel like you are going to give up, but your willpower is stronger.

That willpower will bring you through this. That willpower will tell you, that you need to stretch out an arm to eat and sleep to stand strong. That willpower will tell you to not to allow yourself to use energy on vengeance, but to try to stay as calm, gracious and well posed as possible towards your WS, but allow yourself to break down to people that will support you. That will also help you to stand strong.

I KNOW this is hard. But it will get better. We will help you as much as we can to make it better!

Cyber hugs
-queen-

[ July 31, 2003, 10:26 AM: Message edited by: Zorweb ]

Lulu,welcome to the Forum. Rushed Fool and I live in SF( we met twice since last Saturday and we also had wonderful times) RF told me about you this morning( I have been busy with work therefore I do not get on MB as much as I wish to)and;we wonder if you want to meet up and we can give each other support,we are not doing any better except that we are not alone!So please write to Rushed Fool; notmesf@yahoo.com
or me; wangiaja@yahoo.com, we will then exchange phone numbers and form our little support group,OK.

You are in my prayers. Write us,OK <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

p.s. Zorweb,are you disapponted in me? Please know that I appreciate all your help and I still want to hear from you,OK. Peace. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

[ October 12, 2003, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: *LULU* ]

LuLu it is at times like these that you know who your true friends really are, and those people who chastised you for telling them about your WS's A(affair) are NOT your friends period. Forget those people and concentrate on your plan A.

As far as not having access to the computer, you may want to consider going to your local library and using their computers to access the MB forums.

Hang in there LuLu, we're behind you 100%.

Did you email only close friends and family? Or just about everyone you know. The reactions you are getting sound more like something that would come from aquantances and not true friends.

My questions here are for others who are reading as LuLu has already told everyond.

Additionally, wouldn't this be better done in person, one at a time? I think that it would have a better inpact this way. The idea is not to cause the WS harm but to get some help.

I'm a little bit concerned here. It seems to me that the people who are told about the affair should be picked carefully. Those you can get support from and not everyone in your address book. Most people could care less if a person's spouse is cheating.. remember we live in a society that has almost no moral foundation. And the little we have is slipping away.

Willard Harley's advice is "put it on the evening news."

Yes some will take the position these thoughtless ones are.... but the idea is to expose the affair to scrutiny and to cause conflict in the fantasy.

It certainly has done that hasn't it? H and OW are no longer enjoying a secret life of fun and laughter are they? Now they have to contend with this and it is NOT fun. That will do much to withdraw love units.... I think especially for her.

Having done that, you need to back away and not engage in an argument about it .... not with the WS... not with anyone. That cheapens you and lowers you to their level. Expose and silence except to those who are supportive.

Ending the affair is the goal of Plan A.

Stick with the plan Lu. You're doing the right thing.

C

I agree with Zorweb and Cerri, the people who put you down for telling them about your H's A are not your friends. Try not to take their reactions to heart. You know the reality of your situation.

There are people that will think that there is something flawed in you and that you caused/deserved your husband's A. That they must truly be soulmates and it shouldn't be any of your business to spoil their fun. These people that are being negative to you are just products of our morally screwed up world.

It is best in the long run to try to be the best LULU you can be. To try to hold your chin up. To not act like a pathetic looser. To not succumb to your husband's blame and justifications for his A. You will be more attractive to him if you can respond to him in a loving but firm and confident manner. That you still love him and want to be married and be the best wife possible to him when he is ready to try to keep the marriage and start fresh. That, yes, you haven't been the perfect wife in the past but that you want to and can be better. That you both made a mistake by living independant lifestyles. I want you to know that even when things look bleak that there can still be hope for a complete turnaround in time. So many people give up too soon.

You need to look your best. Don't plead or be frantically needy to him. I don't know your husband. You know better than I could what he may respond best to.

It sounds like you are trying to keep it together for yourself. I hope the headhunter can find you a job. It would be great if you could get a good job soon so you wouldn't feel like such a drain on your H and you can have a bit of security for yourself. San Francisco is an expensive place to live. I would think that if you don't get something soon that you may need to relocate.

Lulu,

I gather he has read here, so he knows the principles--or he wouldn't feel so threatened by your posting here, and having your own support system..

you know, those who seem to be 'rallying' around him in support of his actions..not only are they not YOUR friends, but they are not truly HIS friends either..whether he realizes it or not

I know you mention he's working w/ OW on a project
so what's going to happen when the next project comes along and they aren't working together anymore? Would he be able to trust these so called friends to tell him what's going on? would he be able to trust them not to be walking in HIS shoes, and be the one having the relationship with her?? NO, he wouldn't..

Would he be able to trust HER to be faithful while working in another city? Would she be able to trust HIM?? Again, No--

I'm sure he thinks they would..because they are SOOO in love, but the reality is...they were both SOOOO in love with someone else just a few years ago..

I realize this sounds kinda negative like I'm saying your M will not work out...and to expect the worst, but that's not it at all, I'm saying this not really for your benefit, but for your h's--as I'm assuming if he's that threatened by what your sharing on here, and the support system you have here, he'll be reading again..and I'm hoping something I've said will make him think--
before he leaps..

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ThornedRose:

you know, those who seem to be 'rallying' around him in support of his actions..not only are they not YOUR friends, but they are not truly HIS friends either..whether he realizes it or not

<hr /></blockquote>Brilliant TR..... My friends rallied around me, held my hand, refused to tell me I was being an idiot and a cruel thoughtless person to boot. And you're right, they really weren't being my friends. To this day I wish they'd taken a stand.

C

[ October 12, 2003, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: *LULU* ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />He called my father and I think my dad tried to tell him the same thing...that if she cheats on her H to be with him, he has no guarantee that she won't do the same to him.<hr /></blockquote>Your father is a wise man for it happens often enough that the WS of today will become the BS of the future.

Can your parents offer you temporary help if you and your children need a place to stay?

[ October 12, 2003, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: *LULU* ]

LuLu I'm glad that your situation is not dire enough that you have to depend on your parents for economic support but it's always good to know that they are there in case you do need their help both financially and emotionally.

During ordeals like this one, it helps to keep yourself busy with activities and people that enrich your life, and I beseech you to not become a recluse because of what's happening in your marriage. If you continue living your life to the fullest, you become an attractive person not only to others but very possibly to your WH as well. So please make every effort to continue making your life the best it can be.

[ October 12, 2003, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: *LULU* ]

[ October 12, 2003, 11:46 AM: Message edited by: *LULU* ]

Dear Lulu,

I really feel for you.

My advice is very short as I have not much time on my hands right now.

Start making those changes for YOU, now. Take steps to be the most attractive, desirable woman on this planet, not just for him but for you and your own self confidence. It is going to be tough because you are hurting so much and your WH consumes ALL of your thoughts. When he is not there you have to pretend that he does not exist. When he is there you show him the changes, show him your love that is unbreakable.

Listen to him, smile at him, give him a neck massage if he will allow it. Tell him that no matter what you wish him to be happy because you love him. All of this is Plan A. No angry outbursts, lovebusters. Read about them.

When you need to shout, scream, break down, do it with your support people, us, friends, family, in the car, in the park - but NOT in front of him.

This is the beginning of a tough road. I am going to give you another visualization. Imagine that you have to eat a huge elephant. You don´t know where to start, and it seems like it will take forever to eat it. The first bites are small. The first bites are hard to chew. But the more bites you take at it the easier it gets, and at some point you will get to areas which are more tender and easier to digest.

Get going at that elephant, and if you throw up once in a while, it is o.k, don´t beat yourself up about it. Get back to eating.

Another piece of advice. Let your WH do all the work. If he wants a divorce let him do all the paperwork. You do not need to sign anything until you are ready. (at least I think so, but I do not know the laws and regulations in your country or state). By Plan A:ing him, he might have the heart to go to counselling with you and understand that for your sanity this is going too fast. It will give you time.

But please start making those changes to be a better you. ALL of us BS know exactly what we have done wrong in our M to push our WS away from us. We all make mistakes. Don´t sit on your mistakes, do something about them. NOW.

-queen-

LULU-

Happened to see this, and I recall you from the EN board; I am so sorry to read all this.

You are getting really good advice, and I am not going to add anything except a couple of thoughts.

1) He is saying typical WS stuff. You need to hear what he says and split out the legitimate information (i.e., what in his eyes damaged the marriage) from the hurtful stuff (too late, will never love you again etc.). The info is useful...you can react to it with action, but take the hurtful stuff with a BIG grain of salt. 3.5 years ago my DH was sure that it was too late for us, and that the best thing to do would be to split. Maybe you can stall the filing, but if not, don't despair...filing is not necessarily the end.

2) My personal theory is that it is much easier to MB a situation like this if you know you will be fine. And Lulu, you will be fine. I have no doubt that you will come thru this process and be a better partner, with better marital skills. Hopefully, you will get to use all that in this marriage, but if worse comes to worse, you will not only survive, but have gained a lot of knowledge that will go with you wherever you go.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Lulu}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Lulu, I know this is very, very hard, and I wish you the best of luck.

Kathi

[ August 04, 2003, 06:30 AM: Message edited by: kam6318 ]

What's up?

Hey Lu,

Just a couple of thoughts. Although it's good and it's admirable to look at your part in the breakdown of your marriage.... in NO WAY DID YOU CAUSE HIM TO HAVE AN AFFAIR.

This is not your fault. There are ethical ways to handle the problems and conflicts in marriage. Infidelity is not one of them. No matter what you did or did not do, it does not ever make having an affair with another woman ok or excusable.

No matter what you did or did not do in the marriage, having an affair is by far the most thoughtless and cruel choice one spouse can inflict on another. It is a betrayal beyond which it would be hard to go.

This is not your fault. He chose to betray you, your vows, your marriage, and himself as well. And in doing so he also chose to trash the sanctity of another marriage.

I told him that I was sorry for the email exposure - that it was selfish and ugly and I was sorry - it was unforgiveable. He said that I didn't hurt him.

Lu, I know this is horribly painful and scary. But you did the right thing in exposing the affair, in sending the email. You did not betray him, he betrayed you, himself, trashed his lover's marriage, and betrayed her husband as well. He is not the wronged one here, he is the perpetrator of wrongdoing.

He kept gently pushing my hair out of my eyes and he asked me to look at him. He had tears in his eyes. He said that I had to let him go. That the changes I was going to make were not too little, but they were too late. He said the only reason he was going to continue to go to the MC with me is so that I could finally hear what he has to say.

I'm so sorry. This must hurt so bad. But you can't believe what he is saying. He feels it now. And he is under the influence now. You've been around here long enough to have seen what those of us who were once the WS say about it..... we all said those things when we were in the grip of the addiction. And we all wished we could go back and take it all back.... make the choice to preserve the marriage... to not stray.

He said he is going to file for divorce on the 15th of August. I asked him if he would wait until the end of MC sessions in two months, but he again gently said no, that if I really wanted his happiness, I would let him go.

I know it's impossible to believe based on what he is saying. But if he divorces you, his chances of being happy are drastically reduced. The studies and the stats bear that out over and over again. Doing the hard work of a real Plan A is an act of love, even though it seems counter to that at the time.

I told him I didn't want him as only a friend, but as a husband and as a lover and as a sweetheart. He said he could no longer do those things. He had to go.

Brain cloud.

This hurts so much. He is acting so quickly. How can I save my marriage when he is scheduled to start ending it in less than 2 weeks?

IF he files... and that's a big if.... it doesn't by any stretch of the imagination mean it's over. Many people file and never go through with it. Quite a few divorce and reconcile. Just recently I met a woman who said her parents were divorced from each other twice and are still married.

I can't imagine life without him. What am I going to do?

I would hope that you are going to continue to do a full fledge Plan A followed by Plan B, so that when the affair ends and he wants to come home YOU are still willing to take him back. Right now, that's my biggest concern.

This feels so hopeless. I want so badly to be optimistic, to have hope. He's so adamant. He sounds so sure. I'm dying inside. I don't want anyone else. I only want him. Why can't I have just a small chance? Not that I deserve one...

Read my sig line. You cannot base what you do on the things he says. They are not real.

And yes you do deserve the chance.

{{{{Lu}}}}}

C

Lulu: I am going to do something unusual, and disagree with one little piece of what C says (?!?!?) <blockquote>quote:<hr /> Lulu wrote: I told him I didn't want him as only a friend, but as a husband and as a lover and as a sweetheart. He said he could no longer do those things. He had to go.

C replied: Brain cloud. <hr /></blockquote>Well, it may be a brain cloud (though that is a DJ), but that is where he is right now. Right now, he cannot do those things. It may feel to him like he will never be able to do those things again. That is how he feels. It will be true, if he continues to feel that way, and does not decide to act differently. We all know he could be capable of being and doing those things again if he chooses, but until HE makes that choice, he cannot and will not. As long as he feels that way, it is true, not a brain cloud. Plan A and B are designed to give him the best chance of making the choice to be and do those things again, once his affair ends. Plan A is the enticement. Plan B is to protect you so that YOU will still be williing when the A ends. Meanwhile, words like: "I can understand why you would feel that way." will make him feel understood and validated, and make him remember you as someone who understood him. Is that how you want to be remembered? That is what Plan A is about. Being the person you want him to remember when the A disintegrates.

Now John.... why is saying it's a brain cloud any different than saying it's fog talk? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

And I don't disagree with what you say, that it's how and what he feels now... but those feelings are based on the fact that he is under the influence of his addiction and like all feelings are subject to change at any moment.

But, crucial to that change occuring is that the A end. Only then can he make a clear and rational decision about what he wants and needs in his future.

C

C: Have you ever started a post without knowing what you want to say? This is mostly a brain dump that is only somewhat related to what Lulu said, and what you said, but I feel a need to compose, and it may be relevant. According to a book I read recently, men were created by God with a deep desire for three things: a battle to fight, an adventure to live, and a beauty to win. It sure works for me. Many men mis-direct these desires toward destructive disputes: violence, affairs, sports and corporate competition that is self-destructive (and other-destructive) and crime, but it is not the desires that are the problem, it is the way they are expressed. In fact, society and the church frequently try to quench these desires because of their pervasive negative modes of expression, rather than challenging men to express them in a constructive, healing, wholesome way that is consistent with an abundant, vibrant life.

I also read last night in "Passionate Marriage" how Schnarch tries to speak to his clients as if they were capable of acting with integrity, or perhaps speaks to that part of them that is capable of acting, or at least wants to act, with integrity. A man who is acting with integrity will be following those three deep desires without abusing others.

Lulu has seen her husband follow those three desires: to live an adventure-filled actor's life, to battle for her attention (two cards/day?!) and his place in his chosen field.

I think a way to describe what has happened is: For him, the adventure of their life together had become a stress-filled rut of obligation. He feels he/they had been losing the battle in the marketplace, and his battle for her attention and admiration had become unrewarding, even frustrating, and it did not seem like those things were going to change. His adventure with her did not go as planned, the battles seemed unwinnable, and Lulu was distant and didn't seem to care - she let him go. He gave up on their adventure.

Now, he has a new adventure, a new beauty, and the odds in the battle seem to have improved. That's why the changes are too late. But, he has given up his integrity in the process. Furthermore, if it is true that he has really not had sex with the OW, then he may not even realize it.

Lulu needs to find a way to tap in to those desires again. To challenge him to act with integrity without accusing him of acting without it. To remind him of how hard he fought for her - does he really want to give up now that he has a chance to win? To tell him that she believes in him, and his ability to win the battles. And to show him that she is a beauty worth fighting for.

I'm not sure that helps. But, I had pretty much given up on my marriage about six months before my wife started her affair. It was by God's grace alone that I did not jump ship and have my own affair. The emotional chasm between us continued to widen in the ensuing three years of her hidden affair. Then, she confessed. I then knew about the ULTIMATE betrayal, and had a theologically correct reason to seek the divorce I had secretly desired. (Truth be known, part of me had wished her dead so I could be released from my felt obligation to remain married to her.) So, what held me? Just what I suggested Lulu should try to tap into with her H: I had fought so long, and so hard, for our marraige, could I really give up the battle just when there was a chance of winning? I knew some of what that confession had cost her. I knew it was the most profound step she had ever taken toward the marriage for us that I desired. I could not pass up the opportunity to at least see what might happen. Then I talked to God about it, and His direction was quite clear.

Lulu, right now your H is distracted. But, the affair will probably end. What then? Will your H remember the glory of the battles you fought together, the power of your friendship, the adventures you shared? Or, will he remember frustration and conflict and feelings of being overwhelmed by financial problems? A lot of that depends on what is the last thing in his memory banks about you - what happens between now and Plan B.

Plan A your heart out. (That does not necessarily mean avoid conflict - I think a woman who knows what she wants and fights to get it is very sexy, frankly.) And pray. Will it "work"? - To get your H back? Maybe. - To know you did the best you could? Yes. That is all anyone can do.

[ August 04, 2003, 11:02 PM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]

Johnh39,

Wow, that post was an inspiration to me. Thank you for posting it.

-queen-

[ October 12, 2003, 11:47 AM: Message edited by: *LULU* ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by johnh39:
C: Have you ever started a post without knowing what you want to say? <hr /></blockquote>LOL John,

You can ask that in all seriousness after reading the reams I've written in the last couple of years??

Yeaaah....

Good thoughts, and an interesting perspective. I have a similar train of thought about men, women, deity, and life/romance/relationships. But it hasn't jelled enough for me to put it all on paper... that and I have literally no time.

Really you guys aren't coming to the bonfire? I was hoping to get to know Mrs. John a little better. She seems very wonderful.

C

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> C wrote: Really you guys aren't coming to the bonfire? I was hoping to get to know Mrs. John a little better. She seems very wonderful. <hr /></blockquote>She is. I'll send her that quote - Admiration is a high need for her <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ...

There is a small chance we may come, as it looks like our other plans for that day may change (though she does not know that yet).