</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> C wrote: This recovery stuff is darn hard work. Always something waiting to bite you in the butt. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tell me about it. I'm not sure I'm READY to write the second half of that recovery piece. We seem kinda stuck. Not completely, but further progress seems to be at a creep, with the same issues coming up repeatedly. I get kinda discouraged at times. That said, we are a in a lot bettr place than any time I can remember pre-A, so maybe I have unrealistic expectations. Whether realistic or not, I seem to have a knack for transmitting the message: "You can do better" in such a way that it sounds like: "You are inadequate". Well, awareness is the first step.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">does email count as a letter?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Send both.

Yes, email counts as a letter. Just be prepared for the backlash that you'll probably get. Don't engage, just delete.

And I agree on the exposure.... give him 6 hours then to make good on any promises. If he blows you off then expose immediately.

Ok, I'm not voting a second time Lulu <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> but let me clarify. I think you need to hand him the letter and tell him face-to-face, in your own words, what you need to tell him. That way, he's got a copy of the letter and you've got a duplicate of the main points you are trying to pound into him!

I'm not sure confronting the OW is what you want to do at this point or even expose the A. You need (oh-oh, a demand C?) to see how your WH reacts to what you have to say to him. If he is going to make amends and end the A, then you need to see the letter and put it in the mailbox yourself as well as have access to all of his e-mail. If your WH denies everything or gets wishy-washy, then you expose the A.

I'm not really sure confronting the OW is a good idea. Sometimes, the WS runs to the aid of the OP when they are under attack (like when being confronted by a BS).

Get legal advice on the 401k.

HoFS

Hi cerri!!! It's my little man's birthday....he's 6. Just finished putting the finishing touches on his new bicycle. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

John.....you are just right. Inspite of the fact that lulu has been here, she never really believed that much of this stuff applied to her. She enjoyed the comradery of the board, made friends and was secretly thankful that her marriage was better off than so many here. If a lightning bolt had hit her she wouldn't have been more surprised. It's so darn easy to miss the signs when honesty leaves the marriage, and like so many....by the time we "get it" we are in deep doo doo. The phrase that comes to mind is "how could this happen???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> ". I sure wish we had a higher success rate with folks who could prevent this heartache.

For right now, I'm glad that even if she wasn't applying this stuff, she at least knows and understands the process.....because she sure needs it. It's probably pretty humbling for her to need it....but I am happy that she has put that aside and is here and listening. She's a smart girl....very smart....but like so many of us has found out that we are all fallable. I'm happy she is talking so honestly and proactively now. And I really do think you can save this marriage lulu. Stay strong, calm, focused and open.

Good Luck tonight. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Ok, I'm not voting a second time Lulu <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> but let me clarify. I think you need to hand him the letter and tell him face-to-face, in your own words, what you need to tell him. That way, he's got a copy of the letter and you've got a duplicate of the main points you are trying to pound into him!

Yeah, I like that. Then he can refer back to it later when the shock wears off and he can't remember what you said

I'm not sure confronting the OW is what you want to do at this point or even expose the A.

Sorry Hoffs.... but that's directly contradictory to what Bill Harley says, and I'm stickin' with him. Confront and expose asap. Plan A is about ending the A by simultaneously eliminating lbers, expressing a willingness to meet needs, confronting, and exposing.

You need (oh-oh, a demand C?) to see how your WH reacts to what you have to say to him. If he is going to make amends and end the A, then you need to see the letter and put it in the mailbox yourself as well as have access to all of his e-mail. If your WH denies everything or gets wishy-washy, then you expose the A.

I'd be ok with that on exposing.... to a certain extent... he'd have to agree to that and follow through immediately.... but not on confronting the OW.

I'm not really sure confronting the OW is a good idea. Sometimes, the WS runs to the aid of the OP when they are under attack (like when being confronted by a BS).

Yep, and I'm perfectly fine with that. As I said above it introduces a nasty little conflict into the R. It's no longer fun and games and a wonderful little lovey secret.... it's now a source of conflict and hurt. Let them run to each other.... the more time they spend together discussing something unpleasant (like the fact that their spouses know) the more love units are withdrawn.

BTW.... you need to contact her husband too.

Get legal advice on the 401k.

I wouldn't. Not yet. Ignore his offer to do that. Keep legal interference out of it until you are forced to go there. It muddies the water and creates an adversarial position that is very difficult to get out of.

You have plenty of time to decide on property. Right now, let's work on ending the A.

C

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by star*fish:
Hi cerri!!! It's my little man's birthday....he's 6. Just finished putting the finishing touches on his new bicycle. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

John.....you are just right. Inspite of the fact that lulu has been here, she never really believed that much of this stuff applied to her. She enjoyed the comradery of the board, made friends and was secretly thankful that her marriage was better off than so many here. If a lightning bolt had hit her she wouldn't have been more surprised. It's so darn easy to miss the signs when honesty leaves the marriage, and like so many....by the time we "get it" we are in deep doo doo. The phrase that comes to mind is "how could this happen???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> ". I sure wish we had a higher success rate with folks who could prevent this heartache.

For right now, I'm glad that even if she wasn't applying this stuff, she at least knows and understands the process.....because she sure needs it. It's probably pretty humbling for her to need it....but I am happy that she has put that aside and is here and listening. She's a smart girl....very smart....but like so many of us has found out that we are all fallable. I'm happy she is talking so honestly and proactively now. And I really do think you can save this marriage lulu. Stay strong, calm, focused and open.

Good Luck tonight. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Boy if that isn't the truth!! When I first came to MB, before there was a forum and then afterwards.... I read all the stuff on control and abuse and anger. I would see the infidelity info and think...."Gee, I'm so glad we don't have THAT problem."

Live and learn..... it happens to all of us on some level.

John..... let's talk elsewhere about recovery if you like..... my thread? I don't want to hijack this one. If you think I can offer anything, fill me in on where you've kinda stalled and what you'd like to see happen. I'm sure we can brainstorm some stuff.

We've (I've <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) made great strides this summer. Star was a big help with some things and other things needed to ferment in my little brain for a while.

My Sept. NL is Conversation and Romance, I have some cool ideas.

C

Lulu please do consult a lawyer. California is a no fault community property state. There can be serious financial consequences for you if your H moves out w/o a legal separation agreement in place. In a community property state unless there is a legal separation agreement in place or a divorce petition has been filed you will be held financially responsible for any debts that he incurs. On the plus side you may qualify for spousal support since you are unemployed and you have been married 10 years. As far as him cashing out his 401K in CA 1/2 of that is yours already and there are tax consequences to cashing out a 401 K for which you could be held responsible.

I hope things work out for you. I know you don't want to rock the boat by seeking out a lawyer but you really need to protect yourself esp in California because of the commnity property laws.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cerri:
<strong>[b].... Confront......

C</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Another 'C' word!!!!! And a favorite.

Not that I was disagreeing with Willard but what I meant was, no need to confront the OW until Lulu tells her WH what she knows. Then, Lulu's WH better tell the OW that the A is over and that Lulu knows all about it. If the WH doesn't end the A, then of course, Lulu should let the OW know she knows about the A and that Lulu wants to save her own marriage. Better?

HoFS

<small>[ July 30, 2003, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: *LULU* ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lulu:
<strong>Okay, let me write out a list of "events" for this evening to make sure i'm doing everything right:

1) Write the letter with the editions (i'll post the letter again before i print it out)

2) Call WH and schedule him to meet me a minimum of an hour before my meeting with the counselor

3) Call OW's husband (if I can get his phone number and be sure it is him) and expose

4) Prepare email to OW and send only when WH arrives to pick me up

5)go to a private area and give him the letter. I will also say what is on my mind and prepare for his response

6) Go to the marriage counselor armed with cerri's questions.

7) WH picks me up from marriage counselor

8) starting tomorrow, reveal, expose, tell everybody!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're good!!! And remember to take care of you.... this is horribly emotionally draining and difficult. Be sure to remember to eat and to destress if you can. Also, is there a real live shoulder you can cry on if you need? Same sex and an advocate of your marriage, of course.

Lulu,

I am so so sorry that you are going through this. It is very tough.

Now, I realize that I've never had an affair to deal with in my M, but I did have a time when my H was so withdrawn he wasn't interested in me meeting his needs. Your H is in the middle of an affair, so to him Affection and SF will feel like cheating on HER - yes, the OW. I know it hurts and it shouldn't be that way...it goes against everything that we believe in our marriage...but it's true.

What did I do at first? Hit the EN that means a lot and doesn't throw up flags (and least not as high) - RC! Recreational Companionship is a great way to meet ENs under the 'radar' of a reluctant spouse. It is a time to be cheery, laugh, etc. It can also be time to meet some of the Conversation need. Keep it light and simple so that it feels good.

Your biggest instinct right now will be to discuss where your relationship is headed. I advise you to minimize that type of conversation and to never intersperse it with the RC. Keep it fun.

I'm reading the rest of your situation as well, I just wanted to let you know that I care.

Hugs,
Tak

Ok, now I'm adding my addendums:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You want their next conversation to be about "OMG what are we going to do she knows.... what will she do.... who else will she tell....??" rather than their usual lovey dovey aren't we a wonderful couple <gag me> fantasy bubble. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This was posted by Cerri, and I couldn't agree more. The fact that it is secret keeps this relationship from experiencing much stress. Exposing it to as many people as soon as possible puts stress on this relationship. The more stress that this relationship feels, the better, IMHO. They will place more expectations on each other, they will develop shorter fuses with each other... IMHO, there is never too much stress on an A. The more stress introduced (WHILE AVOIDING LBs, especially lying on your part - always have to stress that. You will have the odd person who thinks that they can add so much more stress by passing around a few lies and such, and it will only bite you in your @ss...) the better.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Your husband will do all that he can to make you out to be the bad guy...It's the infidelity brain cloud, it's not real. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is a lot that will go on. It won't just be your H. It will be family, friends, OW, co-workers...anyone who finds out about your situation will try to feed you a heaping helping of their not-so-humble opinion. It happened to me. You have to turn a blind eye and deaf ear to IT ALL. Come up with a good plan based on Harley's principles and stick to your plan. Do not get on the rollercoaster.

Remember that everyone you know has an agenda of some sort. NONE of those agendas have your marriage as the top priority, so stick to your own agenda and ignore what they say.

My family jumped on the 'leave him - he's scum' bandwagon. Others jumped on the 'make him move back' bandwagon. His family jumped on the 'she never took care of you' bandwagon. Do NOT listen. This stuff can tear you up inside, and the damage is already sufficient enough. Stick to your plan.

<small>[ July 29, 2003, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: *Takola* ]</small>

<small>[ October 12, 2003, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: *LULU* ]</small>

<small>[ October 12, 2003, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: *LULU* ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lulu:
<strong>
OMG! What do I do?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't panic. Stick to your plan. Ok, so you may have to talk with him more than an hour before your appointment. You know what to say. Radical honesty. You'll have to tell him you've been monitoring his IM because of your suspicisions.

Good luck. I can't check back here any more today. Did I mention don't panic?

HoFS

Follow your plan. The letter is good. Tell him you want to talk to him, just like you planned to do. I'll be around for an hour yet if you need me.

C

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lulu:

"I would like you to end the affair immediately. I would like for you to cease all further contact with her now. I would like for you to write her a letter, or an email informing her that the affair is over and that you want her to contact you no further under any circumstances."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LOVE BUSTER ALERT! SELFISH DEMAND OVERLOAD!

Consider the following instead:

Dear H if there is any hope for OUR marriage to survive and be rebuilt into the kind that WE dreamed off when WE got married, then WE must agree that the A has to end. If WE are in agreement then I hope that WE can also see the wisdom in writting a letter to the OW respectfully requesting her that she never contacts US again. WE can do no less for OUR marriage and for OURSELVES.

Notice the presence of the word 'WE' and 'US' for it emphasizes UNION between you and him. Please consider adding it to your letter.

Mmmmm.....yes, what CoffeeMan said....

Frankly, I'm ok with the way you have it. But I like the concept of emphasizing "we-ness"

<small>[ October 12, 2003, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: *LULU* ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lulu:

I have two questions.

1) Is this a good idea for me to tell her husband? Do you think he might flip out and beat her or something? Do you think she might come after me physically?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is a possibility but just like you are NOT responsible for your WH's actions, YOU ARE NOT responsible of the OW's BH actions. Just because he is a BH that doesn't give him the right to use violence against his WW OR himself. There is NO excuse for violence period.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2) I'm still searching for his email address...but i do have their phone number. It's not quite 3 pm here and I don't imagine he would be home yet. Should I call? What do I say? What if she answers the phone? Do I make something up?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, call him and tell him your name and the reason why you are calling him. Emphasize that your purpose in contacting him is to give your marriage and perhaps his, a chance to survive the affair AND because, no matter what happens, he deserves the right to know the truth.

<small>[ July 29, 2003, 05:15 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>