SOD,
My thoughts go backand forth.Deep down Ilovelifeandmy w & kids. on the surface and quite a few layers below, the pain is too much that Ihavecausedothers & myself. but,4 now at least, i am ok.

swh,
i am rescheuling my appton my return (perhaps tues). as 4 cal,it was/is nice to be w/f rite now. it was difficult getting here though,more drama. ileftwork 3 hrs + beforemy flight. we had a torrentialdownpour and while i was on the verranzzano bridge, NYC,a car stopped in fonrt of me and my brakes didn't brake. no one washurt,and i thanked godandleftit in his hands wether I was meant to goto cal.
i had dinner w/my b, sil and nephew last nite in the gaslamp quarter and it was nice and peaceful admist allthat has been going on w/me. i going to the beach in a few and catch some sun.

All,
after the mess on thursday evening, i do have akey to the house. i would liketo go in and stay in the basement until the d,or try to repair it whileiam there. i want to goback so i can be the kids (1), stop waisting so much $$$ (2), and (3) repiar the m. i do know i need to fix myselfas well.

one last note fornow. i am considering going down to fla forthe ms weekend. anyone going down from nj/ny area, i want to drive and figure somewouldlikecompany. in light of the problems/issues around my r i would only ride down w/a couple or just men. 4 myself i consider this part ofthe rule of protection.

ttsmm

Trying,
Regarding moving back home to 1. be with kids,2. save $$ and 3. repair the marriage: Have you not been listening to others on MB and to your wife? Being with your kids right now seems to involve them in fights between you and your wife. Not good!! Also, you haven't been mentally stable (suicidal thoughts with a plan), and they and you don't need to deal with that right now. Get yourself stable before you try and work on anything. Save Money? Going to court on TROs can be costly, as can a divorce if you keep pressuring your wife. Work on repairing the marriage? How?? Your wife has make it clear over and over that she doesn't want to be around you right now. So you override her feelings and accomplish what?? Reality is that just because you "have seen the light" and want forgiveness and reconciliation, it's not all about you!! Your wife does not "owe" you forgiveness and reconciliation just because you repented and want it. IMO the affair was also all about you. (As it is with all WS as far as I'm concerned.)It's about time you starting respecting your wife and children's needs! Committing suicide would devestate your kids. Statistics are consistent about that. Grow up and start cleaning up your own act by following through on mental health treatment. Start showing respect for the feelings of your wife and children. That may well get you a much more positive response and put you in a better position for rebuilding a relationship.

As for the inquiry as to your sobriety "bringing a smile to your face", I,too, question this as a possibility. Your typing and responses have progressively deteriorated since your initial posting. If it's not drugs or alcohol, then it certainly shows a decay in mental status. Get help. Don't make "suicide" an additional consequence to your wife and children of your affair. They've had to deal with enough as it is.

<small>[ August 02, 2003, 10:25 PM: Message edited by: lilymarie ]</small>

lillymarie,
I appreciate you taking the time to read and reply tomy thread. While I am upset over many of your comments, I do appreciate them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As for the inquiry as to your sobriety "bringing a smile to your face", I,too, question this as a possibility. Your typing and responses have progressively deteriorated since your initial posting. If it's not drugs or alcohol, then it certainly shows a decay in mental status. Get help. Don't make "suicide" an additional consequence to your wife and children of your affair. They've had to deal with enough as it is. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First off, my initial posting was during the time I was contemplating the pills. I wanted to get my message out as quickly as I could, and it did not matter about the spelling, etc. Later, my replies were sent like wise, so that I was communcating what was going on for me at the time.
My chuckling at the sobriety? comment was meant that if I am going to kill myself why would I care if I was drunk or not. And you can question my comment about the smile, but do me a favor, ASK ME A QUESTION, DON'T ASSUME YOU KNOW WHAT I AM THINKING. This is what my W has done to me through out our R & M and it does nothing to resolve any communication.

My continued posting/typing errors are because I am using my brother's PC and many of thekeys stick. I don't feel like re-typing every few words. For this post I am being extra careful of my writing and spelling and it is annoying.

I don't want to type in all your quotes from your reply, because that would be too much for now. You should read some of my other threads then you would get a fuller understanding of my situation.

I take 100% responsibility for my A. I take 50% responsibility for the state of my M prior to the A. I take no responsibility of my W's EA (PA?).

I have started respecting my W's and children's need. On this night, I was trying to get into the house. She has no right to lock me out of the house. She had an EA herself, and I am still not 100% sure it went PA or if it is over. She says it is, but...? She strung me along for the last year saying she wanted to work on it and then changing her mind and then having a TRO against for bu**sh** reasons. Yes, I did grab her wrists (5 years ago), after the A ended. That does not give her the right to have a TRO against me because we had an arguement and she saw an "opportunity" to get the D going. If she wanted a D, she should have started filing shortly after I confessed to her suspicions about my A. Not play me so she could have a house for herself and the kids. The kids want a stable family not a house. She confided with women in our neighborhood, just after we moved in, then she was going to D me after our 10th.

If I seem angry in this posting, I am. I know the work I need to do. I have been working on myself for the past 2 years, and she saw results. I walked away from her when she wanted to start an argument, and she would chase me. I guess if she wants to argue at 2:00 AM I should just get dressed and leave the house?

I am on a much needed vacation right now, and when I return I will get with my therapist.

I have more to say,but I am going to the pool right now.

TTSMM

Trying, Bless your heart - I hope being with your family is a calming, healing time. Going to see them was a step toward helping yourself, even if you broke an appt with your therapist to do it. I wish you had a counselor you trusted more. If you don't like the one you have, could you get another one? We all need to be wise consumers when choosing our healthcare professionals! It sounded like you might have been having a major panic attack on 7/31 when you began this thread (waking up freezing cold) - new meds might really help!
Your getting a chuckle out of the "Don't kill yourself when you're drunk" idea reminded me of an article I read when I was depressed that was written by a psychologist. She said not to kill yourself when you're depressed - it's too big of a decision to make when you're not in a rational mood! That gave me a smile, but it helped because I knew it was true. Hang in there. Your life doesn't have to be ruined. Things might not turn out like you think or like you want, but God can take us even at our worst and change our lives for the better. Take deep breaths and pray. When we're in trouble, God isn't chasing us - He's waiting for us with forgiveness and restoration. It could be a very long road, but please don't give up hope!

Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. You and your wife are really communicating. It is the beginning, not the end. So the kids know, big deal, my father had an affair or more, I still love him and he helped me when my H had his affair.

You are also probably suffering from post traumatic stress disorder from what happened in the city Sept 11. You are dealing with a lot, but you need to pull yourself up and deal with it. It will get better. As long as there is life there is hope. She is reacting to you. This will pass. It is time for you to Plan A for yourself. She will notice if you keep at it. Trust has to be rebuilt. You did the right thing by bringing it out in the open. It is going to be OK. Your marriage can be better. I understand you wanting the company of family right now. Did you talk to your doc about the zoloft. I don't think the zoloft is working. My heart goes out to you. Please, your children need you. We care about you-Jersey Girl <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Just registered today, after reading so much that I can identify with. To the person thinking of suicide, you have had a lot of painful things to cope with, one following another, which does not give a chance to heal emotionally in between.You need to give yourself credit for acknowledging pain you may have caused others, and for having the courage, inner strength and love to be honest. Mistakes we make in life have a chance of being remedied or worked through. Suicide is final. Suicide is not the answer, although the level of pain makes it seem one. You have children who love you, and to whom you are important. They will need you in their lives as they grow older. Please, for your own sake and their's, get help!

I want to thank all of you for your supportive words and helping me when I was at the edge. Some words were not what I needed to hear, most were. I don't believe you berate someone when they are the edge of a cliff.

I have many of what was said deep inside of me. Though I was feeling this way on Friday morning on the surface and a few layers below, deep down I know what is right. I have always been a very emotional man (unfortunately) and I was so distraught over how I had just messed up at home, that I could not see the last layer where there is hope, and love and promise of a new beginning. This is why I want/need to goto counseling. If I ever feel this way again, I want to know that I can get myself out and not be that close to calling it quits.

To answer a few things. I forget who, mentioned that they were sorry I borke my appt w/my therapist to be with my family. By being with my F, I wasa able to access that last layer deep inside and see hope, etc. Would my therapist been able to help me? Perhaps, but, then I would have spent this weekend by myself as my friends (where I am currently living) were away. The thought of being alone,with these thoughts in head were too frightening.

Right now, I am getting ready for bed, as I told my brother at dinner, reality is creeping back in. I am starting to feel a bit depressed and anxious about going home, nothing suicidal, just down.

Throughout this mini vacation, I seen a lot of beautiful women and loving couples. My desire for SF is strong and I know I will NOT do anything to jeopardize hopeful recovery in that aspect. I just miss it. As for the loving couples; I hope and pray that someday that will be my W and I again. I feel sad because that is what I want in my life.

As for my therapist, he is new. The one I have been seeing for the past two years is good, but, he wasn't a good marraige counselor. Also, he toldme things that he felt about my W from her sessions. true or not? Over the past two years I have found many professionals, from therapists to lawyers, tell me what I want to hear (or to my W what she wants to hear) and are more than willing to badmouth or agree with me on how my W is. The only professional I have found to shoot straight from the hip is my priest.

I am rabbling now, so I will stop here.

I fly back tomorrow evening and arrive in NYC at 6:45 AM (taking the redeye). From there I go to work, where I will call my therapist and reschedule. Then in the evening I have my men's team meeting. After which I will return to my friend's house. Before next week, I will move back into our house and stay in the basement (starting a full PLAN A). This is where I will need MB's help. I still find it difficult to do a PLAN A, if she is no longer having her EA. BUT, I am willing to take assistance from you folks on working that out.

Thanks again for your love and support.
TTSMM

Yes, the beauty is that today is another day...that you and your wife have started on the road to recovery. I am happy you have a priest..catholic? Me too. That helps soooo much. Is your wife catholic? If she is this is even better. Forgiveness is at the root of being catholic. Let he who is without sin throw the first stone.

Anyway, glad you are feeling better. I think it is great that you are starting Plan A. It is also good that you went to be with family. Therapists are great, but family is even better.

Ok, now this won't happen over night, but keep at it. It will be great when she realizes that you really do love her and want to make a better life for your family. As a BS I can tell you she is hurting beyond belief, I can also tell you that she can move beyond this to a deeper relationship with you. I've said it before, now you can have the tested relationship that is better in a way because it will be stronger.

Moving back in is great. Do not be frustrated. Many WSs want to jump right back to where they were before the A. You can't, never. That said, it is still OK, but she is 3 yrs behind you in recovery.

I am excited for you because I have a feeling that this relaionship with your wife will be better than ever. She needs a little time to get over the hurt.

I wish you a great day.-Jersey Girl

PS-not a good idea to mention that there are so many beautiful women out there, nice to know but don't say anything about that to her. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Trying, I'm so glad your family has been supportive and helpful to you. It's wonderful to read that you are feeling a little better. Your thoughts are obviously clearer - you've been able to develop a plan for when you get back to NYC! I'm proud of you that you got through such a rough time and that you are hanging in there! You will be in my thoughts and prayers. God bless.

Hi Trying,

I'm glad to hear that this break helped you tremendously. Sounds like you have a very supportive family.

Has your W agreed to your moving into the basement? I am asking because I don't want to assume that it was mutually agreed upon or that it was something you decided to do. I kept looking back to see if I missed something to clarify this.

I hope I read correctly that you and your W are starting to communicate a little better.

I hope you get some rest on the flight home, so you are not too tired.

I wish you the best of luck in everything.

nj/rose/sue,
Here's the deal.

</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am moving into the basement of our house this week. Has she agreed? She asked when I was coming back since I have the key.</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are we communicating? I guess you could call it that.</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She called me today to say she needed money. I told her I would drop by before going to work. This will make me late for work, BUT, I feel it is satisfying one of her EN's. Another big EN for her is Conversation. She talked alot on the phone about how difficult it is with Stefan not being potty trained, and pouring water on a man's head at the pool (I guess this Domestic Support as well), and just general venting. I felt I was there for her today, and might have gained some points (two ;-). So, if I can check my ego at the door and be a good listener, I can add more points.
One quick note: to show she hasn't given up on a D, she said she wants to go back to work, but she doesn't think she will ever be able to afford daycare for Stefan. I did not jump in saying I would pay for it, but ofcourse I will/would. Let me support one EN at a time.

My biggest problem isgoing to be not to LB, particularly, ANGRY OUTBURSTS. That is my downfall.

I am asking foryou MBers out there (as wellas my men's team)tokeepme in check with that.

Thanks again to all.
TTSMM

Good Job Trying. Keep meeting those EN for her. Come here and complain to us. She may be explosive with anger, she has to get it out of her system. Don't LB. Camly restate what she says to you, back to her and say I am sorry I hurt you, I can understand you feeling that way (if it applys).

She wants you to understand how hurt she is, and if you can take it in and respond to this hurt you will be halfway there. Remember, she found out way after the affair, but it is still fairly fresh. She is letting you come home, this is a huge thing. She is going to let you meet some of her needs, more love units in the bank. You are doing great. There may be some set backs, but just go foward. Call her a lot and tell her where you are and what you are doing. Many of us keep wondering what our WSs are doing.

Welcome home and have a great day. Remember, you and your wife are really starting a new relationship. The marriage can be stronger. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I was suppose to go straight to work from the airport, but my W called yesterday and said she needed money. So, I went to the house and gave her some $ as well as souveniers for the kids. When I left, I told her I would call her later because I had a men's meeting tonight. She wanted to know why I was going to call her? I said because I was coming back into the house on either Wed or Thu. When I left, she looked upset.

While on my way to work she called me and let me know how upset she was. I won't go through all of her comments, just a few.
</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Everyone I talk to about the horrible things you did, agrees with me that you are an evil H.
  Your men's team probably doesn't know half of what you have done.
  I'm still divorcing you. You are going to confuse the kids by moving back in.
  You are a born manipulator. I always had to 'yes' you to death.</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I had to do a lot of counting, to myself, to not blow up (LB).
I don't know what to say to her when she starts venting, or if she asks me questions like; "You agree that you are a manipulator?" Because, if I answer 'yes' to let her get her feelings out, she hits me with my agreement at a later "conversation". If I say 'no', she lists how she "knows" that I am. Problem is in the past, she thought I was a sex addict, and after many months of badgering, I finally sucumbed and admitted that I was. It's a 50-50 split with friends, family, professsionals on whether or not I am. The behavior is not good, but it is not addictive.

Anyway, I need coaching on how to talk to her. I am almost finished with SAA and I am finding it hard to have faith that I can save my M if only one is 'living' the MB principles and not LBing. In the stories of Jon and Sue, and Lee and Kevin, both spouses were willing to try. With my M, only 1 (me) is willing to try. I feel if I don't get back into the house this week, she will serve me w/D papers and then all hope is lost.

From the postings I have read, most WS are in a fog and don't want ot resolve the M. It is the BS who is struggling to get it to work. With me it is the opposite and feel lost much of the time.

Another ?. Do I call her and let her know where I am when I am not leaving work on time, etc. if she says she is D'ing me? How do I deal with her venting over and over again everytime I try to fulfiol an EN?

Back to Work!
ttsmm

Oops! Forgot something.

When she brings up about how she could never forgive me, it is th eusual, "Why should I?", etc.

Today, it was something newer?
I was to forgive you, "it would be beneath me." "A women would have to be total walkover, or a doormat."

That's all for now.
ttsmm

Trying, Mostly I'm replying to your latest post just to offer support, but I'm not sure what to give as advice on how to win back your wife. I hope there is someone out there reading these posts who has had a similar experience and has some ideas. At least you have a support system of family, friends, and counselors. I haven't read all of your threads, but the "sex addiction" part is confusing to me, if you only had one A, and it was 5 years ago. I don't mean to be nosy, and you don't owe me any explanations, I'm just thinking that you are the only one who really knows all that has happened in your M and what your past mistakes were. Anything like a sexual addiction would definitely take a counselor to help you with. You're doing a good job with using all your resources to get help. Your wife is obviously very angry right now. Maybe if she sees that you are really trying to make changes, she will finally begin to give you a break. It sounds like she doesn't want to be pushed into anything, and the more you try, the farther away she pulls back. It might take her a long time to give you another chance, but even if she decides to get a D, you will have the benefit of having worked on yourself and will be a better person, with the experience of a hard lesson learned. Take care of yourself, do the best you can. Not to sound preachy, but if you give yourself and your problems to God, you will be o.k. no matter what happens. He loves us more than we know and knows what's best for us, even when we don't understand what's going on. I truly believe that with God, all things are possible, but things won't necessarily happen on our timetable. I'll continue to pray for you and your wife (and your kids). I hope everything turns out well!

<small>[ August 05, 2003, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: Rose55 ]</small>

Trying,

I am at a loss right now.

My honest opinion based upon the information you provided, I think she is confused.

One - I think family, friends, etc are telling her that she should leave.

two - She is communicating with you. Do you best to keep it positive.

Did you ask her why she thinks you are a sex addict? Did you tell her the only reason you agreed with her, was because you thought she would stop telling you that you are?

I guess, I don't understand, what/why she thinks you are a sex addict.

In the stories of Jon and Sue, and Lee and Kevin, both spouses were willing to try.
Did we read the same book? Sue was NOT even remotely interested in saving the marriage until later in the affair.

Eventually Sue came around to doing the MB principles but most of the time she was beyond the ***** from hell.

Hope you are having a good day!

Chris,
Yes. We did read the same book. Sue went into counselling with Jon. All be it, much later on and after the A.
Unless I missed something, which is possible, she kept both Jon and Greg around while she figured things out for herself, having her cake and eating it too. Then when Greg dumped her, she went back to Jon, and wanted to make him wrong on everything, and eventually, reluctantly, went into counselling.

In my situ, there is no A going on for either of us. And she doesn't want to go into counselling, she wants a D (has said that her atty is filing.)

Sue, (&Rose),

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Did you ask her why she thinks you are a sex addict? Did you tell her the only reason you agreed with her, was because you thought she would stop telling you that you are?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because prior/during the A I was going to strip clubs (went 4-5 times in those 5 years), online chats, had an xxx pic from another woman from an online chat, watched pornos, and had magazines. Since shortly after the A ended 5 years ago, NO online chats, and NO strip clubs. She use to watch those movies w/me and in counselling last year (or 2 years ago) she said she only watched because she felt she had to do, to stay with me. Since I have been out of the house, 3 months, NO mags (after the first 2 weeks), NO videos, occassional websites (this has even curtailed).

I did not want to be controlled and the way my W's telling me not to do these things came across as controlling at the time. Why couldn't she say, "I don't want you to go to strip clubs because I won't feel special to you anymore.", or something along those lines. Instead, "I don't want you to go to strip clubs." During the aftermath of the A, while she suspectd but it wasn't confirmed, she went to various women support group meetings. Basically, they kept telling her that of course he (me) is an sex addict, and he's controlling, and he's this, and that. So with this info, she hounded me constantly until I borke down and to stop the badgering, agreed that I was. Now because of that agreement, she can hold that over my head for ever. "You're a sex addcit. I can't trust you."

???
Not to be angry right now, BUT...
Why is it women can take back the things they say/do, but men never can't?

All,
Just to update. I am moving back into the house tonight; all my things should be in by the weekend. She is upset over this, but I don't see how I can work at the M from outside. At least if she has filed, I will have some time w/the kids until the D is finalized.
I will be staying in the basement and doing Plan A, and working my best to not LB. And I will be the DOORMAT for the next 6-9 months (haven't decided a definite end date yet).

Keep my and my family in your paryers.
TTSMM

I moved back in yesterday, to the basement. She was a bit surprised, thought it was going to be Thursday. Her mood was null. She told me about her father's illness and how she was preparing for the worst. Her and her brother didn't even know he was this sick. She said that she wishes he had told her, and not kept quiet about it. She said that if she ever got breast cancer, she would let everyone know; not to get pity, but to inform everyone. "I shoot straight from the hip.", she said, "I wish others in my life one would do that." I felt this was not only aimed at her dad, but me as well. I don't think she always shoots from the hip.
She also said that I could help by taking her and our D out to Long Island because she gets nervous when she has to drive on unfamiliar roads, etc. Also, for me to watch our S because she doesn't want him to be at the funeral.

VENTING - I did not confront her on this as I would have in the past. When my Dad and Mom died over the past year, she did want our D to attend because it might affect her, but less than 4 months later, its OK for our D to attend her father's funeral and not our S.
Thanks for letting me vent.

I saw my therapist earlier. Still trying to figure if I want to find a different therapist. It's hard for me to see if I don't like a therapist because they are not good for me, or if I am resisting what they are telling me.
We did get to one very important discovery yesterday: my wanting to kill myself would definitely stop my pain, but it would also cause pain to my W and kids. That I alread knew. What I discovered was that the pain I would cause my W would be the ultimate act of her having no control over me. That was an eye opener.

Back to my being home. I need to be a doormat and take care of her (body, mind, heart and soul) to the point where she will let me. She asked me how much money I was giving her tomorrow (Thur)? I asked her how much she needed and she couldn't give me an answer. She said she would have a definite number soon once her lawyer has filed a tende lette ?. Which is suppose to mean a court order to give her a certain amount of money each week. I am thinking about taking my checking acct and converting it into a joint acct again, since I am back in the house. I will consider any suggestions from fellow MBers.

Lastly, I am almost finished with SAA. The next book I think I need to read is Love Busters. With my not wanting to be controlled and my being controlling, this is paramount (I feel) to putting my M back together. I figure I have about 18 months to have her see me for who I really am and not the vision of the man who devistated her with my A and other selfish acts.

Thanks for now,
TTSMM