BA,

It is time you took control of this. If she wants a divorce tell her to go get one, and counter file if you don't like the terms and the reasons.

As for her belittling you, this is real simple. Just say you won't tolerate one second more. To pipe down, and stay down. YOU WILL LET HER KNOW WHEN YOU DECIDE ABOUT THE MARRIAGE.

You can do this and NOT LB (love bust), but you must take control. Sit down and explain to her how you expect her to act, when you expect to hear from her, and what you expect for your W to do. If she cannot do these things, then my friend you are wasting your time and this is simply a game she is playing.

She did want you AND OM. Now she has apparently lost OM, but he cannot give her what you did and do, and she doesn't want to lose it. Two ways to keep it, try and push all of your buttons and get you to cave OR learn a different behavior. Guess which is easier to do, so she is doing that.

If you want different behavior, explain what you want, how you want it, and demand that you get it.

It sounds simple, it is NOT. But, what you are getting is her twisting and turning trying to get out from under the guilt and the sense of loss she feels. Give her a way out, but make it a way that you will accept.

I know this sounds like tough love rather than MB approach, but most people don't understand the MB approach, it is tough, it requires communications, and honesty. What I am suggesting is to do that honestly communicate how you feel about her behavior (A and now) and then tell what you will accept. Make it clear, clean, no insults, no anger. Just matter of fact, the relationship is going to change and it is going to change to suit me or I won't participate.

Hope this helps.

God Bless,

JL

Hi BH,

She is coming off very unstable. She needs a lot of help, and unfortuantly, she isn't listening to what your telling her and twisting what you are. That is a hard place to be in.
She doesn't seem to realize that you need some time to process, heal, get strength. I ask God daily for his help, to strengthen me, to help me to become the Husband that she needs me to be, to help me become the Man God needs me to be.

BH how close is your relationship with God?
Just wondering

The one thing I would start to do is record her calls to you. If she is actually threatening to kill herself and you both decide to end the marriage, then you should be the one with the kids and the house. I would hate to think the type of people she would be exposing your children to.

You have been through a ringer.

She needs more than MC, but IC to focus on her other issues.

I've never heard of doing MC independently. Are you ever in the session together?

Has she ever read His Needs/Her Needs? If not she should.

As for what to do next, depends on you

If you still want the marriage, if you still love her, then you keep trying.
I would recommend that since you have trouble talking, try putting it on paper, your feelings, your pain, your wants, your hopes, your fearsa and your worries. Everything. Proof read it, then give it to her. She seems to be deeply in a fog, not thinking right. I hope that if you can do this that maybe she might start to see. She needs to know that you need time, patience, and love. You gave those to her and you need them to.

God Bless

There’s no doubt she’s unstable. She’s having a hard time giving up control, because she’s always liked to be in control of everything. So, she resorts to ANYTHING to get a reaction from me. Unfortunately, she’s dong much more damage by doing it.

She did come up to work just as she threatened. I was supposed to go golfing with my brother-in-law after work, but she took my clubs. I thought she was going to make a scene at work, so I went to an empty conference room and called her parents. Her Dad wasn’t much help. He actually asked why I don’t just move home for a few days to see what happens. Her Mom called her and I’m not sure what happened. Remember that she claims not to have felt very loved by her parents, so I really don’t think they make much difference.

No, I wouldn’t marry the person I see today, but I’m having a hard time giving up hope that that wonderful person that changed my life is in there somewhere. I can’t imagine how long and tough the road would be to get our pre-affair relationship back. From the way she is behaving right now, she’s looking for the quick-fix. Something that doesn’t really require much effort, but will get her life back to normal.

She claims that I expect too much from her and when she does do something, it not the right thing. I explained that I only want her to follow through with the things that SHE HERSELF promised me she’d do. Here are a few examples of what she promised a few weeks ago:

1. Read Relationship Rescue. She’s still on the same page she was on a few weeks ago. Her excuse? No time to read it. The book stresses the importance of thinking through and WRITING down the responses to the questions. She won’t write anything down because “she’s afraid I’ll read it”. She claims that the Councelor told her that she shouldn’t be expected to write personal things down like that. I don’t buy it. By the way, this is her new tactic: tell me that other people are supporting her opinions and that I’m way off. I personally confirm each one and, so far, none of them appear to be doing this.

2. Call the police and check on the status of the Police Report she filed against the OM.
Her excuse? No time, not important, you name it.

3. Keep a log of her daily activities as part of the Extraordinary Precautions. She claims that our MC told her she doesn’t need to do this. It’s personal information that she doesn’t need to write down. Again, I don’t buy it.

I’ve been clear that these are the things I’ve expected to see completed. She agreed to them and I expect her to live up to them. As you can see, she’s found every excuse in the book to explain why there is no progress. It’s way too much work, right??

Here are her last three e-mails to me. I’ve removed the swear words. It’s only fair to share her side with you:

iS THAT HOW YOU WERE RAISED TO TREAT WOMEN LIKE ****, IS IT. IS THAT HOW LITTLE [***] RESPECT YOU HAVE FOR ME, IS IT? THAT'S eeeeeeeeeeeeeeexxxxxxxxxxxxACTLY WHY I HAVE NEVER WANTED TO PUT MY SELF OUT THERE, BECAUSE I KNEW YOU'D [***] THROW IT IN MY FACE, AND YOU DID EXACTLY THAT. YOU [***]

Just like you say I brought out this horrible behavior in you, this is what you've done to me, it's not [OM], it's you. All I did was love you and pray to God we would get through this. I feel so horrible. I feel so desperate and so bad, so bad I feel like just dying. That's about as humanly possible as a human being can feel. I'll tell you it's not a good feeling at all. Yet, you scream and yell at me that I'm just not doing enough, that I haven't realized the wrongs of my ways. Well, believe me I have. I have to the point that I am at the bottom of the pit and you just keep kicking and picking and making me feel more horrible if that's even more possible.

You took the most vulnerable thing you could find with me and freakin threw it in my face. Want to talk about stooping low.

Again, I swear I didn’t’ say what she accuses me of saying. I didn’t think it or imply it. She drew her own conclusion and now it has become the truth in her mind.

"She just called me and told me that she can’t live like this anymore. She told me that I need to make a decision or else she’s calling a lawyer for a divorce. I told her that I need time to be sure things are going to be different and she says she can’t handle crying & being upset anymore. She actually set a deadline for my decision (before we go to Retrouvaille). She said she doesn’t want to waste the $450 and the time if I’m still not sure I want to be married. The irony is that was the program is for! It is designed as a “last-ditch” attempt to reconcile marriages on the verge of divorce or, in some cases, for couples who have already divorced."

If you feel that you will have to monitor her for the rest of your life to see that she is not having an affair then what is the point of staying married to her. If you are waiting to see whether you can accept the idea that you can stay married to a woman who may continue having affairs then time may help. In my opinion, you need to go into Plan B in which you don't interact (and play detective)) with her so that you can focus on yourself and really think about whether you want to stay married to her. It would also give your wife a chance to repair herself regardless of whether she stays married to you. If she gives you an ultimatum tell her to do what she thinks is best for her and you will do the same. Don't show weakness by apologizing for the action you are taking.

BA :

It sounds like you need to go into Plan B as I syggested earlier. There is too much LB'ing going on.
If the LBing continues, you could be in a position of not wanting to do anything.

Better to retreat than push a bad position.

You cant live your life looking over someones shoulder all the time. She seems to have her problems. Doesn't want to take any responsibility for her actions. Are you sure there is NC at this time. It might be time to add spyware. I would put it in total stealth mode. Its time to find out what is going on.

If you find anything else then yes it does seem to be Plan B time to save yourself and maybe the Marriage.

But if you decide Plan B, she is unstable, she is the one that leaves not you, she needs to seek help, and you must have the kids and protect the kids. I'm not saying you give up counciling. You must continue to heal and recover.

God Bless

What a roller coaster ride this has become. After I left work last night, I was very upset. I didn’t want to talk to her at all that night, but we had to make arrangements for the kids. I tried to keep my cool and explain why I was so upset, but we ended up shouting at each other.

So I spent the night thinking and became very depressed. I ended up crying for probably two hours. I think my anger and resentment have prevented me from really feeling anything else. Last night I was really able to comprehend what was going on. I called my wife while I was crying and she knew I was very upset. She quickly got the kids together and came over to be with me.

It felt good to cry and it felt very good to hold her again. She & the kids spent the night. This morning she had to drive back home and get ready for work, get the kids things together, pick up breakfast, drive back, and then drop our youngest at the sitters while drove my older one to school. I know it was extremely inconvenient for her, but she never said a word about it. She just smiled and hugged me and told me that she loved me. She said she couldn’t handle the thought of losing me and that’s why she keeps doing these horrible things. I know she’s become an expert deceiver, but this was genuine.

I feel so good today…I actually feel balance. I’m actually starting to think of things we can do to make our relationship stronger than ever.

I know I’ve told you about her bad side, but she really does have a very good side. The side that I fell in love with and the side that keeps me with her despite the horrible things she’s done. She is a good person. She is capable of being a loving and caring wife & mother. I know this to be true. Please believe that I’m not being spineless or co-dependent about this. I feel loved and, right at this moment, I feel so much hope for us.

Yesterday afternoon, I wrote her a letter detailing EXACTLY what steps she needed to follow in order to give me any hope that we still have a marriage. Most of it contained things that I’ve already asked her to do and ALL of it was very reasonable. I made it perfectly clear that, if she didn’t follow these steps, I’d immediately end all communication and contact an attorney. I also explained that I still loved and cared for her (several times). I gave her the note this morning and she read it when she got to work. She called me and said that everything was reasonable and she would do those things as long as it meant there was hope for our marriage. She even started reading & following the Relationship Rescue book last night (before she came over & before she read the letter).

She told me how good it feels to think that there’s hope again. She has also agreed to give me time and patience. She said she understands and will not rush me to come home.

Oh, by the way, she is a part-time court reporter and, ironically, she’s covering two bitter divorce cases today. She just called and told me sick she feels picturing her and I going through something like that…

Finally, she’s asked me to go to a football game with her sister & friend tonight. I agreed, but I don’t feel totally comfortable going out with the group. I actually encouraged her to go without me, but she said she’d rather be with me --even if it meant watching the game at home. On one hand, I want to be with her and have fun again, but then I feel I’m being fake and unfair to myself.
How can I have a good time with her after all that has happened? I feel like I have to pretend that everything is okay.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Yesterday afternoon, I wrote her a letter detailing EXACTLY what steps she needed to follow in order to give me any hope that we still have a marriage. Most of it contained things that I’ve already asked her to do and ALL of it was very reasonable. I made it perfectly clear that, if she didn’t follow these steps, I’d immediately end all communication and contact an attorney."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hope you realize that issuing ultimatums can only work if you are prepared to follow through with them for if you don't then you lose all credibility with your WW and then things go from bad to worse because she'll beleive that she can do anything and you will not go through with your threats.

Nope you don't have to pretend everything is OK.

What you have to decide is if you would enjoy being with your W at the game. If so go. If not, don't go.

I realize you are in a darned if you do, darned if you don't position. You worked on your marriage,and the affair continued. It is not a second affair, the first and ONLY affair never ended. Harley states that affairs usually end about 6 months after D-day, but some will last up to 2 years after d-day.

Yes, she is an expert liar. You know that about her, so you have a choice to make. Do you give it another chance or do you just walk because you know she is an expert liar? I cannot answer that for you.

But, I can offer somethings for you to consider. She has agreed to do certain things. How will you know if she does them if you are not around? If you were a bit more selfish (to put this in MB context, if your taker/giver were better balanced) she would be less likely to deceive you.

I realize she likes to get her way, but perhaps you need to explain to her, that her always getting her way is over. The marriage will become more balanced, there will be boundaries of behavior for both of you, there will be mutual respect and give/take on issues and she will learn to respect you even if you two don't agree on a specific topic.

So what has this to do with the football game? Well, do you want to be with her or not? All of the other things sort of boil down to the same sort of questions. Does she want to be your W or not? Does she want a partnership or not? Does she want to be married to you or not?

Simple, direct, and sometimes very hard to answer. If you would prefer to watch the game at home, tell her that.

This brings me to the last issue I wanted to mention to you. You stated in your first post that while she was having the affair, that she often referred to you as "perfect". Does that make sense to you?? Do you know why she had the affair? What about the OM attracted her? You need to know these things.

I will take her word for it. You are a great guy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> But, you obviously didn't check off all of her boxes and that is something that needs to be explored. It doesn't mean you didn't do everything in your power, but as Harley points out, trying to meet the wrong needs or a need the wrong way, often means that the need isn't met although someone tried mightly to do it. What must happen is that the WS or BS must clearly delineate what and how they would like the need met, then it can be met.

Or, perhaps she was looking for a bit of the bad boy, and so perhaps it means you need to step and NOT be so accomodating. I don't know, I am speculating. You should not be speculating. You need to understand why this happened and so does she. Then you two can work on a more concrete relationship.

By the way, how old is your W?

Must go. Decide on the ball game and let her know. You don't have to be all lovey dovey, but if you feel you will be a stick in the mud then don't go and tell her why. She won't handle rejection well I am sure, BUT, if you don't feel like it, then don't. BALANCE the GIVER and the TAKER. If you want to know more about this read the articles here or Harley's book GIVE And TAKE.

God Bless,

JL

Hi BA

TMCM is right,

Well you do need to start having fun somewhere. Going out with others is a start, I would just try to have fun. Both of you need to start reconnecting. She will need IC at some time to deal with her other problems. Maybe you can get her to post on this MB. My wife does. I told my W that I wouldn't read her posts that she could vent or whatever. Just a thought.

God does work in mysterious ways, its a good thing that she is seeing her possilbe future.

God Bless

I wanted to reply to the questions from a few of the last posts:

Are you sure there is NC at this time?
All I know is what she tells me. I’m monitoring everything possible and I haven’t discovered anything in the last 3 weeks. The OM also said he wanted out and I know he’s met someone he really likes. Like last time, I don’t think either one will make contact for the short term. It is the longer-term that I’m worried about.

I think Plan B for my wife would be a total LB. If it isn’t obvious, she needs to know she’s loved and cared for in order to function. In my opinion, Plan B would destroy what’ good is left in our relationship. I’d definitely have to get some legal help if I went Plan B (kids, house, finances).

I need to convince myself that the ultimatum stands, but I know she’d flip out if I went into Plan B mode. I will keep reinforcing the importance of what I wrote and exactly what will happen if not followed. I hope I don’t have to live up to it…

Doing what I feel like and what makes me happy is exactly what the MC is telling me to do. Unfortunately, that’s exactly what she is telling my wife to do, too. That can lead to problems because what my wife wants may cause more hurt for me:

For example, we played on a co-ed softball team last year. When the season started, the OM was on the team. The team also had many single men that she used to play with on another team. She has admitted that after the other team’s games were over she’d frequently go to the OM’s apartment. Finally, last year & this year, the OM’s best friend is playing. The OM’s best friend is another story: we continued to be friends with him after I found out about the affair. He told me that he had stopped the friendship with the OM and I think this is true for the most part. Unfortunately, he did know for a few weeks before I found out and never said anything. I’ve decided to permanently end the friendship --not only because of the distrust, but also for the symbolism and possible communication link back to the OM.

Anyway, the co-ed team is getting together again this year. I already told her that I want nothing to do with the team this year because of the bad memories. Unfortunately, when she got out of MC (IC?) the other day, she announced that she was going to play on the team. She claimed the MC told her that it was okay if it made her feel good. She loves to play, so I’d have no problem if it was another female team, etc. She’s now told me that she won’t play, but it bothers me that she could be so inconsiderate of my feelings.

I think standing up to her is also a LB for her. I’ve done this since the first time I found out about the A. She takes it personally if I don’t agree with her. Keep in mind that the majority of the time we do agree and neither of us is “getting our way”. I will continue to stand up for my opinions & views while respectfully acknowledging her own. On several recent occasions, she’s admitted to the imbalance in our marriage and has promised to change. She said it makes her feel good to do nice things for me.

The football game is just the beginning of all the events she’ll want to do together. There’s a bunch of parties, etc. coming up this weekend. I guess I’ve have to decide what feels right/comfortable as these things come up…
She did call me perfect (the OM even admitted it), but I honestly don’t believe her when she says she doesn’t know what was missing. The OM said it was the sex and everything else was perfect with me. She has mentioned the sex issue many times before, but then she says she honestly doesn’t know what was wrong. I think it was also the OM’s “bad boy” reputation. He is the complete opposite of me and most of his qualities were things she normally hates: smoking, self-centered, bad parent, divorced, no college/career ambition, low-paying job, (I could definitely go on with this list…

If it is the sex, I just don’t understand it. My situation was just like feelingdown’s. I always wanted it from her, was willing to do anything to make her feel good/comfortable. She knew this, but still went out to find it somewhere else? It doesn’t make sense to me.
I do admit that when the A started, we weren’t as romantic as we used to be. It definitely wasn’t what it was like when we first met (or how it was between them), so I think it may have been the passion. In addition, she tells me that she can’t see herself that way with me. That’s why she didn’t have the interest all these years. I think she sees me as her friend/husband/father of her kids, but for some reason is blocking me as the lover. The MC seems to think she sees me as more of a father figure, so I guess that would make sense –except she hasn’t done anything to try to get past this image of me.
Part of my reasoning is that she reached her sexual peak after being married to me for all those years. She wasn’t anywhere close to it when she had her other relationships, so that’s what made it so “good”. It kills me to think about all of these things –let alone post them here.

Yes, I think her participation in this discussion forum would be great, but I honestly don’t want her to see my posts right now (and I know she would want to read them).

I added a signature section to my profile with some stats about us & the A.

Whoops --I copied your signature section and forgot to take this out: FA: March 03 6 times in total

Do I understand this correctly? After all of this with her playing co-ed softball with the OM and going to his apartment after the games and having sex with him at his place; you request that she stop playing co-ed because the OM's best friend is on the team and it brings bad memories to you. You ask her to play on an all female team and she refuses to do so and signs up again to play on the the same co-ed team against your wishes after all this? This is unbelievable!!
You sound like a great guy but if she cannot even do this simple little thing to reduce your trigger and pain then be prepared down the road for things you will not like. She is amazingly selfish and into her self. I feel for you but if the roles were reversed how do you think she would feel if you did these things? I think she wants to maintain her lifestyle and make as few changes as possible. She is laying low now.
She screws the the guy on the team after the games at his apartment and still refuses to quit the team? What a message it sends to you. It is totally unbelievable and cruel to you. I wish you luck because it sounds like you will need lots of it.

BryanP is absolutely right when he said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"if she cannot even do this simple little thing to reduce your trigger and pain then be prepared down the road for things you will not like."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Promises are easy to make but keeping them is another matter altogether. Don't beleive any of her words for they mean absolutely nothing without her actions to back them up.

Quote from BryanP:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">After all of this with her playing co-ed softball with the OM and going to his apartment after the games and having sex with him at his place; you request that she stop playing co-ed because the OM's best friend is on the team and it brings bad memories to you. You ask her to play on an all female team and she refuses to do so and signs up again to play on the the same co-ed team against your wishes after all this? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dear BA,
I am Jaref and I am the WS still in the midst of an A. I tell you this so you will know where I am coming from.

I was married to my H for 10 yrs before I started A (I knew why I had the A). Anyway, after I confesed A the first time to my H, he asked me to give up the hobby where I met the OM. Well, this was the first hobby I ever had on my own and I was enjoying it...and that's what I told my H. So he agreed to let me keep going.

Well, big mistake...cuz the A kept going and going and going...

In retrospect, I can say now that I KNEW that I would keep seeing OM at hobby and that is what I wanted. I think I tried to kid myself that I would not.

Anyway, all I am trying to say is that I think maybe your WW is not wanting to let go fully of OM (eve if she isn't seeing him), so she is staying in her hobby that will allow her to "hear" about OM through his best friend.

Now, with that said, I would say your WW is in the same kind of fog I was in (I drift in and out now), and if she doesn't stop this hobby the A will probably start up again at some point. I don't think she is doing it to be mean to you...I think she is like me. Something's not right. She obviously, it sounds like, ended the A but is having trouble with the NC part of things. (FYI: She's ahead of me)

So...to give you a spark of hope, I will tell you this: the whole time I have had the A (YEARS!) I have never stopped loving my husband. Now there are many here who will say "If you love him so much, why do you keep doing it?" Well, I have come to accept that I have an addiction and need to treat it, and it sounds like your W may be on the same path I have been travelling a long time.

I tell you this: I WISH my H would have made me quit the hobby. Yes, I would have been royally P-ss-d at him, but if he had done this, I don't think I would still be in the same A today. Try not to be afraid (by the way, I say this, but fear is eating me alive!) that your WW will leave because you ask her not to do the hobby...you really could be saving her from becoming me!!!

One more thing:
A lot of what you describe sounds like your WW is trying to manipulate you so she can have her way. Has she sort of been this way throughout your M in other areas? I know that I can be manipulative to have my way and that I have probably been that way throughout my whole M. So, if she has done this throughout your M, try to remember if she has followed through on her manipulative threats in the past. Chances are if she has not, she probably won't this time in this situation, either! Good news for you! (And her!)

" the whole time I have had the A (YEARS!) I have never stopped loving my husband. "

What a joke!

BA:

Know that we understand your situation. At this point, you cannot believe anything she SAYS.

Stop crying. Yes, it is hard. I know. Believe me, I know.

Only action speaks clearest. And that has 0, meaning nothing, to do with what is going on when she sees you are is inconvenienced in your opinion.

Do not issue ultimatums and then waffle. All of her words and other emotions emitted to you mean nothing.

DO NOT BE FOOLED ! Make her earn it. She has to earn it. It is the ONLY way. ACTIONS!

If my words are harsh , they are not intended to be. I just know from where I speak.

Be cool, be direct and follow through. Let her know through your actions that no more will be tolerated. Do not threaten her. Have a Plan and do it. She deserves no warnings about anything. Nor does she deserve any explanations about what you want or do want to do. Get detached.

Pay Jaref little heed. She cannot end her own affair.

In my opinion, she offers no insight into anything on this board.

Hi BA I have tried to read your entire thread so I dont get the wrong ideas, I think you are trying to hard here, I mean when does your wife start trying. She is the one who after all had this affair, lied, keeps lying, and keeps expecting things from you. It seems that when you stood for your rights, and told her you were leaving , that is when she decided to start saying she loved you, and wanted to do things with you. How are the kids in all of this? You should not have to monitor as much as possible, you should be able to trust. I m having prombelms trusting my husband because of his one nite stand and I can imagine how you feel. You two have been to a counsilor, and do you feel things have really helped, or just getting easier to deal with? The om is he married? IM sorry if you have already answered these questions, as i said i just skimmed through. You mentioned being fake and unfair to yourself. You should not have to feel that way ever. About her doing things with the om sexually that she will not do with you, that is just awful. You are her husband she should be pleasing you , trying new things with you, I can understand the excitement of an affair, but the grass is not always greener on the other side, matter of fact the animals probably realize soon , that it is the same ole grass. About the hobby, if she truly wants to work things out, she would stay as far away from the om as possible, included his best friend ,, I think someone mentioned it is just her way of being close without really him being there.Well i wish you the best of luck god bless you and may god help you through this. hurtin