I apologize in advance for the length of this post…

I met my wife almost 17 years ago. We met right out of High School and attended College together. We were engaged after 2 years and married after 4. We have two daughters: 8 and 3.

Up until about a year ago, I though I had the perfect life. I had a wonderful wife, great kids, a beautiful house, a good job that I love (but don’t work excessive hours). I actual thanked God everyday for blessing me with all of these things.

Then, about a year ago, everything changed. I discovered a ton of cell phone records to a mutual single friend. At first, she convinced me that they were getting serious, but nothing had happened sexually. Then, I intercepted some e-mail that confirmed otherwise. Once caught, she admitted that they had been seeing each other sexually for several months.

The lies and deception continued for several months after I found out about the affair. She’d look me in the eyes and swear that I’m the one she wanted, but then would go off and meet him for lunch. Throughout the ordeal, I continued to fight for my marriage. I begged her to come to marriage counseling, read a bunch of books, and constantly reassured her that we could get through this. Initially, she was very cold & distant. She’d waver between he and I just about every day. After a few months, I became fed up and told her I wanted out. She then “suddenly” came to her senses, sent him an e-mail “ending” the relationship and agreed to get help (counseling).

Since my guard was up, I checked everything –e-mail, phone records, redial on the phone. When I went out of town, she was always where she said she would be (usually with the kids). I began to believe that I had made the right decision staying with her. She constantly reassured me that she was much happier and didn’t want anything to do with him. In fact, she told me that it was no longer necessary to attend marriage counseling after a few months. Everything was perfect.

This continued for 10 months. I was almost completely through the pain of the first affair and constantly reassured her (and she reassured me) that we were meant to be together.

Then, a mutual friend told me that she was still talking to him. I was shocked and didn’t believe what I was hearing. When I confronted my wife, she admitted that she began seeing him again a few months after the last break.

Evidently, he was out of work for a number of months, so she’d meet him at his apartment (something I never dreamed to check on). He’d call to our house and block his number and she’d call him from a pay phone. They obviously worked hard to keep this from being discovered again.

She got caught one night when I was out of town. He came over upset and she wouldn’t give him his car keys when he wanted to leave, so he pushed her down and dragged her across our patio. That’s the kind of man that we’re dealing with. She confessed to a mutual friend who couldn’t keep it secret any longer.

This time, I found out a lot of truth about the entire affair. It actually started much earlier than I was told and she admitted that things actually happened in our house (which she denied until recently). I actually received some of her letters to him (he agreed to give them to me) where she tells him that she is going to leave me and that she’d only be happy with him. Most of the letters were written recently. One was written after he pushed her down.

Now, she tells me that she sees the light and wants nothing to do with him. She has done some things to try to convince me she’s serious this time, but I just don’t know. Sometimes she really seems sincere, but other times she gets upset & impatient that I moved out and stopped wearing my wedding ring. She’s even came up to my work and made a scene. She accuses me of being just like him when I’m upset and can’t comfort or reassure her about our marriage.

Right now, I have such a mix of feelings: Anger, resentment, shock, and depression.
She tells me that she never really loved him. She insists that it was more of an obsession.
Our marriage counselor feels that we have a strong “core” to our relationship, but also knows that a lot of damage has been done. I have resolved to myself not to make any major decisions for now. Unfortunately, my wife wants everything to be back to “normal” as soon as possible.
The strange part about this whole mess is that both he and my wife confirmed that she’d constantly tell him that I’m perfect. He’d get very upset about this. If I’m so perfect, how did this affair ever start?

I am now reading “Surviving an Affair” and most of the material makes sense. I honestly believe I followed the recommendations the first time around. I honestly believed I had made the right decisions and was POSITIVE my wife had ended the affair. Now that I found out it was going on for another 10 months without me even suspecting, I have a problem with the part that indicates what to do if the affair doesn’t end (Plan B). Obviously, this assumes that I know that the relationship is going on, right? These two have gotten to be experts at hiding this affair, so how would I ever know it ended? I don’t trust my wife at all anymore, so I almost have to assume that the relationship will never end.

That’s one of my many dilemmas. Any suggestions what to do next?

betrayed,

Welcome to the forum <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

A few questions:

Has the affair supposedly ended again?
You two are currently in Marriage Counseling?
What extraordinary efforts did your wife agree to reassure that the affair was over (obviously, they weren't enough.....are they enough now?)

Here's what I mean. This is from the homesite:

Extraordinary Precautions to Avoid A Former Lover
To help you totally separate from your lover, and avoid the temptation to see him when you crave him the most, I suggest the following extraordinary precautions:

1. Honesty

The first extraordinary precaution to avoid your lover is to tell your husband all about your affair, and the decision you have made to restore your love for him. Then promise to keep telling him the truth about every aspect of your life, so you never again have a secret second life where you are tempted to hurt him behind his back.

Honesty and openness is one of the best ways to prevent yourself from being inconsiderate of your husband's feelings. It was your friend's threat to reveal all to your husband that motivated you to separate from your lover. Your friend wanted to shed to light of day on the things you were doing in secret to protect your husband. But you should do it yourself. Go right to your husband with the facts. If you had been honest about your budding relationship with your lover from the beginning, it would never have developed into an affair.

You may be afraid that once your husband knows the facts about your ongoing affair, he will leave you. Quite frankly, I think he has the right to make that decision. If, faced with the facts he decides to divorce you, you lose your option to restore your relationship with your him. But you simply cannot build a relationship on lies and deception. Dishonesty will never get you to your goal of loving your husband again. So it's better to get all of the cards out on the table now and build your marriage the right way, even if there is a chance that your husband will throw in the towel before you have a chance to reconcile.

Another reason you may be reluctant to tell your husband the truth is that he might have a violent reaction to what you have done. If you are afraid of his reaction, separate from him first, and then tell him the truth in a public place or with friends who can protect you. If your husband cannot control his temper once he knows the facts, then I see no hope of saving your marriage. Honesty is so important in marriage that if the threat of violence prevents honesty, I don't believe you will ever have a good marriage.

Besides, dishonesty does not prevent violence in marriage, it encourages it. If your honesty brings out violence in your husband, your dishonesty would enrage him even more, once he discovers that you've lied to him.

If you think your husband may divorce you or become violent when you are honest with him, I encourage you to be honest anyway, before you begin your plan for reconciliation. If he cannot accept the truth, no plan of reconciliation will work.

2. Account for Your Time.

Once you have established a willingness to be completely honest with your husband, then continue to be honest with him about all of your activities. Make sure he knows about everything you do throughout the day. Give him a complete schedule of your activities, and let him know which of those activities make you most tempted to contact your former lover. Try to avoid people and places that increase your craving to be with him.

3. Spend As Much of Your Time with Your Husband as Possible.

During withdrawal, there is not much your husband can do to deposit love units into your Love Bank. But it still makes sense for you to be together as much as possible. That's because the more you are with him, the less you will be tempted to contact your lover. Try to have lunch together, talk on the telephone several times a day, and be sure to spend evenings and weekends together.

In many cases, I have suggested that a husband and wife go on a three-week vacation together during the first few weeks of withdrawal, just to help the wayward spouse avoid contacting the former lover. I tell these couples not to expect too many love units to be deposited, but by getting away from the reminders of the lover, they find that such a vacation greatly reduces the time it takes for withdrawal. Besides, the distractions of a vacation can often compensate for the depression that accompanies withdrawal, and makes the experience much less painful.

Sometimes a wayward spouse feels like getting away from everyone during withdrawal, and going on the vacation alone. But it doesn't work. It's too tempting to call the lover, and in many cases the lover ends up joining the wayward spouse.

If you go with your husband on this vacation, you will not feel like being very romantic with him. He should expect very little from you, because you will be recovering from your addiction to your lover. It's only after the craving for your lover subsides, and your depression lifts that you will be able to give your husband the opportunity to deposit all the love units it takes for you to be in love with him again.

Of course, your husband must be very careful to avoid making matters worse by saying and doing anything that would upset you. Granted, he may not be very happy about your affair, but if he wants you to love him again, he must avoid withdrawing love units at all costs. He must be with you as much as possible, yet avoid anger, disrespect and demands, which are all Love Busters. He must also be careful to take your feelings into account whenever you make decisions.

If you slip, and contact your lover in spite of the extraordinary precautions you take, tell you husband about it immediately. Then, improve your extraordinary precautions to include the condition that caused the slip. Keep improving them until it becomes virtually impossible for you to contact your lover. A slip will set you back emotionally, but it does not mean that your recovery plan has been ruined. It simply needs an upgrade.

In many cases, I have encouraged couples to relocate to a different part of the country to avoid contact with a lover. It's a good example of an extraordinary precaution upgrade, when it became apparent that contact with a lover could not be avoided when living in the same city. It goes without saying that when lovers are fellow employees, a job change is absolutely essential to marital recovery. How is total separation from a former lover possible when you work together?

You asked if you should avoid using the internet, since it reminds you of your lover, and tempts you to contact him. I'm sure you can anticipate my answer. I suggest that you stay away from the internet until you are through withdrawal, and you have restored your love to your husband again. Then, I think it would be safe for you to return to it again.

Four Rules to Guide Marital Recovery
After you are through withdrawal from the addiction to your lover, your depression will have lifted and you will no longer feel a craving to talk to your lover. At that time you will be ready to put into place rules that will guide you and your husband toward a deep love for each other. After you have followed the rules for a while (six months to two years), you and your husband will be soul-mates.

These are the Four Rules to Guide Marital Recovery that you and your husband should follow to help you restore your love for eachother:

1. The Rule of Protection: Avoid being the cause of your spouse's unhappiness.

If you and your husband want to be in love with each other, you must build your Love Bank accounts. But before you build them, you must be sure there are no leaks in the Love Bank. It's pointless to deposit love units into a sieve, where every deposit is promptly withdrawn by a Love Buster. So you must make a special effort to plug up those leaks by committing yourselves to avoid being the cause of each other's unhappiness.

The most obvious things spouses do to ruin their love for each other is what I call Love Busters. They are angry outbursts, disrespectful judgments, annoying behavior, selfish demands and dishonesty. I describe these destructive habits in my basic concepts, but if you need special help learning how to avoid them, I suggest you read, Love Busters: Overcoming Habits that Destroy Romantic Love. This book will help you identify the Love Busters that keep emptying your Love Bank accounts, and show you how to stop inflicting them on each other.

Most of the Q&A columns I've posted on the Marriage Builders? web site focuses attention on the Policy of Joint Agreement (never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse). This policy protects both you and your husband from each other thoughtless decisions. Your affair was a blatant example of thoughtlessness on your part because you knew it would hurt your husband, but you went ahead and did it anyway. The Policy of Joint Agreement is a very important guide to helping you keep the Rule of Protection. That's because it helps you realize that anything you do that hurts your husband is off limits to you, regardless of how wonderful it makes you feel.

If you had followed the Policy of Joint Agreement, you would never have had an affair. But the Policy will also help you avoid hurting each other in a host of other ways, too. My book, Fall in Love, Stay in Love, can help you learn how to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement, and use it to negotiate agreements that are fair for both of you. Once you learn to negotiate with each other fairly, you will have learned how to follow the Rule of Protection.

2. The Rule of Care: Meet your spouse's most important emotional needs.

The way to deposit the most love units is to meet a person's most important emotional needs. Your lover did that when he wrote you all those e-mail letters because conversation was your most important emotional need. After one month of filling your Love Bank with thousands of love units that were e-mailed to you, you found him irresistible -- you were in love with him.

Conversation is not your only important emotional need. Affection, recreational companionship, admiration and sexual fulfillment may be some of the other important emotional needs that your lover met. Unless your husband eventually meets your must important needs as well as your lover met them, you will be frustrated and at risk for another affair.

Sometimes a spouse must learn to meet a need that he or she has never been very effective in meeting. Many of the spouses I've counseled have had to learn to be affectionate for the first time in their lives. They also have had to learn to be stimulating conversationalists and skilled lovers. They have had to learn to provide greater financial support, become more effective in their parenting skills and learn to become admiring instead of being critical. New habits that lead to need fulfillment can be learned by anyone. All it takes is a plan and willingness to follow it until expert level is achieved.

But your husband may already know how to meet your emotional needs. An important reason that you had an affair was that your husband's work schedule prevented him from giving you the attention you craved from him. When you and your husband agree to follow this second Rule to Recovery, his work schedule will no longer stand between you, because meeting your needs will become your husband's highest priority. All the needs that your lover was meeting for you will be met by your husband in the future.

If you need help identifying and learning how to meet each other's important emotional needs, I suggest you read, His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-proof Marriage. It describes the ten most important emotional needs for men and women, and how to become an expert at meeting those needs. When your husband has learned to meet your needs, he will be depositing so many love units that his account in your Love Bank will be overflowing. By then, you will be thoroughly convinced that leaving your lover to rebuild your marriage was the right decision to make.

3: The Rule of Time: Give your spouse your undivided attention.

You indicated in your letter that it was the lack of your spouse's attention that drove you into the arms of your lover. But it may have been more a lack of time than a lack of attention. As I already mentioned, your husband may already know how to meet your emotional needs, but unless he sets aside enough time to do it, all of his skill does you no good at all. It's the man who gives you time for undivided attention who will win your heart.

I suggest that you and your husband plan to spend at least 15 hours each week together, giving each other your undivided attention. Use that time to meet each other's emotional needs for affection, conversation, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment. I have found that if that amount of time is taken to meet emotional needs, you can spend the rest of your 100 waking hours each week doing just about anything you please, without any risk to your love for each other. But if you do not set aside that time, your good intentions will not buy you a single love unit.

Since most everything we do must be scheduled or we don't do it, I suggest you take about a half an hour each week (say, Sunday afternoon from 3:30 to 4:00) to schedule your time together for the next week. Get out your schedules and write each other into your appointment books. Once scheduled, don't let anything interfere with your time together.

I suggest spending the same days and times together every week because it's easier to remember than a new time each week. Besides, you can be better emotionally prepared to be with each other if you always know that Tuesday evening you will be together from 7 to 10.

I also suggest that you spend time together when you have plenty of energy. Don't give each other the leftovers, give each other the best of yourselves. That's why I generally rule out time together after 11:00 pm. For one thing, you need your sleep for the challenges of the next day, and for another, there are not too many people who are at their best that late at night.

Finally, I suggest that you spread your time out every week, giving each other at least one hour of undivided attention every day. I am generally opposed to cramming all of your time together into a marathon weekend of 15 hours, because undivided attention is required, and 15 hours of anything makes undivided attention almost impossible.

4. The Rule of Honesty: Be completely honest with your spouse.

We have already discussed honesty as an extraordinary precaution to prevent you from contacting your lover, so I won't say much more about it. But what you begin as an extraordinary precaution, must become the standard way you and your husband communicate with each other -- with openness and honesty.

You have not been honest with your husband. If you had been honest, you could never have had an affair. Your honesty is your husband's greatest protection because it lets him know what you are up to. It also helps you both make adjustments to each other. Instead of having an affair, you should have told him how unhappy you were with his negligence of you, and how you were falling in love with another man who would give you his time and attention. If you had ended the budding relationship then, and focused on getting more of your husband's undivided attention, you would not have put both of you through such an ordeal.

The Basic Concepts section of this web site contains a section entitled, "the Policy of Radical Honesty." It outlines precisely what the rule of honesty is. It's complete honesty. I want you to read it over very carefully, because it explains precisely how honest you and your husband are to be with each other.

But be careful not to let Love Busters ruin the purity and value of honesty. Keep anger, disrespect and demands out of your honest expression of facts and feelings. If you can do that, you will find your honesty will not only help you find solutions to your problems, but it will also draw you closer together, and help you become the soul-mates that you can be.

If you are willing to permanently end your relationship with your lover (never see or communicate with him again), get through withdrawal, and then you and your husband follow the Four Rules to Guide Marital Recovery, I guarantee you that you will have a great marriage. And I also guarantee you that neither of you will ever suffer through an affair again.

What a horrible story. She clearly is an excellent liar and does not have any problem putting your health at risk and destroying your marriage. Aside from all of this she decides to have sex with him in your home which should be the one place that should be secure for you. She has disrespected you, your marriage and your relationship. She sounds like a perfect cakewoman who has no problem lying, cheating on you, promising to change and then continues the affair in your home while you are working. I am probably in the minority here but I would contact an attorney and look at your options here and move on. She says you are absolute perfect and then has sex with her lover in your home after you forgave her is too much. My guess is she enjoys the material benefits that you provide her which allows her to continue her affair and disrespect and humiliate you.

You were kind enough to forgive her the first time and this is how she repays you? She clearly is addicted to him for her to do these things to you and in your home again after your forgave her. The chances are pretty good it is still continuing since an addict will do and say anthing to continue their high. I would think long and hard how much you are willing to endure in your life but then again it is your life. What a role model for your children. I wish you luck.

Betrayed,

I went through a similar story although the time is a bit more compressed. I feared the big "Divorce", but to be honest, I am much happier now.

There is no more stomach queasiness, no more worrying about where she is, no more embarrassment. Just freedom...

Let her go. I won't say it as harshly as BryanP, but I definitely understand where he is coming from. There is a point where you just have to cut your losses.

I wish the very best for you...I know what a trying time this is.

A response to star*fish:

Has the affair supposedly ended again?

Yes. She assures me that she wants nothing to do with him anymore. She claims to have seen the "light" about him and, even if we split up, she'd never go back to him. I feel like this is just another page in their relationship cycle.

You two are currently in Marriage Counseling?

Yes, we are seeing the same Marriage Counselor we started seeing last year. At this point, we are going separately. The Counselor is really good, but she feels we have a strong "core" to our relationship and won't recommend a divorce. She's offered to have me see someone else if I don't agree, but so far she has helped me cope with what is going on in my life. Her focus is on us individually and doesn't even want to talk about the relationship at this point.

What extraordinary efforts did your wife agree to reassure that the affair was over (obviously, they weren't enough.....are they enough now?)

The last time, she "allowed" me to turn on call logging for outgoing calls on our home phone. That's about it. This time, she supported changing our home phone number to unpublished and also changing her cell phone number. Unfortunately, he still knows where we live and she still knows where he lives. I also have no way to prevent her from calling him from a pay phone (which is what they did this time around). The extraordinary efforts are a great concept, but I don’t think I really have control. If she has a weak moment, it would be very easy for her to contact him.

Extraordinary Precautions to Avoid A Former Lover

1. Honesty

I’d like to believe that she’s doing this now, but EVERYTHING I know about the affair she never volunteered to me. I caught her, intercepted e-mail, heard details that she later confirmed from the other man, read her letters to him, and badgered her for more information until she finally gave in. But, she’s never simply come up to me and told me something I didn’t already know.
I feel like there’s more details that I’ll never know. She claims that she doesn’t tell me these things because it will hurt me, but don’t I need to know everything before I could ever consider reconciliation?

2. Account for Your Time.

She agreed to keep a log a few days ago, but so far has not produced anything. Her defense is that she’s too overwhelmed with the house, kids, work (she works part time –mostly from home).

3. Spend As Much of Your Time with Your Husband as Possible.

At this point, I’M not ready for this step. I’ve moved out in order to focus on myself.
We have spent some quality time together, but that is usually short-lived. Mostly, this is due to my anger and resentment. Believe me, she wants nothing more than for us to go back to our “normal” life again. I do take the kids as often as I can, but I also need time for myself.

I’m definitely not ready for any of the Four Rules to Guide Marital Recovery. I did all of these things the last time around and only got burned again. I think those rules can actually be affair-enablers.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"I’m definitely not ready for any of the Four Rules to Guide Marital Recovery. I did all of these things the last time around and only got burned again. I think those rules can actually be affair-enablers."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please explain why you beleive this.

Tell her you need to know everything!!!! Every time you find another hidden lie, which sets back your trust of her back to the beginning. It may hurt for the short term but will help build trust over time. Tell her that if she can't tell you everything then she is risking ending her marriage. It is important to know everything. By knowing everything, even if it hurts, you eliminated all of the little secrets that WS and OM have together. This is one of those things that help breaks the bond between the WS and OM. The more you know, the dirtier they will feel. Another idea, would it be possible to move to another city, get a fresh start. (only an idea).

A response to Byanp:

I have to be honest, it feels good to hear your perspective on this situation. Almost everyone around me seems to be encouraging us to work through this. When they first found out last Fall, all of our close friends and family were shocked. They thought we had the perfect marriage.
So did I until this happened.

You’re right –she has become an expert liar. That’s one of my big fears when I think about moving forward.

To her credit, she has done some things differently this time:

1. She assures me that she will continue in Marriage Counseling for at least one year. Even if
things seem to be doing better.

2. She filed a police report against him for pushing her down & dragging her across our patio.
Unfortunately, it was several weeks after it happened so it is her word against his. To date, she hasn’t called to check on the charges –despite the fact that she told me she would.

3. She went to get tested for any time of STD. The last time I had to do that myself. The results were negative on everything (Thank God).

4. She has signed us up for Retrouvaille, which is a Catholic-based weekend session for marriages in trouble. We are supposed to go in a few weeks.

5. She has started doing nice things for me and tells me how good it feels to make me happy.

6. She tells me that the affair is over and God will be her witness of what she does from this point forward.

What happened in our house is something I’ll never forget. She tells me it was one or maybe two
times last year (she still claims not to remember things like this), but it doesn’t matter. It happened and I want nothing to do with that house anymore. It is unfortunate because it was our first and only house and we’ve put so much into it over the years. She doesn’t want to sell it. She simply thinks that I’ll be able to get over my bad feelings in time.

I worry that you are right about her reasons for wanting me. She even told me (and him) last year that she wouldn’t leave me because of the house, kids, and how she’d be viewed by her fairly strict Catholic family. I really question in she’s really doing it because she loves me. I am successful enough to let her stay home full time if she chooses. She works part-time and that helps us go on vacations, etc. I would have had no problem if she wanted to work full-time either. It was ALWAYS her choice.

I have agreed not to make any major steps in any direction for the time being. I thank you again for giving me another perspective on this situation.

I know you are afraid to try again. You have been burnt twice. I have also. But at some point, for your kids sake, you need to make the decisions that YES, I WILL TRY ONE LAST TIME. Let her know that this is it. Also tell her that it will take years for you to truly trust her again. Let her know that things will never be the way they were before because before, she was having an A. If it does not work out, you can at least tell your kids you tried. Kids from a two parent family are far better off then from a divorced home. You need to make the decision to try again and then start trying. It will be hard to put your heart out there again but you must. The rewards far outweight the risk and damage your WS could do. End the end you will be glad you did.

A response to T00MuchCoffeeMan:

quote:
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"I’m definitely not ready for any of the Four Rules to Guide Marital Recovery. I did all of these things the last time around and only got burned again. I think those rules can actually be affair-enablers."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please explain why you believe this.

I did all those things 10 months ago –please believe me. Not to promote another book in this forum, but I read Dr. Phil’s Relationship Rescue and it made so much sense. I accepted the fact that I may have somehow contributed to what happened and focused on showing her that our marriage could be better than it ever was.

Over the last 10 months, it HAS been better. I constantly reminded her how beautiful she is (and she is) and how happy I am with her. She returned the same feelings. She told me all the time how happy she was and how, if she could go back in time, she’d change everything. The irony is that she told me this at the same time she was doing it again.

Her sister told me several times how “love prevails”. She’d say, see? look at how true love gets you through bad times like that. That seemed to be the consensus of everyone around us. It really felt like we were going to get through this and be stronger as a result. What a joke.

When I left for a few days the last time this happened, she was fanatic. She couldn’t deal with the fact that she might lose me. The other man even confirmed this. So I came back and followed all the Rules. I feel this only gave her the reassurance that everything was okay again (with us), so she could re-start the other relationship. I honestly believe that what I gave to her only enabled her to continue the affair. I should have left and let it die a natural death the last time. Unfortunately, I loved her too much and didn’t want to lose her.

A response to hoping4best:

Like Bryanp, I appreciate another perspective on this situation. This is really the “harsh reality” I need to hear, but don’t want to hear.

Although I don’t want to admit that there’s no hope, I just don’t know how we can ever have a healthy relationship again.

I do not trust her, I don’t think she has any respect for me, and she’ll never know what I’m going through. In addition, this time I have a lot of anger and so much more resentment. How could that ever be healthy?

She’s very self-focused, but I feel like I’ve allowed her to be this way in our relationship. My Counselor thinks I’m co-dependent. I always thought it was normal “compromise” in a relationship.

I don’t think she’s patient enough to go through this. She even told me recently that I was “milking it” and there was something wrong with me that I was still upset after 10 months. Keep in mind that I was still upset from time to time about what happened last year. This was before I knew that it was still happening.

She’s in too much of a hurry for me to put back on my wedding ring, move home, and make everything normal again. She doesn’t understand why I need time to myself and accuses me of punishing her or trying to pick up other women (note: I’ve NEVER cheated on her).

On many occasions, I have to agree with your perspective.

A response to hubby:

I’ve told her 100’s of times that I need to know everything –no matter how bad. She continues to insist that I DO know everything, but things keep coming out. I told her that she can’t believe in her heart that she’s ready to fix our marriage if she still has things hidden from me. It would only allow her to lie again because she never really came clean.

I completely agree that every time I find out something new, it only sets us back. I wish she could understand all of this.

As sick as it sounds, I got more truth out of the other man in a 20 minute phone call than I’ve gotten from her since I first found out. Most everything he told me, she later confirmed.

I am very afraid to try again. When I first found out last year, she would promise to end it and then meet him the next day. I feel like I’ve given her 100’s of chances to do the right thing. I told her the last time that this was it. If she ever talked to him again that I would leave. Now, don’t I have to live up to my promise?

I think deep inside she knows that I won’t live up to my threats. I really believe that she thinks I’ll stay no matter what. That’s why I’m so confused and that’s why I posted this to all of you in this discussion forum.

I need to get some work done, so I’m logging off for a little while.

I will respond to everyone who responds to me. Thank you all for your feedback.

Hello,

I am in my office so I can make a few quick comments and again this is only my perspective.
It is clear that your wife cares very deeply for...herself. Her comments are unbelievable.
1) After continuing this affair and getting caught and continuing it again and have sex in your home her response to you is that you are milking it after only 10 months. This shows that she has no conception of your pain and anguish and it is all about her.
2)My guess is that if the OM had not hurt her in your home the chances that it would still be going on.
3)I am in communications and her response to you that she had sex in your home only once or twice and she can't remember indicates she is lying to you about this. You would know exactly how many times if it was once or twice that you screwed your lover in your bed in your home when your husband is gone. The fact that she hesitated with the answer and says she cannot remember indicates it was more than a couple of times. It is interesting that she got hurt by the OM at the home.
4) You indicate she only tells you what you know and you get more truth from the OM than her. She has become a very good liar to you since she has so much practice.
5) She admits she does not want to give up the lifestyle. She makes some effort because she understands the affair for now is over.
6)Telling you she likes the house and that you should get over it time. So what that she has sex with her lover in your home and in your bed indicates how self-absorbed she is about herself and shows how little respect she has for you.

When I read your letter it struck me that you were probably co-dependent. She has an ongoing affair and in your home and there were no consequences to her actions. Your did not make her move out for her to think about what she did.
She then continues to lie to your and continues the affair and gets hurt in your home with the OM and again there are no consequences to her actions again. She should have left for a time. Now she is telling you that you are milking it after 10 months and get over it and enjoy the house regardless that she continue her affair at the house.
The bottom line why she continued the affair the second was because she knew you would accept any of this disrspectful behavior toward you. Your messages indicate her lifestyle is a key and that she is quite cold inside toward you. Her comments toward you are shameful. As long as she knows you will put up with her not having to be honest with you then this is your life. What have been the consequences to her actions toward you? The answer is none which is why she can be so cold in her comments to you. I know this is harsh but this is the way I see it and it is sad that she perceives it this way but you have choices too my friend. She cannot respect you until you respect yourself. I wish you luck.

Bryanp,

Thanks once again for your honest feelings.

I wanted to clarify a few facts (based on what I know today).

I didn’t know about what happened in my house 10 months ago. When I found out this time, she told me a lot more about the entire affair. That’s when I found out about what happened in my house (after badgering her for about 20 minutes). She said it happened last year, 1-2 times, and it was in the basement –never in our bed. The majority of the encounters were at his apartment (which I believe because he’s single and was out of work for about 6 months). She also told me that it started a lot earlier than I knew before. When I ask her how many times, she tells me “a lot”. It used to be numbers (5 times last year, 4-5 times this year). I think “a lot” is much more than 10 –do you agree?

To make a long story short, the other man used to be a friend of ours. He was welcomed into our group, invited to all our parties and hung out with us (close friends & family) on a regular basis. This never stopped when the affair began. He had no problem facing me while doing my wife behind my back. I was nothing but nice to him. This should clarify what kind of man this really is.
He SHOULD have had the decency to stop hanging out and pretending to be a friend when you start doing someone else’s wife. I’ve never hated anyone in my life. I hate him with so much passion that I know I’ll never forgive him for what he did.

Two years ago, I accidentally received an e-mail from my wife that was meant for him. My wife admitted that they were e-mailing each other, but they were just friends. I asked her to stop and she blasted me in an e-mail to him (things like he doesn’t trust me, we did nothing wrong, etc.).
She assured me she wasn’t talking to him until the time I found out about the affair (1 year ago).

During this time, the other man continued to be included in our life. Last summer, he joined our friends and family on a vacation to Myrtle Beach. My wife swore that the sex began only after the vacation. She has sworn to this position since I found out about everything. Well, just about a week ago she confirmed that it actually started the winter before (which makes sense). Here are some examples of the e-mail that she sent to him in March 2001:

I may stay in love with you forever!!!
[unrecoverable part] …that it's so bad, but it's just extremely intense, the whole relationship,...

I could do you 24, 7!!! Would that be alright with you????? You'd be late for work every morning!!!

I discovered these e-mails a few months ago and when she was confronted, she said that nothing was happening at that time. She was upset with me and felt I was still living in the past. I agreed and dropped the entire subject. After all, we were moving forward and things were better now (right?)

I have a ton of e-mail and hand-written letters just like this. I KNOW how she felt, but she claims that she now knows that it wasn’t what she thought. According to her, it was more of an obsession than Love (which I agree).

I hate to continue to bash her because she really does have a good side. She’s become a different person, but now I’m starting to see the person I married again. She really does seem sincere (sometimes) about how horrible she now feels. She does seem committed to anything that will repair our marriage. She now admits being ashamed of what she did. I almost wish she had treated me as bad as last time because it would be an easy out for me. Despite the fact that she’s done all this damage, part of me still believes that this time is different.

I wanted to provide some additional information about something else I don’t think I can get through: the issue of sex.

In my opinion, our sex life wasn’t the greatest before the affair began. I always wanted more, but she wasn't that interested. Obviously, it was great when we first met but it tapered off after a few years. There were times that we’d go weeks without anything happening. I’d try to talk to her about it, but she didn’t want to discuss it. She is also very inhibited with me –she was never really open to trying new things (even minor things). But, I loved her and respected her feelings. I never pushed the issue because, when we did make love, it was usually spectacular.

I also know that she was raised fairly conservatively and had strong values –some qualities that I loved in her. Anyway, I wouldn’t have to worry about her having an affair if she’s not that interested in sex, right? I was dead wrong.

As we’ve gotten older, she actually began to relax her opinions slightly. I suppose the frequency picked up a little, too. That did nothing but reinforce that our marriage was just getting better with age.

The problem was that she always had the focus when we made love. I did everything in my power to make her feel good. Her needs always came first in my mind and my needs were always secondary. I was okay with that because I got so much pleasure out of her pleasure.

When I discovered the e-mail & notes, I was devastated. She was totally uninhibited with this other man (the complete opposite of me). She told him things and did things with him that she’d never do with me –and still hadn’t during the last 10 months. She’d tell me she was uncomfortable doing certain things, but I knew she had done them for him. Once again, I respected her and didn’t push the issue.

For example, before the affair, I wasn’t allowed to talk dirty to her. The e-mail and conversations where nothing but that. She admitted what they talked about and how it turned her on to hear that from him. She also told me that it felt better with him. She told me that she liked certain things that he did –things that I was never allowed to do.

Our Councilor has even suggested that she’s a sex addict --which just tears me apart. How can she be that way with another man, but be so reserved with her husband of 12 years?

Believe me, I tried to offer options to improve our sex life the last 10 months. She just wasn’t interested.

So, not only do I have to deal with the lies and deception of her loving another man, but I also have to deal with the things she gave to him, but can never give to me.

BA the four rules for a succesful marriage cannot be succesful if only one spouse(You) is following them. As proof of this, if your WW had followed faithfully the rule of honesty by itself, her affair would never have reignited.

The rules didn't enable your W's affair, it was her unwilligness to follow them (and MAYBE your unwillingness in not insisting her to follow them as a non negotiable condition for you to remain married to her) that was responsible for her to betray you again.

Your last post regarding your sexual life reminded me of stunned_dad's and silverthorn's stories (both are betrayed husbands). In their cases, both of their wives had been sexually abused when they were young, and practically the same things you said about your W (how she was a willing sexual participant) they said about their WW's as well. I'll see if I can get them to post to you.

BA :

Wow, what a story. I am sorry for your pain. You sound very logical about all of this and it seems that you have taken some steps to get a handle on it all.
I think you made a good first move with getting out of the house for a time. It certainly demonstrates that you are willing to let her see that there are consequences. It is clear by her ability to deceive you twice in such a complete and thorough way.
I think you have some decisions to make soon. But, first I would continue on the path you are on. I wouldn't make it easy for her at all. Make her earn it. Every bit. I am not saying to be cruel or difficult but, she has a lot of proving to do.
And, cover your bases and do not stay out of the house too long.

If you discover that she is again lying, get back into the house and get her out.
Trust me, when I say that when my wife started her affair, I plan A'd her for almost three months,then asked her to leave. Then Plan B'd her for two more.

While my wife had alcohol abuse issues to me it was no diiferent than you.
What I am saying is cover your legal bases and watch your finances like a hawk.
I will be watching to see how things go for you.
Best of everything to you.

I really feel for you. Everytime you write a message you add something. You certainly have every right to be angry with the OM but again the behavior of your wife is unreal. Here she is having sex with this guy and he is allowed to share a vacation with you and your wife. I am sorry but for your wife to allow this indicates that she got some sort of perverse pleasure in this entire situation knowing that she is having a sexual affair with a friend of yours who joins you two on vacation. What kind of a person would do this to their spouse unless they got some sort of perverse thrill in your humiliation? It just seems to me that she was just shoving the affair under your nose in such a way that the two of them must have a good time thinking about this.
How can you possibly believe anything she tells you?
I think you are a kind and forgiving man and I do hope whatever you want happens for you. It just seems to me that she perceives your kindness as weakness and exploits it to her advantage. Make sure you keep your guard up. It is a shame what you have had to put up with and deal with. Her moral compass is so broken. Please establish boundaries and at least contact an attorney to understand your options in the future. Allow her to understand this so she will realize this is no longer a game on how much she can get away with on you. How do you emotionally and physically cope with this and establish an intimate relationship with her now? I am just curious.
I wish you the best.

Betrayed_again,

God, what a sordid mess. Have you told anyone about your wife’s affair? Have you told her parents, her siblings, her friends? Have you told your family? If you haven’t, then you should think about doing so. Get this rotten mess exposed to the light of day.

I would put one of those machines that record all conversations on your home phone, hide it and don’t tell her it is there. Get Spyware for the computer. If you can afford it, hire a PI to follow her for a while. Demand that she accounts for all her time, where she went, with whom she spoke, etc. Get all the facts of her life and use what you find to make your future decisions.

Think about selling the house. It may just become a huge trigger for you. Do you want to go down to the basement and hang out? If she says they only did it a few times in your house, the “few” number probably is just the exponent variable in a power function, as in Z^x.

Protect yourself emotionally and use the information that you gather to help steer your future. I’m so sorry this is in your life.

<small>[ August 26, 2003, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: Hereandnow ]</small>

Hi BA

TMCM said that you need help. I can see what I can tell you.

First off, you need to stop reading those old emails, lock them in a box for now and destroy them when your futher in recovery.

I have to leave in a couple of minutes and really I need to think about the situation. Sort out my thoughts.

I will tell you I have never asked what type of sex was performed during the A, I don't really know if I want to know, I'm not sure if its important for me to know, I may have to cross that bridge when I come to it.
My W started her A on the internet she was used by a predator who reached her heart then got her body. I found a stack of emails over 500+ pages which was 95% sex talk. She never did that for me. She did say the A was not over sex but other needs and I do believe her on that one. The stuff written was to keep the OM happy. He mocked me in those letters and she played along. That truly hurts.

Your W might not be comfortable right now feeling you EN for sex.

I do have some questions that may help me to understand the situation a little better

1. Are your needs for SF being fulfilled
2. Have you talked and shared you feeling with your W about trying new things. (Without bringing up the A or the OM)?
3. Do you realize your not the OM so I wouldn't try to imitate him. Find your own path.
4. How comfortable is she with you touching her?

Currently I am giving my W a (non sexual) massage every night, It helps her to relax, and get comfotable with me. No TV, some scented candles burning, low lights. You might try this. This was suggest by Just Learning and I liked the idea.

I'll check back later tonight. I really need to think about it. I'll answer any questions you have as best I can.

God Bless

Gregg M.,

I’m trying to keep it together. I’m amazed that I can actually temporarily tune it out in order to get through work. In addition, I think I’m still in shock. I’m still absorbing what has happened during the last two years of my life.

It isn’t easy for her right now –she complains about how stressed she is with the housework, kids, and her part-time job. She’s had offers from close family members to take the kids so she can get caught up, but she usually refuses. She’d rather play on my guilt. I do take the kids as much as I can right now. That’s about all I can do after working all day & needing some time away to deal with this situation.

I love my kids and feel horrible that they have to go through all of this.

I’m trying not to be cruel to her, but I can’t help telling her how horrible she’s made me feel (constantly) and how I don’t trust her. If she pushes the right buttons, I end up screaming at her and hanging up. I’m trying not to get personal, but I’m extremely upset. She has been crying a lot and I know I’m making her feel horrible.

I need her to understand that I need my space right now. Instead, she wants to be in my face all the time –telling me how much she loves me & wants me back. Other times, she’s “giving up” because she’s convinced I’m leaving or nothings working. Or she’s killing herself to prove her love to me (both the Counselor and I don’t think she ever would). She’s desperate to get things back to normal ASAP. I honestly don’t think she even comprehends what has happened.

It’s getting harder and harder to catch her in a lie. She’s gotten so good, that I’m worried I’ll never know when she is lying or telling the truth.

So, did I Plan A her for 10 months? During the 10 months, I would have thought so, but how is that considered when the affair goes stealth?

I’ve opened an individual checking account and will have my paycheck deposited into it. I will then transfer money in order to pay the bills. I don’t plan to cut them off, but just want some control right now. When she heard about this, she went crazy. She was so upset she came up to work and caused a scene in the parking lot. She can’t understand why I’d take over the finances because “she never lied or cheated when it came to the money”. I’ve tried to explain that it is all part of the same package –you can’t be trusted at all right now and, for the first time, I’m taking some ounce of control in our marriage. She is still very upset about this arrangement, but did admit that she lent him $100 last year and about another $30 in other occasions.

Her reaction really scares me –why is she so defensive about the checking account?
I asked her that question and she simply responds that it is because she never did anything wrong with the money. I suspect there was something else, but I can’t find any proof.
Any ideas?

Good for you. You are taking control of your life.
It does sound suspicious about her defenses. What a great line: I never cheated on finances (just because I cheated on our marriage). You are empowering yourself. My guess is that you will eventually find something about the finances. If she told you she gave him $130 you can bet on it that it was more. Did she really think she could do all these things to you and there would be no consequences? I think what you are doing makes so much sense. She pushed you to the edge but instead of falling you stood up decided to take control of your life and become proactive. You are the captain of your ship and you will decide if and when you are ready to work on this marriage on your time table. Look closely on the finances and in time the truth will probably come out. Good luck.

Bryanp,

Just to clarify again, there were about 20 close friends and family on vacation. My wife and I were not in the same condo as the OM. She tells me that nothing ever happened between them on vacation, but I find that hard to believe. She was so in love with him at the time and they didn’t try to sneak away to the beach after I’d fallen asleep?

I don’t think she was doing it to be perverse. I think she got to the point where she honestly believed it was okay to have these two lives going on at the same time. Last Fall, she actually asked me if she continue seeing him and stay married to me (multiple times). In our initial marriage counseling, she insisted that she be allowed to “work through her feelings for him”.

I honestly think she lost touch with reality. Her self-focused mind took over and she went after whatever she wanted without EVER thinking of the consequences of her actions. Our marriage counselor feels that she is acting very adolescent about the entire situation. Like a 13 year-old who’s father won’t let her see a guy that she loves anymore. All of her actions seem to agree with this thinking.

I think she does take advantage of my weak points. She knows that I still care about her, so she can play upon those feelings when I desperately need a night to myself. If that doesn’t work, she’ll start calling me non-stop until I talk to her. If she really gets desperate, she’ll start threatening to come up to work or kill herself.

When I stand my ground and refuse to give in, she accuses me of being “just like him”. The majority of THEIR relationship was filled with arguments & fighting. She was also very obsessive –I have cell phone logs where she’d call him 10+ times in a row until he answered. When I leave, she does the same thing to me.

Just to be fair, she does seem very sincere at times. This is the most convincing she’s ever been about how she feels & what she wants (me & our marriage). She tells me she’d do anything now if I’d just give her another chance. Keep in mind that she wasn’t like this at all during the first 15 years of our relationship. She was very loving, caring, and had very high morales. In fact, the first two years we were together, we rarely ever fought. It used to drive my best friend nuts!

There’s no doubt that she inspired me to be the person I am today. She was the reason why I worked so hard to get through school. She’s the reason why I kept landing better & better jobs.
I wanted to give her back all of the good things she gave to me. I felt so lucky to have met a person like her. She changed my life for the better. That I cannot deny.

I understand your pain. My husband never wanted it like me. He did love me but if he wasnt in the mood tooo bad I had to deal with it. It made me very insecure. I on the other hand cheated on him. I didnt enjoy it,never got off but it happened. I wasnt excited like with my husband, because I was and am very in love with my husband. I am sure you must feel so bad that she wasnt there for you but for someone else. My husband tried to cheat on me with my best friend once nothing happened because she pushed him away.I hurt so much thinking that I begged him to be with me but he was never in the mood and to think he tried with her. I was always there anytime anywhere so it hurts. My affair was terrible even though he wasnt there for me I had no right to betray him, it just happened and now i am filled with a very saddening guilt. All I ever wanted from him was him to desire me. I love him and no matter what people say the best sex is a man and a women(in marriage) in love and showing that to one another(Even the dirty stuff).
I know you are going through something that will hurt you for a long time but dont be like me and let it get to you so much that you do something that ruins any self confidence that you have. I feel like the worst women in the world, the worst wife. I am having a very hard time dealing with this but I hope I offered some kind of support for you.

You did the right thing in taking control of the money, for just her admission that she gave him money is one more reason for you to take control of your paycheck.

I suspect that she gave him more than the $130 she's telling you she gave him. I would enquire if there isn't a loan that was taken out by her without your knowledge for if there is then you may be in danger of losing your assets if she were to default on the loan.

BA :
Call it the skeptical lawyer in me...but when someone lies once to me...all of their credibility is lost..for the moment and part of the future..until they can begin to prove I can believe what they say...and usually this has to be backed with action as well at some point...she probably realizes now what she has done,but she is no longer in control....I would suggest at this point to try to regain some control over your angry outbursts with her.

Avoid them.

They could be construed later as something other than just an outburst. You could be viewed as violent.

Do whatever you must to retain control over any contact with her. It sounds like you might be ready to Plan B her. I would prepare for this eventuality, especially if you find out the affair continues on at this point. You will need to move quickly if it is found to be continuing.

I applaud you for retaining control over your finances. This is an important measure of control. Just remember, whenever you take control she will try to guilt you into every aspect of changing your mind.Don't let her.

And, be sure your girls get what they need from you. Especially yoour undying love and affection for them.

Bottom Line- Stay Cool.

Best to you !

Hereandnow,

Yes, the first time I found out, I blasted them both in an e-mail to 5 or 6 of our close friends and family. It was when I first found out that she had slept with him and I was shaking as I wrote it.
The e-mail included one of her sisters. The irony is that her family loves me and actually sides with me through this whole mess. They say that they will stand by me and still be a part of my life no matter what I decide. She was furious that other people knew about the affair. It took months before she stopped hanging that over me the first time around.

This time, a lot more people know. She’s very upset about it and I tell her “what did you expect”?
Her parents now know everything (her sister told them), but she’s very concerned that her strict Catholic Grandparents will find out. They actually live across the street from us and helped us buy the house when we were first married. Her Grandfather is having health problems, so I don’t think it would be a good idea for him to find out. They’d probably disown her if they found out.
But, they know something is seriously wrong and are trying to find out what’s happening. My wife did admit the problems were her fault, but she wouldn’t give them details (I actually give her a lot of credit for admitting fault to them). She keeps telling everyone that we are “working through some problems and everything will be fine”. That bothers me because I feel like she is minimizing the seriousness of the situation.

The worse part is that her Grandparents think I’m beating her. My reputation with her family is extremely important to me. It kills me that they think that about me. I’ve told her that it is upsetting that they think she isn’t safe around me and she says not to worry about it. If I push the issue, she tells me that she’ll tell them everything and then I’ll be responsible if something happens to her Grandfather. I don’t think they need to know the details, but I think my wife needs to tell them enough about the situation, so I can at least be exonerated in their eyes.

I definitely want to sell the house, but we love the area and know we’ll never get as nice of a house for the money. My kids are very well rooted in the community, so I’d be okay just to move to another neighborhood. I know for a fact that she’d resent me for the rest of my life if I made her sell the house. I’d never live it down.

I honestly don’t think she’d call him right now. The last time, she actually stopped (or says she did) for 1-2 months. She knows my guard is way up right now. Anyway, the other man met someone else that he really likes. He has told me that he wants nothing to do with her anymore (which I’ve heard before). She admitted she was very jealous about his new girlfriend. I have notes that she wrote to him about a month ago that show how desperate she was to get him back. So, I don’t think he wants her (for now), so it’s easy for her to commit to the marriage.

If I have to record calls, hire PI’s, etc. what is really left to a marriage? Over time, I feel like I’ll just keep finding the same secrets. When does it end?

Silverthorn,

I needed to know all the details, because that’s the only thing that was “missing” in our marriage.
I’m convinced that this guy used her, too. He got her obsessed and then took advantage of the situation. She admits to that now, but I don’t know if she really believes it. She sounds more like a scorned lover right now. She tells me “I thought he loved me, but it’s obvious he didn’t’…”.

My wife sometimes tells me it was the sex and then changes her mind. She has admitted that it felt much better with him and that she didn’t feel inhibited around him. She tells me that she feels inhibited around me and doesn’t know why. I’ve never done anything to make her feel that way.
Unfortunately, she’s never bothered to get help for how she feels.

Unlike you, she used to tell him that I’m perfect. She claims that she’d never let him talk me down. I never saw anything in the e-mail or letters to prove otherwise. She only mentioned that she was depressed & confused about her marriage. She has also told me many times that I’m much better looking than him. She tells me that I have so many better qualities that we just don’t compare. I know this to be true. This guy is a real loser.

Here are my answers to your questions:

1. Are your needs for SF being fulfilled
I’m not really good with the abbreviations. Can you clarify SF?

2. Have you talked and shared you feeling with your W about trying new things. (Without bringing up the A or the OM)?

All the time! Before the affair, she’d get very upset with me, so I usually gave up. During the last 10 months, she’s been a little more open minded. She bought herself two outfits from Victoria Secret on our last anniversary (when I first found out), but she only wore them once. She tells me that she feels cheap/slutty when she wears stuff like that.

I’ve begged her to tell me what her needs are, but she won’t.

3. Do you realize your not the OM so I wouldn't try to imitate him. Find your own path.

That’s a tough one. At first, I tried to do just that. Now, I’m trying to be myself.

4. How comfortable is she with you touching her?

Perfectly comfortable. In fact, she is definitely changed her tune and is very open minded since I found out three weeks ago. She’s doing things now that she never wanted to do. I feel like she’s just using it as a way to get me back, but its so hard to resist things that I’ve wanted for so long. I’ve actually stopped doing anything that I feel is still uncomfortable with her. I don’t want to take advantage of the situation.

A full body massage is usually how I initiated sex throughout our marriage. It usually got her in the mood and I enjoyed making her feel good, too. She usually didn’t return the favor (massage). I guess she felt the sex was enough of a payback (and, in my mind, it was).

I've got to head out. I catch up on my replies later on.

Thanks again to all of you!

Hi BH

SF = Sexual Fulfillment <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I can understand some of your problems. It is a shame when someone takes advantage of a situation. As I'm finding out my W's A just didn't happen, she was manipulated by a real pro. My W acted totally out of character with the OM. She hates pictures of herself but she sent him several with a digital camera we had. Some of a sexual nature. She would say things to him just to keep him happy. I found some of the pictures and read most of the emails. I'm still reading and trying to understand myself.

I guess you can say they are not in their right minds. Something happens that is twisted. It seems the OP is just out to currupt and fullfeel their own selfish needs. And it seems your wife is still addicted to the "excitement of the illusion".

Do you still read through the emails and stuff?
If you do I would really stop. I'm a very curious person myself but I had to stop reading it because all I was doing was plunging the knife into my open wound.

Are you both in MC, I would find a good Christian counselor.
Just being yourself is enough.

Have to go

God Bless

Hi BA,

Just about bed time, and I forgot a question I had.

What was your W's life like growing up?

My wife had a bad one Poes History I was wondering if there was anything simular in your W's history.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by betrayed_again:
<strong>If I have to record calls, hire PI’s, etc. what is really left to a marriage? Over time, I feel like I’ll just keep finding the same secrets. When does it end?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It ends when you begin to trust her again. You need to know what is happening in your wife's life. You can't believe, right now, what she says. She has said that the affair was over 10 months ago and it wasn't.

Once you verify that she is telling you the truth, then I would stop recording, following, etc. I don't think it is healthy to do these things for a long period of time, but it may give you some peace of mind and help you to reestablish trust for your wife. If you are not comfortable with these things then by all means don't do them. You will have to find some other method to verify that she is telling you the truth. I don't think believing her word is a viable option at this point. People in the "fog" of an affair rarely make rational decisions. Affairs are, after all, based on decption.

Good luck with whatever road you choose to travel.

Feelingdown,

It sounds like we have the same attitude about this topic. She did make me feel rejected and insecure, but I loved and RESPECTED her so much, I accepted it. Again, I always felt that I never had to worry about an affair if she wasn’t really interested. This fact made me trust her even more! I don’t want to take too much away, though. When it happened, it was usually great. That’s probably what kept me on track. I don’t even remember what it’s like to be desired.

We just got back from vacation at the beach a few weeks ago (before I found out again). While on the beach, some of our friends mentioned that a young, attractive girl was checking me out. While that made me feel good to hear it, my wife was livid. She immediately started convincing me that the other girl was fat & ugly. Obviously, I wasn’t interested in the other woman, but it was nice to feel like someone else found me attractive.

I completely agree with your comment:
“the best sex is a man and a women(in marriage) in love and showing that to one another”

I am really sorry for your pain . i know how it feels....
I was seduced into an affair which almost turned physical by a serial cheater. i am her 4 th OM.
now it is history.
After all those , i came here 6 months ago.This is my first post though after reading 80 pages of posts. i know most of what is written here in this board. U have to take pretty hard and nasty stpes to get ur wifge back . she needs ur help. No Plan Aing....
just simple hard slaps to lift the fog.

Lets come to ur problem....
I just do try to give a new view .

1) She is so uninhibited to that dirtbag , bcoz
she just wanted to taste the feeling of being a dirtbag herself. totally opposite to her upbringing and life. (IT can also b called as living ur missed adoloscent)

2)U are a scared child with no spine. u will accept her even if she cuts ur hand. (not my view, how she is seeing u now too...). just knowing ur weak points is enuf to use the switches and making u believe that she is in love with u.

3)She is still do have very very strong feelings for him and in the fog. she wants things to bcome normal to start things again with OM.

4)She just dont have any respect for u .
5) she sees no consequences for her actions at all, and she knows that u will again and again accept her

These are not the words u really want to hear. but they are true to the core.Im sorry buddy

Action Plan:

1) Last time, she bcame fanatic about losing u, but did she end the affair?????, she wants to live both lives. A man for social status and a man for her hidden side. Did she love him? , A big nope. if he cant perfoem well in SF then he will most probably replaced.

She has become a big liar. U will never know whether its a lie or truth. she is playing with ur feelings. she is trying to put the blame on u for the affair.

2) goto an attorney and see ur options. (it is just for her to believe that she is gonna lose u)
Start plan B immediately. do not get into her sweet talking traps. dont fall for her crying.
even if she seems to be sincere. She really has to earn u....... else u will resnt taking her back.these things are not only for her. but for u also to heal out.

3) if possible get a seperation. U goto to the house and let her move out. she must goto the abyss of her life to get back to u and that woderful M. It is not punishing her, u will be in more pain doing all these than her at the receiving end.

4) sell the house. dont give a **** about her feelings towards the house. if u want to have a good M after all these , it is ur feelingd that matter , not her anymore. if she resents , let her. she has to face what she has done. I suspect she must have done that on ur maritial bed. the power- exponenet factor is really true.

5)Let her earn her meal. dont give a penny.
6)take a 180 degree turn. be cold to her. just ignore. after sahutting her out of ur life , go NC.drive her nuts and take a hold on ur life.

If u keep on badgering her , she will go awayu and lie.

if u throw her out , she will beg just to be at ur foot. Then take her into ur heart and make her ur queen.

all the best.
love
dhanush

Silverthorn,

I think my wife’s situation was the same: he was definitely a manipulator. He knew how to play her so he got exactly what he wanted. My wife admits that he played with her mind throughout their relationship (but she also told me the same thing last Fall and then continued the relationship). He’d tell her he loved her and then would talk to her for days or weeks. Then, he’d apologize and tell her that he loved her. She’d come back and the cycle would repeat.

I’m beginning to think that my wife has a problem with acceptance and belonging. I don’t think her parents were very nurturing. They cared about her, but never really expressed it. Her Mom was very self-centered when I met her. She didn’t seem like she cared if they had eaten and was very involved with her own life. Because of this, I think she developed an obsessive need to be loved & cared for. When the OM gave it and then took it away, she became obsessed. She couldn’t stand to be rejected –even when she knew I was still there for her and this guy was a loser. She tells me that she felt trapped, but I still don’t think that excuses what happened. It’s obvious that there was some enjoyment and he met some of her needs –otherwise the relationship would have ended a long time ago.

Unfortunately, she tells me that it did fell “better” when she was with him. So, I can’t believe that she only did these things in order to hold on to him. She told me that she really liked some of the things that he did (which I was never allowed to do).

I agree that she wasn’t in her right mind. I’m still not convinced that she is today. One minute she admits to all the damage she’s done and how committed she it to fixing everything. The next minute, she’s “giving up” and doing whatever makes her feel better about herself. She gets very upset that I don’t come running home when she does something nice or makes an effort to repair things. I haven’t filed for divorce and I constantly tell her that I still love & care for her. Isn’t that enough reassurance from me? I honestly don’t think I can provide any more emotional support at this point.

We are both in MC (separately for now) and our Counselor is very good. My wife is also trying to strengthen her relationship with God. She is committed to going to church every Sunday and has also signed us up for Retrouvaille, which is a Catholic-based weekend session for marriages in trouble. We are supposed to go in a few weeks.

Hereandnow,

Right now, I feel like I’d have to monitor her for the rest of my life. I honestly started to trust her again during the last 10 months (while she secretly continued the affair). She is just so incredibly believable. I guess it is the 15 years of honesty and trust that preceded the affair. I’ll never know when she’s really telling the truth. I’d swear that she was for the last 10 months. That’s why I feel like I’d have to put these controls in place for a very long time.

I have no other methods to guarantee she is telling the truth. She convinced me of that during the last 10 months. I even think I’m still in denial that the affair continued when I thought we were recovering. There were absolutely no signs or clues. Their only slip-up was when he pushed her down & dragged her. She was so upset she called a friend (and the other man’s best friend who I thought was a friend of mine). Her friend is very close to us both and couldn’t stand to see me thinking my life was great while my wife continued the affair. I hear that friend cries all the time and complains that my wife doesn’t know the extent of the damage she has caused. I have to agree.

She just called me and told me that she can’t live like this anymore. She told me that I need to make a decision or else she’s calling a lawyer for a divorce. I told her that I need time to be sure things are going to be different and she says she can’t handle crying & being upset anymore. She actually set a deadline for my decision (before we go to Retrouvaille). She said she doesn’t want to waste the $450 and the time if I’m still not sure I want to be married. The irony is that was the program is for! It is designed as a “last-ditch” attempt to reconcile marriages on the verge of divorce or, in some cases, for couples who have already divorced.

Am I wrong to ask for time? I know she cries all the time and wants me back, but I just couldn’t live with myself if I gave in that easy. I know that I say things that make her feel bad, but she usually does the same to me. She spent 2 years making me feel bad –I only found out recently. I need her to understand that I could leave her for doing these horrible things. She needs to know this. Unless she understands it this time, she’ll never feel the need to stop in the future, right?
I do love and care for her and it kills me to see her this way, but I feel I have to stand strong.
She say that I’m “just like him”.

Hi BH

Yep, as you can see both Poe had some problems growing up. Our mothers were much the same. I just had a better homelife it seems. Still didn't learn to show affection which was and is a problem. (I am learning)

I don't think your W ever gave up contact with the OM. I don't know about now though. I can see and feel in some ways the same about trust. I trust my W, but I an high alert. I do believe my W has had NC since d-day. But, the WS becomes a very good hider and liar.

Its time to tell you W to stop making comparison between you and the OM. If it continues then the really is little hope in recovering the M. It would put me in a very dark mood to have this happening in my life. It is one of my fears and worries. And, my W has never made any comparisons to me. It would be a major LB.

That she says your just like him, this is pure manipulation on her part. How better to know how to push your buttons then your W.
In a loving and non argumentative way you need to talk to her about it.

She needs to know that if she wants you to be the OM that it will never happen. You are a MAN, the om is just human, not a man, has no moral backing, nothing to admire, nothing, and he has never been a MAN.

Also, she isn't the one to make a timetable for you. Both of you are healing at different time tables. She needs to understand this. I would attend Retrouvaille, before any decision is made.

One thing that has helped my W and I is that we do a bible study together. 3 chapters a day, started with John, maybe you should try. Our Pastor had either one of us open in prayer, and I as the spirtual leader closes. You could give this a try. Couldn't hurt.

One thing is that both of you need to follow the four following rules, I would print them out in there entirety. Both of you should read them daily.

The Rule of Care | The Rule of Protection | The Rule of Honesty | The Rule of Time

I’ve been through another cycle today: she calls up crying, asking why I don’t love & care for her anymore. I tell her that I do, but I’m so emotionally drained that I can’t comfort her. She threatens to kill herself and then calls to tell me she’s calling a lawyer to end it all (and end her pain & suffering). So, I tried to call her on my lunch break in order to reassure her that I do care and that I’m having a hard time comforting her after she’s hurt me so bad. Then, she asks how I could have been intimate with her last week if I wasn’t sure what I wanted. I told her that I was confused then and it was fully mutual between us (no one was forced). I then added a comment that she initiated it and she went ballistic. She accused me of calling her a slut (which I never inferred and definitely didn’t say). I’ve now received a barrage of e-mail cutting me down in every possible personal attack possible. This is a new low for her.

I tried to calmly respond explaining what I meant and telling her that I won’t be treated like that and the e-mail keeps coming. This really hurts.

I told her that I don’t want to talk to her for the rest of the day –no matter how bad she felt. At this point, she doesn’t care. She’s more focused on tearing me down in every possible way. Now, she’s threatening (again) to come up to work.

This is what my life has become. I’m definitely at a loss for what to do next.

It seems clear that your wife is unstable. When she does not get her way she threatens to kill herself (emotional blackmail) or then continues to tear you down in everyway possible. She sees her lifestyle being attacked and I think she may still be in contact but is fearful that you will eventually find something dealing with the financials that you have taken over and you will find she gave him a lot more than $130. What is happening to you today is a good indication of what she truly feels and more likely will be your future. Please step back and look at her and who she is and what she has done. The fact that you said you will never be able to trust her again and that she lies too well says it all. Why would you wish to live the rest of your life with such insecurities? In addition, from what has been written it seems that whenever the OM wants her back for some fun she will go running to him.

Let me ask you two things. First, Would you want to marry your wife right now knowing everything you know at this moment about her. Second, how would you respond to someone else who wrote exactly what you have written. It really seems your wife is remorseful for getting caught and having her lifestyle put at risk. She seems quite the actress and is playing on your emotions. It is killing her that she is not in control and you are no longer her puppet. I wish you luck but it sounds like you are handling it correctly. She is showing her true self and her true feelings. She seems so immature and demanding. Clearly she still has no conception of what she has done to you or if she really care that much.

BA,

It is time you took control of this. If she wants a divorce tell her to go get one, and counter file if you don't like the terms and the reasons.

As for her belittling you, this is real simple. Just say you won't tolerate one second more. To pipe down, and stay down. YOU WILL LET HER KNOW WHEN YOU DECIDE ABOUT THE MARRIAGE.

You can do this and NOT LB (love bust), but you must take control. Sit down and explain to her how you expect her to act, when you expect to hear from her, and what you expect for your W to do. If she cannot do these things, then my friend you are wasting your time and this is simply a game she is playing.

She did want you AND OM. Now she has apparently lost OM, but he cannot give her what you did and do, and she doesn't want to lose it. Two ways to keep it, try and push all of your buttons and get you to cave OR learn a different behavior. Guess which is easier to do, so she is doing that.

If you want different behavior, explain what you want, how you want it, and demand that you get it.

It sounds simple, it is NOT. But, what you are getting is her twisting and turning trying to get out from under the guilt and the sense of loss she feels. Give her a way out, but make it a way that you will accept.

I know this sounds like tough love rather than MB approach, but most people don't understand the MB approach, it is tough, it requires communications, and honesty. What I am suggesting is to do that honestly communicate how you feel about her behavior (A and now) and then tell what you will accept. Make it clear, clean, no insults, no anger. Just matter of fact, the relationship is going to change and it is going to change to suit me or I won't participate.

Hope this helps.

God Bless,

JL

Hi BH,

She is coming off very unstable. She needs a lot of help, and unfortuantly, she isn't listening to what your telling her and twisting what you are. That is a hard place to be in.
She doesn't seem to realize that you need some time to process, heal, get strength. I ask God daily for his help, to strengthen me, to help me to become the Husband that she needs me to be, to help me become the Man God needs me to be.

BH how close is your relationship with God?
Just wondering

The one thing I would start to do is record her calls to you. If she is actually threatening to kill herself and you both decide to end the marriage, then you should be the one with the kids and the house. I would hate to think the type of people she would be exposing your children to.

You have been through a ringer.

She needs more than MC, but IC to focus on her other issues.

I've never heard of doing MC independently. Are you ever in the session together?

Has she ever read His Needs/Her Needs? If not she should.

As for what to do next, depends on you

If you still want the marriage, if you still love her, then you keep trying.
I would recommend that since you have trouble talking, try putting it on paper, your feelings, your pain, your wants, your hopes, your fearsa and your worries. Everything. Proof read it, then give it to her. She seems to be deeply in a fog, not thinking right. I hope that if you can do this that maybe she might start to see. She needs to know that you need time, patience, and love. You gave those to her and you need them to.

God Bless

There’s no doubt she’s unstable. She’s having a hard time giving up control, because she’s always liked to be in control of everything. So, she resorts to ANYTHING to get a reaction from me. Unfortunately, she’s dong much more damage by doing it.

She did come up to work just as she threatened. I was supposed to go golfing with my brother-in-law after work, but she took my clubs. I thought she was going to make a scene at work, so I went to an empty conference room and called her parents. Her Dad wasn’t much help. He actually asked why I don’t just move home for a few days to see what happens. Her Mom called her and I’m not sure what happened. Remember that she claims not to have felt very loved by her parents, so I really don’t think they make much difference.

No, I wouldn’t marry the person I see today, but I’m having a hard time giving up hope that that wonderful person that changed my life is in there somewhere. I can’t imagine how long and tough the road would be to get our pre-affair relationship back. From the way she is behaving right now, she’s looking for the quick-fix. Something that doesn’t really require much effort, but will get her life back to normal.

She claims that I expect too much from her and when she does do something, it not the right thing. I explained that I only want her to follow through with the things that SHE HERSELF promised me she’d do. Here are a few examples of what she promised a few weeks ago:

1. Read Relationship Rescue. She’s still on the same page she was on a few weeks ago. Her excuse? No time to read it. The book stresses the importance of thinking through and WRITING down the responses to the questions. She won’t write anything down because “she’s afraid I’ll read it”. She claims that the Councelor told her that she shouldn’t be expected to write personal things down like that. I don’t buy it. By the way, this is her new tactic: tell me that other people are supporting her opinions and that I’m way off. I personally confirm each one and, so far, none of them appear to be doing this.

2. Call the police and check on the status of the Police Report she filed against the OM.
Her excuse? No time, not important, you name it.

3. Keep a log of her daily activities as part of the Extraordinary Precautions. She claims that our MC told her she doesn’t need to do this. It’s personal information that she doesn’t need to write down. Again, I don’t buy it.

I’ve been clear that these are the things I’ve expected to see completed. She agreed to them and I expect her to live up to them. As you can see, she’s found every excuse in the book to explain why there is no progress. It’s way too much work, right??

Here are her last three e-mails to me. I’ve removed the swear words. It’s only fair to share her side with you:

iS THAT HOW YOU WERE RAISED TO TREAT WOMEN LIKE ****, IS IT. IS THAT HOW LITTLE [***] RESPECT YOU HAVE FOR ME, IS IT? THAT'S eeeeeeeeeeeeeeexxxxxxxxxxxxACTLY WHY I HAVE NEVER WANTED TO PUT MY SELF OUT THERE, BECAUSE I KNEW YOU'D [***] THROW IT IN MY FACE, AND YOU DID EXACTLY THAT. YOU [***]

Just like you say I brought out this horrible behavior in you, this is what you've done to me, it's not [OM], it's you. All I did was love you and pray to God we would get through this. I feel so horrible. I feel so desperate and so bad, so bad I feel like just dying. That's about as humanly possible as a human being can feel. I'll tell you it's not a good feeling at all. Yet, you scream and yell at me that I'm just not doing enough, that I haven't realized the wrongs of my ways. Well, believe me I have. I have to the point that I am at the bottom of the pit and you just keep kicking and picking and making me feel more horrible if that's even more possible.

You took the most vulnerable thing you could find with me and freakin threw it in my face. Want to talk about stooping low.

Again, I swear I didn’t’ say what she accuses me of saying. I didn’t think it or imply it. She drew her own conclusion and now it has become the truth in her mind.

"She just called me and told me that she can’t live like this anymore. She told me that I need to make a decision or else she’s calling a lawyer for a divorce. I told her that I need time to be sure things are going to be different and she says she can’t handle crying & being upset anymore. She actually set a deadline for my decision (before we go to Retrouvaille). She said she doesn’t want to waste the $450 and the time if I’m still not sure I want to be married. The irony is that was the program is for! It is designed as a “last-ditch” attempt to reconcile marriages on the verge of divorce or, in some cases, for couples who have already divorced."

If you feel that you will have to monitor her for the rest of your life to see that she is not having an affair then what is the point of staying married to her. If you are waiting to see whether you can accept the idea that you can stay married to a woman who may continue having affairs then time may help. In my opinion, you need to go into Plan B in which you don't interact (and play detective)) with her so that you can focus on yourself and really think about whether you want to stay married to her. It would also give your wife a chance to repair herself regardless of whether she stays married to you. If she gives you an ultimatum tell her to do what she thinks is best for her and you will do the same. Don't show weakness by apologizing for the action you are taking.

BA :

It sounds like you need to go into Plan B as I syggested earlier. There is too much LB'ing going on.
If the LBing continues, you could be in a position of not wanting to do anything.

Better to retreat than push a bad position.

You cant live your life looking over someones shoulder all the time. She seems to have her problems. Doesn't want to take any responsibility for her actions. Are you sure there is NC at this time. It might be time to add spyware. I would put it in total stealth mode. Its time to find out what is going on.

If you find anything else then yes it does seem to be Plan B time to save yourself and maybe the Marriage.

But if you decide Plan B, she is unstable, she is the one that leaves not you, she needs to seek help, and you must have the kids and protect the kids. I'm not saying you give up counciling. You must continue to heal and recover.

God Bless

What a roller coaster ride this has become. After I left work last night, I was very upset. I didn’t want to talk to her at all that night, but we had to make arrangements for the kids. I tried to keep my cool and explain why I was so upset, but we ended up shouting at each other.

So I spent the night thinking and became very depressed. I ended up crying for probably two hours. I think my anger and resentment have prevented me from really feeling anything else. Last night I was really able to comprehend what was going on. I called my wife while I was crying and she knew I was very upset. She quickly got the kids together and came over to be with me.

It felt good to cry and it felt very good to hold her again. She & the kids spent the night. This morning she had to drive back home and get ready for work, get the kids things together, pick up breakfast, drive back, and then drop our youngest at the sitters while drove my older one to school. I know it was extremely inconvenient for her, but she never said a word about it. She just smiled and hugged me and told me that she loved me. She said she couldn’t handle the thought of losing me and that’s why she keeps doing these horrible things. I know she’s become an expert deceiver, but this was genuine.

I feel so good today…I actually feel balance. I’m actually starting to think of things we can do to make our relationship stronger than ever.

I know I’ve told you about her bad side, but she really does have a very good side. The side that I fell in love with and the side that keeps me with her despite the horrible things she’s done. She is a good person. She is capable of being a loving and caring wife & mother. I know this to be true. Please believe that I’m not being spineless or co-dependent about this. I feel loved and, right at this moment, I feel so much hope for us.

Yesterday afternoon, I wrote her a letter detailing EXACTLY what steps she needed to follow in order to give me any hope that we still have a marriage. Most of it contained things that I’ve already asked her to do and ALL of it was very reasonable. I made it perfectly clear that, if she didn’t follow these steps, I’d immediately end all communication and contact an attorney. I also explained that I still loved and cared for her (several times). I gave her the note this morning and she read it when she got to work. She called me and said that everything was reasonable and she would do those things as long as it meant there was hope for our marriage. She even started reading & following the Relationship Rescue book last night (before she came over & before she read the letter).

She told me how good it feels to think that there’s hope again. She has also agreed to give me time and patience. She said she understands and will not rush me to come home.

Oh, by the way, she is a part-time court reporter and, ironically, she’s covering two bitter divorce cases today. She just called and told me sick she feels picturing her and I going through something like that…

Finally, she’s asked me to go to a football game with her sister & friend tonight. I agreed, but I don’t feel totally comfortable going out with the group. I actually encouraged her to go without me, but she said she’d rather be with me --even if it meant watching the game at home. On one hand, I want to be with her and have fun again, but then I feel I’m being fake and unfair to myself.
How can I have a good time with her after all that has happened? I feel like I have to pretend that everything is okay.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Yesterday afternoon, I wrote her a letter detailing EXACTLY what steps she needed to follow in order to give me any hope that we still have a marriage. Most of it contained things that I’ve already asked her to do and ALL of it was very reasonable. I made it perfectly clear that, if she didn’t follow these steps, I’d immediately end all communication and contact an attorney."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hope you realize that issuing ultimatums can only work if you are prepared to follow through with them for if you don't then you lose all credibility with your WW and then things go from bad to worse because she'll beleive that she can do anything and you will not go through with your threats.

Nope you don't have to pretend everything is OK.

What you have to decide is if you would enjoy being with your W at the game. If so go. If not, don't go.

I realize you are in a darned if you do, darned if you don't position. You worked on your marriage,and the affair continued. It is not a second affair, the first and ONLY affair never ended. Harley states that affairs usually end about 6 months after D-day, but some will last up to 2 years after d-day.

Yes, she is an expert liar. You know that about her, so you have a choice to make. Do you give it another chance or do you just walk because you know she is an expert liar? I cannot answer that for you.

But, I can offer somethings for you to consider. She has agreed to do certain things. How will you know if she does them if you are not around? If you were a bit more selfish (to put this in MB context, if your taker/giver were better balanced) she would be less likely to deceive you.

I realize she likes to get her way, but perhaps you need to explain to her, that her always getting her way is over. The marriage will become more balanced, there will be boundaries of behavior for both of you, there will be mutual respect and give/take on issues and she will learn to respect you even if you two don't agree on a specific topic.

So what has this to do with the football game? Well, do you want to be with her or not? All of the other things sort of boil down to the same sort of questions. Does she want to be your W or not? Does she want a partnership or not? Does she want to be married to you or not?

Simple, direct, and sometimes very hard to answer. If you would prefer to watch the game at home, tell her that.

This brings me to the last issue I wanted to mention to you. You stated in your first post that while she was having the affair, that she often referred to you as "perfect". Does that make sense to you?? Do you know why she had the affair? What about the OM attracted her? You need to know these things.

I will take her word for it. You are a great guy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> But, you obviously didn't check off all of her boxes and that is something that needs to be explored. It doesn't mean you didn't do everything in your power, but as Harley points out, trying to meet the wrong needs or a need the wrong way, often means that the need isn't met although someone tried mightly to do it. What must happen is that the WS or BS must clearly delineate what and how they would like the need met, then it can be met.

Or, perhaps she was looking for a bit of the bad boy, and so perhaps it means you need to step and NOT be so accomodating. I don't know, I am speculating. You should not be speculating. You need to understand why this happened and so does she. Then you two can work on a more concrete relationship.

By the way, how old is your W?

Must go. Decide on the ball game and let her know. You don't have to be all lovey dovey, but if you feel you will be a stick in the mud then don't go and tell her why. She won't handle rejection well I am sure, BUT, if you don't feel like it, then don't. BALANCE the GIVER and the TAKER. If you want to know more about this read the articles here or Harley's book GIVE And TAKE.

God Bless,

JL

Hi BA

TMCM is right,

Well you do need to start having fun somewhere. Going out with others is a start, I would just try to have fun. Both of you need to start reconnecting. She will need IC at some time to deal with her other problems. Maybe you can get her to post on this MB. My wife does. I told my W that I wouldn't read her posts that she could vent or whatever. Just a thought.

God does work in mysterious ways, its a good thing that she is seeing her possilbe future.

God Bless

I wanted to reply to the questions from a few of the last posts:

Are you sure there is NC at this time?
All I know is what she tells me. I’m monitoring everything possible and I haven’t discovered anything in the last 3 weeks. The OM also said he wanted out and I know he’s met someone he really likes. Like last time, I don’t think either one will make contact for the short term. It is the longer-term that I’m worried about.

I think Plan B for my wife would be a total LB. If it isn’t obvious, she needs to know she’s loved and cared for in order to function. In my opinion, Plan B would destroy what’ good is left in our relationship. I’d definitely have to get some legal help if I went Plan B (kids, house, finances).

I need to convince myself that the ultimatum stands, but I know she’d flip out if I went into Plan B mode. I will keep reinforcing the importance of what I wrote and exactly what will happen if not followed. I hope I don’t have to live up to it…

Doing what I feel like and what makes me happy is exactly what the MC is telling me to do. Unfortunately, that’s exactly what she is telling my wife to do, too. That can lead to problems because what my wife wants may cause more hurt for me:

For example, we played on a co-ed softball team last year. When the season started, the OM was on the team. The team also had many single men that she used to play with on another team. She has admitted that after the other team’s games were over she’d frequently go to the OM’s apartment. Finally, last year & this year, the OM’s best friend is playing. The OM’s best friend is another story: we continued to be friends with him after I found out about the affair. He told me that he had stopped the friendship with the OM and I think this is true for the most part. Unfortunately, he did know for a few weeks before I found out and never said anything. I’ve decided to permanently end the friendship --not only because of the distrust, but also for the symbolism and possible communication link back to the OM.

Anyway, the co-ed team is getting together again this year. I already told her that I want nothing to do with the team this year because of the bad memories. Unfortunately, when she got out of MC (IC?) the other day, she announced that she was going to play on the team. She claimed the MC told her that it was okay if it made her feel good. She loves to play, so I’d have no problem if it was another female team, etc. She’s now told me that she won’t play, but it bothers me that she could be so inconsiderate of my feelings.

I think standing up to her is also a LB for her. I’ve done this since the first time I found out about the A. She takes it personally if I don’t agree with her. Keep in mind that the majority of the time we do agree and neither of us is “getting our way”. I will continue to stand up for my opinions & views while respectfully acknowledging her own. On several recent occasions, she’s admitted to the imbalance in our marriage and has promised to change. She said it makes her feel good to do nice things for me.

The football game is just the beginning of all the events she’ll want to do together. There’s a bunch of parties, etc. coming up this weekend. I guess I’ve have to decide what feels right/comfortable as these things come up…
She did call me perfect (the OM even admitted it), but I honestly don’t believe her when she says she doesn’t know what was missing. The OM said it was the sex and everything else was perfect with me. She has mentioned the sex issue many times before, but then she says she honestly doesn’t know what was wrong. I think it was also the OM’s “bad boy” reputation. He is the complete opposite of me and most of his qualities were things she normally hates: smoking, self-centered, bad parent, divorced, no college/career ambition, low-paying job, (I could definitely go on with this list…

If it is the sex, I just don’t understand it. My situation was just like feelingdown’s. I always wanted it from her, was willing to do anything to make her feel good/comfortable. She knew this, but still went out to find it somewhere else? It doesn’t make sense to me.
I do admit that when the A started, we weren’t as romantic as we used to be. It definitely wasn’t what it was like when we first met (or how it was between them), so I think it may have been the passion. In addition, she tells me that she can’t see herself that way with me. That’s why she didn’t have the interest all these years. I think she sees me as her friend/husband/father of her kids, but for some reason is blocking me as the lover. The MC seems to think she sees me as more of a father figure, so I guess that would make sense –except she hasn’t done anything to try to get past this image of me.
Part of my reasoning is that she reached her sexual peak after being married to me for all those years. She wasn’t anywhere close to it when she had her other relationships, so that’s what made it so “good”. It kills me to think about all of these things –let alone post them here.

Yes, I think her participation in this discussion forum would be great, but I honestly don’t want her to see my posts right now (and I know she would want to read them).

I added a signature section to my profile with some stats about us & the A.

Whoops --I copied your signature section and forgot to take this out: FA: March 03 6 times in total

Do I understand this correctly? After all of this with her playing co-ed softball with the OM and going to his apartment after the games and having sex with him at his place; you request that she stop playing co-ed because the OM's best friend is on the team and it brings bad memories to you. You ask her to play on an all female team and she refuses to do so and signs up again to play on the the same co-ed team against your wishes after all this? This is unbelievable!!
You sound like a great guy but if she cannot even do this simple little thing to reduce your trigger and pain then be prepared down the road for things you will not like. She is amazingly selfish and into her self. I feel for you but if the roles were reversed how do you think she would feel if you did these things? I think she wants to maintain her lifestyle and make as few changes as possible. She is laying low now.
She screws the the guy on the team after the games at his apartment and still refuses to quit the team? What a message it sends to you. It is totally unbelievable and cruel to you. I wish you luck because it sounds like you will need lots of it.

BryanP is absolutely right when he said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"if she cannot even do this simple little thing to reduce your trigger and pain then be prepared down the road for things you will not like."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Promises are easy to make but keeping them is another matter altogether. Don't beleive any of her words for they mean absolutely nothing without her actions to back them up.

Quote from BryanP:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">After all of this with her playing co-ed softball with the OM and going to his apartment after the games and having sex with him at his place; you request that she stop playing co-ed because the OM's best friend is on the team and it brings bad memories to you. You ask her to play on an all female team and she refuses to do so and signs up again to play on the the same co-ed team against your wishes after all this? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dear BA,
I am Jaref and I am the WS still in the midst of an A. I tell you this so you will know where I am coming from.

I was married to my H for 10 yrs before I started A (I knew why I had the A). Anyway, after I confesed A the first time to my H, he asked me to give up the hobby where I met the OM. Well, this was the first hobby I ever had on my own and I was enjoying it...and that's what I told my H. So he agreed to let me keep going.

Well, big mistake...cuz the A kept going and going and going...

In retrospect, I can say now that I KNEW that I would keep seeing OM at hobby and that is what I wanted. I think I tried to kid myself that I would not.

Anyway, all I am trying to say is that I think maybe your WW is not wanting to let go fully of OM (eve if she isn't seeing him), so she is staying in her hobby that will allow her to "hear" about OM through his best friend.

Now, with that said, I would say your WW is in the same kind of fog I was in (I drift in and out now), and if she doesn't stop this hobby the A will probably start up again at some point. I don't think she is doing it to be mean to you...I think she is like me. Something's not right. She obviously, it sounds like, ended the A but is having trouble with the NC part of things. (FYI: She's ahead of me)

So...to give you a spark of hope, I will tell you this: the whole time I have had the A (YEARS!) I have never stopped loving my husband. Now there are many here who will say "If you love him so much, why do you keep doing it?" Well, I have come to accept that I have an addiction and need to treat it, and it sounds like your W may be on the same path I have been travelling a long time.

I tell you this: I WISH my H would have made me quit the hobby. Yes, I would have been royally P-ss-d at him, but if he had done this, I don't think I would still be in the same A today. Try not to be afraid (by the way, I say this, but fear is eating me alive!) that your WW will leave because you ask her not to do the hobby...you really could be saving her from becoming me!!!

One more thing:
A lot of what you describe sounds like your WW is trying to manipulate you so she can have her way. Has she sort of been this way throughout your M in other areas? I know that I can be manipulative to have my way and that I have probably been that way throughout my whole M. So, if she has done this throughout your M, try to remember if she has followed through on her manipulative threats in the past. Chances are if she has not, she probably won't this time in this situation, either! Good news for you! (And her!)

" the whole time I have had the A (YEARS!) I have never stopped loving my husband. "

What a joke!

BA:

Know that we understand your situation. At this point, you cannot believe anything she SAYS.

Stop crying. Yes, it is hard. I know. Believe me, I know.

Only action speaks clearest. And that has 0, meaning nothing, to do with what is going on when she sees you are is inconvenienced in your opinion.

Do not issue ultimatums and then waffle. All of her words and other emotions emitted to you mean nothing.

DO NOT BE FOOLED ! Make her earn it. She has to earn it. It is the ONLY way. ACTIONS!

If my words are harsh , they are not intended to be. I just know from where I speak.

Be cool, be direct and follow through. Let her know through your actions that no more will be tolerated. Do not threaten her. Have a Plan and do it. She deserves no warnings about anything. Nor does she deserve any explanations about what you want or do want to do. Get detached.

Pay Jaref little heed. She cannot end her own affair.

In my opinion, she offers no insight into anything on this board.

Hi BA I have tried to read your entire thread so I dont get the wrong ideas, I think you are trying to hard here, I mean when does your wife start trying. She is the one who after all had this affair, lied, keeps lying, and keeps expecting things from you. It seems that when you stood for your rights, and told her you were leaving , that is when she decided to start saying she loved you, and wanted to do things with you. How are the kids in all of this? You should not have to monitor as much as possible, you should be able to trust. I m having prombelms trusting my husband because of his one nite stand and I can imagine how you feel. You two have been to a counsilor, and do you feel things have really helped, or just getting easier to deal with? The om is he married? IM sorry if you have already answered these questions, as i said i just skimmed through. You mentioned being fake and unfair to yourself. You should not have to feel that way ever. About her doing things with the om sexually that she will not do with you, that is just awful. You are her husband she should be pleasing you , trying new things with you, I can understand the excitement of an affair, but the grass is not always greener on the other side, matter of fact the animals probably realize soon , that it is the same ole grass. About the hobby, if she truly wants to work things out, she would stay as far away from the om as possible, included his best friend ,, I think someone mentioned it is just her way of being close without really him being there.Well i wish you the best of luck god bless you and may god help you through this. hurtin

Hi BA

From what I read, she has decided not to play softball? Yes, she didn't take into account the triggers that would bring to you. Maybe she see it now.
Maybe you both need to find something else to do together.
I wouldn't worry anything about the OM, heck if I were you I wouldn't contact him ever again. The man is a boil. There is nothing to be learned from the OM.

B_A

have u read my post for ur thread?
If not read again. ITs really really time for Plan B. If u are not ready for that then live a big lie. U are again and again falling into her manipulative trapping. Women do this better. Whjy dont u have some good time alone??? Why dont u go on a vacation/ friends home like??? . Go on NC with her. Show her that u are ready to leave her. She must have been a great women before A. If u want her back u have to Go Plan B. U will do this if u really have loved her.

Its time to regroup your feelings, resources,finances and time to look at your life. The longer u stay in this state, the love for her will soon eveoporate. Taking ur golfing clubs, playing in the team are just big signs. U are tinking abt U LB ing her. Dont u see that shes LBing u in bigge way.

Comparing u with OM ????? Big big big bull****.
Cant u see her ??? U have to kill this women , she is not ur wife.If u really want that Angel before A, u take decisions. Not her.Else u endup big loser

Bryanp,

She’s agreed to not play softball and admits that she knows that whole situation bothers me. One of my requirements in my letter was not to contact the OM in any way ever again. I also included his best friend in that requirement, too. It’s become very obvious to me that we (my wife & I) can no longer have any contact with him. I reiterated the importance of NC with the OM’s best friend again this morning. She told me that she feels bad that she got him into this mess and it really wasn’t his fault. I explained that it doesn’t matter –his symbolism and contact with the OM is enough to permanently end our friendship. She agreed.

Believe me, I feel exactly what you said:

"if she cannot even do this simple little thing to reduce your trigger and pain then be prepared down the road for things you will not like."

I don’t even think she considered the ramifications when she said it. It’s just another example of her self-focused side. She said this at a point when I was pushing her away, so I honestly think it was an attempt to get my attention –not deliberately hurt me. I hope I’m right and she’s beyond this now…

TMCM,

You couldn’t have said it better:

“Promises are easy to make but keeping them is another matter altogether. Don't believe any of her words for they mean absolutely nothing without her actions to back them up.”

I told her the phrase “actions speak louder than words” many times throughout the last three weeks. I’m trying to make her understand exactly what I’m saying. She is getting frustrated because I haven’t really responded to her promises and reassurances. I think she’s finally getting it and has started on the “actions” side of things. We’ll see how long it lasts.

Jaref,

I appreciate your reply –your point of view is obviously unique since you are the WS still in the midst of the A. Hopefully, by you seeing what it does to the BS (from all of my posts), you’ll KNOW that you need to end the A right away. You can’t start to fix your marriage until the A is ended, right?

Gregg M,

I know I can’t believe anything she says, but when does that cycle end? Obviously, if I’m going to do anything towards reconciliation, I’ll have to give her some level of trust. If I think everything is a lie, then you’re right –I should go Plan B. I know it doesn’t seem like it from all of my posts, but she IS acting differently this time around. If I go Plan B, she goes crazy. If I give her just a small amount of hope, she becomes stable, very sincere and, begins working on of my ultimatums. I think I prefer the later option –especially when I don’t feel forced giving her this hope…

I am not waffling on my ultimatums. I have reassured her about the urgency of these ultimatums, but that doesn’t mean I have to be cold & mean until they are completed. If she seems sincere and very serious about doing what ever it takes to fix our marriage, then I’ll agree to give her some signs of hope. I don’t think that is unreasonable.

We went to the football game yesterday and it went okay. No extreme bad or good came out of it. I stayed at our house last night because it was easier to help get the kids out the door in the morning. No matter what, I still have responsibilities as a father.

She started asking about “our” plans for the weekend. I told her that I don’t know what I’m doing and I’d let her know. She agreed to give me my space, but then immediately told me how upset it makes her for me not to wear my wedding ring. I told her that I would decide when I’m ready to put it back on (and it wasn’t now). That ring is a symbol of our marriage that she willingly trashed for the last 2 years. When I put it back on, it will be when I feel we are heading back in the right direction. Again, this is where her actions (not words) come in to play.

Hurtinhart,

The OM is not married. He is divorced and my wife actually e-mailed his ex-wife to tell her what was going on a few weeks ago. His ex-wife described the guy exactly how I always saw him: extremely self-focused (like my wife), bitter and mad the word, thinks the word owes him something, distrustful, and extremely jealous. He knows only how to destroy relationships (his and others around him) instead of knowing how to nurture them. She said getting out of the marriage was the best decision she ever made. It took years of IC to get her back on track.

The MC helps, but we are going separately right now.

I agree –NC is NC. That applies to the OM, his best friend, and any other connections back to the A. I see it so clearly this time around.

Silverthorn,

Yes, she is not playing softball. She says she understands how it hurts me, so she isn’t playing.
I’d like to believe she sees it now, but I thought she saw it before, too.

If we get back on track, I’d really like to find some NEW things that we can enjoy together. I think that added to the strength of our relationship early on. I really hope we can get to that point again.

I asked the OM for the notes she sent him back when I found out this time around. He asked why he should do anything for me (like ruining my life wasn’t enough) and I said that I need to know all that I could about the A in order to make a solid decision about my life. I also gave him my word that I’d never contact him again once he gave me the letters. Surprisingly, he gave me the letters, so even though he isn’t man enough to deserve it, I’m living up to my promise and never contacting him again. I’m a much better person than him and I WILL keep my word.

Dhanush,

Yes I’ve read both of your posts, but I think your recommendations are a little extreme right now. Like I’ve said before, she is not a bad person. I see some hope by how sincere she’s being this time around and by some of her actions thus far.

If I really take your advice, I’d basically be walking away from my marriage –and I’m not prepared to do that right now. But, I DO appreciate yours and everyone else’s opinion.

BA ,from what I've seen here and in my own life, a BS that makes peace with the possibility that his/her marriage may end, is more prepared to deal with almost any eventuality that presents itself in his/her path because s/he has learned to emotionally detach from the ordeal. The BS is less likely to feel the extreme highs and lows produced by the emotional rollercoaster. This emotional control of the BS also scares the living daylights out of the WS because s/he realizes that the BS can no longer be manipulated like in the past and is perfectly willingly to move on if the WS's actions do not match his/her words. Start developing a contingency plan just in case you come to the decision that the marriage is unsalvageable because just like a firearm, it is better to have one and not need it than not to have one and need it.

Oh one more thing, a good way to have your W put her money where her mouth is, is to see how willing she to follow The Four Rules For A Succesful Marriage . IMNSHO thos 4 rules are essential for a marriage to recover from the ordeal of infidelity.

Tomaz and BryanP,
Did I say ANYTHING at all that was not in-line with what MB stands for? NO!!! I was trying to tell BA that there is hope! I was trying to give him the benefit of seeing the mind of a WS. We are not always in our "right mind". I meant no offense to BA by posting - I thought the insight might be helpful.

I am trying to end my A. With the help of others on this board we have developed a plan.

Anyway, this thread is about BA and what is going on with him. I just wanted you to know that I meant no harm and wanted to give a different perspective that I thought would be helpful to him.

BA:

I agree with virtually all of what TMCM has said.
In particular, the piece regarding emotional detachment. That is, stabilizing you and your emotions and family.. I know this is difficult, it took me a long time to learn how to do it.(Ask anyone here)But, once I learned I felt a sense of relief and peace that I had not known for a very long time.
Becoming emotionally detached also has one other benefit besides scaring the daylights out of the WW.
You also begin to think more clearly and make better decisions on what to do. That is why it is so important to learn how to do it.
To address your remark about being mean or cold and family obligations I will say this.
First, what your WW has done is the most cold act one person can do to another in the balance of a relationship where trust and honesty is the only foundation.
Detaching may seem cold and mean to the WW, but this about trying to get YOU in line,not her. She has to realize that there are consequences to her actions of infidelity. This is hard because the relationship of man and wife is so personal and meaningful. If someone you did not care aboutsomeone who did this to you,you wouldn't give doing Plan B a second thought.
However, in my opinion, the solution is the same.
She needs to learn that she could lose it all...and you have to find out how much she wants the marriage and you.
Discussions with her about her remorse and her inactions or actions are good to a point, but they are not proof of her willingness.
As long as the other man is available, regardless of what she says, this whole thing could re-ignite.
Remember, she is not the same woman right now.
She has totally destroyed your trust in her. Do not cry,plead, beg or whine with her. It will not work.Be cool....diplomatic and businesslike with her. You can smile and laugh...but treat her like someone you do not know well...because you do not. That is gone. For now.
FAMILY
Plan B takes into account how to handle children and visitaion and all of the feelings involved. You must discuss with the kids one thing. That both of you love them very much and always will love them. And of course, spend as much time with them as you can.
I am sorry, but this is the only way,and it is very hard. I suspect that all of us here will hammer on this thought for awhile.
MAKE HER EARN YOU BACK. You deserve that much to really know the truth.You are in control here if you want to be. DO IT!And tell her to get some individual counseling while you consider your options and her progress.

TMCM and Gregg M.

I think you are both telling me about the same thing. I completely agree that emotional detachment may be a way to go. That’s how I was becoming up until the last few days, but you see what happens to her. She takes it as rejection and a sign that I don’t want things to work. She completely flips out instead of handling this maturely. When she “flips out”, she starts doing even more damage (calling me non-stop, coming up to work & making a scene, sending a barrage of personal attacks). She completely loses control of her life. Remember that the kids are in the middle of all of this. She admits that she can’t control herself when she feels rejected by me. This worries me. She seems to have a need to be loved & cared for, so as soon as I cut it off, she’ll go looking for it somewhere else. Then, I’ll be blamed for “giving up” on her and she’ll forever believe in her mind that she was trying to make things work and I refused.

Last November, I was to the point where I was ready to walk away. I was honestly to the point where it didn’t hurt me to think of her living the rest of her life with someone else. Even if it meant that I’d be alone, I was almost relieved to finally take control of my life. I felt the same peace and relief that you felt (Greg M). I think she saw this and quickly scrambled to get me back.

This time around, I feel like I easily went back to this emotional detachment, but when I’m in that state of mind, she flips out. Her threats to leave me, go back to the OM, or find someone else don’t affect me. At least all of these things would be visible to me. The thing that worries me is the most is the hidden things. I can’t deal with any more secret relationships behind my back.

Emotional detachment is a real LB for my wife. So, do I continue down this path –despite the fact that I know it may ultimately destroy any chances at reconciliation or do I give her some glimmer of hope, but not too much so she can focus on getting help and proving things are different by her actions?

She needs to get help for herself before we can consider things like the Four Rules, right?
Despite the fact that I’d like to jump right back in and start fixing things (I’m usually like that), I have to resist trying to fix our marriage until I have proof that she’s willing to do the same.

I’m wondering if the football game was a mistake. When we share these small, but meaningful good moments together, she begins setting unrealistic expectations. She tells me “I thought we were going to start working on our marriage”. I tell her that we are, but I need to know for sure that things are going to be different this time. She asks how long that will take and I tell her that I don’t know.

She’s focusing on the wedding ring today. She says she understands me needing space & not moving home, but can’t understand why I won’t put it back on. I tell her that it is a symbol of a marriage that I’m not sure about anymore. When I’m sure again, I’ll put it back on. She tells me how upsetting it is for me not to wear it and I remind her how much more upsetting it is for me to deal with what she’s done to our marriage the last two years. When she threatens to stop wearing her rings, I say “go ahead”. I think she’s worried that I’m trying to pick up other women since it “appears” I’m not married.

I told her I felt like I was being pushed again and that I’d let her know if/when we’d do something this weekend. It’s obvious she doesn’t like to live this way. She said that she wanted to go camping or to an amusement part during the long weekend and I said that I can’t commit to something like that. Maybe we can have a campfire & watch a movie, but I’m not comfortable with something that I couldn’t easily leave (or any type of social function).

I have another question about emotional detachment: how do you know when to stop?
How do I know when I am ready to start working on my marriage again? From everything I’ve hear, you get to this state and stay there until you see (or don’t see) the desired results. What are those results? What if the results are there and then they begin to taper off? That’s my dilemma right now –I don’t know if what my wife is doing is enough to convince me things are different.

Last time I was in this state and she began doing all the “right” things. So, I started focusing on my marriage again and showing her how good it could be. Unfortunately, after a few months she said everything was fine and ended MC. To be honest, I believed it. We both were happy and seemed to be doing better than ever.

I now know that the MC cannot end for a long time –even when things are looking better, but what about the logs, monitoring, etc. Is it okay for her to get comfortable in our marriage again and feel she doesn’t have to work as hard? I feel like that’s what will happen because that’s what happened last time.

I feel like the emotional detachment (or even Plan B) is something I’d have to turn on and off until I get the desired results and I’m not sure this is the “right” way. To be honest, she’ll go a day or two doing the “right” things and giving me hope. Then, she’ll do something stupid and make me turn the other way. I know I’m wavering (NOT WAFFLING), but I just don’t’ know when it is the right time to begin fixing things again.

She really does seem sincere and has started proving it with her actions –is that enough?
What if she begins to lose interest or tells me that there are too many expectations?

I also have a question about emotional detachment.

If/when the BS manages to pull away for a while just for their own protection from the pain, and instead of being concerned the WS only becomes angry and indignant at how badly THEY are being treated -- what do you make of that?

Great comment from PsychoB.

It is interesting about the wedding rings. She apparently had no problems wearing her wedding rings and screwing this guy for the past two years so clearly it has very little significance to her. Yet she he asks you to wear your wedding ring not because it is a great significance to your love and vows toward each other but rather she is worried that some other woman will think you are a single and thus your wife feels she may lose her meal ticket. This is an example of the comment that PsychoB just made to you. Your wife is a manipulator and a survivor and she thinks of herself as the number one priority. You gave her forgiveness and she repaid you by doing it again. Someone once said that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. I do wish you luck but so much of her statements indicates it is all about her and her happiness and very little about you except as a provider of a nice lifestyle. These are just my thoughts.

I get the feeling that you are confusing emotional detachment with acting being cold and aloof and they are not the same. You can be emotionally detached while on the outside you appear to be concerned OR you can appear to be cold and aloof while inside your are a seething emotional volcano.

Emotional detachment IS NOT a BS manipulative tool to get the WS to do what you want her to do. It IS a coping tool for the BS to help him/her deal constructively with the ordeal of infidelity. If the WS reacts negatively to the BS's peaceful behavior induced by the emotional detachment, then the WS will have to learn to accept it or it is going to eventually push the BS towards chosing divorce as the best choice in his/her life.

<small>[ August 29, 2003, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

I also agree with PsychoB.

That’s exactly what is happening for me --if I retreat for my own protection, I get accused of being the bad guy. She just did it again.

TMCM.

I think I understand what you are saying.

So, I can retain an emotional detachment, but still be kind to her. I can even see her, hold her, and do things that may improve our marriage without losing the emotional detachment?

If I understand correctly, it is more of a state of mind than an outward reaction. If I feel I can walk away at anytime no matter how good or bad it gets right now, then I think I’m there. Even during the “good” times, I still feel like I could walk if things suddenly turned bad again. Or I could walk if she started going back on her promises or, worse case, re-starts the A.

Am I understanding correctly? If so, I think I’m there.

Since this last time I’ve found out, I feel more in control of the situation and less depressed. I have my sad moments, but I’ve actually been surprised how removed I feel from the situation. Just my posts to this board reinforce (to me) that I’m trying to work with a clear head and open mind. I thought I’d be a crying wreck over this, but I’m not.

Even the thoughts in my head about them together don’t seem to shock me as much anymore. As bad as it sounds, I’m almost used to it by now. Even getting through the day at work isn’t as difficult as last time. I can easily tune everything out and act normal.

When I do get sad, it tends to be over what I’ve already lost (the innocence of our marriage, the trust in someone I love, the knowledge that things will never be the same). I don’t feel as upset thinking of losing my marriage or wife right now. Both are not what they were before. I know this will change if/when I begin to heal our marriage, but for now it helps me cope (and stand my ground).

Bryanp,

I’ve told her the same thing about the Wedding rings a ton of times before. She claims she never took them off when she was with him. I don’t buy it. He’s so jealous and possessive that I know he would have made her take them off.

In addition to being perceived as single, I think the lack of ring represents a constant reminder that things are seriously wrong. She wants so bad to sweep this under the rug and get our lives back to “normal”.

You’re right: she is a manipulator, survivor and extremely self-focused, but I still believe that she loves me. She’s attractive enough to find another person to support her lifestyle (obviously not the OM because he’s dirt poor). If she really didn’t think she could be happy with me anymore, I think she would have walked a long time ago. We had a great, loving, caring relationship years ago. I think she now sees that the “passion” of the A doesn’t hold a candle to a mature, caring relationship.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"TMCM.

I think I understand what you are saying.

So, I can retain an emotional detachment, but still be kind to her. I can even see her, hold her, and do things that may improve our marriage without losing the emotional detachment?

If I understand correctly, it is more of a state of mind than an outward reaction. If I feel I can walk away at anytime no matter how good or bad it gets right now, then I think I’m there. Even during the “good” times, I still feel like I could walk if things suddenly turned bad again. Or I could walk if she started going back on her promises or, worse case, re-starts the A.

Am I understanding correctly? If so, I think I’m there"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Correct on all counts grasshopper. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

BA,

I think Coffeeman has got you on the right path. The sad thing is that you ARE NOT going to be emotionally invested in this marriage any more. She is for her own reasons. What you don't have quite sorted out is that she needs you much more than you need her. Yes, she can find another guy, but if he is a decent guy,she will do the same, if he is like OM, she will be miserable. Actually, no matter what the odds are high she will not be a happy camper, unless she sorts herself out.

You on the other hand what women are looking for, stable, loving, financially stable, etc.

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I now know that the MC cannot end for a long time –even when things are looking better, but what about the logs, monitoring, etc. Is it okay for her to get comfortable in our marriage again and feel she doesn’t have to work as hard? I feel like that’s what will happen because that’s what happened last time.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">AH, I think you missed the point. She is NOT supposed to work hard, or even be accountable to you on a daily basis IF the marriage does recover. It you cannot envision the situation where you trust her, then you are ready to go.

What I think you are missing is YOU are NOT going to rebuild this marriage. SHE is going to rebuild this marriage. The first time around was on you, the second time is her. She wants you around wearing the wedding rings, the she is going to have to come up with ideas that will make you comfortable in the marriage, and trusting her. If she doesn't, YOU are not a cop, you are not her prison guard.

I am all for being kind, and giving another chance, but the issue is another chance at WHAT? I feel that when you decide you are ready SHE is going to have to present you with HER plan to make you comfortable in this relationship and she will have to continue to make YOU comfortable. In return you will be a loving husband. If you are uncomfortable, then divorce her. It is in her hands and you should place it there.

You could for example explain that you won't be back until you feel better and have healed from the damage she has done. You won't stay unless her plans to make you comfortable in this relationship in fact do that. If they don't there is no reason to stay. You are not her parents, her prison guard, and you won't endure abuse, humiliation, or any of the other games she has played so far. If she wants the marriage, then she has some planning, proving, and actions to consider and execute.

This is where the detachment that Coffeeman comes into play. It is NOT disengaging, so much as being willing to define your boundaries and leaving if they are crossed. I would not make a habit out of leaving and coming back. I would decide when enough is enough, and divorce her.

I will tell you I my experience I and my W have been friends with two couples and both W's were just drop dead gorgeous. Both thought rather highly of themselves, and both had deeply devoted hard working H's. Who to be honest were not fashion models in their day, but were like me: perhaps acceptable is the term. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Both ladies decided to step out and have some fun,and both were in their mid-40's and could pass for much younger, some good Doc's helped in this matter. They just up and left their H's and destroyed them, and the adult children. No worries right. Well, they both divorced and one of them is still living and sharing time with original OM who won't ask his W for a divorce. The other has now been through quite a few men and cannot seem to find the "right" guy. I will point out that all are now in their 50's.

The two guys? Well, it took them a few years but both lost their jobs, started their own companies and are successful and extremely happy in their NEW marriages.

My point?? If your W cannot make you happy and comfortable in your own home, then given what she has done to you TWICE, I would leave. She needs to know that the pressure is on HER. If she is unstable and truely LB's all of the time, then she hasn't a clue.

BA, this is like selling, you can sell anything if you give it away, but if you want fair price you need to be able to handle the pressure. It seems your W is happy in the marriage as long as she gets her way, and you give away all that is of value to you.

I recommend that you continue counseling, talk with your W about what her role is GOING TO BE. And then you won't have a hard time deciding to stay or walking. She will make that decision for you. It is after all UP TO HER now.

God Bless,

JL

To Jaref:

Why are you addressing your coments to me? I do not recall making any statement to you on this thread so why the attitude toward me?

I'm sorry, BryanP...I meant to respond to Gregg M and Tomaz.

To Jaref:

Apology accepted.
Have a nice day.

"She claims she never took them off when she was with him."

In my opinion, it makes it even worse because she still went ahead and did the unthinkable even though the ring should have been a reminder that she had taken marital vows to be faithful and not commit adultery.

I agree with Tomaz that it is worse because she said she never took off her wedding rings when she was with him and being intimate with him. If this is the case then it simply indicates that the wedding rings have absolutely no significance or meaning to her whatsoever and she never gave it a second thought while she was having sex with the OM for the past two years. It is therefore ludicrous to believe that it hurt her for you to take off your wedding rings unless it meant the possibility that she might lose the economic benefits of a spouse that was horribly betrayed by her. In short, her words do not match her actions. I wish you luck.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by betrayed_again:
[QB]I apologize in advance for the length of this post&#8230;

DEAR BETRAYED AGAIN:

Thank you for not leaving her. I think it is only by the Grace of God you didn't leave her.
What I don't see often on this marriage builder site is spiritual advice.
YOUR WIFE NEEDS TO KNOW THAT she not only has severely damaged a marriage, but she has RISKED LOSING HER SOUL. Does everyone think that we live FOREVER? Doesn't everyone know that our bodies age and eventually die? DOESN'T ANYONE REALIZE that there is a GOOD CHANCE we have to give an ACCOUNT for our words and actions?????????????????
I have heard that we are not damned, but that we SEND OURSELVES TO HELL. Many who have died in car accidents and on operating tables say the same thing: We review our lives at the end and we feel the pain we have caused in the lives of others and we come to UNDERSTAND how we ABUSED LOVE. We become so ashamed of our wicked ways, we cannot stand the sight of God--pure love and unfathomable light.
YOUR WIFE IS SO INCREDIBLY BLIND to her own actions.
YOUR ONLY HOPE is to beg God to open her eyes. She is not only screwing her own soul but also the souls of her kids.
All I can think of to say is MERCY, MERCY, MERCY!!For the sake of HIS SORROWFUL PASSION, HAVE MERCY. Oh God, restore this woman's sight!
Bless you for staying with her. Bless you!

SAYno2Divorce if were only that easy to get through a foggy minded WS head, then affairs and marital recovery would not be the ordeals that they are. But sadly, many WS's are just too addicted to their selfishness that their loved ones pain doesn't matter to them. Leaving a spouse is always the last resort, and it's done after so many unsuccesful attempts by the BS to reach out to the WS. If betrayed again reaches the point where he concludes that his WW is not going to put the effort to rebuild what she has destroyed, then we must respect his decision whether we like it or not.

SayNo:
I have to concur with TMCM. We offer guidance her for those that seek it. If BA decides he cannot continue for reasons he cannot control (like further betrayal), then he will make his own decisions. We are given free will. Respect BA's ability to use his as we are free to use ours.

Dear BA!

I am a lurker of many years here at MB who seldom posts. But having read this whole tread I feel your wife have been painted evil from to many of the posters. I am not WS, but I have read quite a lot of posts from women in her position, and I have learned much in doing so. It is not difficult to try to understand her world right now. I do not know her apart from the glimpses you have given of her. But from these I do not see a cynical cheater riding out this storm and waiting for another chance to cheat in the future. On the contrary, I see a wife who love you and (now) know it.

She was fooled by her own hormones and by Satan to do some very selfish choices. And then, when she had taken the bait, she found herself addicted. The biochemistry of an affair is very strong. It is of the same kind that people experience in the “in love” phase of an early relationship. These hormones relax after some time in a marriage and are replaced by another kind of “staying love”. People in affairs often say: “I have never felt this way”, “We were soulmates”, “a meeting of souls”, We were meant for each other” and so on.
What they experience is this strong chemistry. I think God has given this chemistry to new couples to cement their relationship for life. But in the A it is miss-used since it spent outside the marriage. People in an A miss-read this “high on hormones” experience as love.

Having put herself in this situation, your wife finds herself thorn between the deep old love for you, and the addictions to the hormones. And she is unable to chose. So she rides both horses and refuses to see that this is in itself a choice. One can not honour the marriage and at the same time have an affair. We humans have an enormous capacity to fool ourselves. You are hurt by all her lies to you. She has lied even more to herself!
She is not an evil person. She is a good person caught in a web of her own lies and her hormone addiction. In this delirious state of mind, called “fog” her at MB, almost any self-illusion is possible. The most stupid thoughts are considered obvious truths or reasonable requests etc. It is a kind of madness.

After D-day #2 she suddenly finds herself forced into the real world, and she has to face some ugly, ugly truths. Truths about herself and what she has been capable of doing. What she has done to her marriage, to you, and to her own integrity. And also the truth that she very well may loose you. All these truths are too much to her at the moment. Too overwhelming, and too painful. So she partly closes her eyes to the first set of painful truths. But she can not ignore the danger of losing you. She must do something! And realising this she panics!

We adult people think we are so reflective and wise. Yet we very often behave just like children. I have five kids. They are well behaved and they know they are loved. But I have made an observed with all of them when they were small: If we parents were to busy, say we have to prepare our home for guests. The small kid feels that we are busy. She (he) feels we have no time for her and feels rejected. And she becomes increasingly clinging and provocative to be noticed from us. We parents are busy and give her a toy to distract her. She feels even more rejected, and becomes more clinging, more provocative etc. The kid is really crying: “Give me some confirmation of your love to me, please, please!» But the language does not communicate to the busy parents. Had we spent 120 seconds to give her a hug and a kiss and a calm explanation, then perhaps the kid had relaxed!

I think your wife’s behaviour is an example of the same psychological reaction. We are not logical beings. So try to understand her. She knows what she has done is terrible. She hates herself for it, and she is very much afraid that her actions will drive you away.

My advice is contrary to what many here have given to you. I say you should give her some emotional confirmation that you still love her. You saw the effect when she saw your tears. She is most certainly now afraid that you hate her for what she has done. Show her (not just tell her) that you still love her. I think she is too afraid to reach out to you. She expects to be rejected. (And reads that into all you say, even if you don’t say it). So, like the child, she provokes and clings to you. Her strange and provocative behaviour must be read in this light. When she said she did this out of fear to loose you that is correct. Like a bird in front of a snake she is paralysed, and she is unable to do the obvious actions to counter the treat (of loosing you.)
And like the kid her actions are very counterproductive to her goal.
We humans are strange beings!

Reach out to her. Touch her in a non-sexual way. Give her hugs. Massage her shoulders. Stay close to her when she is around. And say that you love her. Be open about your fear of loosing the woman you married, and let her see your emotions and tears. Allow yourself to be week.
I think then that all what you expect from her will then be given freely. On the other hand, if you insist that “she was the one to brake it, she must fix it”, you may find that the she is paralysed with fear. The panic and the expected rejection from you will prevent her from giving what you expect from her. And her hurtful actions and words will continue.

If you confirm your love, and give her closure, she may later be able to face the truths she now ignores, like the pain the A has given you, and her ownership of the A.

May God give both of you the courage to take the first step!

Sorry for the length of this post, I was carried away!

Once again, thanks to all who have posted and given me advice.

Just Learning,
So, I ask again, when is the right time to become emotionally invested in the marriage again?
Emotional detachment is a great tool when the WS isn’t interested or serious about fixing the marriage. But, what happens when the WS seems genuinely focused on the solution this time?

Part of me wants to hold on to this marriage, but I see so many obstacles. Because of my resentment and betrayal, I feel I sabotage any positive efforts. Part of me doesn’t even want to try to fix our marriage because I’m upset of how uncaring and self-focused she has become.
But, she continues to do things that make me want to give her another chance.

If I give her another chance, I cannot continue to be completely emotionally detached, right?
I understand that you feel she should have to do all the work, but is that reasonable? Won’t anyone give up if they continually try to fix something and the other person doesn’t do much more that sit by and watch? A marriage can’t be fixed by just one person, but I just don’t know if I can honestly do it when I have so much anger, resentment, distrust, and pain over this ordeal.

Up until I discovered the A the second time around, I still had deep resentment and pain over the whole ordeal. I thought of doing something nice for her and, half the time, I’d talk myself out of it. I’d think: why should I do something nice for her when she’s done so much harm to me and our marriage? I know this is a selfish view (and I’ve never been this way before), but this time it will be 100 times worse. I can’t fix a marriage with that attitude. If I combine these feelings with the distrust and constant monitoring, I just don’t see much “good” to come for years.

Part of me sees so much more hope by walking away. There’s no doubt that I feel it would be the easier path to take. She is showing me all the things she’ll do this time to fix things and make our marriage better than ever. I believe that right at this moment, she is completely focused and honest about what she’ll do. Unfortunately, those commitments require work and I feel she’ll gradually lose interest as time goes by. Other life demands will begin to take priority over our marriage and things will go back to being the same.

I don’t want the same marriage I’ve had for the last few years. I want something that makes me feel loved and DESIRED. I want someone who thinks about me and does nice things for me just to make me happy. I want someone who acknowledges the things I do for her and my family –someone who cares and supports the things that interest me. She says she’ll do all of that this time around, but I just don’t buy it.

SAYno2Divorce,

As far as my faith goes, it was what kept me in the marriage the first time around. I felt that I made a promise to my wife and God to stay with her through good times & bad. I felt good that I could make things better with His guidance. I loved her so much, I knew she’d eventually see that I’m the better person. Well, after all my sacrifices and efforts, she continued the affair for another 10 months.

Do you think that sometimes God wants something else for us?

I agree with TMCM and Gregg M –there should only be so much betrayal and pain before the BS takes another path. I’m not sure if I’m there yet, but I hope He gives me the guidance. I pray that He can show me the way because this will be one of the biggest decisions I’ve ever had to make.

BA, Frank57 brought some very valid points but I must stress that without any concrete actions from her part that prove she is committed to rebuild what she has destroyed, then all the beautiful words that come out of her mouth are nothing but empty statements. Let's face it, if it were up to her she would chose to have you and the OM in her life satisfying all of her needs, and until she shows you with her deeds (follow a marital recovery plan based on the four rules for a succesful marriage) that she no longer wants to be a cake walker, you are better off to emotionally detach from her before you lose all you love for her.

BA one of the many good things about emotional detachment is that it prevent you from raising your hopes up at the littlest sign of improvement from your WW and then have them come crashing down in flames back to Earth.

It also keeps your negative emotions like resentment from taking over and blasting her with love busters which can kill any desire on her part to rebuild the marriage.

Emotional detachment keeps you in the 'show me more' frame of mind before you start trusting her again. If the marriage is to survive she is going to have to show a consistent pattern of behavior before you can be sure that she is a woman worthy of your love.

Give yourself a timeframe, like a year, before you make any decision to continue the marriage or end it once and for all. During that time you will be preparing yourself for any way that the marriage may go, and it will make the transition to move on much, much easier for you will know that you gave it your best.

<small>[ September 01, 2003, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

HI BA

TMCM is giving you good advice. A timeframe for her actions to prove what she says. Without giving any time you will never know.

-quote-----------------------------------------
I don’t want the same marriage I’ve had for the last few years. I want something that makes me feel loved and DESIRED. I want someone who thinks about me and does nice things for me just to make me happy. I want someone who acknowledges the things I do for her and my family –someone who cares and supports the things that interest me.
-----------------------------------------------
Hey you and me in the same boat there. My marraige in the last few years has been fairly loveless. I initiated any form of affections.(Not enough and not the way she liked it it seems) We drifted apart. I really wanted to get closer to her but just didn't know how.
I can't return to the old marriage, and if that is all I can hope for then I would leave. I do have hope and faith for the future though. I think you do also otherwise you would have been gone. I hope your W can raise to your expectations but I would plan for the worse. Be prepared. People are giving you wise advice on that one.

<small>[ September 01, 2003, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: Silverthorn ]</small>

I also suggest that start keeping a daily journal to chronicle the good and bad events and interactions with her. This will help you spot any trends or patterns of improvement, deterioration, or stagnation so that when you ultimately make your decision, pro or con, it will be based on solid evidence and will not on one bad event or interaction. It can also give you some emotional boost if you do spot some significant improvements in her behavior as well.

BA,

Don't have much time before I leave on a trip, but I would like to address some of the things you asked and mentioned </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, I ask again, when is the right time to become emotionally invested in the marriage again?
Emotional detachment is a great tool when the WS isn’t interested or serious about fixing the marriage. But, what happens when the WS seems genuinely focused on the solution this time?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You will become reengaged as your W makes you comfortable and loved in the marriage. Does that mean you don't allow her a chance. That is your call. Frank has some good thoughts for you to think about and so does the Coffeeman.

So what I would suggest is that you think about what they are saying and see if you can combine the best of both suggestions. Once you have this sort of figured out, then I would like to recommend that you talk to your W. If you decide to give her another chance, the explain to her what you want the marriage to be for you and for her. It needs to be a win-win situation. If she feels she cannot do it, you have your answer. She needs to know that you can and will walk if YOU are not happy in the marriage. THis is NOT a threat, it is an honest statement of your feelings (if indeed you feel this way). She needs to know that you will engage in rebuilding but emotional reengagement will only come when you feel comfortable, safe, and love in the marriage.

It is a trust issues isn't it??

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Part of me wants to hold on to this marriage, but I see so many obstacles. Because of my resentment and betrayal, I feel I sabotage any positive efforts. Part of me doesn’t even want to try to fix our marriage because I’m upset of how uncaring and self-focused she has become.
But, she continues to do things that make me want to give her another chance.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Talk with her about your feelings and your concerns and yes your love for her, but mostly of your lack of trust for her. She needs to see hope, but she also needs to see the damage. I don't be mean or LB her and that is crucial to the disengaging while still in the relationship. You must not LB. You can express how you feel, but do it kindly, lovingly, and honestly.

If she does focus on you, show her your pleasure in doing this. You might come to realize that all she really needed was training and that she can learn to derive enjoyment from making other people happy, not just making herself happy. This is something someone can learn, but it does require positive reinforcement.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I give her another chance, I cannot continue to be completely emotionally detached, right?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, you can. I think you are missing what some of us were telling you. Let me offer you a famous quote by Elie Weismann (I think I spelled his name correctly): The opposite of love is not hate, it is indifference.

What people are telling you when they say detach is to accept the possibility that divorce is the best way, and be ready to walk away. However, that doesn't mean you cannot give her another chance. It means you do it with "reservations" about her sincerity, but you do it knowing you can leave.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand that you feel she should have to do all the work, but is that reasonable? Won’t anyone give up if they continually try to fix something and the other person doesn’t do much more that sit by and watch? A marriage can’t be fixed by just one person, but I just don’t know if I can honestly do it when I have so much anger, resentment, distrust, and pain over this ordeal.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah! BA you are coming to the "crust of the bisquit" here. You need to heal and this takes time. The healing must occur whether you are in the marriage or not. So this will occur.

What you can do is let her make plans and discuss them with you for her showing you that she is earnest and honest this time. What you can do is tell her what you are feeling and that you are working on YOU right now to handle the resentment, distrust, and pain. That you are trying not to LB her, but she is going to have to carry the load of rebuilding while you heal.

By doing this you are part of the rebuilding, but you are addressing yourself, she is going to have to addresss the marriage and you. It is not a hopeless situation, but it is one where she must drive the bus. She must come up with plans for you two to do, she must ask and discuss with you ways for you BOTH to feel better and more comfortable in the marriage.

Her doing the work means she is the one to iniate alot of the discussions and the efforts to rebuild. It does not mean you won't help, engage in conversation, you should support her. However, your major goal is to heal and lose the distrust the pain, and the anger. It is best for you to do this whether or not you stay in the marriage.

So again this requires communications. I would suggest that you explain to her that you spent 10 months doing your best working on the marriage, while she just went along for a ride and continued her A. This time the success of this marriage depends on HER commitments, her efforts, and your ability to heal from this betrayal.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Up until I discovered the A the second time around, I still had deep resentment and pain over the whole ordeal. I thought of doing something nice for her and, half the time, I’d talk myself out of it. I’d think: why should I do something nice for her when she’s done so much harm to me and our marriage? I know this is a selfish view (and I’ve never been this way before), but this time it will be 100 times worse. I can’t fix a marriage with that attitude. If I combine these feelings with the distrust and constant monitoring, I just don’t see much “good” to come for years.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It will take about two years to really rebuild this marriage. But, if she wants to try you should join here. I would also suggest that your reluctance to do something nice for her was to some degree a result of her continuing the A. You felt this reluctance because you didn't feel her full love for you. I am guessing that you knew that all was not right in your marriage even after d-day #1. Hence your reluctance.

I think that this time if she is really trying you will see, feel, and notice the difference in her actions and her behavior toward you. I suspect you actually will have an easier time showing her your love, because she will be showing you her's. Yup, the old GIVER/TAKER thing again, but don't worry you are human, and it does swing.

What you want is for your G&T to be balanced and hers to be as well.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Part of me sees so much more hope by walking away. There’s no doubt that I feel it would be the easier path to take. She is showing me all the things she’ll do this time to fix things and make our marriage better than ever. I believe that right at this moment, she is completely focused and honest about what she’ll do. Unfortunately, those commitments require work and I feel she’ll gradually lose interest as time goes by. Other life demands will begin to take priority over our marriage and things will go back to being the same. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah! the other demands taking priority. I think here is where the POJA comes into play. Other things CAN NOT take a higher priority, even children are of a lower priority. Why? Because if the are the highest and the marriage dies, the kids are actually hurt worse than if they were the second priority and both you and your W are there to take care of them. Life is a team sport.

And if she doesn't do the work, or sort of stops, then you do leave. That is where the detachment does come in. You can give her another chance, you can work on the marriage, AND you can leave. You can keep all of these options open. If she does the work, you will find that option three will be less attractive.

BA, your marriage will never be like it was. You will now always be ready to leave, but because you now know that she can effectively leave, and you can leave, it means that perhaps both of you will take better care of the marriage, via honest and open communications, sharing your feelings, and working through the rough spots together.

I don't know if I have made you more confused or helped clear things, but that is my best advice at this time.

God Bless,

JL

Frank57,

I agree that the “high” you get from a new relationship plays a powerful role in what my W did the last two years, but I refuse to treat it like it is some inescapable power that she could not resist. In this day and age, it is too easy to transfer blame to something/someone else. She may have been in a fog, but she knew what was going on the whole time. I refuse to believe she was incapable of making conscious decisions because of these strong emotions. If humans couldn’t resist feelings like that, our society would be in chaos.

You’re right --she is not an evil person. She is a good person that continued to make very bad decisions about her life & marriage for two years.

I do tell her and show her that I still love her and care for her, but I don’t want to jump back into a relationship until she fully comprehends the damage that has been done and what it is going to take to recover. I want to show her that there’s still hope, but at the same time make sure she knows that there’s no easy fix to the problem this time.

TMCM,

I’m working hard to stay emotionally detached from her, but it’s not easy at times. I don’t want to be branded as cold or distant because I don’t respond the same way to her. If I’m emotionally detached, then I can’t really show much emotion on way or another. I could see how she’d interpret that as not caring --don’t you?

It would be tough to stay emotionally detached for an entire year. I know you can consider it “show me more”, but it could also be interpreted as “I don’t care right now”. Somewhere I have to show more hope as she keeps her promises and things improve, don’t I?

TMCM/Silverthorn,

I like the idea of a timeframe, but I think a year is a little long. I’d like to give it 3 months to see if she keeps to her promises. Why wait a whole year if, after 3 months, nothings changed. Do you agree?

Silverthorn,

Yes, it sounds like we are going through the same situation. Since the first time I found out about her A, I’d ask what I could do better and she’d tell me she didn’t know. I explained that I couldn’t make our marriage better unless she told me what I could do better as a husband. I think she expects me to know already, but that couldn’t be further from the truth.

I actually read a book called “What Women Want” to try to get a better idea of how to meet her needs. They had some good suggestions, but most were little ways to improve a relationship (and I did try many of them). Most were common sense (IMO).

I do have some hope for the future, but I KNOW I’d be happiest starting out brand new. I know I can’t just pick up and start over completely, but I want new routines, new surroundings. Something that won’t remind me of what happened, but instead a place for new memories.

Selling the house seems like it would be an easy option, but we’ve got so much invested into it (financially, historically) that it would be a very tough decision to make. I don’t think we’d get a house even close to it for the money. We’d basically be downgrading without any financial benefits. That’s a tough reality.

If money and comfort didn’t matter, I’d sell it in a heartbeat. Just living away from home part of the time brings so much peace to me. When I’m away, I feel so much promise and excitement about my future. It feels just like it did when we were first married and first living in our house. On the other hand, when I’m home I feel overwhelmed and stressed.

TMCM,

The daily journal is a great idea. At this point, all the good & bad days seem to run together. I can’t even remember the topics of our disagreements, etc. a few hours after we have them.

Just Learning,

I have told my wife what I want out of our marriage and what I want out of my life (many times). I tell her I want to start brand new –even if it means selling our house, etc. I want to feel like things are different in my life. I want to be excited about a new chapter instead of trying to make sense about what has happened to the old one.

I also tell her about how hopeless everything seems at times --how I feel so resentful and betrayed that I don’t even want to give it another chance at times. I think she’s clear on my feelings at this point. I can’t believe that telling her all that isn’t a LB. I don’t say it in anger. I usually tell her calmly, but hearing that from your husband has got to be a LB no matter how it is presented. Don’t you agree?

Threatening to walk if I’m not happy would be perceived as a threat in her mind. At this point, she’d probably flip out if I left. She feels that ending the A is enough to keep me around. She wants to focus on the future and keeps telling me that “time will tell”, but I tell her that so much damage has been done. I’m having a problem with the future because I’m still dealing with what already happened. Simply ending the A is not enough to fully convince me that we can save our marriage at this point (and I’m not convinced that happened either). None the less, I still do have some hope….

Yes, she need to understand that our time apart is not a punishment (like she thinks), but time for me to heal. I tried to explain that moving home right now would result in more damage because of my anger and resentment, but I still don’t think she understands.

You are exactly right about the priorities. I know that she can’t escape the fact that she has children, a job, and a house to take care of, but I feel like it is such a crutch sometimes. I KNOW she can make time for our marriage if she wants to. She just took a nap for a few hours, but is now telling me all the things she has to do tonight. I’m really getting sick of hearing about how much she has going on in her life. I have a lot going on, too. I do my best to help her with the kids, house, etc. despite what I’m going through. I know this sounds selfish, but I honestly believe it’s just another way of avoiding the “work” associated with fixing our marriage.

By the way, I have some new information for those of you who have been following my story...

My wife’s Dad pressured her to tell the Grandparents what was going on. If you recall, they are the fairly strict Catholic Grandparents who live across the street from us. We’ve been very close to them over the course of our marriage. They were getting very upset about the situation and started drawing their own conclusions (i.e. that I was beating her).

She basically told them that she had a “friendship” with the OM that I asked her to end many times. She admitted she continued the “friendship” after she promised to stop and now sees the errors of her ways. She tells them that she knows she’s destroyed my trust, but we are “working through it”. She also admitted that the OM pushed her down and how she filed a police report against him. So, she basically told him everything except admitting to a full-scale affair. They seemed to be okay with this explanation and now understood why I was so upset.

At this point, I think that’s enough. I didn’t ever want them to hate her, but at the same time didn’t want them thinking badly of me because they didn’t know the details. I think her having to admit what happened to her family will only steer her away from doing this again. I hope.

Dear BA
My point was not to suggest that she was not responsible for her actions. She had ample time to reflect on them during two years.
My point was for you to understand her present paralysis regarding doing the right actions to restor your thrust in her.
Discus this with her. Let her read what i wrote and ask for her thoughts on it.

My parayers go to both of you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"I also tell her about how hopeless everything seems at times --how I feel so resentful and betrayed that I don’t even want to give it another chance at times. I think she’s clear on my feelings at this point. I can’t believe that telling her all that isn’t a LB. I don’t say it in anger. I usually tell her calmly, but hearing that from your husband has got to be a LB no matter how it is presented. Don’t you agree?"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have you read the Harley book 'Love Busters'? I ask because it seems that a lot of folks get confused with what a love buster is. Here are the basic types of love busters:

1. Angry Outbursts - Who wants to live with a time bomb?

2. Selfish Demands - Who wants to live with a dictatotr?

3. Dishonesty - Who wants to live with a liar?

4. Independent Behavior - Who wants to live with a selfish jerk?

5. Disrespectful Judgements - Who wants to live with a critic?

6. Annoying Habits - Who wants to live with a leaky faucet?

Expressing your feelings without angry outbursts, selfish demands or disrespectful judgements is NOT a love bust, but being dishonest with her about your feelings IS.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Threatening to walk if I’m not happy would be perceived as a threat in her mind. At this point, she’d probably flip out if I left. She feels that ending the A is enough to keep me around. She wants to focus on the future and keeps telling me that “time will tell”, but I tell her that so much damage has been done. I’m having a problem with the future because I’m still dealing with what already happened. Simply ending the A is not enough to fully convince me that we can save our marriage at this point (and I’m not convinced that happened either). None the less, I still do have some hope…."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are absolutely correct that simply ending the A is not enough to save the marriage. To save the marriage, BOTH of you must go through marital and personal recoveries, otherwise it's just going back to the way things were before her A, and setting yourselves up for another repeat A on her part or a so called 'revenge' A on yours. You KNOW this to be true because if she had at least followed the Rule of Honesty, then her A would not have reignited.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, she need to understand that our time apart is not a punishment (like she thinks), but time for me to heal. I tried to explain that moving home right now would result in more damage because of my anger and resentment, but I still don’t think she understands.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Separation is always risky, and Dr Harley states this himself in What Are Plan A and Plan B? Maybe she is afraid that you may get to like it too much that you may decide to make it a permanent situation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are exactly right about the priorities. I know that she can’t escape the fact that she has children, a job, and a house to take care of, but I feel like it is such a crutch sometimes. I KNOW she can make time for our marriage if she wants to. She just took a nap for a few hours, but is now telling me all the things she has to do tonight. I’m really getting sick of hearing about how much she has going on in her life. I have a lot going on, too. I do my best to help her with the kids, house, etc. despite what I’m going through. I know this sounds selfish, but I honestly believe it’s just another way of avoiding the “work” associated with fixing our marriage."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This paragraph says it all as far as why you need to emotionally detach from her. Her unwillingness to work on rebuilding the marriage is not a good sign of things to come. The sooner you accept this, the better you are to do what is necessary to protect you and your children. Furthermore, your W needs to know that there can be NO back to 'normal' until she does her share of the work to rebuild the M. So many BS, like yourself, fail to enforce the issue of a marital recovery plan that they let the WS have his/her way and later regret having done so. Enforcing does not mean you demand it from her, but that you simply refuse to continue in a marriage where you know that your W is not serious about resolving the issues that caused her A.

I recommend that you read Mortarman's thread in the Infidelity General Questions II forum. He and his FWW are having some problems in recovery and you will see what I mean when I say that recovery is not a cakewalk. I especially liked his last post in which he talks about his W's consultation with Steve Harley, and how Steve asked his W what was her plan for returning to the marriage and she responded that she didn't have any. This is consistent about what Steve's father (Dr Willard Harley) says about why not having and implementing a marital recovery plan is the reason why many marriages fail to survive infidelity. So if you want to do your part in saving your marriage, do not let your W manipulate you into beleiving that there is no need for a marital recovery plan.

And as far as not having time to work on the marriage, it may do you well to calmly and respectfully point out to her that despite all of her duties and responsibilities, she did make time to have an affair, didn't she?

<small>[ September 03, 2003, 10:51 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

TMCM,

Well, I just returned from IC and told our therapist about me posting on this board and the feedback I’ve received. She really liked the idea and supported some of the recommendations --especially Emotional Detachment.

She also came to the same conclusion that her behavior and actions are very consistent with someone that was sexually abused when younger. It’s interesting that she’s said this before and you’ve also pointed out other related examples on this board. I’ve asked her about this (when things were calm & safe) and she says that nothing like that ever happened. She admitted that she doesn’t remember a lot of details about her childhood (which is a sign of abuse), but she feels she’d remember something like that. Our therapist feels that there is something deeper than just the A, but she’s got so many walls up she can’t quite figure it out.

Our therapist also recommended that I continue to take time for me to heal. She doesn’t want me to do anything drastic or even start fixing the relationship. She wants me to get individual stabilization before we start talking about the relationship (which I agree).

My wife is now accusing me of not caring about her. She tells me that she is doing everything I’ve asked, but it’s just not enough in my mind. I told her that I see when she is doing those positive things, but she thinks I should be moving home and putting back on my ring because of them. I told her that all I can do is stay put and acknowledge the small steps she is taking. I can’t go running back because she’s been able to commit to some of the things she’s promised for a few weeks. I don’ think she understands and perceives my emotional detachment and need for space apart as a sign that I don’t care anymore. She’s now very upset and told me not to bother coming over tonight to see the kids. She’ll be doing something else with them…

I truly understand the LB’s and how they can cause more damage. That’s why I want time apart, so I can avoid the angry outbursts, etc. If I have some time to calm down, I’m a lot less likely to say those things. I can talk to her calmly and maturely if I just have the space to defuse. She just doesn’t understand and still sees our time apart as punishment and “not caring”.

So far, I feel like I’ve developed most of our plan to recovery. To her credit, she has done some things on her own, but is it unreasonable to expect more? I don’t want to be too demanding, but I feel that she continues to do the bare minimum to show me she’s serious. Maybe I’m just too demanding right now…?

She is afraid that I like the separation too much. She continues to accuse me of “picking up other women” because I won’t wear my wedding ring. Most of the time, I don’t go out anywhere or, if I do, I go out by myself. For example, last night I went for a long bike ride, came back and watched TV, and then went to bed. Not really the life of someone looking to “pick up” someone else.

The priority thing really bothers me. I feel like she is being forced to do the little things she is doing (and she is really doing them to her credit). I do believe that she wants the marriage to work, but maybe just doesn’t know how to work at it. I think I made it too easy on her last time, so that’s what she’s hoping for this time around.

I’ve told her about the time it took to continue the A and she tries to play it down. I hear: “Well, I really didn’t talk to him every day and we only saw each other once in a while this time around.”.
Then she’ll rant and rave about how much she’s got to do tonight and how stressful it is for her that I’m not home to help.

BA I'm glad that your counselor approved of our advice to you, especially regarding the emotional attachment.

While your counselor told you not to try to fix your marriage, it would not be a bad idea if you bought the book 'Torn Asunder' by Dave Carder and gave it to your W to read. The more she learns about why affairs happen, and how it is possible to rebuild a marriage with BOTH spouses doing their fair share of the work, the better she'll be able to understand that she is not alone and that there is hope.

Remember not to get hung up on what she says but to focus on what she does.

hi BA
well i am happy that u got some grip on ur life. Just continue and one day u will get the ray of hope and things will get normal.
have u explained her about the love bank concept to her?
she thinks that making those things will add to ur love bank and u will come to her. but in ur case there is literally no love bank at all. as she has put negative love units last time or completely withdrawn any love u had for her. the second time the betrayal cuts deep and virtually destroyed the bank itself. u are just helping urself with the seperation to be sane and not to pick any girls that includes her also. explain them to her .
all the best.

if it does not kill u, it makes u stronger

she has to put a lot of hardwork

Here’s an update.

We both received individual calls last night from the sponsor couple for the Retrouvaille program we plan to attend starting tomorrow. They basically said that they call in advanced to answer any questions and put the participants at ease prior to showing up. They mentioned to both of us (in separate conversations) that if there’s a 3rd party still in the picture it needs to end before attending the program. Since the call was a chance to voice MY concerns, I expressed my concern that the 3rd party (OM) may not be out of the picture and, at this point in time, I’m still in shock over what has happened over the last two years. I told him that there are some significant trust issues involved and he simply asked me to go with an open mind (which I agreed to do).
I’m not trying to sabotage the efforts of the weekend before we even get started, but these were very REAL concerns that I have about my marriage right now. I went through what I thought was 10 months of marriage rebuilding only to find out the A never ended. I think it is completely in my right to have reservations that this particular program will fix our marriage. But I still plan to go and give it an honest chance.

Now, once my wife found out that I told him some of the details behind our problems she got very upset and accused me of trying to make her look bad in the eyes of everyone that I possibly could. She reminded me that it isn’t required to share our specific problems, but I then reminded her that they called to answer questions and put concerns at ease before we attended. I told her that these WERE still concerns that I have, but I agreed to attend with an open mind.

That wasn’t good enough so we began to argue. It was obvious that it was going nowhere, so I decided to leave rather than argue for the remainder of the night. That’s when she slapped me, told me that she hates me, and told me that she’s not responsible for the “[censored]” I’ve become. On the way home, I received many more calls telling me how I’m a creep (and other names I won’t mention here), but never received an apology for getting slapped.

I’m a man and I know that getting slapped by a woman shouldn’t be a big deal, but I recall that she complained about a similar situation with the OM. She was furious that when the OM pushed her down & dragged her across the patio, he never called to apologize. She said he was more concerned about her going to the police than apologizing for what he did. She felt that showed what kind of person he was. Now, how is this any different? As of right now (the morning after), I have received nothing but a barrage of calls telling me what a horrible person I am, threats for divorce, and demands that I come up to her IC appointment so our counselor can “set me straight”. I refuse to talk to her until I get a sincere apology because she has no right to slap me just because I don’t agree with her opinion and get upset because she keeps pushing it on me.

So, was I wrong to share my concerns with the Retrouvaille sponsor? I honestly didn’t get into the details –I only told him enough to express concern…

Oh Boy,

Of course you were not wrong to share your concerns with the sponsor. The sponsor asks to know of your concerns. Again it seems like it is all about her.
The fact that she feels free to slap you because you disagree with her indicates again she has very little respect for you and is very immature.
You are seeing her as she is. Too Much Coffee said in an earlier post essentially that words are cheap and actions are the true indicator. Your wife talks a good game but her actions show otherwise. You are in a marriage where your wife continues to disrespect and humiliate you in many ways. She is narcissistic and self-serving. For two years she made deliberate choices to sabotage your marriage and relationship and has lost all credibility in your eyes.
Maybe I am cynical but watch out. I think there may be hidden agenda behind her slapping you. It may be that she wishes to have you respond in kind so she can use it against you later in court.
Your wife sounds very unstable, mean and vindicative. Your messages indicate that you are getting stronger and she is getting weaker and more mean-spirited. You need to protect yourself and your children. She is showing her true self now and I think you know it. This is your future if this is what you want. I wish you luck.

No you were not wrong and IF her behavior continues to deteriorate and becomes more violent then I would suggest that you consider getting a restraining order against her. When a woman/man resorts to hitting the other spouse, the chances of her/him using other forms of violence are greatly increased. Just because she is a woman does not give her the right to physically attack you and if you continue to tolerate this kind of behavior from her, the worse it's going to get. I'm sorry to say this but, but until your W shows thru her actions of seeking psychological counseling to resolve her personal demons, your marriage will continue to be on death row.

BA something else that I forgot to add, is that from my personal experience with my ex-W, whose behavior at that time was violent and over the top, I want to stress that you do everything possible to seek legal protection from her. Many times, the spouse that fires the first legal shots gets less screwed by the courts than the other spouse.

Take it from one who has been there, that the more you tolerate this kind of violent behavior, the worse it's going to get. If it continues then I suggest that you take action via a restraining order against her and go to Plan B.

P.S. You latest update about your W has made me have doubts that you would probably be wasting your time at Retrouvaille at this point in time.

<small>[ September 04, 2003, 09:27 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

it's not that i tend to be more tolerant then others or that i approve of anyone hitting anyone else ever! it's just that it seems that your wife slapping you is not inconsistant with her over all behavior.

that is it sounds like she has other issues in her life other then you...and her self destructive acts are all just symptoms of this greater problem.

her anger and attitudes about everything that you percieve to be important are not intended i think to negate you or your feelings...rather i think that you are not the issue. what she's doing to you and the marriage is a by product of something else.

i'm not be cleare i know but i have a feeling there are dynamics here that she must explore through intensive therapy. i'm getting the feeling that your wife is a very sick lady.

coach

It just gets worse…

She came up to work today because I refused to talk to her after slapping me and not apologizing. When I saw her pull in, I left the building. She was unaware I left and showed up in the lobby crying and having several people looking for me. She claims that she will not be treated this way and she is seeking a divorce. I want to remind you that all I did was refuse to take her calls –that’s it. Now I’m being labeled as a horrible person who doesn’t care. She still has yet to apologize.

In my letter last week, I made it perfectly clear that I would end all contact with her and contact an attorney if she came back up to work and made a scene again. Last week she said the letter was reasonable and she agreed to everything I asked. She promised she wouldn’t come up to work anymore. Now I have to live up to my end of the deal, don’t I?

I plan to call an attorney this afternoon, but I’m worried that she’ll make my (and my kids) lives miserable if I break off all contact and start down the legal track. I’ll bring this up with the lawyer.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"I plan to call an attorney this afternoon, but I’m worried that she’ll make my (and my kids) lives miserable if I break off all contact and start down the legal track. I’ll bring this up with the lawyer."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BA please read the following: YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HER BEHAVIOR.

If you know that you are acting in accordance to yours and your children's best interests, then she is going to have to accept it.

If you cave in to her threats, you are only rewarding her destructive and childish behavior. It's time for you to do what you know is right without worrying about her reaction.

TMCM,

Thanks again for the support.
It really means a lot to me when you reinforce that what is happening is not my doing. I don't think you know how much that helps me right now.

You and everyone else have really helped me through this so far. The advice has been on the level and reinforces what I already knew (but would second guess as things get tough).

Now, I get to perform two hours of training and work and act like everything is fine in my life.

I'll try to post an update later on...

I just wish I could get through to her and convince her to stop acting like this. I wish she could see how it accomplishes nothing but making things worse.

I tell her all the time how the good, positive things she does help my situation (and give me hope) and these types of things hurt the situation and make me lose hope. I don’t know why she’s got to feel in control of the situation. If it were me, I’d be walking a very straight line --making very clear in both the good AND bad times that I was serious about he marriage. I go back and forth, but I'm dealing with a lot of feelings right now. I don't understand how she can go back and forth on her position.

As soon as she hits some resistance or complication, it seems like it is so easy to go back on everything she promised. That doesn’t do much to convince me she’s really serious about the problem and our marriage.

I did live up to my ultimatum and have not contacted her since she showed up at work. I’ve also contacted an attorney who basically said she couldn’t recommend a divorce for me. I have to be very clear that’s what I want. I told her that I’m not sure if I can take that step yet, but wanted to get educated on what would happen if I did.; She was very helpful to explain how things typically work out: assets & debt split 50-50, joint child custody, child support until the kids are 18-19, spousal support for typically 4 years (unless she remarried or began living with someone else). She said we’d have to sell the house & split the proceeds. I guess I was worried that I’d have to pay so much support, there’d be nothing left for me to live on. She also said that, since my wife is skilled and capable of working, she’d have to go full-time.

I’m really not sure if I’m to a point of taking that step. For now, I plan to go Plan B for a while and discontinue all contact. That's what I told her I'd do in the letter, so I need to stick to it. She left me a message telling me that it was a joke that she had to talk to me through my sister-in-law. She said it was one of my games and is now threatening to take the kids away for a few days. I’m being called uncaring for refusing to talk to her. She reminds me that she came to comfort me in the middle of the night last week and I should give her the same due respect.

Once again, I wish she’d take a different approach on this situation. It has to be so obvious that a controlling, self-centered, manipulative attitude is not going to fix our marriage. Why doesn’t she see it?

Oh yeah –now she’s telling me there’s no sense going to the Retrouvaille program since I’m not interested in the marriage anymore. She’s making other plans for the weekend.

So, do her actions show that she really doesn’t want the marriage to work deep down inside?
Or is she having a control problem that maybe this situation is now out of her hands? I’m having a hard time reading why she continues to respond this way. It just doesn't make sense and when she finally sees it, it may be too late.

BA,

I don't have much time, but I would strongly urge you to QUIT worrying about what she is thinking. I would like to urge you to start focus on what you think, what you want, and where you are going to draw the line.

You two need to be in counseling NOW before so much damage is done that you cannot recover from this.

You don't need to be in Plan B. The affair is over, but you do need to find a way to communicate with her via someone else for awhile.

She has had a long term affair, and she isn't willing to face the consequences of that affair. She must before the marriage can be rebuilt.

I would also get some protection for yourself with regard to finances and the children and I would do it now.

Must go.

God Bless,

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just Learning:
"You don't need to be in Plan B. The affair is over"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JL Plan B is not just for when the WS is involved in the A and is still undecided for the BS or the OP. Here's what Dr Harley says about in What Are Plan A and Plan B (see my link below):

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In general, I recommend separation when at least one spouse cannot control destructive behavior. An ongoing affair, of course, is one of those situations. Hence, plan B. But other situations such as physical and verbal abuse, where one spouse's mental or physical safety is as risk, are also grounds for separation. As in the case of infidelity, if one spouse is abusive, I often recommend plan A first, where, through negotiation (without anger, disrespect or demands), an attempt is made to overcome the abuse without separating.

But in some cases, the safety risks are so great that plan B should be implemented immediately, with no time for plan A. In these cases, treatment for the abusive habit must take place during separation, and some evidence must exist that the risk has been greatly reduced, or completely eliminated, before the spouses should return to each other. Then, after being together again, the formerly abusive spouse should be held accountable by others for his or her behavior to assure the other spouse's safety.

In other cases, such as annoying behavior or failure to meet important emotional needs, where thoughtlessness does not reach the level of physical or mental abuse, plan A should be given quite a bit of time and effort before resorting to plan B. Remember, plan A is negotiating (without anger, disrespect or demands) to eliminate the annoying behavior or improve the meeting of emotional needs. A blanket agreement between spouses to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement goes a long way toward eliminating these thoughtless acts, and can also help couples learn to meet each other's needs with enthusiasm. But without that policy, couples often find that they cannot get anywhere with each other through negotiation, and sometimes separation can eventually lead to mutual recognition that they need the Policy of Joint Agreement to help them resolve conflicts.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">betrayed again:

"She’s making other plans for the weekend.

So, do her actions show that she really doesn’t want the marriage to work deep down inside?
Or is she having a control problem that maybe this situation is now out of her hands? I’m having a hard time reading why she continues to respond this way. It just doesn't make sense and when she finally sees it, it may be too late."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BA your W's behavior is very reminiscent of a WS that is still having an A. Are you positively sure that she's ended her A? It might be advisable for you to snoop a little to see if she truly is not still seeing the OM.

BA

I'm sorry to see the situation thats developing, TMCM has made a valid point about wether the A is actually over. I'd snoop a lot.

You should stop worring about what your W thinks. Maybe it is some subcounsious/repressed childhood abuse. Thats something your W needs to sort/work through. It seems your W is avoiding any work on the M and on herself.

IMHO if you decided to proceed to divorce, you should seek custody of the children. Your W will just drag them from one bad situation to another. You the responsable parent should do this.

Your W might need to lose everything before her fog starts to lift. Sometimes God has to knock us flat, before he can pick us up.

Anyways, stick to your guns, respect yourself, you have done all you can do. Its good that you didn't retaliate in kind to the slap. I to think there was something else behind it.

One other thing, if she gets physical again, call the police, let there be a record and make sure and take pictures. Spousal abuse does go both ways, her slap was and is abuse. Again she needs to learn that there is a price you have to pay for the things you do.

God Bless

Another update…

Yesterday afternoon I heard via my sister-in-law that an ambulance was picking up my wife’s Grandfather at their house. Evidently, they thought he had another heart attack. Since my wife typically goes to the hospital with her Grandmother, I decided to go home. If it were true, I’d need to watch the kids while she went to the hospital.

When my wife called, I asked if it was true. She said that he’s in the hospital and was stabilized. Then, she threatened to kill herself. Although I suspected the story about her Grandfather was a way to get me home (I hate to even think that), I decided to take a chance and come home anyway. I did call her sister who was also on her way home and she went right over (she actually beat me there).

Evidently, the Grandfather was in the hospital but the details on when and how he got there are still sketchy. My wife was very upset and started getting physical when I told her I didn’t want to talk to her. I WILL NOT lay a finger on her (never have, never will), so there wasn’t much I could do when she started hitting me, dragging me around by the shirt collar, and pushing me around. She only stopped when I dialed 911 on my cell phone and threatened to hit SEND. Unfortunately, her sister was in the basement. When her sister came up, I asked why she didn’t do those things in front of her. She denied doing it and called me a “drama queen”. Realistically, there were no bruises or damage done, but the fact that she resorted to getting physical to get her way is just plain wrong.

All of these bad things she’s doing right now, she’s never even come close to doing the 17 years I’ve been with her. I never even knew she was capable of the physical and emotional abuse…

Because she was so unstable, I decided to get the kids out of there. She jumped in the car with us and wouldn’t leave, so her sister-in-law decided to take the kids back to her house instead. So, I was forced to sit in my car and talk to her because she wouldn’t get out and I couldn’t leave. I insisted that she re-read the letter to understand why I wouldn’t talk to her. She did get me to talk and I told her it was completely unacceptable to have slapped me. It is wrong and under no conditions or reasons is it ever right for one spouse to hit the other. She agreed, but always wanted to add a “but, you said this…” or “but, you did this…”. I told her there were no exceptions, PERIOD.

She admitted that she lost control again today because she felt I rejected her. She told me that growing up she never felt loved and cared for and that I was the only person to do this for her (for the last 17 years). I explained that she has a problem and she needs help. If she does something she can’t control and later admits it, it’s a problem. I explained that it is no different than alcoholism or a drug addition. The problem must be addressed before we can even think of fixing the marriage. She seemed at a loss of what to do. I told her that she needs to stay strong and work at the problem, not resort to threats or force as a way to pacify it. I reassured her that I loved and cared for her, but she needed to get some help.

After she calmed down, she asked if I still planned to go to the Retrouvaille program this weekend. She said she really had a lot of hope that it would help us and still desperately wanted to go. I asked her why she did all those bad things if she still wanted to go and she said it was because she felt rejected by me and couldn’t control it.

I’m having a hard time reading real calls for help and just another BS line to fill my head with hope (only to have it crash down again). So, should I go for the weekend? I have so many mixed up feelings about it, I honestly don’t know what to do. I’ve asked God to give me direction, but so far I don’t sense what to do. Any suggestions?

GO. Your wife needs somebody else to tell her what she is doing is wrong. She is controlling. Currently she is not in controll, things are happening and she freeks out. (reaction to her stress.) Her being physical is her reaction to stress, just like an abusive husband beating his wife. Just like in those situations, the person is loving and fine until stress builds up and a trigger happens. They then lose control and let their emotions make decisions. SHE NEEDS HELP.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"I’m having a hard time reading real calls for help and just another BS line to fill my head with hope (only to have it crash down again). So, should I go for the weekend? I have so many mixed up feelings about it, I honestly don’t know what to do. I’ve asked God to give me direction, but so far I don’t sense what to do. Any suggestions?"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, Retrovaille can wait. Your W is a sick lady and the most urgent need is for her to get therapy to resolve her problems. You did well in telling her that her problem has to be addressed before you can even think about saving the marriage.

As I read your update, I felt like I was reading my life story when I found out that my ex-W had been unfaithful for she too resorted to the same tactics that your W has. Beleive me when I tell you that appeasing her and giving in to her way is NOT going to work. You MUST be resolute about her getting help or you will walk away from the marriage. The marital vow of 'in sickness and in health' does NOT mean that you have to stay married to her if she refuses help when it is readily available.

You may want to consider temporarily leaving Plan B to help your W find a therapist that can help her. If she balks at going, then go back to Plan B.

Hubby,

The program is NOT designed to get individual help. It isn’t even designed to get specific help for a marriage. Our specific problems are never discussed. Instead, we hear other couples speak and then learn how to communicate and build trust in our marriage.

TMCM,

I have to agree with your opinion and that’s why I’m having a hard time deciding. I can’t see me trying to fix a marriage when the source of the problem goes un-addressed. On the other hand, maybe this session will give us both skills to better communicate WHILE she gets individual help for her problem.

It is only offered once a quarter or every 6 months (I don’t remember which). If we don’t go now, we wait for a while before we have another chance.

Right now, life is being put into perspective for me. Her grandfather is probably going through surgery today and her grandmother is very upset. They’ve been married for 60+ years and stood by each other in sickness and health. I feel very selfish if I cause more waves during this family crisis. I feel like I need to lay low for now, so the family can deal with this (more important) matter right now. It is more important and makes my problems seem very small right now.

She’s agreed to get help for her problem. She has an appointment next Tuesday and I think she will now open up to our Counselor. (Note: our MC is trained in all kids of therapy and has told me that she is qualified to help my wife with her specific problems --IF she’d only open up).

I’m thinking that the weekend may help us end the LB’s that are destroying our marriage and help us better communicate and understand each other while she is getting help. I can always walk away after the weekend if she refuses to get help or continues her unacceptable behavior, right? So, in my opinion, what’s the risk? Yes, I’m giving in once more, but it doesn’t mean I have to move home and pretend my marriage is wonderful again. I’ll go with an open mind, but still know in my mind that she has a problem and needs help.

Your plan seems sound to be a sound one, go for it.

Keep in mind that if she refuses to follow through with her therapy, then you MUST be resolute to go back to Plan B. Her therapy must become a deal breaker as far as the survival of the marriage is concerned.

Thanks TMCM.

I completely agree about the therapy. I WILL stand firm on this issue. In addition, I will not accept the kind of behavior I saw yesterday. My letter still stands, but I'm ending my Plan B/NC stance with her (this time) in order to attend this weekend's program.

As always, thanks again for your good advice!

betrayed_again,

I haven't been keeping up with your story - actually, I think this is the first time I've read your thread.

I read something in your posts which really seemed very familiar to me - in that my W has done something similar. I just wanted to validate (if that's the right word) your W a little. She's a mixed up lady alright, but her explanation for her violent outburst is the same as my W gave one time - and which made sense to me.

My W grew up in a very abusive and controlling environment. I'm one of the two people (OM is the other, unfortunately) who has ever listened to her and accepted her as a person. When I put up my steel wall and ignored her, she totally lost it - and we had one of those violent sessions.

Unlike your W, mine was violent from the first month of our marriage - although the first year was the worst, she is still occationally violent. So, although this was just one of many such events - it was different than the rest. This one time - just a couple of months ago (I look at my arm now and still see the scars from her fingernails), she really flipped out because I was ignoring her - and she said almost the same thing your W said.

Basicly, my attention is like air to her - and when I stopped listening to her - it was as if she was suffocating. Just as a person will struggle for air when they are suffocating, your W (and mine) was struggling - not knowing what to do or how to do it - in a full panic. I believe them both. Of course, violence is not the best way to get somebody to listen to you, but a desparate person will rarely do the wisest thing.

For whatever it's worth, I hope that helps.

I think the weekend will go well.

-AD

AD,

Yes, it sounds like our situations are similar. You didn't mention how things are going for you now. Is she getting help? If so, how? Is it helping?

Are you still together? How are YOU dealing with this situation?

I'd be very interested to know more about your specific experience. Thanks.

Silverthorn & TMCM,

I don't know for sure if she's ended the A, but I've really looked at every possible sign that I can. I don't see any clues, but they're usually a step ahead of me. In addition, I have no way to control the phone calls on the pay phone or visits to his apartment to drop off notes during the day.

My gut tells me that she hasn't had contact since 8/11. Now that her entire family knows the truth and she's pushing attendance for a long, intensive weekend to fix our marriage, I just have to have faith that (at least right now), it is over. She also tells me that God will be a witness to her actions from this point forward.

My concern is still with the future. She has proved that they can cool it off and lay low during times like these. I'm just afraid of her reaction when he shows up in 4 months, crying and begging for her to come back. I don't think she will be able to resist like she tells me she will. I hate the fact that I don't have full control over the possible contact between the two of them.

In my opinion the reason why your wife is behaving so irrational is because she is still extremely involved on an emotional level with the OM. She is swimming toward you but is unable to let go of the OM. She wants you to be her saviour and rescue her from her demons which pull her toward the OM. She knows that she has no future with him but is unable or unwilling to break loose. She is in a predicament in which she wants to stay married, live in a nice house with her children but cannot stop her desire to be with the OM which she knows will destroy her marriage. So far her actions show that she will pursue the OM if/when the opportunity arises. Your wife opened up a pandora's box which she is finding hard to close.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"My concern is still with the future. She has proved that they can cool it off and lay low during times like these. I'm just afraid of her reaction when he shows up in 4 months, crying and begging for her to come back. I don't think she will be able to resist like she tells me she will. I hate the fact that I don't have full control over the possible contact between the two of them."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All the more reason for you to emotionally detach from her. You are dealing with someone that exhibits many of the same characteristics of a drug addict, and if you give her the impression that all is forgiven and forgotten, then she's going to go back to her old ways. Her change for the better will not happen overnight and if there is a chance for that change to become permanent, there has to be a constant application of the The Four Rules For A Succesful Marriage by BOTH of you. If you become weak in your resolution to walk away from the marriage if she restarts her affair with the OM, then you will ,for all practical purposes, be giving her the signal that you will do nothing to end the marriage. Beleive me when I tell you that your greatest enemy is not the OM, but your fear of ending the marriage if she restarts her affair with him OR if she only gives you lip service to following the four rules for a succesful marriage but shows no actual intention of doing so.

<small>[ September 06, 2003, 08:46 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>