Hi BA

From what I read, she has decided not to play softball? Yes, she didn't take into account the triggers that would bring to you. Maybe she see it now.
Maybe you both need to find something else to do together.
I wouldn't worry anything about the OM, heck if I were you I wouldn't contact him ever again. The man is a boil. There is nothing to be learned from the OM.

B_A

have u read my post for ur thread?
If not read again. ITs really really time for Plan B. If u are not ready for that then live a big lie. U are again and again falling into her manipulative trapping. Women do this better. Whjy dont u have some good time alone??? Why dont u go on a vacation/ friends home like??? . Go on NC with her. Show her that u are ready to leave her. She must have been a great women before A. If u want her back u have to Go Plan B. U will do this if u really have loved her.

Its time to regroup your feelings, resources,finances and time to look at your life. The longer u stay in this state, the love for her will soon eveoporate. Taking ur golfing clubs, playing in the team are just big signs. U are tinking abt U LB ing her. Dont u see that shes LBing u in bigge way.

Comparing u with OM ????? Big big big bull****.
Cant u see her ??? U have to kill this women , she is not ur wife.If u really want that Angel before A, u take decisions. Not her.Else u endup big loser

Bryanp,

She’s agreed to not play softball and admits that she knows that whole situation bothers me. One of my requirements in my letter was not to contact the OM in any way ever again. I also included his best friend in that requirement, too. It’s become very obvious to me that we (my wife & I) can no longer have any contact with him. I reiterated the importance of NC with the OM’s best friend again this morning. She told me that she feels bad that she got him into this mess and it really wasn’t his fault. I explained that it doesn’t matter –his symbolism and contact with the OM is enough to permanently end our friendship. She agreed.

Believe me, I feel exactly what you said:

"if she cannot even do this simple little thing to reduce your trigger and pain then be prepared down the road for things you will not like."

I don’t even think she considered the ramifications when she said it. It’s just another example of her self-focused side. She said this at a point when I was pushing her away, so I honestly think it was an attempt to get my attention –not deliberately hurt me. I hope I’m right and she’s beyond this now…

TMCM,

You couldn’t have said it better:

“Promises are easy to make but keeping them is another matter altogether. Don't believe any of her words for they mean absolutely nothing without her actions to back them up.”

I told her the phrase “actions speak louder than words” many times throughout the last three weeks. I’m trying to make her understand exactly what I’m saying. She is getting frustrated because I haven’t really responded to her promises and reassurances. I think she’s finally getting it and has started on the “actions” side of things. We’ll see how long it lasts.

Jaref,

I appreciate your reply –your point of view is obviously unique since you are the WS still in the midst of the A. Hopefully, by you seeing what it does to the BS (from all of my posts), you’ll KNOW that you need to end the A right away. You can’t start to fix your marriage until the A is ended, right?

Gregg M,

I know I can’t believe anything she says, but when does that cycle end? Obviously, if I’m going to do anything towards reconciliation, I’ll have to give her some level of trust. If I think everything is a lie, then you’re right –I should go Plan B. I know it doesn’t seem like it from all of my posts, but she IS acting differently this time around. If I go Plan B, she goes crazy. If I give her just a small amount of hope, she becomes stable, very sincere and, begins working on of my ultimatums. I think I prefer the later option –especially when I don’t feel forced giving her this hope…

I am not waffling on my ultimatums. I have reassured her about the urgency of these ultimatums, but that doesn’t mean I have to be cold & mean until they are completed. If she seems sincere and very serious about doing what ever it takes to fix our marriage, then I’ll agree to give her some signs of hope. I don’t think that is unreasonable.

We went to the football game yesterday and it went okay. No extreme bad or good came out of it. I stayed at our house last night because it was easier to help get the kids out the door in the morning. No matter what, I still have responsibilities as a father.

She started asking about “our” plans for the weekend. I told her that I don’t know what I’m doing and I’d let her know. She agreed to give me my space, but then immediately told me how upset it makes her for me not to wear my wedding ring. I told her that I would decide when I’m ready to put it back on (and it wasn’t now). That ring is a symbol of our marriage that she willingly trashed for the last 2 years. When I put it back on, it will be when I feel we are heading back in the right direction. Again, this is where her actions (not words) come in to play.

Hurtinhart,

The OM is not married. He is divorced and my wife actually e-mailed his ex-wife to tell her what was going on a few weeks ago. His ex-wife described the guy exactly how I always saw him: extremely self-focused (like my wife), bitter and mad the word, thinks the word owes him something, distrustful, and extremely jealous. He knows only how to destroy relationships (his and others around him) instead of knowing how to nurture them. She said getting out of the marriage was the best decision she ever made. It took years of IC to get her back on track.

The MC helps, but we are going separately right now.

I agree –NC is NC. That applies to the OM, his best friend, and any other connections back to the A. I see it so clearly this time around.

Silverthorn,

Yes, she is not playing softball. She says she understands how it hurts me, so she isn’t playing.
I’d like to believe she sees it now, but I thought she saw it before, too.

If we get back on track, I’d really like to find some NEW things that we can enjoy together. I think that added to the strength of our relationship early on. I really hope we can get to that point again.

I asked the OM for the notes she sent him back when I found out this time around. He asked why he should do anything for me (like ruining my life wasn’t enough) and I said that I need to know all that I could about the A in order to make a solid decision about my life. I also gave him my word that I’d never contact him again once he gave me the letters. Surprisingly, he gave me the letters, so even though he isn’t man enough to deserve it, I’m living up to my promise and never contacting him again. I’m a much better person than him and I WILL keep my word.

Dhanush,

Yes I’ve read both of your posts, but I think your recommendations are a little extreme right now. Like I’ve said before, she is not a bad person. I see some hope by how sincere she’s being this time around and by some of her actions thus far.

If I really take your advice, I’d basically be walking away from my marriage –and I’m not prepared to do that right now. But, I DO appreciate yours and everyone else’s opinion.

BA ,from what I've seen here and in my own life, a BS that makes peace with the possibility that his/her marriage may end, is more prepared to deal with almost any eventuality that presents itself in his/her path because s/he has learned to emotionally detach from the ordeal. The BS is less likely to feel the extreme highs and lows produced by the emotional rollercoaster. This emotional control of the BS also scares the living daylights out of the WS because s/he realizes that the BS can no longer be manipulated like in the past and is perfectly willingly to move on if the WS's actions do not match his/her words. Start developing a contingency plan just in case you come to the decision that the marriage is unsalvageable because just like a firearm, it is better to have one and not need it than not to have one and need it.

Oh one more thing, a good way to have your W put her money where her mouth is, is to see how willing she to follow The Four Rules For A Succesful Marriage . IMNSHO thos 4 rules are essential for a marriage to recover from the ordeal of infidelity.

Tomaz and BryanP,
Did I say ANYTHING at all that was not in-line with what MB stands for? NO!!! I was trying to tell BA that there is hope! I was trying to give him the benefit of seeing the mind of a WS. We are not always in our "right mind". I meant no offense to BA by posting - I thought the insight might be helpful.

I am trying to end my A. With the help of others on this board we have developed a plan.

Anyway, this thread is about BA and what is going on with him. I just wanted you to know that I meant no harm and wanted to give a different perspective that I thought would be helpful to him.

BA:

I agree with virtually all of what TMCM has said.
In particular, the piece regarding emotional detachment. That is, stabilizing you and your emotions and family.. I know this is difficult, it took me a long time to learn how to do it.(Ask anyone here)But, once I learned I felt a sense of relief and peace that I had not known for a very long time.
Becoming emotionally detached also has one other benefit besides scaring the daylights out of the WW.
You also begin to think more clearly and make better decisions on what to do. That is why it is so important to learn how to do it.
To address your remark about being mean or cold and family obligations I will say this.
First, what your WW has done is the most cold act one person can do to another in the balance of a relationship where trust and honesty is the only foundation.
Detaching may seem cold and mean to the WW, but this about trying to get YOU in line,not her. She has to realize that there are consequences to her actions of infidelity. This is hard because the relationship of man and wife is so personal and meaningful. If someone you did not care aboutsomeone who did this to you,you wouldn't give doing Plan B a second thought.
However, in my opinion, the solution is the same.
She needs to learn that she could lose it all...and you have to find out how much she wants the marriage and you.
Discussions with her about her remorse and her inactions or actions are good to a point, but they are not proof of her willingness.
As long as the other man is available, regardless of what she says, this whole thing could re-ignite.
Remember, she is not the same woman right now.
She has totally destroyed your trust in her. Do not cry,plead, beg or whine with her. It will not work.Be cool....diplomatic and businesslike with her. You can smile and laugh...but treat her like someone you do not know well...because you do not. That is gone. For now.
FAMILY
Plan B takes into account how to handle children and visitaion and all of the feelings involved. You must discuss with the kids one thing. That both of you love them very much and always will love them. And of course, spend as much time with them as you can.
I am sorry, but this is the only way,and it is very hard. I suspect that all of us here will hammer on this thought for awhile.
MAKE HER EARN YOU BACK. You deserve that much to really know the truth.You are in control here if you want to be. DO IT!And tell her to get some individual counseling while you consider your options and her progress.

TMCM and Gregg M.

I think you are both telling me about the same thing. I completely agree that emotional detachment may be a way to go. That’s how I was becoming up until the last few days, but you see what happens to her. She takes it as rejection and a sign that I don’t want things to work. She completely flips out instead of handling this maturely. When she “flips out”, she starts doing even more damage (calling me non-stop, coming up to work & making a scene, sending a barrage of personal attacks). She completely loses control of her life. Remember that the kids are in the middle of all of this. She admits that she can’t control herself when she feels rejected by me. This worries me. She seems to have a need to be loved & cared for, so as soon as I cut it off, she’ll go looking for it somewhere else. Then, I’ll be blamed for “giving up” on her and she’ll forever believe in her mind that she was trying to make things work and I refused.

Last November, I was to the point where I was ready to walk away. I was honestly to the point where it didn’t hurt me to think of her living the rest of her life with someone else. Even if it meant that I’d be alone, I was almost relieved to finally take control of my life. I felt the same peace and relief that you felt (Greg M). I think she saw this and quickly scrambled to get me back.

This time around, I feel like I easily went back to this emotional detachment, but when I’m in that state of mind, she flips out. Her threats to leave me, go back to the OM, or find someone else don’t affect me. At least all of these things would be visible to me. The thing that worries me is the most is the hidden things. I can’t deal with any more secret relationships behind my back.

Emotional detachment is a real LB for my wife. So, do I continue down this path –despite the fact that I know it may ultimately destroy any chances at reconciliation or do I give her some glimmer of hope, but not too much so she can focus on getting help and proving things are different by her actions?

She needs to get help for herself before we can consider things like the Four Rules, right?
Despite the fact that I’d like to jump right back in and start fixing things (I’m usually like that), I have to resist trying to fix our marriage until I have proof that she’s willing to do the same.

I’m wondering if the football game was a mistake. When we share these small, but meaningful good moments together, she begins setting unrealistic expectations. She tells me “I thought we were going to start working on our marriage”. I tell her that we are, but I need to know for sure that things are going to be different this time. She asks how long that will take and I tell her that I don’t know.

She’s focusing on the wedding ring today. She says she understands me needing space & not moving home, but can’t understand why I won’t put it back on. I tell her that it is a symbol of a marriage that I’m not sure about anymore. When I’m sure again, I’ll put it back on. She tells me how upsetting it is for me not to wear it and I remind her how much more upsetting it is for me to deal with what she’s done to our marriage the last two years. When she threatens to stop wearing her rings, I say “go ahead”. I think she’s worried that I’m trying to pick up other women since it “appears” I’m not married.

I told her I felt like I was being pushed again and that I’d let her know if/when we’d do something this weekend. It’s obvious she doesn’t like to live this way. She said that she wanted to go camping or to an amusement part during the long weekend and I said that I can’t commit to something like that. Maybe we can have a campfire & watch a movie, but I’m not comfortable with something that I couldn’t easily leave (or any type of social function).

I have another question about emotional detachment: how do you know when to stop?
How do I know when I am ready to start working on my marriage again? From everything I’ve hear, you get to this state and stay there until you see (or don’t see) the desired results. What are those results? What if the results are there and then they begin to taper off? That’s my dilemma right now –I don’t know if what my wife is doing is enough to convince me things are different.

Last time I was in this state and she began doing all the “right” things. So, I started focusing on my marriage again and showing her how good it could be. Unfortunately, after a few months she said everything was fine and ended MC. To be honest, I believed it. We both were happy and seemed to be doing better than ever.

I now know that the MC cannot end for a long time –even when things are looking better, but what about the logs, monitoring, etc. Is it okay for her to get comfortable in our marriage again and feel she doesn’t have to work as hard? I feel like that’s what will happen because that’s what happened last time.

I feel like the emotional detachment (or even Plan B) is something I’d have to turn on and off until I get the desired results and I’m not sure this is the “right” way. To be honest, she’ll go a day or two doing the “right” things and giving me hope. Then, she’ll do something stupid and make me turn the other way. I know I’m wavering (NOT WAFFLING), but I just don’t’ know when it is the right time to begin fixing things again.

She really does seem sincere and has started proving it with her actions –is that enough?
What if she begins to lose interest or tells me that there are too many expectations?

I also have a question about emotional detachment.

If/when the BS manages to pull away for a while just for their own protection from the pain, and instead of being concerned the WS only becomes angry and indignant at how badly THEY are being treated -- what do you make of that?

Great comment from PsychoB.

It is interesting about the wedding rings. She apparently had no problems wearing her wedding rings and screwing this guy for the past two years so clearly it has very little significance to her. Yet she he asks you to wear your wedding ring not because it is a great significance to your love and vows toward each other but rather she is worried that some other woman will think you are a single and thus your wife feels she may lose her meal ticket. This is an example of the comment that PsychoB just made to you. Your wife is a manipulator and a survivor and she thinks of herself as the number one priority. You gave her forgiveness and she repaid you by doing it again. Someone once said that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. I do wish you luck but so much of her statements indicates it is all about her and her happiness and very little about you except as a provider of a nice lifestyle. These are just my thoughts.

I get the feeling that you are confusing emotional detachment with acting being cold and aloof and they are not the same. You can be emotionally detached while on the outside you appear to be concerned OR you can appear to be cold and aloof while inside your are a seething emotional volcano.

Emotional detachment IS NOT a BS manipulative tool to get the WS to do what you want her to do. It IS a coping tool for the BS to help him/her deal constructively with the ordeal of infidelity. If the WS reacts negatively to the BS's peaceful behavior induced by the emotional detachment, then the WS will have to learn to accept it or it is going to eventually push the BS towards chosing divorce as the best choice in his/her life.

<small>[ August 29, 2003, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

I also agree with PsychoB.

That’s exactly what is happening for me --if I retreat for my own protection, I get accused of being the bad guy. She just did it again.

TMCM.

I think I understand what you are saying.

So, I can retain an emotional detachment, but still be kind to her. I can even see her, hold her, and do things that may improve our marriage without losing the emotional detachment?

If I understand correctly, it is more of a state of mind than an outward reaction. If I feel I can walk away at anytime no matter how good or bad it gets right now, then I think I’m there. Even during the “good” times, I still feel like I could walk if things suddenly turned bad again. Or I could walk if she started going back on her promises or, worse case, re-starts the A.

Am I understanding correctly? If so, I think I’m there.

Since this last time I’ve found out, I feel more in control of the situation and less depressed. I have my sad moments, but I’ve actually been surprised how removed I feel from the situation. Just my posts to this board reinforce (to me) that I’m trying to work with a clear head and open mind. I thought I’d be a crying wreck over this, but I’m not.

Even the thoughts in my head about them together don’t seem to shock me as much anymore. As bad as it sounds, I’m almost used to it by now. Even getting through the day at work isn’t as difficult as last time. I can easily tune everything out and act normal.

When I do get sad, it tends to be over what I’ve already lost (the innocence of our marriage, the trust in someone I love, the knowledge that things will never be the same). I don’t feel as upset thinking of losing my marriage or wife right now. Both are not what they were before. I know this will change if/when I begin to heal our marriage, but for now it helps me cope (and stand my ground).

Bryanp,

I’ve told her the same thing about the Wedding rings a ton of times before. She claims she never took them off when she was with him. I don’t buy it. He’s so jealous and possessive that I know he would have made her take them off.

In addition to being perceived as single, I think the lack of ring represents a constant reminder that things are seriously wrong. She wants so bad to sweep this under the rug and get our lives back to “normal”.

You’re right: she is a manipulator, survivor and extremely self-focused, but I still believe that she loves me. She’s attractive enough to find another person to support her lifestyle (obviously not the OM because he’s dirt poor). If she really didn’t think she could be happy with me anymore, I think she would have walked a long time ago. We had a great, loving, caring relationship years ago. I think she now sees that the “passion” of the A doesn’t hold a candle to a mature, caring relationship.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"TMCM.

I think I understand what you are saying.

So, I can retain an emotional detachment, but still be kind to her. I can even see her, hold her, and do things that may improve our marriage without losing the emotional detachment?

If I understand correctly, it is more of a state of mind than an outward reaction. If I feel I can walk away at anytime no matter how good or bad it gets right now, then I think I’m there. Even during the “good” times, I still feel like I could walk if things suddenly turned bad again. Or I could walk if she started going back on her promises or, worse case, re-starts the A.

Am I understanding correctly? If so, I think I’m there"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Correct on all counts grasshopper. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

BA,

I think Coffeeman has got you on the right path. The sad thing is that you ARE NOT going to be emotionally invested in this marriage any more. She is for her own reasons. What you don't have quite sorted out is that she needs you much more than you need her. Yes, she can find another guy, but if he is a decent guy,she will do the same, if he is like OM, she will be miserable. Actually, no matter what the odds are high she will not be a happy camper, unless she sorts herself out.

You on the other hand what women are looking for, stable, loving, financially stable, etc.

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I now know that the MC cannot end for a long time –even when things are looking better, but what about the logs, monitoring, etc. Is it okay for her to get comfortable in our marriage again and feel she doesn’t have to work as hard? I feel like that’s what will happen because that’s what happened last time.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">AH, I think you missed the point. She is NOT supposed to work hard, or even be accountable to you on a daily basis IF the marriage does recover. It you cannot envision the situation where you trust her, then you are ready to go.

What I think you are missing is YOU are NOT going to rebuild this marriage. SHE is going to rebuild this marriage. The first time around was on you, the second time is her. She wants you around wearing the wedding rings, the she is going to have to come up with ideas that will make you comfortable in the marriage, and trusting her. If she doesn't, YOU are not a cop, you are not her prison guard.

I am all for being kind, and giving another chance, but the issue is another chance at WHAT? I feel that when you decide you are ready SHE is going to have to present you with HER plan to make you comfortable in this relationship and she will have to continue to make YOU comfortable. In return you will be a loving husband. If you are uncomfortable, then divorce her. It is in her hands and you should place it there.

You could for example explain that you won't be back until you feel better and have healed from the damage she has done. You won't stay unless her plans to make you comfortable in this relationship in fact do that. If they don't there is no reason to stay. You are not her parents, her prison guard, and you won't endure abuse, humiliation, or any of the other games she has played so far. If she wants the marriage, then she has some planning, proving, and actions to consider and execute.

This is where the detachment that Coffeeman comes into play. It is NOT disengaging, so much as being willing to define your boundaries and leaving if they are crossed. I would not make a habit out of leaving and coming back. I would decide when enough is enough, and divorce her.

I will tell you I my experience I and my W have been friends with two couples and both W's were just drop dead gorgeous. Both thought rather highly of themselves, and both had deeply devoted hard working H's. Who to be honest were not fashion models in their day, but were like me: perhaps acceptable is the term. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Both ladies decided to step out and have some fun,and both were in their mid-40's and could pass for much younger, some good Doc's helped in this matter. They just up and left their H's and destroyed them, and the adult children. No worries right. Well, they both divorced and one of them is still living and sharing time with original OM who won't ask his W for a divorce. The other has now been through quite a few men and cannot seem to find the "right" guy. I will point out that all are now in their 50's.

The two guys? Well, it took them a few years but both lost their jobs, started their own companies and are successful and extremely happy in their NEW marriages.

My point?? If your W cannot make you happy and comfortable in your own home, then given what she has done to you TWICE, I would leave. She needs to know that the pressure is on HER. If she is unstable and truely LB's all of the time, then she hasn't a clue.

BA, this is like selling, you can sell anything if you give it away, but if you want fair price you need to be able to handle the pressure. It seems your W is happy in the marriage as long as she gets her way, and you give away all that is of value to you.

I recommend that you continue counseling, talk with your W about what her role is GOING TO BE. And then you won't have a hard time deciding to stay or walking. She will make that decision for you. It is after all UP TO HER now.

God Bless,

JL

To Jaref:

Why are you addressing your coments to me? I do not recall making any statement to you on this thread so why the attitude toward me?

I'm sorry, BryanP...I meant to respond to Gregg M and Tomaz.

To Jaref:

Apology accepted.
Have a nice day.

"She claims she never took them off when she was with him."

In my opinion, it makes it even worse because she still went ahead and did the unthinkable even though the ring should have been a reminder that she had taken marital vows to be faithful and not commit adultery.

I agree with Tomaz that it is worse because she said she never took off her wedding rings when she was with him and being intimate with him. If this is the case then it simply indicates that the wedding rings have absolutely no significance or meaning to her whatsoever and she never gave it a second thought while she was having sex with the OM for the past two years. It is therefore ludicrous to believe that it hurt her for you to take off your wedding rings unless it meant the possibility that she might lose the economic benefits of a spouse that was horribly betrayed by her. In short, her words do not match her actions. I wish you luck.