BA something else that I forgot to add, is that from my personal experience with my ex-W, whose behavior at that time was violent and over the top, I want to stress that you do everything possible to seek legal protection from her. Many times, the spouse that fires the first legal shots gets less screwed by the courts than the other spouse.

Take it from one who has been there, that the more you tolerate this kind of violent behavior, the worse it's going to get. If it continues then I suggest that you take action via a restraining order against her and go to Plan B.

P.S. You latest update about your W has made me have doubts that you would probably be wasting your time at Retrouvaille at this point in time.

<small>[ September 04, 2003, 09:27 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

it's not that i tend to be more tolerant then others or that i approve of anyone hitting anyone else ever! it's just that it seems that your wife slapping you is not inconsistant with her over all behavior.

that is it sounds like she has other issues in her life other then you...and her self destructive acts are all just symptoms of this greater problem.

her anger and attitudes about everything that you percieve to be important are not intended i think to negate you or your feelings...rather i think that you are not the issue. what she's doing to you and the marriage is a by product of something else.

i'm not be cleare i know but i have a feeling there are dynamics here that she must explore through intensive therapy. i'm getting the feeling that your wife is a very sick lady.

coach

It just gets worse…

She came up to work today because I refused to talk to her after slapping me and not apologizing. When I saw her pull in, I left the building. She was unaware I left and showed up in the lobby crying and having several people looking for me. She claims that she will not be treated this way and she is seeking a divorce. I want to remind you that all I did was refuse to take her calls –that’s it. Now I’m being labeled as a horrible person who doesn’t care. She still has yet to apologize.

In my letter last week, I made it perfectly clear that I would end all contact with her and contact an attorney if she came back up to work and made a scene again. Last week she said the letter was reasonable and she agreed to everything I asked. She promised she wouldn’t come up to work anymore. Now I have to live up to my end of the deal, don’t I?

I plan to call an attorney this afternoon, but I’m worried that she’ll make my (and my kids) lives miserable if I break off all contact and start down the legal track. I’ll bring this up with the lawyer.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"I plan to call an attorney this afternoon, but I’m worried that she’ll make my (and my kids) lives miserable if I break off all contact and start down the legal track. I’ll bring this up with the lawyer."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BA please read the following: YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HER BEHAVIOR.

If you know that you are acting in accordance to yours and your children's best interests, then she is going to have to accept it.

If you cave in to her threats, you are only rewarding her destructive and childish behavior. It's time for you to do what you know is right without worrying about her reaction.

TMCM,

Thanks again for the support.
It really means a lot to me when you reinforce that what is happening is not my doing. I don't think you know how much that helps me right now.

You and everyone else have really helped me through this so far. The advice has been on the level and reinforces what I already knew (but would second guess as things get tough).

Now, I get to perform two hours of training and work and act like everything is fine in my life.

I'll try to post an update later on...

I just wish I could get through to her and convince her to stop acting like this. I wish she could see how it accomplishes nothing but making things worse.

I tell her all the time how the good, positive things she does help my situation (and give me hope) and these types of things hurt the situation and make me lose hope. I don’t know why she’s got to feel in control of the situation. If it were me, I’d be walking a very straight line --making very clear in both the good AND bad times that I was serious about he marriage. I go back and forth, but I'm dealing with a lot of feelings right now. I don't understand how she can go back and forth on her position.

As soon as she hits some resistance or complication, it seems like it is so easy to go back on everything she promised. That doesn’t do much to convince me she’s really serious about the problem and our marriage.

I did live up to my ultimatum and have not contacted her since she showed up at work. I’ve also contacted an attorney who basically said she couldn’t recommend a divorce for me. I have to be very clear that’s what I want. I told her that I’m not sure if I can take that step yet, but wanted to get educated on what would happen if I did.; She was very helpful to explain how things typically work out: assets & debt split 50-50, joint child custody, child support until the kids are 18-19, spousal support for typically 4 years (unless she remarried or began living with someone else). She said we’d have to sell the house & split the proceeds. I guess I was worried that I’d have to pay so much support, there’d be nothing left for me to live on. She also said that, since my wife is skilled and capable of working, she’d have to go full-time.

I’m really not sure if I’m to a point of taking that step. For now, I plan to go Plan B for a while and discontinue all contact. That's what I told her I'd do in the letter, so I need to stick to it. She left me a message telling me that it was a joke that she had to talk to me through my sister-in-law. She said it was one of my games and is now threatening to take the kids away for a few days. I’m being called uncaring for refusing to talk to her. She reminds me that she came to comfort me in the middle of the night last week and I should give her the same due respect.

Once again, I wish she’d take a different approach on this situation. It has to be so obvious that a controlling, self-centered, manipulative attitude is not going to fix our marriage. Why doesn’t she see it?

Oh yeah –now she’s telling me there’s no sense going to the Retrouvaille program since I’m not interested in the marriage anymore. She’s making other plans for the weekend.

So, do her actions show that she really doesn’t want the marriage to work deep down inside?
Or is she having a control problem that maybe this situation is now out of her hands? I’m having a hard time reading why she continues to respond this way. It just doesn't make sense and when she finally sees it, it may be too late.

BA,

I don't have much time, but I would strongly urge you to QUIT worrying about what she is thinking. I would like to urge you to start focus on what you think, what you want, and where you are going to draw the line.

You two need to be in counseling NOW before so much damage is done that you cannot recover from this.

You don't need to be in Plan B. The affair is over, but you do need to find a way to communicate with her via someone else for awhile.

She has had a long term affair, and she isn't willing to face the consequences of that affair. She must before the marriage can be rebuilt.

I would also get some protection for yourself with regard to finances and the children and I would do it now.

Must go.

God Bless,

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just Learning:
"You don't need to be in Plan B. The affair is over"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JL Plan B is not just for when the WS is involved in the A and is still undecided for the BS or the OP. Here's what Dr Harley says about in What Are Plan A and Plan B (see my link below):

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In general, I recommend separation when at least one spouse cannot control destructive behavior. An ongoing affair, of course, is one of those situations. Hence, plan B. But other situations such as physical and verbal abuse, where one spouse's mental or physical safety is as risk, are also grounds for separation. As in the case of infidelity, if one spouse is abusive, I often recommend plan A first, where, through negotiation (without anger, disrespect or demands), an attempt is made to overcome the abuse without separating.

But in some cases, the safety risks are so great that plan B should be implemented immediately, with no time for plan A. In these cases, treatment for the abusive habit must take place during separation, and some evidence must exist that the risk has been greatly reduced, or completely eliminated, before the spouses should return to each other. Then, after being together again, the formerly abusive spouse should be held accountable by others for his or her behavior to assure the other spouse's safety.

In other cases, such as annoying behavior or failure to meet important emotional needs, where thoughtlessness does not reach the level of physical or mental abuse, plan A should be given quite a bit of time and effort before resorting to plan B. Remember, plan A is negotiating (without anger, disrespect or demands) to eliminate the annoying behavior or improve the meeting of emotional needs. A blanket agreement between spouses to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement goes a long way toward eliminating these thoughtless acts, and can also help couples learn to meet each other's needs with enthusiasm. But without that policy, couples often find that they cannot get anywhere with each other through negotiation, and sometimes separation can eventually lead to mutual recognition that they need the Policy of Joint Agreement to help them resolve conflicts.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">betrayed again:

"She’s making other plans for the weekend.

So, do her actions show that she really doesn’t want the marriage to work deep down inside?
Or is she having a control problem that maybe this situation is now out of her hands? I’m having a hard time reading why she continues to respond this way. It just doesn't make sense and when she finally sees it, it may be too late."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BA your W's behavior is very reminiscent of a WS that is still having an A. Are you positively sure that she's ended her A? It might be advisable for you to snoop a little to see if she truly is not still seeing the OM.

BA

I'm sorry to see the situation thats developing, TMCM has made a valid point about wether the A is actually over. I'd snoop a lot.

You should stop worring about what your W thinks. Maybe it is some subcounsious/repressed childhood abuse. Thats something your W needs to sort/work through. It seems your W is avoiding any work on the M and on herself.

IMHO if you decided to proceed to divorce, you should seek custody of the children. Your W will just drag them from one bad situation to another. You the responsable parent should do this.

Your W might need to lose everything before her fog starts to lift. Sometimes God has to knock us flat, before he can pick us up.

Anyways, stick to your guns, respect yourself, you have done all you can do. Its good that you didn't retaliate in kind to the slap. I to think there was something else behind it.

One other thing, if she gets physical again, call the police, let there be a record and make sure and take pictures. Spousal abuse does go both ways, her slap was and is abuse. Again she needs to learn that there is a price you have to pay for the things you do.

God Bless

Another update…

Yesterday afternoon I heard via my sister-in-law that an ambulance was picking up my wife’s Grandfather at their house. Evidently, they thought he had another heart attack. Since my wife typically goes to the hospital with her Grandmother, I decided to go home. If it were true, I’d need to watch the kids while she went to the hospital.

When my wife called, I asked if it was true. She said that he’s in the hospital and was stabilized. Then, she threatened to kill herself. Although I suspected the story about her Grandfather was a way to get me home (I hate to even think that), I decided to take a chance and come home anyway. I did call her sister who was also on her way home and she went right over (she actually beat me there).

Evidently, the Grandfather was in the hospital but the details on when and how he got there are still sketchy. My wife was very upset and started getting physical when I told her I didn’t want to talk to her. I WILL NOT lay a finger on her (never have, never will), so there wasn’t much I could do when she started hitting me, dragging me around by the shirt collar, and pushing me around. She only stopped when I dialed 911 on my cell phone and threatened to hit SEND. Unfortunately, her sister was in the basement. When her sister came up, I asked why she didn’t do those things in front of her. She denied doing it and called me a “drama queen”. Realistically, there were no bruises or damage done, but the fact that she resorted to getting physical to get her way is just plain wrong.

All of these bad things she’s doing right now, she’s never even come close to doing the 17 years I’ve been with her. I never even knew she was capable of the physical and emotional abuse…

Because she was so unstable, I decided to get the kids out of there. She jumped in the car with us and wouldn’t leave, so her sister-in-law decided to take the kids back to her house instead. So, I was forced to sit in my car and talk to her because she wouldn’t get out and I couldn’t leave. I insisted that she re-read the letter to understand why I wouldn’t talk to her. She did get me to talk and I told her it was completely unacceptable to have slapped me. It is wrong and under no conditions or reasons is it ever right for one spouse to hit the other. She agreed, but always wanted to add a “but, you said this…” or “but, you did this…”. I told her there were no exceptions, PERIOD.

She admitted that she lost control again today because she felt I rejected her. She told me that growing up she never felt loved and cared for and that I was the only person to do this for her (for the last 17 years). I explained that she has a problem and she needs help. If she does something she can’t control and later admits it, it’s a problem. I explained that it is no different than alcoholism or a drug addition. The problem must be addressed before we can even think of fixing the marriage. She seemed at a loss of what to do. I told her that she needs to stay strong and work at the problem, not resort to threats or force as a way to pacify it. I reassured her that I loved and cared for her, but she needed to get some help.

After she calmed down, she asked if I still planned to go to the Retrouvaille program this weekend. She said she really had a lot of hope that it would help us and still desperately wanted to go. I asked her why she did all those bad things if she still wanted to go and she said it was because she felt rejected by me and couldn’t control it.

I’m having a hard time reading real calls for help and just another BS line to fill my head with hope (only to have it crash down again). So, should I go for the weekend? I have so many mixed up feelings about it, I honestly don’t know what to do. I’ve asked God to give me direction, but so far I don’t sense what to do. Any suggestions?

GO. Your wife needs somebody else to tell her what she is doing is wrong. She is controlling. Currently she is not in controll, things are happening and she freeks out. (reaction to her stress.) Her being physical is her reaction to stress, just like an abusive husband beating his wife. Just like in those situations, the person is loving and fine until stress builds up and a trigger happens. They then lose control and let their emotions make decisions. SHE NEEDS HELP.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"I’m having a hard time reading real calls for help and just another BS line to fill my head with hope (only to have it crash down again). So, should I go for the weekend? I have so many mixed up feelings about it, I honestly don’t know what to do. I’ve asked God to give me direction, but so far I don’t sense what to do. Any suggestions?"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, Retrovaille can wait. Your W is a sick lady and the most urgent need is for her to get therapy to resolve her problems. You did well in telling her that her problem has to be addressed before you can even think about saving the marriage.

As I read your update, I felt like I was reading my life story when I found out that my ex-W had been unfaithful for she too resorted to the same tactics that your W has. Beleive me when I tell you that appeasing her and giving in to her way is NOT going to work. You MUST be resolute about her getting help or you will walk away from the marriage. The marital vow of 'in sickness and in health' does NOT mean that you have to stay married to her if she refuses help when it is readily available.

You may want to consider temporarily leaving Plan B to help your W find a therapist that can help her. If she balks at going, then go back to Plan B.

Hubby,

The program is NOT designed to get individual help. It isn’t even designed to get specific help for a marriage. Our specific problems are never discussed. Instead, we hear other couples speak and then learn how to communicate and build trust in our marriage.

TMCM,

I have to agree with your opinion and that’s why I’m having a hard time deciding. I can’t see me trying to fix a marriage when the source of the problem goes un-addressed. On the other hand, maybe this session will give us both skills to better communicate WHILE she gets individual help for her problem.

It is only offered once a quarter or every 6 months (I don’t remember which). If we don’t go now, we wait for a while before we have another chance.

Right now, life is being put into perspective for me. Her grandfather is probably going through surgery today and her grandmother is very upset. They’ve been married for 60+ years and stood by each other in sickness and health. I feel very selfish if I cause more waves during this family crisis. I feel like I need to lay low for now, so the family can deal with this (more important) matter right now. It is more important and makes my problems seem very small right now.

She’s agreed to get help for her problem. She has an appointment next Tuesday and I think she will now open up to our Counselor. (Note: our MC is trained in all kids of therapy and has told me that she is qualified to help my wife with her specific problems --IF she’d only open up).

I’m thinking that the weekend may help us end the LB’s that are destroying our marriage and help us better communicate and understand each other while she is getting help. I can always walk away after the weekend if she refuses to get help or continues her unacceptable behavior, right? So, in my opinion, what’s the risk? Yes, I’m giving in once more, but it doesn’t mean I have to move home and pretend my marriage is wonderful again. I’ll go with an open mind, but still know in my mind that she has a problem and needs help.

Your plan seems sound to be a sound one, go for it.

Keep in mind that if she refuses to follow through with her therapy, then you MUST be resolute to go back to Plan B. Her therapy must become a deal breaker as far as the survival of the marriage is concerned.

Thanks TMCM.

I completely agree about the therapy. I WILL stand firm on this issue. In addition, I will not accept the kind of behavior I saw yesterday. My letter still stands, but I'm ending my Plan B/NC stance with her (this time) in order to attend this weekend's program.

As always, thanks again for your good advice!

betrayed_again,

I haven't been keeping up with your story - actually, I think this is the first time I've read your thread.

I read something in your posts which really seemed very familiar to me - in that my W has done something similar. I just wanted to validate (if that's the right word) your W a little. She's a mixed up lady alright, but her explanation for her violent outburst is the same as my W gave one time - and which made sense to me.

My W grew up in a very abusive and controlling environment. I'm one of the two people (OM is the other, unfortunately) who has ever listened to her and accepted her as a person. When I put up my steel wall and ignored her, she totally lost it - and we had one of those violent sessions.

Unlike your W, mine was violent from the first month of our marriage - although the first year was the worst, she is still occationally violent. So, although this was just one of many such events - it was different than the rest. This one time - just a couple of months ago (I look at my arm now and still see the scars from her fingernails), she really flipped out because I was ignoring her - and she said almost the same thing your W said.

Basicly, my attention is like air to her - and when I stopped listening to her - it was as if she was suffocating. Just as a person will struggle for air when they are suffocating, your W (and mine) was struggling - not knowing what to do or how to do it - in a full panic. I believe them both. Of course, violence is not the best way to get somebody to listen to you, but a desparate person will rarely do the wisest thing.

For whatever it's worth, I hope that helps.

I think the weekend will go well.

-AD

AD,

Yes, it sounds like our situations are similar. You didn't mention how things are going for you now. Is she getting help? If so, how? Is it helping?

Are you still together? How are YOU dealing with this situation?

I'd be very interested to know more about your specific experience. Thanks.

Silverthorn & TMCM,

I don't know for sure if she's ended the A, but I've really looked at every possible sign that I can. I don't see any clues, but they're usually a step ahead of me. In addition, I have no way to control the phone calls on the pay phone or visits to his apartment to drop off notes during the day.

My gut tells me that she hasn't had contact since 8/11. Now that her entire family knows the truth and she's pushing attendance for a long, intensive weekend to fix our marriage, I just have to have faith that (at least right now), it is over. She also tells me that God will be a witness to her actions from this point forward.

My concern is still with the future. She has proved that they can cool it off and lay low during times like these. I'm just afraid of her reaction when he shows up in 4 months, crying and begging for her to come back. I don't think she will be able to resist like she tells me she will. I hate the fact that I don't have full control over the possible contact between the two of them.

In my opinion the reason why your wife is behaving so irrational is because she is still extremely involved on an emotional level with the OM. She is swimming toward you but is unable to let go of the OM. She wants you to be her saviour and rescue her from her demons which pull her toward the OM. She knows that she has no future with him but is unable or unwilling to break loose. She is in a predicament in which she wants to stay married, live in a nice house with her children but cannot stop her desire to be with the OM which she knows will destroy her marriage. So far her actions show that she will pursue the OM if/when the opportunity arises. Your wife opened up a pandora's box which she is finding hard to close.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"My concern is still with the future. She has proved that they can cool it off and lay low during times like these. I'm just afraid of her reaction when he shows up in 4 months, crying and begging for her to come back. I don't think she will be able to resist like she tells me she will. I hate the fact that I don't have full control over the possible contact between the two of them."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All the more reason for you to emotionally detach from her. You are dealing with someone that exhibits many of the same characteristics of a drug addict, and if you give her the impression that all is forgiven and forgotten, then she's going to go back to her old ways. Her change for the better will not happen overnight and if there is a chance for that change to become permanent, there has to be a constant application of the The Four Rules For A Succesful Marriage by BOTH of you. If you become weak in your resolution to walk away from the marriage if she restarts her affair with the OM, then you will ,for all practical purposes, be giving her the signal that you will do nothing to end the marriage. Beleive me when I tell you that your greatest enemy is not the OM, but your fear of ending the marriage if she restarts her affair with him OR if she only gives you lip service to following the four rules for a succesful marriage but shows no actual intention of doing so.

<small>[ September 06, 2003, 08:46 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>