2Long - I have reported you also.

See what I am talking about - if they cheat, you cheat also, tit for tat (I'm a firm believer in that).

Ms. Priss,

Your life seems pretty much over. I have not been in your situation, but I am not an idiot. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to know that if you have a toothache that probably it is time to see a dentist.

Why I say your life is over? Here it is:

You've know your husband for 16 years, married 13, have three children, with the oldest being 13 Big problem here - shot gun wedding. If you didn't got pregnant he wouldn't have married you. I knew my ex-husband when I was 18, got married at 21 (I was a VIRGIN), divorced him at 37, have not been sexually active with another man since.

D-Day 2001 Your marriage was a timebomb readying to explode. After seven years of marriage I am sure your husband had no desire to sleep with you anymore - but you thought you had him trapped, after all, you have his three children - sure reason for him to stay, right? WRONG. If he had come to you and say "sweetheart, I have no feeling for you anymore I've found someone else that is more enticing, one that I could eventually love, please give me a divorce". Guess what, you would still be on this board, posting and wanting people to tell you how stupid your husband is. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I am not the enemy here. i am not a OW. Just a woman with a lot of pride. Got to set an example for my daughter.

Hezat - you are not a proud woman setting a good example. I feel very sad for you.

You are angry and mean and something awful is hiding inside you to make you want to hurt people who have done nothing to you and have already suffered enough.

People who like themselves are kind. People who are proud usually are helpful. I have cheated and been cheated on. Both when something awful was happening in our lifes and you were never there and could not tell me what to do or what I should of done.

Just as I do not know what in life has made you so bitter and mean spirited. You also speak in absolutes (never, always, everyone) and that usually smacks of desperation to make a case that you don't have any grounds for.

I truly hope that you face your own demons and are someday a happy contributing member of society and learn to never deprive someone of hope - it may be all they have.

Ladies, Ladies you are being to kind towards this so called proud woman. Here let me tell it like it is...

Hezat why are you fronting, we all know you are just a BOW who is mad at the fact that her MM did not leave his W. It must really suck being second banana huh <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Got to set an example for my daughter.
Hmmm? Then why aren't you doing that?

It's okay to leave a marriage, "just because".
simply because I did not love him anymore

If it gets a bit rough, just leave.
Everthing (sic) does not have to be swell all the time. Split up your belongings and move on.

"Payback" is not only okay, it is something that SHOULD be done.
if they cheat, you cheat also, tit for tat (I'm a firm believer in that).

Hell hath no fury than a woman scorned
Yeah, definitely sounds like a scorned ow.

hezat:

"2Long - I have reported you also."

You're kidding, right? Cool. ...About WHAT???

"See what I am talking about - if they cheat, you cheat also, tit for tat (I'm a firm believer in that)."

No, I don't see what you're talking about. I posted some of these 2 Betrayed Husband, but these 2uotes are more appropriate (and I will ad, KIND) responses 2 your 2uote above:


Lewis B. Smedes - Forgive & Forget: Healing the Hurts We Don't Deserve

"The problem with revenge is that it never gets what it wants; it never evens the score. Fairness never comes. The chain reaction set off by every act of vengeance always takes its unhindered course. It ties both the injured and the injurer to an escalator of pain...Why do family feuds go on and on?...the reason is simple: no two people, no two families, ever weigh pain on the same scale."

"Gandhi was right: if we all live by 'an eye for an eye' the whole world will be blind. The only way out is forgiveness."


Lance Morrow - (article, Time Magazine, January 9, 1984)

"Not to forgive is to be imprisoned by the past, by old grievances that do not permit life to proceed with new business. Not to forgive is to yield oneself to another's control...to be locked into a sequence of act and response, of outrage and revenge, tit for tat, escalating always. The present is endlessly overwhelmed and devoured by the past. Forgiveness frees the forgiver. It extracts the forgiver from someone else's nightmare."

hang limp,
-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You've know your husband for 16 years, married 13, have three children, with the oldest being 13 Big problem here - shot gun wedding. If you didn't got pregnant he wouldn't have married you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry to burst your bubble again....but there was no shot gun wedding. My H asked me to marry him BEFORE I got pregnant. It's a custom in his family to be engaged for at least a year before you get married. His parents asked us to uphold that so we did. I just happened to get pregnant within that time. We got married 18 months to the day after we got engaged. In case you didn't know...it takes only 9 months to have a baby. We would have gotten married pregnant or not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> D-Day 2001 Your marriage was a timebomb readying to explode. After seven years of marriage I am sure your husband had no desire to sleep with you anymore - but you thought you had him trapped, after all, you have his three children - sure reason for him to stay, right? WRONG. If he had come to you and say "sweetheart, I have no feeling for you anymore I've found someone else that is more enticing, one that I could eventually love, please give me a divorce". Guess what, you would still be on this board, posting and wanting people to tell you how stupid your husband is. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you need to learn how to count. It was 10 years into our marriage....not 7.

My husband also NEVER lost his desire to sleep with me....so sorry to be poking so many holes in your theories. He actually wanted to have sex with me when he was with the OW....I wouldn't let it happen.

There was no staying for the children. I wouldn't put up with that.

Actually....my H isn't the one that filed....I did. If you had actually taken the time to read a complete post you'd see that my H is the one that begged me to come back to him. Not the other way around.

You're preachin' to the wrong choir lady. You are not going to find one person here who is going to agree with you.

As for setting a good example for your daughter....well...instead of spending your time on here trying to enlighten everyone, to your inside the box view of the BS, why aren't you spending it with your daughter setting that good example?

This IS my last post. I have more important things to spend my time on.

I feel sorry for your daughter.

<small>[ July 13, 2004, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: Miss Priss ]</small>

hmmmm....this thread is good reason why I seldom visit the JFO forum. Too much out of control emotions and faulty reasoning, or self-serving falacious rationalizations.

To wit (as an example):

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The OP is not a theif.

You cannot steal what is freely given.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, so applying this "logic" it would be "okay" and "not stealing" for someone to hold up a bank provided that the Teller (entrusted to protect both the deposits that belong to him and to others that the bank has "covenanted" with) freely gives it to him.

Open the prisons! Let them all out! It was "freely given" to them even though it belonged to someone else and was NOT theirs to "freely give."

And while we are at it, let's legalize Prostitution as it's "freely given" (for a fee).

In marriage, your body is no longer "yours", but it belongs to your spouse.

The delusions run rampant in the justification of sin. "If it feels good, do it!" Hedonistic justification of self-indulgence.

Secular thought run amok. There are no rules other than what I emotionally think I want. Anarchy = doing whatever I want without regard to anyone else. Everyone else can do the same. There ARE no rules that apply to "ME!" The path that we as a nation are headed down and that is exemplified in the reasoning that "You cannot steal what is freely given."

Good Morning to you all,

Slinging mud here, there and everywhere. Do you honestly think that move me.

One fool talking about being "second". Second to what? If my husband had cheated and I found out, and I then let him stay, do you really think I would consider myself "first", just becuase he stayed - hell no. That is the whole thing, you think your husbands chose you. No he did not. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Talking about forgiveness - yeah. First you have to learn to forget inorder to forgive. I do forgive, I have a beautiful heart. I am a kind person. But I am also a realist. I do not grasp at straws. I don't believe in miracles and I know that no one sin is greater than the other - God views them the same. Why, because your husbands cheat and you feel like a doormat, all of a sudden you have now become so "forgiving". You all expect too much from people. We are all imperfect.

...and Ms. Priss,

I did not say you were married for 7 years (yes, I can count). I was merely quoting what statistics have been saying for years. That 7 year itch (heard that before), some marriages does start having problems and they have attributed this to the 7 year thing.

I noticed that everyone that posted after me never bother to mention the fact that I was a virgin when I met my husband and he married me (yes, came to my house and formally "begged" my mother for my hand in marriage), you know, the old fashion way.

I went to college after I was married, got my degree, never went on spring break (that a no-no in my family, for we all know what goes on there). My daughter is 17, just graduated high school, got 1300 on her SAT score, was the validictorian with a GPA of 3.4. She will be attending Temple University in the fall, majoring in Criminal Justice. I am very proud of her and she is of me. I've taught my daughter well - not to settle for less.

Food for thought!

XangelX,

I play second fiddle to noone. I'm a firm believer in show me your wife and I'll tell you who you are. I am afraid of getting STD's.

Some wives do have STD's you know. Where the hell did they get it from? Surely not the husbands. Hmmn, maybe the chickens are really coming home to roost.

hezat:

"slinging mud here, there and everywhere. Do you honestly think that move me."

What mud? Do you honestly think I care? Ac2ally, I do, but you probably didn't notice.

"That is the whole thing, you think your husbands chose you. No he did not."

I don't have a H. Homey don't play that.

"Talking about forgiveness - yeah. First you have to learn to forget inorder to forgive."

WRONG!

Beverly Flanigan - Forgiving The Unforgivable: Overcoming the Legacy of Intimate Wounds:

"Forgiveness has nothing to do with forgetting...A wounded person cannot--indeed, should not--think that a faded memory can provide an expiation of the past. To forgive, one must remember the past, put it into perspective, and move beyond it. Without remembrance, no wound can be transcended."

"Why, because your husbands cheat and you feel like a doormat, all of a sudden you have now become so "forgiving". You all expect too much from people. We are all imperfect."

My H didn't cheat on me. I did feel like a doormat for a long time, though. I didn't become forgiving "all of a sudden", by any means. Forgiveness has been a 30 month process for me. Mostly I've been forgiving myself for things I have been made aware of that I've done wrong, or "inexpediently" perhaps. Forgiveness is for YOU, not for your spouse's benefit, FIRST. Your personal emotional health must come first, before you can have emotionally healthy relationships with other people. We don't "expect" things from other people that they didn't promise us (like fidelity), though we can certainly live what we believe in 2 the best of our abilities and hope that those around us will do likewise.

-ol' 2long

hezat:

Maybe I'm just dense (HS diploma, BS, MS, PhD) but:

"I'm a firm believer in show me your wife and I'll tell you who you are. I am afraid of getting STD's."

What the heck does this mean?

-Dr 2long

Talking about forgiveness - yeah. First you have to learn to forget inorder to forgive. I do forgive,
Huh?
How can you forgive him if you still remember why you left him?
"I left my husband - not for another man (or that he cheated), simply because I did not love him anymore - I did not like him anymore"

toofedup:

More about the topic, from a different perspective.

David Schnarch, in "Passionate Marriage" talks very little about infidelity (it's about sex therapy, but MOST importantly, about becoming a healthy individual capable of having a committed relationship). So when he did mention it on page 299, I found what he said about the "thief" concept interesting:

"Spouses often try to avoid marriage's forced choices by usurping their partner's options. A clandestine affair can be understood as an attempt to steal a partner's choice for monogamy. The adulterer wants it both ways: to have sex with someone else and still be married to the spouse. It's lilke saying, "I want this other person *and* I want you. If I tell you about the affair, you might choose to leave. To hell with what you want - to be in a monogamous relationship. I get both choices and you get none. That's because I *love* you and don't want to give you up!" Granted, the other spouse might not want to have sex at all. But that doesn't remove the dilemma; it just means neither really wants to choose."

-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To wit (as an example):


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The OP is not a theif.

You cannot steal what is freely given.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay, so applying this "logic" it would be "okay" and "not stealing" for someone to hold up a bank provided that the Teller (entrusted to protect both the deposits that belong to him and to others that the bank has "covenanted" with) freely gives it to him.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When someone is holding up a bank they usually have a gun pointed at the tellers head telling them to give them the money. The teller isn't freely giving that money and the OP doesn't normally stick a gun to the WS's head and MAKE them do anything.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> In marriage, your body is no longer "yours", but it belongs to your spouse.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry...I do not agree with that. Nobody owns me nor any part of me. My body soley belongs to me and I am the only one that decides what is done to and with it. My husband married me....he didn't sign a title of ownership...he signed a marriage certificate.

-----------------------------------------

hezat...I just have to reply to you one last time.....cuz your so darn funny......NOT!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I noticed that everyone that posted after me never bother to mention the fact that I was a virgin when I met my husband and he married me (yes, came to my house and formally "begged" my mother for my hand in marriage), you know, the old fashion way.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And your point is?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm a firm believer in show me your wife and I'll tell you who you are. I am afraid of getting STD's.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">?????????????????

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I went to college after I was married, got my degree, never went on spring break (that a no-no in my family, for we all know what goes on there). My daughter is 17, just graduated high school, got 1300 on her SAT score, was the validictorian with a GPA of 3.4. She will be attending Temple University in the fall, majoring in Criminal Justice. I am very proud of her and she is of me. I've taught my daughter well - not to settle for less.

Food for thought! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The food for thought for me in this paragraph is......

Your daughter was the validictorian of her class with a GPA of 3.4? That's not even a B+.

Okay.....I'm done. It's just so friggin funny I can't help myself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When someone is holding up a bank they usually have a gun pointed at the tellers head telling them to give them the money. The teller isn't freely giving that money and the OP doesn't normally stick a gun to the WS's head and MAKE them do anything.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Miss Priss - Please don't be so dense, it isn't becoming to you at all. But okay, if you can't seem to grasp the analogy, or simply wish to continue to grasp for rationalizations, let's modify the scenario a little.

The "thief" is a friend of the Teller who has been telling the Teller how tough things are at work and that he really wants "more money" to satisfy his "needs". He walks into the bank and the Teller gives him the Bank's money. He "willingly" gave that which was not his to give.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In marriage, your body is no longer "yours", but it belongs to your spouse.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry...I do not agree with that. Nobody owns me nor any part of me. My body soley belongs to me and I am the only one that decides what is done to and with it. My husband married me....he didn't sign a title of ownership...he signed a marriage certificate. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ahhh...spoken like a typical feminist and secular humanist. However, it's totally unScriptural and the opposite of what God teaches. But since you are probably not a Christian, you fall prey to the age old lie that you are "god," sovereign, and in total control of your life, answerable to no one but your own whims and desires. Is that really what you are saying? The epitomy of selfish self-centeredness?

The reality whether you choose to believe it or not is that you HAVE been "bought and paid for" by Jesus Christ. You are NOT "your own."

But if you choose to reject Jesus Christ, allow me to be the "first" to abandon you to your own omniscience and standards. You see, there IS a "right and wrong" regardless of what anyone chooses to believe and that "right and wrong" has been established by God, who IS sovereign over all things.

I don't appreciate being called dense FH.

Especailly because I do not believe in something that you believe in.

Why is it that because you claim to be a Christian it makes it okay for you to judge me....but I'm not entitled to my opinion simply because it's mine?

Doesn't sound very Christian like to me.

Tell me something....oh...and I'm surely to be flamed for this. IF God is in control of EVERYTHING and owns EVERYBODY....why then is there a need for this board?

I'm no better than ANYONE (not even hazet)on this board...and I have never claimed to be....so as for me thinking that I am God and sovereign is a bunch of crap.

I'm done with this thread....and maybe this board....oh boo hoo....Miss Priss is leavin....so what. I'm tired of people trying to ram their views of things down others throats and acting like they are better than others because they believe in something that some others don't.

I'm entiteld to my opinion and to think the way I think.....if I wasn't.....God wouldn't allow me to.

If you don't like what I have to say....ignore me. I don't mind....really....it won't hurt my feelings. I'm a big girl...I can take it.

FH:

You're a good man, but you sometimes say things that truly amaze me. This was offensive nonsense:

"Ahhh...spoken like a typical feminist and secular humanist."

Hm... I'm not female, but I'm probably a feminist. In your view, I'm definitely a secular humanist (though I've never gone 2 a tent full of them and chanted slogans or anything). I'm reallly probably a Christian, since I was brought up as one and still believe in the ethics, morality, and spiri2al teachings of Jesus. I just don't believe in dogma, particularly fundamentalist "non-denominational" dogma. I've been exposed 2 that as well.

"However, it's totally unScriptural and the opposite of what God teaches."

Your opinion. "Opposite" is a strong word. Qualify. You often speak in absolutes.

"But since you are probably not a Christian, you fall prey to the age old lie that you are "god," sovereign, and in total control of your life, answerable to no one but your own whims and desires. Is that really what you are saying? The epitomy of selfish self-centeredness?"

Hm... If one is not a Christian, by your definition of the title, then you draw all these asinine judgemental conclusions about them? Where did this crap come from? Certainly not the Bible (though there certainly are EXAMPLES of these kind of people in the bible).

"The reality whether you choose to believe it or not is that you HAVE been "bought and paid for" by Jesus Christ. You are NOT "your own.""

Geez... I won't say it.

"But if you choose to reject Jesus Christ, allow me to be the "first" to abandon you to your own omniscience and standards."

Who are you 2 abandon anybody? You've just made a judgement you have no business making, and passed sentence you have no authority passing.

"You see, there IS a "right and wrong" regardless of what anyone chooses to believe and that "right and wrong" has been established by God, who IS sovereign over all things."

Right and wrong are relative terms. Saying that does nothing 2 diminish the importance 2 know the difference in your life. Is it right 2 kill for food? If I were the cow being transformed in2 hamburger, I wouldn't think so. But then, your god put everything here on this Earth, including this Earth, for us 2 go forth and subdue. Nice guy.

-ol' 2long

2Long - hmmmmm....let's see....it's okay for anyone BUT a Christian to hold whatever belief they choose and be judgmental of any Christian who stands up for their belief.

Nothing new in that stance....for at least the last 2000 or so years.

I'm sorry if what I say offended you, but I am NOT into "moral relativism". There IS "right and wrong." There is God and there is Satan. There is sin and there is living one's life attempting to be obedient to God's commands because one loves God and has willingly surrendered his sinful wants and desires to God's will.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In your view, I'm definitely a secular humanist (though I've never gone 2 a tent full of them and chanted slogans or anything). I'm reallly probably a Christian, since I was brought up as one and still believe in the ethics, morality, and spiri2al teachings of Jesus. I just don't believe in dogma, particularly fundamentalist "non-denominational" dogma. I've been exposed 2 that as well. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2Long, you can "choose" to be anything you want or reject anything you want. However, you cannot be a Christian by "association." The definition of a Christian is quite clear and quite simple. It is someone who has recognized that they ARE a sinner, confessed their sin to God, and accepted Jesus Christ as their own personal Lord and Savior.

Whether you accept or reject Truth is irrelevant to the truth. For example, be exposed to geography and physical science and choose to be a "flat earther." It won't change the reality that the earth is "round." Choose to reject the laws of gravity and step off a tall building because the "laws don't apply to me." Let reality (truth) exert it's own difference of opinion on you until "interrupted" by the pavement at the base of the building.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"However, it's totally unScriptural and the opposite of what God teaches."

Your opinion. "Opposite" is a strong word. Qualify. You often speak in absolutes. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry, 2Long, it is NOT my "opinion." It is clearly taught in the Scripture. Would you care to have the particular verses quoted? No, I didn't think so.

Yes, I speak in absolutes in several areas. Not all of life is "grey." There ARE black and white, right and wrong, areas. Those who choose to make themselves sovereign reject the notion that there can BE "right and wrong" independent of what THEY want. They reserve the "right" to determine what is right and what is wrong for themselves irrespective of anyone else. Totally self oriented and selfish in nature.

Whether someone like that thinks that "following the moral teachings of Jesus is a good thing for them" or whether they choose to do whatever they feel like doing is immaterial. Because when you remove the "outside" standard, right and wrong loses all meaning and is determined by the INDIVIDUAL and no one else. So bring on the saints trying to live a "good life" because they are comfortable with that for themselves and bring on the rapists of the world because THAT is what they think is a "good life" for themselves and bring on everyone doing "their own thing" for themselves because NO ONE has any right to "judge" another person's behavior.

Yep. Get real. Your bias is not against "right and wrong." Your bias and judgmental stance is against Christians, against God, and against anyone daring enough to call sin..."SIN."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"But if you choose to reject Jesus Christ, allow me to be the "first" to abandon you to your own omniscience and standards."

Who are you 2 abandon anybody? You've just made a judgement you have no business making, and passed sentence you have no authority passing. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh get real, 2Long. Just whom do you think you are going to make "cower" because 2Long is the "judge over all?" Who am I to abandon anybody? I am just like you with the right to not associate with anyone I choose not to associate with. You don't "like" the word "abandon", tough. That IS exactly what you or I or anyone does when they leave someone to their own devices. You "abandon" the discussion, the argument, the "whatever."

"You've just made a judgement you have no business making, and passed sentence you have no authority passing," 2Long, you can't have it both ways son. Either there IS a definite "right and wrong" that defines behavior and actions OR there is NONE and each individual is free to believe and do whatever they personally feel is right. So which do YOU believe in? Either way ** I ** am not being the judgmental one here, YOU are.

But that's "my" opinion and I'm not here to support my definition of "right and wrong" or marriage based on "self interest." I am here in support of God's definition whether I like it or not and whether you like it or not.

2Long, your "issue" really isn't with me. Your issue is with Jesus Christ. You choose to put yourself at enmity with Him. It still doesn't change the Truth that IS there. Jesus Christ WAS a "real live person," an historical figure if you will, who did and said certain things. He can't be ingored. You can choose to reject Him, but you can't deny His existance. The choices regarding Jesus Christ are simple. He was either a Legend (made up, didn't really exist), a Liar, a Lunatic (just "thought he was God and the Messiah in the same vein as kooks who are locked up the funny farm believe they are Napoleon), or He was LORD.

The historicity of Jesus is proven and is there for the examination, as are the facts surrounding Him. And while we are at it....OJ didn't really do it...and Osama wasn't really behind 9/11...besides, it's Osama's "right" to do whatever he thinks is right for himself regardless of how his actions might IMPACT others.

"Go out and kill those who will not think as you do" is the teaching of the Koran, not the Bible. Take your choice as to who is being "judgmental".
I'll stand on God's side of the scrimmage line and you can stand on any side you choose.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right and wrong are relative terms. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, 2Long, they are not "relative." Sin is sin and sin is wrong by God's decree. He provided us with things like the 10 Commandments to show us the difference and to convict us (make us aware) of what sin is and that it is WRONG.

HUMANS, in their selfishness and self-centeredness TRY to make things relative so that they can justify doing whatever they wish. Just like a spoiled child who thinks everything is "owed" to him simply because he "wants" it. That is where "moral relativism" comes from. "All things are 'relative', 'situational ethics', whatever excuse or justification for sinful behavior you want to dredge up" is exactly what I am talking about is the problem with your "argument."

To put it bluntly and offensively, there should be no need for Marriage Builders, or marriage in general, because the individual is "free to do whatever they want" with no one else allowed to be "judgmental" or to say some action is "Right or Wrong." I get to diddle with your wife and you have no say in the matter, besides if it's what I want and what she wants, nothing else is important or relevant and it shouldn't "bother you in the least" because you have already said that everyone gets to do whatever they "feel like or want" because right and wrong are determined only by individuals for themselves and no one else. To disagree with that is to be "judgmental." Pardon me while I go choke and puke on that one.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I were the cow being transformed in2 hamburger, I wouldn't think so. But then, your god put everything here on this Earth, including this Earth, for us 2 go forth and subdue. Nice guy. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2Long, mock God all you want. Be judgmental against God all you want. 2Long, just in case you haven't figured it out yet, there IS a huge difference between cows and people... unless you are Jeffrey Dahmer. If you believe in "nature", then one creature eating another is the normal fare.

And one other thing, there is a huge difference between "subduing" the earth in love and subduing it for sinful self-gratification.

I am somewhat surprised (not really) with your mocking, derisive tone, and childish attempts to justify sinful behavior. But that is most often the result when someone places themselves on the "throne" of their lives instead of placing the loving God of the universe on that "throne." "Choose ye this day whom ye shall serve, but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."

Service, 2Long. Willing service. An attitude of Servanthood. Giving, not taking. Think about it, if you are really so open to consideration of differing opinions.