</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm done with this thread....and maybe this board....oh boo hoo....Miss Priss is leavin....so what. I'm tired of people trying to ram their views of things down others throats and acting like they are better than others because they believe in something that some others don't.

I'm entiteld to my opinion and to think the way I think.....if I wasn't.....God wouldn't allow me to.

If you don't like what I have to say....ignore me. I don't mind....really....it won't hurt my feelings. I'm a big girl...I can take it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">oh boo hoo....someone disagrees with me and has the "temerity" to say so. Sounds a whole lot like the "Emperor and his new clothes."

"You disagree with me so I'm going to take my bat and ball and go home." Okay. Go ahead, that is your choice and your exercise of your "free will."

Miss Priss you ARE entitled to your opinion, as am I. If you don't "like" my opinion, that's tough. I am willing to support my position and "take the heat" of divergent opinions. But if you can't "stand the heat" then by all means, get out of the "kitchen."

You put out into public, for the consumption of all who might read your musings, YOUR OPINION. The implied statement is that others "should" agree with you. Guess what? It doesn't work that way. Make your argument, support your belief and opinion, and let others decide for themselves which argument is "more persuasive" or more likely to be "true."

No one "likes" to be told that they are wrong in whatever belief that they hold. So what? Are you only interested in what makes you "feel good" or are your really interested in what is true and good? If the former, then nothing anyone, including me, has to say will (or should) have any impact on you. If the latter, then stuff the "indignation" and openly and honestly examine the facts to see if there is "anything" in your beliefs or behaviors that should be changed in order for YOU to grow and become a "better person." There is a certain thing called "constructive criticism" that by it's nature says "something you believe is incorrect or something you are doing is wrong and you would be far better off individually if you changed your behavior."

THAT IS what Marriage Builders is all about. Change. Not the "status quo." What are "Love Busters" anyway? What is the need to eliminate "Love Busters"? Who cares what "Emotional Needs" there are and that they may be different between, or in different orders of importance, between a husband and a wife?

Who cares that a Certificate of Marriage in the physical "symbol" that a man and a woman have CHOSEN to volunatarily relinquish their "absolute" control over their own bodies to each other? Why even BE married if you are free to do whatever you wish with your own body regardless of an promises or covenants that you willingly made? Is it even worth the "paper it is written on?"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't appreciate being called dense FH.

Especailly because I do not believe in something that you believe in.

Why is it that because you claim to be a Christian it makes it okay for you to judge me....but I'm not entitled to my opinion simply because it's mine?

Doesn't sound very Christian like to me.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">uh huh. I notice you like to be judgmental regarding what YOU think a "Christian" should be. Apparantly it's someone who should keep their mouth shut and let you do and say whatever you please. But Christian love for you and others demands that sin be called "sin" and that dangerous arguments be confronted so that others can see that not "all" people buy into that nonsense as being "true."

But I also notice that you went on the "attack Christians" route instead of commenting on the analogy. So "dense" or not, is it "Right" to give someone something that you have contacted to protect and defend against "all outsiders," something that you "gave" to your spouse and it is now (as the recipient of that gift) theirs and no longer exclusively yours?

"Thou shalt NOT commit adultery." A definitive prohibition and "judgment" of right and wrong behavior. So whether according to God or according to the court system, adultery is WRONG and has consequences. You are NOT, under either system, "free" to do whatever you please.

So just who ARE you mad at?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The food for thought for me in this paragraph is......

Your daughter was the validictorian of her class with a GPA of 3.4? That's not even a B+.

Okay.....I'm done. It's just so friggin funny I can't help myself.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OMG!!! Then your daughter must be a as intellegant as you are! You are right....LOL You have "taught" her well!

Here in our "town" a 3.4 wouldn't get you into the top 25 percentile of your class!! LOL Where do you live??? Geez....at least "learn" how to Bull Sh*t here!

You are a VERY confused OW!

Atruheart

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm entiteld to my opinion and to think the way I think.....if I wasn't.....God wouldn't allow me to.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But Miss Priss???? You say "There is NO God???" then you USE HIM in your own message as if there is a God??? how is that?

And nobody "judged" here anyone..... only judging that happens is from God himself! (backed up by his word....the Holy Bible)

But then again.......you don't believe. Or then again.....may be YOU DO???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

How did this turn into a religeous debate??? <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Blessings,
Atruheart

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Once he cheated, he's gone baby! I am much too damn attractive. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">hezat - could simply be "in the eye of the beholder."

"Beauty is only skin deep."

Many such phrases about the idea.

"I CAN do it, therefore I WILL do it." Nevermind that it might not be the "best choice."

"What's love got to do with it?"

"Forgiveness? That's for the weak! Give me an 'eye for an eye'!"

And your "poster child" for moral, ethical, and 'proper' behavior is a thrice married Other Woman who inserted herself into someone else's marriage?

It DOES take "all types" to make up the world, but you are most definitely NOT a Marriage Builder, nor a supporter of marital values. You ARE a supporter of marriage as a convenience and when it is no longer "convenient" you throw it away like used toilet paper.

Sheesh!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Miss Priss you ARE entitled to your opinion, as am I. If you don't "like" my opinion, that's tough. I am willing to support my position and "take the heat" of divergent opinions. But if you can't "stand the heat" then by all means, get out of the "kitchen." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've withstood more "heat" than ALOT of other posters here....and believe me...YOUR post alone would not make me leave this board.

I don't think I said....boo hoo....FH said something mean to me and now I'm leaving.

Don't flatter yourself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Why even BE married if you are free to do whatever you wish with your own body regardless of an promises or covenants that you willingly made? Is it even worth the "paper it is written on?" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You take way too many things out of context.

You see the things that I say in a different way than I see them.

I said that my body was mine.....not my husbands....and you bring God into it.

I said that the OP isn't a theif...and you bring God into it.

I myself am not sure how this became a religious debate.

You make it seem like since I've said that my body is my own and I can do whatever I wish with it that I will break the promises made in my vows, just because I made that statement. I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion.

I do believe in God...I just don't think the way you think.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I notice you like to be judgmental regarding what YOU think a "Christian" should be. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, I simply stated that being judgmental doesn't sound very Christian like to me.

Not judging....stating a fact.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is a certain thing called "constructive criticism" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is a line between constructive criticism and being rude and judgmental. Constructive criticism doesn't involve calling people names. That is just childish.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thou shalt NOT commit adultery." A definitive prohibition and "judgment" of right and wrong behavior. So whether according to God or according to the court system, adultery is WRONG and has consequences. You are NOT, under either system, "free" to do whatever you please. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm wondering if you can tell me why you are telling me this....since I'm so dense.

I don't think that I have EVER said that adultery was a "good thing" or right.

I don't believe I've ever said I was ABOVE either system either. You are just taking from my posts what you want from them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But Christian love for you and others demands that sin be called "sin" and that dangerous arguments be confronted so that others can see that not "all" people buy into that nonsense as being "true." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry FH....not feelin any love comin from ya, just judgment on the way I word things....and the things that you think I think and the way you think I am.

Now....I'm done. I've said all I am going to say. I do not have to explain myself any further to you and I'm not going to participate in a religous debate.

“2Long - hmmmmm....let's see....it's okay for anyone BUT a Christian to hold whatever belief they choose and be judgmental of any Christian who stands up for their belief.”

You certainly didn’t get this idea from me, FH. …or you did, but the machinations that got you there are entirely of your own making.

“Nothing new in that stance....for at least the last 2000 or so years.”

Perhaps, but you digress.

“I'm sorry if what I say offended you, but I am NOT into "moral relativism". There IS "right and wrong."

That wasn’t what offended me. What offended me was your judgmental tirade against your “non-Christians” (meaning, your definition). I never got that tone reading Jesus’ teachings, but I get it all the time from people like you.

“2Long, you can "choose" to be anything you want or reject anything you want. However, you cannot be a Christian by "association."”

ForeverHers, with all due respect, I can “do whatever I want”, including be a “Christian by association”, assuming that your latest thought path has anything 2 do with what I believe in or “want 2 do.” It really doesn’t, though. You’re losing me again. Don’t misunderstand that statement, either. I’m not getting confused, you’re missing the mark. You’re attempting 2 define who ol’ 2long is and what ol’ 2long wants, but you have no idea but a pair of opposite absolutes 2 work from. You missed!

“Sorry, 2Long, it is NOT my "opinion." It is clearly taught in the Scripture. Would you care to have the particular verses quoted? No, I didn't think so.”

No? 2uote away! Stop assuming you know what I want.

“Yes, I speak in absolutes in several areas. Not all of life is "grey." There ARE black and white, right and wrong, areas.”

And by your own implication, there are “gray areas” as well.

“Those who choose to make themselves sovereign reject the notion that there can BE "right and wrong" independent of what THEY want. They reserve the "right" to determine what is right and what is wrong for themselves irrespective of anyone else. Totally self oriented and selfish in nature.”

The original assertion bugged me, so I looked this up, and I 2uote:

“…while there is no need for an inspired arithmetic or an inspired geometry, while there is no inspired chemistry or geology, there had to be, apparently, an inspired morality, because without God moral laws would be without authority, and decency would disappear from human society… …Morality is a natural fact; it is not created by the formulation of "laws"; these only express its existence and our sense of value. The moral feeling creates the moral law; not the other way about. Morality has nothing to do with God; it has nothing to do with a future life. Its sphere of application and operation is in this world; its authority is derived from the common sense of mankind and is born of the necessities of corporate life. In this matter, as in others, man is thrown back upon himself and if the process of development is a slow one there is the comforting reflection that the growth of knowledge and of understanding has placed within our reach the power to make human life a far greater and better thing. If we will!!” from “Morality without God” - Chapman Cohen.

And I am sincerely sorry if you find that offensive.

“So bring on the saints trying to live a "good life" because they are comfortable with that for themselves and bring on the rapists of the world because THAT is what they think is a "good life" for themselves and bring on everyone doing "their own thing" for themselves because NO ONE has any right to "judge" another person's behavior.

Yep. Get real. Your bias is not against "right and wrong." Your bias and judgmental stance is against Christians, against God, and against anyone daring enough to call sin..."SIN."”

This is so utterly bizarre, FH. I have no idea where you’re coming from, except 2 think that you feel this way because you believe that atheists (or any religious person that doesn’t fall within your extraordinarily narrow definition of Christian), are amoral. How many Christian rapists have there been? Oxymoron, 2 be sure, but I think you know what I mean.


“Oh get real, 2Long. Just whom do you think you are going to make "cower" because 2Long is the "judge over all?"”

Cower? Ol’ 2long want 2 make anybody cower??? You clearly don’t know me at all.

“You don't "like" the word "abandon", tough. That IS exactly what you or I or anyone does when they leave someone to their own devices. You "abandon" the discussion, the argument, the "whatever."”

I see what you’re saying in the last sentence here, but I don’t agree with your premise. For example, when in plan B, Mbers are NOT “abandoning” the WS, but giving them the oppor2nity 2 learn something. Plan B is a loving act, not an abandonment, though it might seem like that 2 the WS.

“2Long, you can't have it both ways son.”

I’m not your son.

“Either there IS a definite "right and wrong" that defines behavior and actions OR there is NONE and each individual is free to believe and do whatever they personally feel is right. So which do YOU believe in?”

Ah yes, black and white. Religion/morality or anarchy. No gray. Regardless of whether there ever is or was an absolute definition of right or wrong, each individual is STILL free (indeed, morally obligated) 2 believe and do what they personally feel is right. It’s always been so. Always will be so. Religious or not, the choice is still in front of us all the time. Which do I believe in?… …I believe that “salvation,” as you call it, must be sought constantly – it is NOT a one-off event.

“2Long, your "issue" really isn't with me.”

Yes, my issue really is with you. Me and Jesus are doing fine.

“Your issue is with Jesus Christ. You choose to put yourself at enmity with Him.”

From the dictionary: “Enmity is hatred such as might be felt for an enemy: the wartime enmity of the two nations.”

Again, I can make no sense out of your characterizations of me. Nothing 2 address here, except 2 say that you are grievously incorrect.

“It still doesn't change the Truth that IS there. Jesus Christ WAS a "real live person," an historical figure if you will, who did and said certain things. He can't be ingored.”

Have I said different?

“And while we are at it....OJ didn't really do it...and Osama wasn't really behind 9/11...besides, it's Osama's "right" to do whatever he thinks is right for himself regardless of how his actions might IMPACT others. Go out and kill those who will not think as you do" is the teaching of the Koran, not the Bible. Take your choice as to who is being "judgmental".”

Are you suggesting that, because a madman chooses 2 murder thousands of people, the religion he purports 2 be a champion for is also evil? Heck, even Binnie’s own family doesn’t support him!

"I'll stand on God's side of the scrimmage line and you can stand on any side you choose.”

Cute. Missed again!! This particularly "scrimmage line" is between you and me, not God and "everything else, that's bad and nothing but." You can't just lump me in the black, like you seem 2 want 2 do.

“HUMANS, in their selfishness and self-centeredness TRY to make things relative so that they can justify doing whatever they wish. Just like a spoiled child who thinks everything is "owed" to him simply because he "wants" it. That is where "moral relativism" comes from. "All things are 'relative', 'situational ethics', whatever excuse or justification for sinful behavior you want to dredge up" is exactly what I am talking about is the problem with your "argument."”

Again, you missed! I have no desire 2 “justify sinful behavior”. More 2 the point, my own life experience, I’m not even trying 2 understand my W’s A – as there is nothing 2 understand. I’m trying 2 restore the morality 2 my M that I’ve believed in all along.

“I get to diddle with your wife and you have no say in the matter, besides if it's what I want and what she wants, nothing else is important or relevant and it shouldn't "bother you in the least" because you have already said that everyone gets to do whatever they "feel like or want" because right and wrong are determined only by individuals for themselves and no one else. To disagree with that is to be "judgmental." Pardon me while I go choke and puke on that one.”

Believe me, I choked and puked after this bizarre tirade myself! Made absolutely no sense 2 me. Sorry.

“2Long, mock God all you want.”

No desire 2. It’s much more fun mocking you! Sorry, I don’t really mean that. Seriously, what makes you think I’m mocking God?

“I am somewhat surprised (not really) with your mocking, derisive tone, and childish attempts to justify sinful behavior. But that is most often the result when someone places themselves on the "throne" of their lives instead of placing the loving God of the universe on that "throne."”

Um… …huh?? Missed again.

“Service, 2Long. Willing service. An attitude of Servanthood. Giving, not taking. Think about it, if you are really so open to consideration of differing opinions.”

I don’t disagree, though you won’t understand. Gray.

-ol’ 2long

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Is this what you call threadjacking....

XaX:

Yes, it is... (ol' 2long hangs head in shame) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Sorry about that, toofedup.

-ol' 2long

I know I said I was done with this one....but I thought an apology was in order.

Miss Priss hangs her head in shame too.....only for getting off subject though. I won't hang my head in shame for MY opinion.

And being a little childish....

I DIDN'T START IT!!

I'm sorry toofedup.

By the way....I chose to apologize....God didn't make me to do it.

<small>[ July 15, 2004, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: Miss Priss ]</small>

Hezat: I agree with you. I don't really comprehend why wives stay with their husbands unless they don't love them anymore and it is a marriage of convenience. I am fascinated by the postings because infidelity seems like one huge endless nightmare and I don't think many of the problems can be worked out. I think it's quite unrealistic. Once a cheater always a cheater and once caught, if the spouse forgives them ,I mean what will stop them from doing it again.

I don't think human beings are wired to want to be with ONE person all their lives unless the connection is so huge so strong and they need to really work at it. But once the mirror is broken, is it really worth fixing the broken pieces? Economincally, split the assets and go, work, who cares as long as you don't have to live with a dog who cheats on you. Children, people have coped with this before and they always will be able to - may not be ideal but I think better to have seperated parents than parents who live in hell together.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Once a cheater always a cheater and once caught, if the spouse forgives them ,I mean what will stop them from doing it again. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.

Affairs happen for countless number of reasons. Don't assume that they are all lumped together.

In my case, my H never wanted to LEAVE me, he never wanted to live happily ever after with the OW. We both contributed to the breakdown of our marriage.

I chose to forgive him, he chose to forgive me, and we are working hard, no let me rephrase, we are ENJOYING our marriage and are THANKFUL it is better than it ever WAS.

It was a big WAKE up call. There is truth in what hezat said, I realized that someone else WOULD step up to the plate if I failed to even try. Well I'll never leave that field open again.

We aren't miserably married. We have no children together, we are both educated and make a pretty decent living, have no financial dependencies on each other. Why are we together and the OW is long gone ? Because 2 is company and 3 is a crowd. Somebody had to go. Guess it wasn't me.

As for the rest of this threadjacking...WOW... don't know what's worse, religion or politics, but neither makes good conversation. I'm staying far away from that discussion.

Oh my GOD, what has this board become? Yipes.

The original article on Dr. Phil's thread has a lot of good points. It speaks to the value of women, OW or wife, by asking them to consider all who are hurting because of the affair.

What transpired on this thread since the article was posted is mind-boggling, at best.

I would like to address the "Once a cheater, always a cheater" thing.

I believe that a MARRIAGE is FOREVER changed by adultery. It can be changed for BETTER or for WORSE. But it will NEVER EVER EVER EVER be the same again. EVER. (Just in case I wasn't clear)

And people CAN AND DO change, as well. Thank God for that, because without that hope all the bad people in the world would remain just that - bad.

Life is ever-changing...

But...

Since marriage is changed forever, the trust is also changed forever, and it may "feel" like "once a cheater..." because you, as the BS, will *never* feel that level of trust again.

But that doesn't mean the WS will cheat again. What it does mean is that you'll (perhaps) always worry that they might.

JMHO (and not really so humble)...

)

Hey Hezat,

Wrong. God DOES view some sins worse than others...in addition, repeated practice of sin carries with an 'unrepentant' attitude...

God takes that very seriously. Beware.

Wrong. God DOES view some sins worse than others...in addition, repeated practice of sin carries with an 'unrepentant' attitude...

Where did you get this from? Which Bible? We have all sinned and fallen short of HIS glory. That is why we should pray incessantly - not only in the nights, or in the mornings, or when our hubby's cheat (all of a sudden some people become hollier than thou), but at each and every waking moment we should petition Him through His son Jesus Christ.

So, if you came to the conclusion that I am a big "sinner" because I voiced my opinion about your lifestyle - well so be it. God is a God of Justice, Love, Peace, Strength (just a few of his attributes), tha tis why He and He alone is capable of judging us. I am not judging anyone here, I am merely stating what I believe in - is that so wrong?

The original article from Dr. Phil was very good. The rest of this is scary guys! What's up?

If you wonder why we all do what we do...stay with our partners, leave our partners, refuse to ever love again because it's too risky, etc....just look inside. The healthy reasons and the unhealthy ones...they are all there.


http://www.coping.org/growdwn/inner.htm

Stillwed

Still: Apparently we have been "graced" with the presence of an ABSOLUTELY PERFECT PERSON named "hezat." And apparently, she has only allowed other similarly "perfect" people, such as her B+ Valedictorian daughter, to remain in her life. My goodness, if her daughter were to go on spring break, would she need to disown her? Or, GASP, have premarital sex? Or make some other HEINOUS, UNFORGIVABLE OFFENSE! Fortunately for our dear perfect person, no such tragedy ever has or ever will befall her... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Bow, in AWE of the fact that she got married as a VIRGIN! OOOOO! AHHHHH! Behold the glory of the fact her first husband asked her parents for her hand, the ONLY APPROVED WAY TO ENGAGE IN MARRIAGE! Be blown away by the fact that she NEVER ONCE IN COLLEGE WENT ON SPRING BREAK! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

And thus, since forgetting a slight or an injury is patently impossible, and forgiveness of said injuries must be likewise impossible, has fortunately never had someone she loved "sin" against her that would require her to either forgive them (impossible) or hit the cosmic ejector seat and give them the boot out of her life (apparently her preferred method for dealing with transgressors who don't meet her standard of perfection).

Stillwed, sweetie, we better hope she doesn't go to In Recovery and read some of the complicated success stories over there like yours and mine. Her poor widdle narrow mind would simply MELT! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

ROFLMAO

<small>[ July 28, 2004, 08:32 PM: Message edited by: Kat72 ]</small>

Lol, Kat! I'm just trying to figure out what the heck she's doing in the "Just Found Out" section???? Or on a marriage building site for any reason if she's not married. She might want to reconsider a second marriage if she's bored enough to spend time here!

On a serious note though. Nobody gets that mean and vicious without having suffered some kind of pain in their lives. Maybe she's here to learn about inner child work!

Still

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Still: Apparently we have been "graced" with the presence of an ABSOLUTELY PERFECT PERSON named "hezat." And apparently, she has only allowed other similarly "perfect" people, such as her B+ Valedictorian daughter, to remain in her life. My goodness, if her daughter were to go on spring break, would she need to disown her? Or, GASP, have premarital sex? Or make some other HEINOUS, UNFORGIVABLE OFFENSE! Fortunately for our dear perfect person, no such tragedy ever has or ever will befall her...

Bow, in AWE of the fact that she got married as a VIRGIN! OOOOO! AHHHHH! Behold the glory of the fact her first husband asked her parents for her hand, the ONLY APPROVED WAY TO ENGAGE IN MARRIAGE! Be blown away by the fact that she NEVER ONCE IN COLLEGE WENT ON SPRING BREAK!

And thus, since forgetting a slight or an injury is patently impossible, and forgiveness of said injuries must be likewise impossible, has fortunately never had someone she loved "sin" against her that would require her to either forgive them (impossible) or hit the cosmic ejector seat and give them the boot out of her life (apparently her preferred method for dealing with transgressors who don't meet her standard of perfection).
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not perfect sweatheart - don't you know there are no perfect person living in this system of things?

Having a husband cheat on you not once, not twice, but a lot of time is not what would be classify as "slight". This kind of revelation is heartrending. I don't believe I should stay with someone I can't trust. My husband never cheated on me. He was an alcoholic. Yes, I said it. If I were still married to him, this December with make 20 years (longer than most of you have to your spouses). I divorced him after (became final) 17 1/2 years of marriage. I could not deal with the promised and the "sorrys" and the "will never do it again" thing. It was not funny anymore. Our daughter was growing up and was afraid to bring her friends home because she'd be embarrassed by her father's drunkeness. She cried many tears. You'd think that would have him changed - NO! His explanation was that he was not hurting anyone but himself. That was wrong - he was hurting both of us. When drunk he would talk things that he wouldn't even remember saying when he got sober. Living with him was just a total nightmare. He had a low tollerance to alcoholic - 4 Budweiser light beer would get him drunk! I tried talking him into going to AA, he refused saying nothing was wrong with him. And he just continued, and continued, sometimes drunk to the point of not even knowing he brought him home. Also because of that he's been mugged several times - beaten badly and taken to the hospital, have to miss work for days, etc, etc, etc.

I din't love him anymore. I had to get myself and daughter out - I was becoming a co-dependant. I had to let our daughter see that there was better. Parents should be their children's role model (not superstars). I didn't want her to reason later on in life that If my mother stayed with all that crap it must not be all that bad. I asked him to leave, he would not, so I changed the locks on the door, he went to live with his mother, shortly after I bought a house in another state and moved. He is still getting drunk and being mugged and telling everyone that I left him for no reason.

Marriage counselor? Hell, no! Go consult someone who don't know me from a hole in the wall to convince me that I was doing the wrong thing by leaving? I knew this man since I was 18. He was supposed to be my partner for life, and we were to have many children - that's what I thought.

I equate a drunkard and a cheater on the same level. Maybe I've been a little harsh when I said if my husband cheated once that I would leave him immediately - probably not (that is where the imperfection comes in). But if I could not trust him anymore, and constantly reminding him of what he did, that in itself is grief. Why stay and do that? I'd rather leave.

My daughter means everything to me - I am proud of her. You know what she said to me once? I asked her If me and her father got back together if she would he happy. She said she would never speak to me again! From the mouth of babes - what more do I want?

Another thing, I never went on spring break, I will encourage my daughter not to go on spring break. She never went to her prom either. I do not like to hear the horrow stories associated with these things - I believe prevent is better than to cure, and I will not settle for less - not anymore.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lol, Kat! I'm just trying to figure out what the heck she's doing in the "Just Found Out" section???? Or on a marriage building site for any reason if she's not married. She might want to reconsider a second marriage if she's bored enough to spend time here!

On a serious note though. Nobody gets that mean and vicious without having suffered some kind of pain in their lives. Maybe she's here to learn about inner child work! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i WAS JUST SURFING - LOOKING AT HOW PATHETIC YOU SOUND.

yes i did suffer some kind of pain - I loved and married an alcoholic - that is why I am able to take my stand - once bitten, twice shy. Get the hell out.

All you do is cut and paste - good job! I come here to see if you have learnt anything from the constant philandering in your lives - nothing. You still want these men. What will make you wake up and leave? Probably if he left a sock on the dining room table, eh?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Me: BS, age 45, Enneagram Type 1w2
H: WS, age 45, Enneagram Type 4w3
Married: 27 years
Children: 3 Ages: 26, 24 & 20
D-day #1: November, 1986, after having one affair
D-day #2: January 4, 2003, H confessed 8 more affairs that happened from 1990-2002, including a then current "exit" affair. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What a track record??? Arn't you running a high fever? Have mercy! What is this - forgiveness? No darling, you are a doormat!

One thing is for sure, at least someone wants him, find him attractive. What about you? Noone thinks you are worth it? AH!! Chin up.