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Myrta,

I wanted to start a thread for you. I realize you feel you don't want to post here, but I am hoping you change your mind. What I want to talk about is NOT the A per se', but rather things about now and the future.

I wanted to ask you what you have learned about yourself, your H, your marriage, your desires for life? I wanted to ask you how this has changed you and what are the good things that have come from this in regard to YOU and how you see things?

I want to discuss with you, some ideas about what your H is looking for when He wants you to open up.

In short, I want to discuss learning, perspective, and ideas for the future with you.

I look forward to hearing from you.

God Bless,

JL

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JL [Confused] Why do you want to start a thread about my confusion???
What have I learned about myself?
I have learned that I am a horrible woman, that does not deserve her husband, now more than ever!
I have learned that the cheating thing is much more serious than I ever imagined!
I have learned that my husband is much more emotional than I ever thought!
PLANS FOR MY FUTURE???
Right now, is my future. I take day to day with my husband, with myself, with my family, with my concience.
I have not make any plans for my future, it seems pretty bleak to me!
Take care
Myrta [Roll Eyes]

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Myrta -

Good to see you again. You are not a bad woman, but a good woman. Even your husband says so.

Your future is not bleak, but can be brighter than ever. Please think about JL's questions. He is very good at helping people sort things out.

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Myrta--

I have lurked on your thread and Stanley's for a little bit now, although I spend most of my time in the EN boards.

I've been reading, rivetted to your story, unlike others because of you, Myrta. Because of how *good* it is to watch you grow and better yourself. Honestly, Myrta, it is very good to see you regain with ferocity your love for your husband.

People make foolish mistakes, some more than others. I have certainly made my own. You are showing what separates a good person from a bad person, though. The ability to recognize a mistake for what it is, to try to recover from it, and try to make amends.

God be with you, Myrta!

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Myrta,

Ummm, just as I thought. Ok, then it is time for the lashes with the wet noodle (I'll save the 2x4 for later [Smile] ).

quote:
I have learned that I am a horrible woman, that does not deserve her husband, now more than ever!
Let's see a horrible woman huh?? I don't think so, you don't get off that easy. Your H thinks he deserves you, in fact he wants ALL OF YOU. Heck, the man is starving for you. Myrta don't you see that? That is why he is struggling so, he loves you. You clearly are NOT a horrible woman. You don't make a habit of this sort of thing do you? Of course not. So stop that line of thinking.

quote:
I have learned that the cheating thing is much more serious than I ever imagined!
Excellent, now you need to learn how to rebuild this marriage into something that satisfies you and your H. It can and will be done Myrta, we are not letting you off that easy. [Wink]


quote:
I have learned that my husband is much more emotional than I ever thought!
Is that a good thing or a bad thing? I think it is a good thing. But, now you know what he is asking for when he says he wants you to open up to him. I'll go into detail in a moment, but he needs your reassurances. Don't worry he will start believing them again. You just keep giving them to him.

quote:
PLANS FOR MY FUTURE???
Right now, is my future. I take day to day with my husband, with myself, with my family, with my concience.

That is a good thing in many ways, but it does leave you a little short on smiles and happiness doesn't it?? Time will help this as you two work through things, but having a plan is a good thing.
quote:
I have not make any plans for my future, it seems pretty bleak to me!
It does? Why? Talk to me Myrta, why does your future seem bleak? Is it because you are depressed? If so you might want to consider anti-D's for awhile. Just think about it. Myrta your future is NOT bleak. It has the potential to be a very very good one. You now know your H like you never have and he is hanging in there. It will take awhile but don't give up and he won't. You two need to plan your next vacation together, what you will do for the holidays in a few months. Give each other plenty to look forward to.

Have you figured out what Stanley wants when he says he wants you to open up?? I have been thinking about this for a few days now and I wanted to offer my thoughts for your consideration.

Look at what he seems stuck on. It seems to me that you clearly indicated that you wanted OM and to be with him. In my mind this is a clue. Further, you stated that he had sort of not been himself or withdrawn from the marriage before all of this started. Now this suggests to me he was not getting from you what he needed and what he needed is not what he USED to need.

Myrta, it has been my observation as us guys get older, we change and in ways perhaps more than women. We go from focusing on a career and sex and family, to starting to see the end of our careers, the slowing down of sex, the children leaving and we like women ask "was I good enough?" We lose our confidence and we need to be told that we are wanted. Sound familiar? It is what women say as well.

Myrta, what I think (and I may be wrong) is that what Stanley wants is for you to need him in your life, for you to be able to tell him you love him and need him. I know you don't feel so secure right now, but I suspect and again I may be wrong, that he needs a lot of reassurance from you and he needed it before any of this happened. If you think about your emails with OM, they were doing nothing else but reassuring him. You H wants that, needs that.

He is more emotional than you thought, he is more sensitive than you thought, and he is and always has been more dependent on you than you thought. Myrta he is still all of these things, and that is why he hurts like he does. But you can recover all of this and get more, if you start to see what he really needs. He needs you to "love" him as in the verb to "love", as the vows in a marriage mean. The marriage vows are not talking about feelings they are talking about the voluntary action of loving another. You can do this, and I think you are.

Myrta, you got lost for awhile, but you are back. Smile at that, rejoice in it, and your smile will help your H more than you can realize.

No need to be down on yourself, we did that for you. [Eek!] Now it is time to build up and rebuild. You have a lot to offer your H, your family, your friends so don't hide out, get out, and get with it. OK?

Please think about this. One final thing realize that Stanley was a little hot because I was pushing HIS BUTTONS. I was challenging his thinking, and I wanted him to start to focus outward, not just inward. I hope that his time away on this trip will allow him to see this. It was NOT about you, but him accepting the obvious. ONce he does that, just as the steps in grieving a death, he can move to recovery.

You may not understand this, but it is Stanley we need to work on: you, I, the people on this site. Hang in there, you can do this. And Myrta, SMILE [Smile] I am betting it is a beautiful smile and Stanley will love to see it.

God Bless,

JL

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JUST LEARNING [Confused]
tHE WOman you described to my husband, is indeed a horrible person. I can see it! Gosh, the woman you talk about, I DONT LIKE AT ALL!!! She seems like a callous,uncaring,selfish,with no values kinda of woman.
JL----How can I possibly be a rock for my husband, when I feel like I am in the brink of a precipice!! I feel like I am walking in a tigh-rope-trapeze and there is no net under to catch me, if I do a false move! Thats how I feel.
I just read my husbands last post, and he said it himself. How can I know, he is not going to change his mind, 3-6-9 months down the road? See, I know, right now, he thinks and feels he wants to stay married to me, but I dont think he can handle this!!! It is too much for him to bear. And it comes back to the perfection thing. There cannot be any mars or imperfections in our lives, everything has to be perfect on his "eyes". O therwise, it does not work!! I have always believe, that pure perfection especially in a marriage DOES NOT EXIST!!! Even the happiest couple, has things that they would like to change, but they accept that ,thats the way life is. NOT 100% PERFECT!!!
I wish I could be what he wants me to be right now, strong, loving, sexual 24-7, convincing, but I just cannot do it. I dont feel that way. I am not a hypocrite, he knows that!!! I could put on an act, to try to make him happy, but he will know that I am not into it! Is like when sometimes, I really dont want to make love, but I do it anyways, but I am not really into it. Dont get me wrong, at the end, I have a great time, but at the beginning, and thru it, I am not myself, and he knows it. He likes it when I am 100% enjoying what we are doing. Right now, I know I am not 100% myself yet. I need time, to sort myself, to feel right about myself. To feel that I am not dirty and a bad woman, because I was unfaithful to him. He tells me many times, that your marriage is not special anymore, because I did it with another man [Teary] But I still think it is, because my husband was the one that took my virginity not the OM!!!
You tell me, JL, why should I smile and be happy right now? I dont feel happy, knowing that at any moment, my husband is going to tell me, "pack your bags, you are out of here"!!! Thats how I feel, I feel unsure, insecure about my future with him. I am usually very strong about decisions, and problems, but now it seems like this one is TOO BIG, for me to handle, for US to handle. I have always try to solve the problems that arise with our children. Would not tell my husband, so he wouldnot worry, so he would not lose any sleep over those problems. Because I know, he does not like problems,or dilemmas in his life. I know that, he knows that! [Roll Eyes]
I really dont know what to do, what to say, how to act with him!!! Yeah, yeah, you say, answer the questions he asks, and he will be at peace,happy, but THAT IS NOT ENOUGH> I have told him, many things, more , I am sure than any other WW here, but yet, is not enough.
Just now, while I am writing this post, I am talking to one of our daughters online, and she is praising me as a mother, as a woman, [Frown] And it makes me sad, if she only knew what kind of woman her mother really is!!!
Take care
Myrta

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Oh my God, Myrta, you are so hard on yourself. Your husband wants you, loves you, and always will. He tells us many times here what a good woman, good mother, good wife you have been.

You are not a horrible person, please get over that.

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Believer [Frown] You are indeed a great, beautiful person. You always manage to make me feel better about myself. I truly believe you mean those words even though I dont know you in person [Frown]
I feel the truth in them when YOU write them. I cannot say the same when my husband writes them, or tells me.
I wish I could be as optimistic as you are. I wish you were close by so I can come and get "pep talks" from you!
Thank YOU
Myrta

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Believer [Frown] You are indeed a great, beautiful person. You always manage to make me feel better about myself. I truly believe you mean those words even though I dont know you in person [Frown]
I feel the truth in them when YOU write them. I cannot say the same when my husband writes them, or tells me.
I wish I could be as optimistic as you are. I wish you were close by so I can come and get "pep talks" from you!
Thank YOU
Myrta

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BELIEVER===
SORRY ABOUT THE DOUBLE POST!!!
BUT, ANYWAYS I DOUBLE MEAN IT!!! [Razz] [Smile]

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Myrta,

I agree with believer. You are not defined by any one particular thing that you did - your daughter is exactly right in thinking what she thinks. She thinks that because of the way you treated her in your relationship with her - and that is just as much a part of who you are as your relationship with Stanley. In any case, Stanley does not think that you are a bad person.
Maybe you can take some deep breaths and start doing some nice things for yourself - hobbies, things that you are good at, favours for friends or for your kids.

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Myrta------------ I told you you this AM in the airport THAT I HAVE NO PLANS FOR DIVORCE AND THAT I DO NOT ANTICIPATE A CHANGE OF MIND. I am 500% sure I want to stay married. I don't know how else to say it. I think that post by TMCM saying that many BS change their minds got to you. I WILL NOT CHANGE MY MIND, NEVER! You would have to go back to the OM for me to change my mind and I believe you are done with the OM.

Myrta------ you are the only woman I ever loved, I don't want to start over. You have filled all my needs all my life. I would have to be a dummy to leave you. In fact the OM said in one of those emails I intercepted that I would have to be out of my mind to leave you. Even the OM understood my decision!

I beg you to listen to JL. I think he has the key and in the end we are going ton be very happy (I am planning to do so, I don't know about you).

CIAO from South Beach

[ September 30, 2004, 08:40 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]

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Aaaaah. Ain't love sweet. Myrta - check out the MB picture album, and you will see me in real life. Also find some pictures of you and your husband. And post them.

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Myrta my comments about how some BS's are unable to handle the emotional rollercoaster and end up leaving and divorcing their WS, DO NOT apply to Stanley. I am not saying this to make you feel better, I am telling you this because it is the truth. BS's that can't handle their WS's affair DO NOT come to MB and post. The folks here [BS and WS] are a breed apart and are heroic in their efforts to save and rebuild their marriages in rising above their pain [BS] and remorse [WS]. Folks like you and your Stanley.

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Believer----where do I see the pictures of all of you? Kiwi also told me about those pictures, but I cannot find them!!! [Confused]
Myrta

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TooMuchCoffeeMan--- [Frown]
Oh,no,no, I did not say that in my post because of what you said. Those are my real fears, I had them since day one. We used to post somewhere else, and all the people there, all very bitter people, would say to me, that EVERYONE eventually changes their mind, and that everything that you say is use against YOU!!! Meaning, that everything, that I would tell to my H about the affair, he will use against me in the future. And then leave me!!
I know my husband loves me, I know that, but...this is a very hard,.unbereable thing for him to take!
Thank you for you comments!
Myrta

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JUST LEARNING!!!!

WHERE ARE YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU???? [Confused]

[Roll Eyes]

[Confused]

I NEED A GOOD POST FROM YOU!! A POSITIVE ONE, NOT A DEPRESSING ONE!!!

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Myrta,

Well, you will get what I think but I hope what I think will help you. You said
quote:
JUST LEARNING
tHE WOman you described to my husband, is indeed a horrible person. I can see it! Gosh, the woman you talk about, I DONT LIKE AT ALL!!! She seems like a callous,uncaring,selfish,with no values kinda of woman.

Yup, she was just as you describe. But, Myrta if you believe in the "fog" of an affair, then you also must understand that it affects what people say and do. The woman as described does NOT exist any longer. That is the point of affairs, they are fantasy, people do strange and sometime very painful things while in an affair, but that is NOT usually them. Don't you see that is why the whole site exists, why Harley wrote these books.

He observed that most affairs end, and when they end and the fantasy is offer the WS often becomes someone their spouse can love and does love. His feeling was that too many people quit on their marriage while a spouse was in the affair, and if they hung in there, the affair would end and then the marriage could be rebuilt. And it is true it can.

Your H's biggest fear is that you are not out of the fog and thus OM is still present. Notice he does not fear YOU, he fears the fog. He knows and I think you are showing that the woman he has loved for most of his life is back. She is there.

Do you see why I was pushing his buttons. He had to face the reality of the "fog" and your actions while in it so that he could accept that you are back as the fog clears.
quote:
JL----How can I possibly be a rock for my husband, when I feel like I am in the brink of a precipice!! I feel like I am walking in a tigh-rope-trapeze and there is no net under to catch me, if I do a false move! Thats how I feel.
I know you feel this way. It is normal and that is why recovery doesn't happen in a day. You have to heal as does your H. You need help with this and guess who can help you most? Your H, but you must listen to him. Don't just listen to his rants, but listen to him when he tells you and shows you he loves you. You will begin to see the loving actions dominate the rants. By the same token, now that you feel the way you do, consider that this is pretty much how he feels. He was a "rock" and now he feels like gravel. Who can help him the most? You. He needs to listen to you and not just to the "fog" talk but to the times you tell him you love him. As you have seen the fog talk is diminishing, but I sense you are seeing and feeling your love for him more each day.

Do you see the process Myrta? You are doing better than you think. You just need to listen to your H and hear about his love for you.
quote:
I just read my husbands last post, and he said it himself. How can I know, he is not going to change his mind, 3-6-9 months down the road?
You cannot know, any more than you know you won't get hit by a truck or discover one of you has a terminal disease in 3-6-9 months. But, you can act on the now and that has influence on the future. You said yourself.

quote:
See, I know, right now, he thinks and feels he wants to stay married to me, but I dont think he can handle this!!!
You know he wants you and loves you, but you don't think he is strong enough? Why? because he is showing he has emotions, feelings, pain, love? You are making a huge disrespectful judgement here. Stop it.

quote:
It is too much for him to bear. And it comes back to the perfection thing. There cannot be any mars or imperfections in our lives, everything has to be perfect on his "eyes". O therwise, it does not work!![quote]

Myrta he knows you are not perfect, and he has known for years he is not perfect although in his profession he needs to be as near perfect as he can get. Don't you see the OPPORTUNITIES to grow you marriage to a new level, now that the perfection thing has been firmly put to rest.

Myrta, you have been given an opportunity that many don't really ever get. I don't recommend your methods [Smile] but the result is that you NOW KNOW YOUR H LOVES YOU DEEPLY. He is showing this to you. You have been given the gift of KNOWING he loves you, whereas many of us guess and hope our spouses love us.


[quote] I have always believe, that pure perfection especially in a marriage DOES NOT EXIST!!! Even the happiest couple, has things that they would like to change, but they accept that ,thats the way life is. NOT 100% PERFECT!!!

So knowing this can you accept Stanley as your H? He is not perfect, he failed you by your own words. He has not been "stoic", he has been angry, he has been hurt, he has probably cried about this. Nope not perfect by a long run, so can you accept that he is NOT perfect. You say you can accept it, so why would you quit now? You may not think he is perfect, and you may not think the marriage is perfect, but you know it can be improved, and you KNOW he loves you deeply. Myrta it is time you decided to fight for this marriage although it is not perfect. No sense sitting somewhere pouting about it or feeling sorry for yourself. It is time to take that "imperfect" H of yours in your arms and love him, and tell him you do. He needs you to accept him.
quote:
I wish I could be what he wants me to be right now, strong, loving, sexual 24-7, convincing, but I just cannot do it. I dont feel that way.
So let me see are you saying that because he is not perfect you cannot love him? That you don't love him? All he has ever wanted is for you to love him and tell him you do. All he has ever wanted to do is be a man you respected and loved. So what is holding you back? What is it that you don't "feel that way." about?

quote:
I am not a hypocrite, he knows that!!! I could put on an act, to try to make him happy, but he will know that I am not into it! Is like when sometimes, I really dont want to make love, but I do it anyways, but I am not really into it. Dont get me wrong, at the end, I have a great time, but at the beginning, and thru it, I am not myself, and he knows it. He likes it when I am 100% enjoying what we are doing. Right now, I know I am not 100% myself yet. I need time, to sort myself, to feel right about myself. To feel that I am not dirty and a bad woman, because I was unfaithful to him.
What are you not into Myrta? What are you holding back and why? Why would telling him you love him be hypocritical? This is NOT about whether you are dirty and a bad woman. This is about your view of HIM, not yourself. He is the one that determines if you are dirty and bad, and frankly from what he says that is not the case. He fears you will NOT choose him, not you being a "bad" woman.

quote:
He tells me many times, that your marriage is not special anymore, because I did it with another man But I still think it is, because my husband was the one that took my virginity not the OM!!!
Myrta, giving your virginity to your H was a very special moment. However, your marriage is NOT special right NOW. Because you have not commited to it and neither of you have healed from this. Myrta, the marriage needs to be rebuilt so that it is SPECIAL and it can be with both of you deciding that is what you want. HOWEVER, while the marriage right now is not special, YOU are still very special to him. Do you see the difference?

Myrta marriage is a vehicle where two become one, and yet they retain their own identity. You are so special to your H that he is willing to endure this pain and continue to love you. Have you figured that out yet? IF not you should really think about this. He is doing things that surprise you, but make no mistake he is still married to you, still loves you, and wants to make this marriage work BECAUSE you are so special. What needs to be made "special" again is the marriage and that will take your cooperation and help.

quote:
You tell me, JL, why should I smile and be happy right now? I dont feel happy, knowing that at any moment, my husband is going to tell me, "pack your bags, you are out of here"!!! Thats how I feel, I feel unsure, insecure about my future with him. I am usually very strong about decisions, and problems, but now it seems like this one is TOO BIG, for me to handle, for US to handle.
Myrta, do you realize how big a DJ you just stated? You don't KNOW your H is going to leave. Now perhaps you have plans to continue the affair, or to be so mean to him that he leaves, in which case you can strongly suspect he will leave, but you don't KNOW.

More importantly you are not listening to him. You are judging him without listening to what he says. He is saying he loves you, he wants your love. He is NOT the one that is thinking about leaving, is that what you are thinking? Are you thinking about running from this problem because it seems too big for you to handle?


quote:
I have always try to solve the problems that arise with our children. Would not tell my husband, so he wouldnot worry, so he would not lose any sleep over those problems. Because I know, he does not like problems,or dilemmas in his life. I know that, he knows that!
I really dont know what to do, what to say, how to act with him!!! Yeah, yeah, you say, answer the questions he asks, and he will be at peace,happy, but THAT IS NOT ENOUGH> I have told him, many things, more , I am sure than any other WW here, but yet, is not enough.

You protecting him was a very nice thing to do, but has it occured to you that you also were cutting him out of your life. Has it occured to you that he is capable of solving very difficult problems whether he wants to or not? I am sure he would MUCH rather NOT have this issue and problem in his life, but he is going to solve it.

Of course you don't know what to do or say or how to act. You have never been in this situation before, and neither has he. But Myrta I will tell you this, if you do anything do this...act with love toward him, and the rest will come as you two sort yourselves out.


quote:
Just now, while I am writing this post, I am talking to one of our daughters online, and she is praising me as a mother, as a woman, And it makes me sad, if she only knew what kind of woman her mother really is!!!

Myrta, remember when I said there were costs to this. Sadly you are finding this out. But, you know you are a good mother to your daughter and all of your children. What kind of mother does she have? Well, I will offer you my opinion if you would like to hear it.

She has a mother that loves her and her siblings.

She has a mother that has loved their father for years.

She has a mother that is human, and has made a big mistake.

She has a mother that recognizes this mistake and will work to overcome it.

She has a mother that now loves her H again and now values marriage and its vows as perhaps she has not in the most recent years.

She has a mother that knows the value of forgiveness as she seeks it and gives it.

But, Myrta, what I hope she has is a mother that is strong enough to forgive her H his failing, and strong enough to overcome her own. NOW THAT is a woman that is worthy of a lot of respect. I think you will prove to be that woman.

Must go and do some work.

God Bless,

JL

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Myrta - Are you doing okay without your husband around? I hope you will check in again today.

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JUST LEARNING===I HAVE read your post several times, trying to absorbe everything you tell me. To truly understand the meaning of your words.
You tell me that the horrible woman that I described, does not exist any longer. This is a new woman, or I should say my old self. Out or almost out of the fog, seeing things clearly for what they really are.
One question that I have for you, Mr.JL...are all affairs fantasy, are all affairs based on lies? Has there been a happy ending for someone having an affair? Or do they go on and on, doing the same mistakes to the new people, been unfaithful to them,etc,etc?
I am not saying that my A was not a fantasy, or Disneyland like my husband likes to call it. But I just cannot believe, that no one will ever be happy if they go on and try to live with the OM or OW!!! Even with all the deceit and lies involved, there must be some happy endings out there!!! Anybody here, with that ending?
Or everybody here was living in a fantasy, not feeling real love, or in this fog, that you would not even see yourself!!! [Confused]
My husband fears the fog? No, I think my H fears me!!! He has told me himself. He gets sweaty palms sometimes when he is close to me, like he is some impressionable teenager!!! I make him uncomfortable. And that scares me!!! Gosh, we have been together forever!!!! Just because I derailed from our marriage does not mean,, I am or was another woman. I have always been the same!!! I mean, it is kind of sweet ,cute, to see him nervous in front of me, like he is just knowing me now!! He looks at me like he has never seen me before [Confused] I still see him like my same old husband, the onlly difference is that he is more passionate, more humble with me, he is more talkative, he is more into me, but he is still my Husband. I dont look at him as a stranger,even though he is acting different!!!!
I do listen to him, or I try to. But sometimes the way he puts his words, makes me want to back away from him. Makes me want to close up. [Frown] He tells me that he is not angry, that he does not want to fight, but yet I hear his tension, I see anger in his eyes. I know him very well.
I know nobody knows whats the future holding for us. But most of the people, with normal marriages, have a pretty good idea, they are fearing the break up. Why should I thinking that be a DJ???? That is my oppinion!! I could say the same thing, when you or him say things about me, and I dont agree with them.
I am not saying that I am holding back my love for him. I just cannot let myself go, because I see that things are too uncertain, too shaky, too weird. And that makes me withdraw to myself. The love that I offer him now, is the love that I can let myself give him NOW. I do love my husband, sometimes I look at him, and see him and cannot believe that he is here with me,that he still loves me, and I get filled with all this love,affection for him. And I would like to kiss him, tell him, but I get scared. The only times, that I let myself go, is when we are in church, in front of God. I feel so close to him, so in tune with him.
No, I dont have plans of continuing the affair. And NO I am not planning to quit US. My fear is that he will be the one quitting on US. I dont get scare with challenges of life, but I know my husband, and I know he has so many thoughts,ideas going thru his mind, and I KNOW, one of them, is not trying anymore!!!
JL,,thank you so much for taking the time, to try to help ME, us!!! You are indeed a very smart person, very knowledgable!! I want to grow up to bejust like YOU [Smile]
Bye for now.
Myrta

[ October 01, 2004, 09:46 PM: Message edited by: Myrta ]

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