PEPPERBAND <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I guess you dont want to take JL's place!! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />
Ofcourse the pains of two people cannot be compare. But you can tell, who seems to be suffering the most! LIke right now, I can see my husband having more pain. I am not comparing the pain, I just see him suffering more.
As far as changing myself, I really dont know what was it that make me have the affair, since there are many things that could had been the trigger!

thanks!

myrta

I guess you dont want to take JL's place!! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Sweetie, I did not say I did not want to, I said I can't take JL's place. I am saucy and he is sweet! He's irreplaceable! You might not like me much, I am a little harsh sometimes. Of course, you can always tell me to go fly a kite when ya feel like it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />



I just see him suffering more.

Hold him. Tell him you are sorry. Tell him a hundred times a day if necessary. Be there for the long run. On average, it takes about 2 years to recover. Be patient and gentle and try not to shift blame.


As far as changing myself, I really dont know what was it that make me have the affair, since there are many things that could had been the trigger!

Well, think about it for awhile, and then come up with an area of weakness...

Are you someone who only feels good and satisfied with herself when you are getting praise and attention from someone else? Is this a possible area where you fall into your weakness? It's called borrowed functioning.... means you don't feel whole when you are alone. You "borrow" the opinions of others in order to form your opinion of yourself. Is this an area for you to work on maybe?

Pep

Shoot, Pep, you're good. I didn't even know that feeling had a name. I've felt like that all my life.

Myrta, JL hasn't forgotten about you. None of us have. We're all here to help for as long as it takes.

And, yes, at 49 you sure can grow and learn. Heck, I've just turned 50 and I've learnt more about myself and life (in a good way) this last year than I've learned in the previous 50. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Jen

Dear Myrta,

I'm not sure if I can say anything to help you but I'll try, I would really like to do that. In fact that would help me too. The thing is - my H had an A with my best friend. I had several talks with this friend/OW after I found out, not to bash her, but to try and understand how this could have happened. You sound a lot like her and that is why I'd like to respond here.

In fact it was weird and painful for me that I couldn't help her. If she would have had an A with someone else, and would be in pain when realising what a mistake she had made, I would be there to help her through it. But now I couldn't - I was in so much pain myself and she helped cause this pain.

She was in a lot of fog the first few months, very remorseful but also full of "how wonderful my H was" and saying hurtful things like "how he really knows how to please a woman and that she really enjoyed it". I felt like someone from another planet was talking to me, and I asked her how she could be so insensitive to tell me this, to which she replied "I'm NOT insensitive!!". I guess she really didn't understand that she would hurt me by saying such things. She thinks I'm very perfect and can handle everything, so she was very confused when she saw I was in pain.

She takes great care of her appearance and has rather low self-esteem. The discovery of the A made her realise that. Her H doesn't know but losing me as a friend hit her hard and made her look at herself. She said it will take a long time for her to feel good about herself again.

She never intended to leave her H, she just wanted to have this experience, she said she could love two men etc. etc. And it never occurred to her she would hurt me (or her H) because she really thought I'd never find out. She actually said "I didn't think it was wrong because it felt so good" and I'm beginning to understand that.

OK that's where I'm coming from. Now what advise can I give you my dear?

I think the discovery of an A is a real growth spurt (is that correct English? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) both for a M and for the individual involved - if we allow it to be. It hurts, it nags and makes us uneasy for months. But we do grow. In my case we all HAD to grow as a person, become more understanding of the needs and feeling of others etc. to get through this. And that makes us a better person - all of us.

My advice would be to focus on the present. And to think of things you can DO. Learn about EN, about the Love Languages, go to counseling, whatever, but most importantly... try to understand what your partner is saying and feeling. Don't discuss. Don't defend or attack. What he feels, what you feel, is just that - feelings. Sometimes we can say things to change that feeling because it's based on incorrect information. Sometimes it's based on the truth and then we can only accept it. It's a person's very individual response to a situation, and even that person cannot know how they're going to react to an A.

I think accepting my own feelings - whatever they were - as well as my H's and OW's feelings - whatever they were - helped me immensely. It then makes you think "ok, so what shall we do now?" And being able to do something, rather than dwell on my emotions, feels so much better. I learned to calmly state what was going on inside me instead of keeping it all in. I learned to accept my H's reactions and to accept he's not perfect. I learned to set up my boundaries and make them clear to others. Hey.. not bad.. as an age-old conflict avoider that was about time, too ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

So that's really my advice I guess - try not to discuss your H's feelings. He feels what he feels, period. It's his very personal reaction and his way of trying to deal with all aspects of the situation. I truely believe it's a very instinctive, primitive reaction: a BS feels angry or scared because of the "intrusion of their territory", of their safe place, by some OM or OW. The BS needs to feel safe again, NC is most important to establish this. It would also help if you would become completely transparant. Let him know where you are, who you are with, who you are phoning, whatever. No secrets. It will help your recovery a lot if you do it out of love and to help your H trust you again.

Another thing - accept your mistake for what is was: a mistake. No more, no less. Don't defend your actions. Try to understand them, but don't defend them. Just like a BS shouldn't hurt or bash the WS. It happens, we're only human, but we should avoid such LB'ing when we're trying to recover the M and ourselves.

I felt terrible for not being more forgiving after D-Day. I didn't understand those violent feelings that were raging inside me, the anger, the pain, the hurt, the loss of my self-respect. It didn't get any better until I accepted those feelings instead of fighting them. Maybe it's the same for you - accepting what you feel. Guilt. Confusion. Defensive. Ok, those are my feelings. Hello you guys. Now, what can we do to feel better? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I hope this wasn't too much rambling my dear. Let me know if anything in here can be of help to you.

Myrta said:


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The thing is what can I do to restore my marriage?
Since you already been there, done that, you can give me good pointers in what for me to do and for my husband to do as well.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pep said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Is there anything you have said that you are NOT willing to do? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The innocence is gone and I accept that. However, it would help me tremendously if I could trust again. I love Myrta with all my heart, but loving someone that I cannot trust is awkward. How do I know I am doing the right thing?

In the aftermath of D-day I thought I was doing fairly well and was actually regaining my trust. Myrta pleaded with me to stay in the marriage and agreed to send the OM packing right away. So I trusted her on D-day and told her I would stay in the marriage if she would immediately cut ties with OM.

At the time I believed I was simply dealing with the pain of betrayal. I actually trusted her when she said the OM was history. Then I found out she was in touch with the OM after D-day (not in a romantic way according to her). Now I find I cannot trust at all--- I am stuck!


Myrta said:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What do you recommend I change in myself? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don’t think anyone changes. I know Myrta is the same girl I met when I was a teenager. Once a personality is formed it is hard to change. I am pretty much the same person I was 40 years ago. The only thing I can do is to stay very close to Myrta and to have her avoid circumstances that can lead to an affair. I have to accept that she is prone to this activity and all I can do is be very attentive to her needs. I cannot say that she will be faithful because she loves me or because I am great in bed or whatever. I don’t think the fault lies with myself. I believe Myrta is a complex human being and the affair occurred because a multitude of factors were in place and the opportunity was there.

Myrta said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As far as changing myself, I really don’t know what was it that make me have the affair, since there are many things that could had been the trigger! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree.

Pep said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Are you someone who only feels good and satisfied with herself when you are getting praise and attention from someone else? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Myrta has said from day one that she craves romance. I think that the temptation of brand new romance was hard to resist. The only thing I can do is to try to compete with the thrill of a new romance, but this may be easier said than done when she has seen my face most of her life. In any event it may very well have nothing to do with my face, charm, or appearance. I think Myrta simply enjoys the attention and romance and this may work even if it comes from me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You sound a lot like her and that is why I'd like to respond here.
In fact it was weird and painful for me that I couldn't help her. If she would have had an A with someone else. She was in a lot of fog the first few months, very remorseful but also full of "how wonderful my H was" and saying hurtful things like "how he really knows how to please a woman and that she really enjoyed it". I felt like someone from another planet was talking to me, and I asked her how she could be so insensitive to tell me this, to which she replied, "I'm NOT insensitive!!". I guess she really didn't understand that she would hurt me by saying such things. She thinks I'm very perfect and can handle everything, so she was very confused when she saw I was in pain.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let’s face it--- WSs and OPs have a lot in common---- low self-esteem and poor reality assessment. Myrta’s OM was completely out of touch with reality and at the end he did not believe he was having an affair, but a normal relationship (they were a couple!).

The OM was delusional to the point of pretending Myrta was his wife and that my children were his. So I agree, there is a poor concept of reality and many of these folks are dreamers with a touch of selfishness It is very hard for Myrta to accept her OM was a low class individual despite the evidence. However, I was not there to hear classic “OM speak” which is designed to make WW believe she is the center of the universe. The constant praising of the OM was like someone was twisting a knife in my chest over and over again. In fact, I would say that 90% of our arguments had to do with Myrta defending the OM whenever I pointed out a deficiency.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She takes great care of her appearance and has rather low self-esteem. The discovery of the A made her realize that. Her H doesn't know but losing me as a friend hit her hard and made her look at herself. She said it will take a long time for her to feel good about herself again. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have not explored this issue in great detail, but my fear is that if the self-esteem was low it could be even lower now and that worries me a lot since that is a major cause of infidelity.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She never intended to leave her H, she just wanted to have this experience, she said she could love two men etc. etc. And it never occurred to her she would hurt me (or her H) because she really thought I'd never find out. She actually said "I didn't think it was wrong because it felt so good" and I'm beginning to understand that. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This sounds like Myrta-------- She said that at the appropriate time she would have ended the affair and I would not have suffered.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">try to understand what your partner is saying and feeling. Don't discuss. Don't defend or attack. What he feels, what you feel, is just that - feelings. Sometimes we can say things to change that feeling because it's based on incorrect information. Sometimes it's based on the truth and then we can only accept it. It's a person's very individual response to a situation, and even that person cannot know how they're going to react to an A. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I told my Myrta after D-day: If I had an affair I would immediately dump the OW and would not contradict you if you felt OW was a whore. In fact the last thing I would do would be to defend the OW. I would also change all phones, give away all passwords and make my life an open book. However, at that time I had no concept that folks in affairs actually fall in love. Things like fog or withdrawal were foreign concepts. The idea that WWs try to play both sides of the fence with BH and OM was something I did not know.

I still do not understand the mindset of WWs and OMs. If I fell in love the way they did I would be a goner. IN fact if I fell in love with another woman the way Myrta fell in love with OM I could not stay in the marriage. So I am puzzled by Myrta’s desire to stay. I read the emails I know this was true love and now she is here with me. I don’t get it and I still feel like a 2nd rate substitute for a true lover who is no longer available. This is how I feel, but at the same time I have no fear of the competition the OM offers. My only concern is the desire of this man to destroy my marriage. Another manifestation of selfishness and poor reality assessment.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think accepting my own feelings - whatever they were - as well as my H's and OW's feelings - whatever they were - helped me immensely. It then makes you think "ok, so what shall we do now?" And being able to do something, rather than dwell on my emotions, feels so much better. I learned to calmly state what was going on inside me instead of keeping it all in. I learned to accept my H's reactions and to accept he's not perfect. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am doing this fairly well and I don’t mind Myrta telling me what she feels. However, she keeps her feelings to herself. She cannot open herself to me because she fears I will reject her. I want her to be more open, but she is fearful. OTOH, it was easy to be open with OM as he was like her a man with low self-esteem looking for an ego booster. She saw eye to eye with OM--- she is unable to do that with me.

Myrta,

I have not abandoned you, have been traveling this week and am still traveling. You would do well to listen to Pep, she has a unique way of getting to the core of things that, while sometimes painful, is ALWAYS enlightening. Her questions will go deep into your thinking.

As for being 49, well have you figured out you are the kid on the block? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Even that other "kid" KiwiJ (Jenny) is older than you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

As for being "to old to learn new tricks", you are wrong, NOW is a great time to learn new things. As for changing, I don't think Stanley wants you to change one bit. What you need to do, and what would help him, is if you would change your PERSPECTIVE on things. That you can change, and it will help both of you.

I get the impression that while you are probably a very introspective person, empathy is NOT as strong as it should be. That suggests that your perspective on the world can be broadened. Try seeing the world from your H's eyes. I don't mean just the A, or the marriage, but your children, his job, and YOU.

Step back and see the world differently and I think you will find that as you do, you and Stanley will recover nicely. It is a perspective thing, you said so yourself. You did not feel your A would hurt Stanley because he would never KNOW. But, you did not include in your perspective that you would start to deny him in the bedroom, start to withdraw from him emotionally, and start to lie to him. You did NOT see those things as hurtful to him.

As I said it is a perspective issue, not a "let's change Myrta into someone else" issue.

Now go back and read Pep's last posts and see if there are some changes in your perspective that would allow you to see were modifications in perpsective could help and prevent what has happened.

Must hit the road. You have a lot of people pulling for you Myrta, not the least of which is your H. You are a fortunate woman, and I hope your perpsective has broadened enough to realize that.

God Bless,

JL

JUSTLEARNING!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I am happy to see you did not forget about me! I thought that maybe you thought I "was alost case" or that I "did not need any more help"
But, you are back ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
SGT.PEPPER she is allright,yes. She makes lots of sense in what she says, but she is not YOU <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
I had never seen her post before. And she likes to read too much (whatsnot there) in between the lines!
You are right in your assesment of me, of not putting myself enough in my husband's position. To see things his way. But as you have noticed and called it a disrespect, when I did, I was wrong. So maybe I had tried to put myself and try to think like me, but the conclussions that I get are usually wrong <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> So, you asking me that, and Pepper too, makes me a bit uneasy, because I want to be right assesing others!! I think I can do pretty well with strangers, and other people, but not with my husband! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I dont know why is that, maybe because I had been with him so long? I dont know! Or maybe I dont know him as well, as I should?
Just Learning, my husband is very not trusting of me, and that hurts me a lot. Because NOW that I am doing everything the way its supposed to be done, he thinks I am being unsincere. He thinks that I still have contact with the OM. He is always pressing me, to tell him something that its only in his imagination. I really, really closed the door to the OM last time I talked to him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
It makes me kind of sad, ( I know it shouldn't) but it does. The OM was very hurt, and told me never to call him or get in touch with him. My husband thinks thats BS from his part, but I think he m eant it. Not that I was planning to communicate but I did not like to hear those words coming from his mouth! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
I had lunch with my husband today at "La Madeline" a french cafe close to where he works / he was behaving like he was in a date with a new girlfriend. He gets so hot and bothered when he is close to me, that it amazes me. We had been married 30 years!!! What do you think of that???
He does tell me all the time, that he likes the way I am. That he fell in love with me, because of the way I am. But yet, he censors my actions. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
I am being a bit sarcastic, sorry about that.
I dont know, today I feel a bit down, because it looks like my husband is never going to trust me again. And that makes me pull away from him, and that makes me scared. My mind wonders in every direction!
You really think I am not too old to learn new tricks? Hmm, I dont know, it looks hard, to try to change how you want to be. Although I never had an affair before!
I dont see myself as being sooooo insecure and in need or craving for constant attention. My husband and people in this forum think that only very insecure people with low self esteem get involved in affairs. I dont know. Powerful people ,leaders of the world (Clinton, Kennedy) have done that too, but yet everyone would think they are so self assured. There has to be otherthings, that are very important for people to do that to their spouse!
I am sorry, I've been rambling!
I guess my thoughts are coming in spurts, and I write them.
Thanks for your advice, I still need it!
Have a safe trip back!
MYRTA

P.S. I wanted to let you in a little secret about myself!
My real name is not Myrta. :

<small>[ October 06, 2004, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: Myrta ]</small>

Myrta,

Thought I would respond to somethings you said. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JUSTLEARNING!!!! I am happy to see you did not forget about me! I thought that maybe you thought I "was alost case" or that I "did not need any more help"
But, you are back !</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nah! you are not a lost case. However, sometimes when other people are posting to you and you are responding to them and it seems to be going well, I think it best just to read and Learn from you and the other posters.

Plus this stuff takes time and you would get tired of talking to just me, and there are so many people here that can offer you perspectives I cannot. It was the same with Jenny (KiwiJ) and others. So don't worry.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SGT.PEPPER she is allright,yes. She makes lots of sense in what she says, but he is not YOU
I had never seen her post before. And she likes to read too much (whatsnot there) in between the lines!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, you will find that Pep assumes almost nothing. She has a very interesting way of gathering information from a poster before she starts to offer advice. You will find her very insightful. So her questions that seem to be coming out of left field are her way of seeing if there is more to the story, more information that she can use to help. She is really amazingly good at this, and I think in her "real" life she deals with similar issues.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right in your assesment of me, of not putting myself enough in my husband's position. To see things his way. But as you have noticed and called it a disrespect, when I did, I was wrong. So maybe I had tried to put myself and try to think like me, but the conclussions that I get are usually wrong </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah Myrta, here is the secret. If you want to see things from another persons perspective, you ask them what they feel, what they see, what they need help with, and their answers will allow you to see things from their perspective. Guessing or assuming will get you into trouble.

Think about my posts to you very early on, and about Pep's posts recently. We probed different areas to get information from you, and gradually as you have talked here, have you noticed that fewer things seem to set you teeth on edge? That is because we are getting to know you, getting to see things from YOUR perspective, and then we can offer advice. Now you may not like it, but we are more on target with it.

You need to do this with your H. He needs your advice on things, but it must come to him from a perspective he understands.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, you asking me that, and Pepper too, makes me a bit uneasy, because I want to be right assesing others!! I think I can do pretty well with strangers, and other people, but not with my husband! I dont know why is that, maybe because I had been with him so long? I dont know! Or maybe I dont know him as well, as I should?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, we never know our spouses as well as we should it seems, but I also think you are misjudging yourself. It is easier to get an assessment of a stranger because the assessment is of a surface level. In this situation, you need to assess parts of your H, they you may have not realized existed or were as sensitive as they are. Your actions have caused some very very deep things to be addressed and it is much harder to assess these things. It requires really good communications and discussions that while painful are done in a way that protects both of you. This is NOT something most of us are used to doing. It takes time and practice, but I sense you are getting better at it.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just Learning, my husband is very not trusting of me, and that hurts me a lot. Because NOW that I am doing everything the way its supposed to be done, he thinks I am being unsincere. He thinks that I still have contact with the OM. He is always pressing me, to tell him something that its only in his imagination. I really, really closed the door to the OM last time I talked to him.
It makes me kind of sad, ( I know it shouldn't) but it does. The OM was very hurt, and told me never to call him or get in touch with him. My husband thinks thats BS from his part, but I think he m eant it. Not that I was planning to communicate but I did not like to hear those words coming from his mouth!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is normal Myrta, very normal. It will fade away as your feelings of OM do. If you want to short circuit some of this, YOU bring it up to him in the form of how are you feeling? Is there something I can help your with? This often puts the conversation on a different plane. As it is now he brings it up when he is hurting the most and in that state NO ONE listens well. So you bring it up when he is just relaxing, or there is a quiet moment. You know what they say Myrta "The best defense is a good offense."
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I had lunch with my husband today at "La Madeline" a french cafe close to where he works / he was behaving like he was in a date with a new girlfriend. He gets so hot and bothered when he is close to me, that it amazes me. We had been married 30 years!!! What do you think of that???</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think I am envious of both of you, is what I think. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I also think you don't appreciate how cool this really is. Enjoy it, encourage it, and don't let it go.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He does tell me all the time, that he likes the way I am. That he fell in love with me, because of the way I am. But yet, he censors my actions.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course he does, that is why he will remain married to you. He loves you Myrta, and that is what attracts him and hurts him. He will continue to adjust and heal. Just give it time. As for censoring your actions, you would need to define for me what that means. I am sure his trust issues, are causing him to behave in a manner he doesn't usually behave.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am being a bit sarcastic, sorry about that.
I dont know, today I feel a bit down, because it looks like my husband is never going to trust me again. And that makes me pull away from him, and that makes me scared. My mind wonders in every direction!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Patience young lady. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> You need patience. You have been aware of this situation for 2 years, he has been aware of it what?? 4 maybe 5 months. You have a huge advantage in this thing as you know everything and he is learning a lot. So give it time and have patience.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You really think I am not too old to learn new tricks? Hmm, I dont know, it looks hard, to try to change how you want to be. Although I never had an affair before!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In a odd way you answered your own question. You already made a huge change with the introduction of OM into your life. So what you are doing now is not so big. It is really just a shift in perpective.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I dont see myself as being sooooo insecure and in need or craving for constant attention. My husband and people in this forum think that only very insecure people with low self esteem get involved in affairs. I dont know. Powerful people ,leaders of the world (Clinton, Kennedy) have done that too, but yet everyone would think they are so self assured.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Most people that define themselves by the power they have over other people are NOT SECURE. Plus, they also view having other women as part of the "perks" of the office. I don't know if you are insecure or not, but clearly you sought another individual in your quest to be happy. When a secure person might have addressed this by being happy with themself. I don't know the answer.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> There has to be otherthings, that are very important for people to do that to their spouse!
I am sorry, I've been rambling!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What do you think those might be? I am curious.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess my thoughts are coming in spurs, and I write them.
Thanks for your advice, I still need it!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You will do fine Myrta, just give it time and be kind to your H. He has some healing to do, and he has some perpectives to change as well. I'll probably talk with him about this in the near future. You two are doing well. So enjoy.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">P.S. I wanted to let you in a little secret about myself!
My real name is not Myrta. : </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> That's Ok, mine isn't JL either. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Yet, you did chose a nice login name. Has sort of a mysterious ring to it doesn't it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

JUST LEARNING!! Now I see why you chose that name, it is because you just sit back and Learn from me and other posters! So, you are "just learning" as you read us!! Interesting, clever name! Hmm, I sort of knew your name was not JL, no mother will call her child JustLearning!
I dont think I sought another person in my quest for happiness, I sought another person because there was something lacking in my marriage. I was not necessarily seeking happiness, just "something" that was missing!! I thought I found it, when I was in the affair. But what I did not think was that I was hurting my marriage and my husband, and now because of that, there is lack of trust!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I rather be like I was before ,than living with a man that does not trust me completely. You know, sometimes, I feel, like he is trying to "cut my wings", like I am a bird, and I just can walk, not fly!
I feel like I have to watch and study whats going to come out of mymouth, so I dont hurt myhusband. and I think he feels the same way, but not in regards to the OM. He really goes all out with him!
There are some things that I like, because of the affair; for instance, my husband has become more alive, more sexual, more attentive to me, more "in love" or maybe "in lust". But I give ALL that away for him to trust me completely again! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> You see? I miss him trusting me completely, with his eyes close, not even thinking about it. Now, that is gone, for a long time, maybe forever!!!
I like Sgt.Pepper's posts, but not as much as I like yours. I guess I look up to you, I would like to become the same kind of person you are. You have the same qualities of my husband, but I guess because you are a neutral person talking to me, I can see those traits better. You are very righteous, moral, serious, just like Stanley. Yup!
I dont want to lose how my husband and I are now. It is very cool indeed, that he has the "hots "for me again. That he pays so much attention to me. But sometimes, my insecurities get a hold of me, and I think to myself. He is pretending to be this way, but he really does not feel it.
It is stupid that I think like that, but I cannot help it!
Thanks again!
Back from your travels?

MYRTA

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Myrta:
I dont think I sought another person in my quest for happiness, I sought another person because there was something lacking in my marriage. I was not necessarily seeking happiness, just "something" that was missing!! I thought I found it, when I was in the affair.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What did you find?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But what I did not think was that I was hurting my marriage and my husband, and now because of that, there is lack of trust!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I rather be like I was before ,than living with a man that does not trust me completely. You know, sometimes, I feel, like he is trying to "cut my wings", like I am a bird, and I just can walk, not fly!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is trust and blind trust. Trust comes from knowledge, Blind Trust comes from denial. One embraces reality, the other fantasy. Which do you prefer your H have for you?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel like I have to watch and study whats going to come out of my mouth, so I dont hurt my husband. and I think he feels the same way, but not in regards to the OM. He really goes all out with him!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And this is bad because?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There are some things that I like, because of the affair; for instance, my husband has become more alive, more sexual, more attentive to me, more "in love" or maybe "in lust".</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Affairs are wakeup calls. They are like a bucket of icy cold water thrown at someone's face and makes them realize that nobody owns anybody and that a person is with another because he/she wills it and that one day he/she may leave for good.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But I give ALL that away for him to trust me completely again! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> You see? I miss him trusting me completely, with his eyes close, not even thinking about it. Now, that is gone, for a long time, maybe forever!!!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You want him to trust you so soon after D-day? That is tantamount to asking a person that was severely injured in an vehicle accident and hospitalized, to get up his/her bed and do ballet, it ain't going to happen. You want to help your H start trusting you? Become totally accountable to him, not as a sign of subjugation but as a sign of love. In time, he will regain his trust in you, not because of your words but because of your actions.

<small>[ October 07, 2004, 01:21 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Hello Myrta,

my post was intended for you but it was Stanley who responded <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

Please let me know if you would like to answer to JL's posts exclusively or if posts from others are also welcome.

BROWNHAIR!!! sorry about that. Sometimes there are many post directed to me and I miss some! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
That is really bad what happened to you with your "best friend". Thats one "below the buckle".
I was just like her, I guess, yes. At the beginning of my foggy days, I would say things that I am sure hurt my husband a lot, but I did not think that I was doing anything wrong.
For a time, I thought I was being a "nice person" giving my love to two men! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Thats how deep in the fog I was. I really thought, that no one was going to get help and that I was a good deed too. But after coming slowly out of my fog, I see the magnitude of what I did to my husband. He has suffer like never in his life!! He was so carefree before, so easy going, and now he is so wired and watchful all the time. His personality was so much more relax than mine, and now he is almost worst than me. I always have to be moving and doing stuff to release some of my energy,I have too much! Now, he is like that, but with ME. He is always trying to get the "love" that he thinks he lost.
I want to fully accept my mistake, but it is hard to come out and say that. I am not ready to accept full responsability yet. It feels better
to shift blames to husband,OM and myself. But I know, only oneself is responsible for what we choose to do. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />
I think realizing what I did, is making me kind of depressed lately. I feel like I cannot give myself to my husband, because he deserves better and better is not ME~!
Sometimes my husband is patient with me, but other times he gets really irritated and angry that I am not throwing myself at him and being completely out of the fog already. He wants me to forget forever already the OM. But ,like JL, he brings him up a lot himself. He brings memories back, by making me tell him details of different things.
Well, thank you for your advice,BROWNHAIR. Do you have brownhair??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

MYRTA

TOOMUCHCOFFEEMAN--I know is too soon for my husband to trust me compleely again. But Ijust wish for it. I wish things were different, that the Affair never happened and everything was like before, easy going,no tension, no hard feelings.
Of course it is going to take time for him to trust me. I would like to be more patient too, and fully accept that it is going to be a long process. But I guess like my husband I would like things to be faster and be out of the woods" already.
Well, I really dont appreciate so much him
putting down so much the OM, since after all, I was dumb enough to be with him. I guess all those derrogatory that he says about the OM, could be apply as well to me? He is always saying (my husband)that the OM and WW are birds of the same feather. So, if he is a scum bag, I must be one too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
I think he should not talk about him at all!!! He should wait that I offer him the info, when I am good and ready. And that has happened. I just come suddenly and tell him things and it is much easier, because I am talking with out been pressure to do it.
TMCM--I dont understand what you are telling me saying "TRUST COMES FROM KNOWLEDGE-BLIND TRUST COMES FROM DENIAL" ONE EMBRACES REALITY THE OTHER FANTASY!
Can you explain that one to me again! sorry about that!
Thanks for your input!@

MYRTA

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Myrta:
TMCM--I dont understand what you are telling me saying "TRUST COMES FROM KNOWLEDGE-BLIND TRUST COMES FROM DENIAL" ONE EMBRACES REALITY THE OTHER FANTASY!
Can you explain that one to me again! sorry about that!
Thanks for your input!@

MYRTA</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Myrta

There's no need to be sorry and I will explain what I mean by trust and blind trust.

Trust is you and your H knowing that at any time BOTH of you are willing to be accountable for each others actions without getting angry or defensive for it because the goal of this accountability is to ease any unfounded fears. The people who practice Trust give the benefit of the doubt to the other spouse and are more than happy to put their fears or concerns at ease by being an open book to them.

Blind trust is the opposite, it loathes mutual accountability and relies on defensive and manipulative tactics based on 'If you truly love me, you would trust me and wouldn't be questioning me' to make one spouse feel guilty for approaching the other with his/her fears or concerns regarding the other's unusual behaviors. The people who are advocates of this kind of trust, consider that they do not have any responsibility in helping their spouses end their fears and concerns.

Now that you know the difference, which would you and your H, rather have?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Myrta:
I don’t think I sought another person in my quest for happiness, I sought another person because there was something lacking in my marriage. I was not necessarily seeking happiness, just "something" that was missing!! I thought I found it, when I was in the affair.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think Myrta wanted the romance of a brand new relationship and that is something that a husband cannot provide because by definition the husband is not new. Myrta’s affair was all about those sensations that are mostly present in brand new relationships. Her plan was to leave the affair once that phase was gone.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TMCH said
Affairs are wakeup calls. They are like a bucket of icy cold water thrown at someone's face and makes them realize that nobody owns anybody and that a person is with another because he/she wills it and that one day he/she may leave for good.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In a strange way I really wanted Myrta to leave me as soon as I learned of the affair. Once I read the emails I said to myself: “game over, she really likes this man”. I hoped that she would leave the marriage. At that point that was the easy way out for me. I didn’t want to struggle with making the decision of staying versus leaving. I recall that I practically begged her to go with the OM------ I was really a fool!


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
But I give ALL that away for him to trust me completely again! You see? I miss him trusting me completely, with his eyes close, not even thinking about it. Now, that is gone, for a long time, maybe forever!!!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If it helps---------- I don’t think I could trust anyone. If I had separated from Myrta and had to date another woman I would not trust her either. The innocence is gone-------- now I know why a friend of mine use to tell me constantly "trust no one". He came up with this after his wife left him for a younger man.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
You want him to trust you so soon after D-day? That is tantamount to asking a person that was severely injured in an vehicle accident and hospitalized, to get up his/her bed and do ballet, it ain't going to happen. You want to help your H start trusting you? Become totally accountable to him, not as a sign of subjugation but as a sign of love. In time, he will regain his trust in you, not because of your words but because of your actions.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think the BIG setback regarding trust was the constant communication with OM behind my back after D-day. During this time I told my wife about the importance of NC on a daily basis and I had her read the literature from this site regarding NC. I also discussed the issue on a daily basis and she always assured me there was no contact. I don’t mean to rehash this, but in retrospect, this removed any vestige of trust I had.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
For a time, I thought I was being a "nice person" giving my love to two men! That’s how deep in the fog I was. I really thought, that no one was going to get help and that I was a good deed too. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes--- I remember this statement by Myrta. She said that having a situation where the OM provided the romance ENs and I the other ENs was the best of both worlds. She stated she was high as a kite and with a tremendous level of energy. She envisioned this system as the perfect setup for her and learned how to put everything in compartments.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I think realizing what I did, is making me kind of depressed lately. I feel like I cannot give myself to my husband, because he deserves better and better is not ME~!
Sometimes my husband is patient with me, but other times he gets really irritated and angry that I am not throwing myself at him and being completely out of the fog already. He wants me to forget forever already the OM.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am well aware the withdrawal is alive and well---- it is not easy to deal with that. As someone said--- withdrawal starts with the last day on NC and that was just the other day (I hope).

TOO MUCHCOFFEEMAN- HMM, so thats what you mean?
Do I really have to choose one or the other?
To me BLIND TRUST in a person, is that you trust the other person with your eyes close. Thats the way my husband used to trust me. He never thought possible that I would be unfaithful to him, thats blind trust to me. But, I am not in the believe that one should trust another person like that. I have never trust him like that. Because I dont know how he will react to things. I dont know how women might approach him, to make him weaken. I know that does not sound too good, but thats the way I have always being. I never trusted him completely. He, on the other hand, trusted me with his eyes closed. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
Right now, I might get angry with the "truth" but it is because I know I am accountable for what happened. But I am too ashamed to admit it. I really,really, messed our relationship, because he believed in me. I thought I could get away with it! Sad mistake, dont you think?
Yes, I am defensive,and angry, but it is because my husband trust me with his eyes close and I changed that with my actions! Now I have to attain to the consecuences. I know I am not an "open book" yet, but I am almost there. It is hard to admit and talk about everything that transpired between me and the OM.
Do you understand what I am saying?

P.S. I feel lower than the bottom of a shoe!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Myrta:
<strong> I feel lower than the bottom of a shoe! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have not posted on this thread before, but have read much of it and admire both you and Stanley for being willing to dialog AND share with all of us as well. This has been a huge learning experience (for me anyway) about how people can work through these things, both individually in dealing with the emotions and baggage, and as a couple trying to work it out.

I hope you can find a way to forgive yourself. For whatever you are still beating yourself up about, I would hope you can give yourself credit for the maturity it takes to follow the most difficult course you are now on. I do NOT think you have taken the easy road, but perhaps the road less traveled instead.

Take care!

Myrta,

I was going to respond to your earlier post, but the Coffeeman answered first and did a much better job than I. I think he pinpointed some things with regards to the trust that are very important.

I found your response to the "blind trust" issue interesting. You never trusted Stanley blindly because you always feared something would happen. But the one thing you did not fear did happen. You never feared that you would fail to protect your marriage. You failed to be honest with Stanley about what you needed or wanted.

Myrta, you will get trust from Stanley again. I am sure of it, but it will be the sort of trust you have for him. The GIFT of "blind trust" he gave you, has been crushed beneath your feet as you walked out to meet OM. It is lost now, but you had it for almost 28 years perhaps almost 30 years. You know it is something you ought to thank your H for. It was a gift.

I also do think as you come to face this full on, you will hear less about OM. I believe you are correct that your H talks about OM and unloads on him becuase he cannot do that to you. But, the reality is that OM did not betray your H, you did.

It is a sad thing to realize it. But...along with this sadness, is the realization that your H loves you enough to want to stay married to you. That he loves you enough to work on rebuilding, and yes that is what is going on here. You two are working on the rebuilding of the marriage.

You two are still sorting out things, but I believe soon you will be ready to face rebuilding.

Hang in there Myrta, you and Stanley have a lot of people pulling for you.

God Bless,

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Myrta:
Do I really have to choose one or the other?
To me BLIND TRUST in a person, is that you trust the other person with your eyes close. Thats the way my husband used to trust me. He never thought possible that I would be unfaithful to him, thats blind trust to me. But, I am not in the believe that one should trust another person like that. I have never trust him like that. Because I dont know how he will react to things. I dont know how women might approach him, to make him weaken. I know that does not sound too good, but thats the way I have always being. I never trusted him completely. He, on the other hand, trusted me with his eyes closed. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Yes, I am defensive,and angry, but it is because my husband trust me with his eyes close and I changed that with my actions! Now I have to attain to the consecuences. I know I am not an "open book" yet, but I am almost there. It is hard to admit and talk about everything that transpired between me and the OM.
Do you understand what I am saying?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think I do and its good to know that you acknowledge that blind trust is not good. But I would question whether your anger is really because your H will no longer be supplying you with that blind trust. Yearning for that blind trust is to forget that it was the enabler of your affair. But is it really such a huge loss if it means that your marriage will become a better one where the two of you will be accountable to one another?