Stanley,

Perhaps you should try another approach. Instead of talking about OM or even what Myrta did, why not simply be quiet and allow Myrta to do the talking. Allow her time to show you who she loves and who she wants to spend her life with.

Perhaps it is true that you have stated your case and that Myrta knows what you think about OM. So if this is so, then don't talk about it any more. It will lower your frustration, but it will not get rid of your pain. You will have to heal and there is little Myrta can do to hasten this, but there is a lot she can do make sure the healing is correct, leaves little scarring, and produces a functional marriage and husband.

In many ways I view this like bones. It will heal with minimal attention unless it is a compound fracture, but will it heal straight, will it heal so that it is strong again, will the person have a functioning whatever once the healing takes place?

You have to do the healing, but she must do the setting, the casting, and the rehab to make things functional again. It is her call, so let her make it.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

JL-
So what are you saying here? That he should let me do things my way? To make things function better?
Are u agreeing with what I posted to you?
Explain that one to me!

With lots of details! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Myrta

<small>[ October 08, 2004, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: Myrta ]</small>

JL:

In summary------- I am highly frustrated with the fact that my wife misses another man. It is plain and simple! It makes me mad to have to sit here and wait for all this love to dissipate after I agree to stay in the marriage and have fully exposed my heart to Myrta.

JL, Myrta talks when she wants to talk and that is not very often. She has always been reserved-- that is the way she is. She does not let me know what is in her heart. I suspect is something I don't want to hear.

If there is no love left----------- I can take it. At least let me know so I can walk away knowing I did my best. I cannot stay married to a woman who cannot love me anymore. I just cannot do it. I know I sound like an insecure second rate needy man, but that is what I need at this time.

I am very much in love with Myrta, however I have a hard time with the concept of a divided heart. I am not getting any younger and I want to enjoy life correctly and not like this.

Myrta,

Well, since you have always done things your way, and it has not worked so well, I don't think I am telling him this. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I am telling him to back off and withdraw from discussion of OM, because it hurts him more and does not help him heal.

I read on your other posts that you are retaining things that OM gave you because you are "not ready", and I think it is a very poor way to do things. But, you are doing what you want. It is not helping.

I think you are missing the causal link between your H's words and actions and your choices even within the marriage. I think he has stated his position clearly to you, and really there is no need for him to continue to do so. You will either get it or you won't. If you won't, then you cast your relationship and marriage into a different light. The marriage may survive for a variety of reasons, but it will NOT be what you or he wants.

You don't seem to connect that your actions or inactions directly affect him. You have full control over them, so you have full control over his actions and reactions. You have not used that control as wisely as I think you could, and if you really really read his posts his complaint is always the same, you are not open, you withhold, and he strongly suspects that is because you do love OM, and while it is not practical right now, you would go back to OM. What evidence? You want to hang on to the things OM gave you.

My comment is that he cannot fight this, so back off. It won't make his pain go away, it won't make his insecurity go away, it won't make you more empathetic, or loving for that matter. But, it will lower his blood pressure abit.

Just thoughts, but here they are.

God Bless,

JL

JL----I dont always do things my way. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> That was uncalled for!!
My husband does not look at any things that the OM has given me, and gets triggers and gets hurt. He does not even know what these things are. They are just a few things, unimportant things that he gave me. I dont think getting rid of a gift or thing someone has given you, will take any pain away/ Do you get rid of all the belongings of a husband that dies, because it hurts to see them. No,lots of people keep things and by doing that learn to see those things, and not get any kind of emotion from them. You think that I am always looking at this things, and I get all weepy and miss the OM terribly??? NOOOOOOOOOOOO
Those are gifts that were given to me. Do you think I should remove my brain and give it to my husband so he can erase every memory of the OM? I think the things, the material things dont do as much damage as you are making me believe here.!!!
You want me to get rid of things, but in the ohter hand, you want my husband and I to go to the hotel that I used to go with the OM, and reclaim that as our territory>>??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
I think that will be a very,very,very,low blow, big trigger to my husband. That will do more good than bad. So I dont know....
I DO LOVE MY HUSBAND, I DO WANT TO STAY MARRIED TO HIM, I DO WANT HIS TRUST BACK!!!
I am a reserved person, he has said that here, I dont talk a lot. So, now I have to be Miss Chatter Mouth? and that will make him happy???
I dO NOT HAVE A DIVIDED HEART!!!! i HAVE A HEART THAT ITS HURTING FOR MY HUSBAND, BECAUSE OF WHAT ID DID TO HIM. I AM ASHAMED, EMBARASSED, SOMETIMES I cannot even look at his eyes. Thats why I look to him, like I am thinking of the OM> I am not. I am thinking of what I did to US (my husband and I)
There is no confussion going on in my mind. I made my mind, the first day he found out. I dont want to be with the OM, I want My HUsband, no one else.
MYRTA

JL:

MYRTA said that she rather talk thru the forum than in person. She said that in here she could express her true feelings.

So here it goes:

I know Myrta is going to say I am too intense, but in reality I am simply acting like a man who loves his wife. I was gone for three days last week and came home Saturday. I was lucky to have sex with Myrta that night---- I consider that a blessing. However, I still sense that she is not giving herself and she has said so in other posts. This really frustrates me because separation of a few days in the past was always a great stimulant to have a warm welcome.

So last night----- after a few days I say to myself-- heck I will approach her again. Then I get a response that is SO SIMILAR to what she used to do during the affair that I actually get stressed out. Then she says that she is not into it and I feel like crap once again. It is Déjà vu for me and I don’t like it. So she tries to do me a favor and eventually got into it, but I am still frustrated because I long to have the old wife back. I don’t recall that I ever had to beg Myrta for this. Now everything is so different and I am highly frustrated.

So I ask-- is it the withdrawal? Depression? Then I get a bunch of abstract responses with no specifics. I want to help her and she simply does not want to talk. I strongly believe she is still in love with the guy and she does not have the courage to admit this. Yeah, she has said she loves me, but I know quite well is not said with the same exuberance as when I say it.

I now truly believe she loved this man very deeply and she is having a hard time coping with the separation. So for how long do I wait?

After D-day the whole premise of me not divorcing her was that she always loved me and that OM would be gone forever.

I am not willing to do what other BHs have done, I cannot seat and wait forever and accept her love for someone else. I need to know so I can make a decision. At my age I don’t want to work at this for 3-4 years to find out the marriage was dead from the very beginning and I was simply spinning my wheels. I have now become similar to a WW who craves romantic attention and I want to have it before I die. I know this sounds corny, but my self-esteem is not what it used to be.

<small>[ October 08, 2004, 03:34 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

Never mind, it's pointless.

Goodbye.

TMCM----

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

NEVER MIND YOURSELF,,,YOU ARE POINTLESS TOO!!!

MYRTA

STANLEY===WOW, How long since DD??? 5 months or 5 years???
I mean we are just starting this recovery and you are ready to go and look for someone else because you might be too old??
Thats love for me???
I donot love the OM. How many times do I need to tell you??? Just because I look pensive, does not mean I am inmersed in my overwhelming love for him. I am just thinking of the mess, of the hurt, of the choices,bad ones, that I did. I f you cannot understand that!!
You are welcome to leave and try new ventures!!!

Love

Myrta

Myrta:

I have asked you to throw away the presents a few times. In fact I asked you last night (not knowing this would be a hot topic today).

If I knew where the presents are I would gladly destroy them---- make no mistake about it. Unless you really want the presents----------- In that case then I have to assume they have incredible sentimental value to you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You are welcome to leave and try new ventures!!!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't like The Ventures that much----- I like The Beatles.

Peace!!!!!

No more fighting!

HMM=== I THOUGHT YOUR TASTE WAS MORE DIVERSIFIED!!!

YOU AND THE OTHERS HERE ARE THE ONES GIVING ALL THIS GUILT TRIPS!!!

I LOVE YOU!!!

TONIGHT YOU MIGHT GET LUCKY AGAIN, WHO KNOWS~!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

MYRTA

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

JL:

I guess some humor on a Friday is allowed.

I sense Myrta will speak a storm this weekend!

Hopefully there will be no presents in the house by Monday!

JL & Stanley,

I understand the thought process behind wanting to get rid of the gifts that the OM bought for Myrta. My DH never asked me to, because my house is literally FILLED with things from the OW, and there are many things that she and her family bought for my H and my children too. I put the "sensitive" items away--locked away, and I'm not looking at them. They include framed photos of her/us/her family; little friendship tokens, etc.

I still have all of the jewelry she bought me. Some of it was while we were "just friends". I don't oogle at it all and pine away for her. It's been a part of my life and a part of me for so long that honestly I sometimes forget where it came from. No big deal!! If I were sitting here, staring at such items, pining away for her, it would be a different story, and I'd throw it away if my H wanted me to. Luckily, he doesn't, and luckily I'm not pining away for her just from looking at it!

With your train of thought, what do you do with all of the other stuff? What do you do when you hear a song that reminds you of the OM or OW?? You can't really control that! What do you do when you pass by a hotel that you've visited with her/him? You can't very well destroy it, and even if you "claim it as your own" by having sex there with your H or W, those memories (I assure you) will not entirely fade away. They're now a part of whom you are.

My point is that if the A was long (as mine was nearly THREE years!), then there are going to be many memories and many items which will remind you of it. The hurtful ones should be cast aside or destroyed, IF IT'S AGREEABLE BY BOTH OF YOU. The A really was so much more than items though, and I think it's silly to think that by eliminating them you'll more easily forget about the A. JMO.

Myrta, hope you have a good weekend. I'm glad to see that you're okay with all of this. In time you'll come to your own conclusions, and hopefully they will help both you and Stanley. Good luck!

CC

Myrta,

You have a wonderful of illustrating my points. You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My husband does not look at any things that the OM has given me, and gets triggers and gets hurt. He does not even know what these things are.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Myrta, he knows they are in his HOUSE. And he has clearly said it bothers him. Are you listening. One thing you don’t seem to understand you don’t get to dictate your H’s feelings to him. He expressed them and you have said he does not feel them. That is a huge LB Myrta. If he did this to you, you would blow up. In fact Myrta you do blow up, because you say you feel you love your H, but he won’t accept that. How does that feel to you? The difference is your words and your actions (holding on to items of OM) don’t coincide. That is a problem don’t you think?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> They are just a few things, unimportant things that he gave me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, now here is where you get in trouble. You say they are unimportant, your H expresses a desire to have all of OM’s gifts and things out of the house and you refuse. So does that indicate that they are unimportant? It would suggest that they are very important. Now you could be doing this just to aggravate your H, but that would suggest you enjoy seeing him in pain and angry. Is that the case? So here you are what are YOU going to do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I dont think getting rid of a gift or thing someone has given you, will take any pain away/ Do you get rid of all the belongings of a husband that dies, because it hurts to see them. No,lots of people keep things and by doing that learn to see those things, and not get any kind of emotion from them.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Myrta, they keep them BECAUSE THEY WANT to remember the dearly departed. Is that your goal to remember the OM, keep him in your heart and mind??

Now given that you are still in withdrawal, the answer may well be yes it is. Be honest about it. If OM is strongly on your mind, if you have strong feelings for him, be honest about it. It will hurt Stanley but NOT as much as lying to him or playing these games.

Don’t you see where his frustration is coming from? It comes from you saying one thing and doing something that does not support what you say. You have options Myrta and they include leaving and being with OM. Your H has fewer options right now, but I would like to point out that suggesting he take it elsewhere if he is not happy about this is NOT a good idea IF what you say is true, that you love him and want to be married to him.

Myrta, in these situations people especially BS’s become very very sensitive and aware, and they don’t have much sense of humor about many comments, and trust me good sex will NOT cover it up for long.

CC, said a few things along this line as well. I realize she is also not commited to her marriage and struggling to find her goals in life, but would you tolerate your H in your marriage if he said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I understand the thought process behind wanting to get rid of the gifts that the OM bought for Myrta. My DH never asked me to, because my house is literally FILLED with things from the OW, and there are many things that she and her family bought for my H and my children too. I put the "sensitive" items away--locked away, and I'm not looking at them. They include framed photos of her/us/her family; little friendship tokens, etc. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If they were NOT a trigger why put them away?? They are. CC’s H doesn’t seem to be bothered about them, I am not certain he would tell her if he was. Their situation is very different. But, notice they are essentially gone. But, one might ask what good will they serve other than to remind CC of the “good” times, and her H of how she betrayed him. If her “good” times are more important, and if she has no problem telling her children she is an adulteress I guess why not do it. It only hurts her H.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I still have all of the jewelry she bought me. Some of it was while we were "just friends". I don't oogle at it all and pine away for her. It's been a part of my life and a part of me for so long that honestly I sometimes forget where it came from. No big deal!! If I were sitting here, staring at such items, pining away for her, it would be a different story, and I'd throw it away if my H wanted me to. Luckily, he doesn't, and luckily I'm not pining away for her just from looking at it!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then why keep it??

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">With your train of thought, what do you do with all of the other stuff? What do you do when you hear a song that reminds you of the OM or OW?? You can't really control that!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No you cannot, but you should control what you can. It is sort of like a diet. One does have to eat, one cannot control that, but one does not have to bring home a dozen donuts and leave them on the table.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What do you do when you pass by a hotel that you've visited with her/him? You can't very well destroy it, and even if you "claim it as your own" by having sex there with your H or W, those memories (I assure you) will not entirely fade away. They're now a part of whom you are. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, since you are not long out of your affair, your assurances about the memories are probably not the complete word on the subject. Most people that post here do say the memories fade, but more importantly the feelings associated with those memories go away.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My point is that if the A was long (as mine was nearly THREE years!), then there are going to be many memories and many items which will remind you of it. The hurtful ones should be cast aside or destroyed, IF IT'S AGREEABLE BY BOTH OF YOU. The A really was so much more than items though, and I think it's silly to think that by eliminating them you'll more easily forget about the A. JMO.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you are missing why people keep photographs of their departed relatives, it is to keep the memories alive. You say yourself that “…many items which remind you of it.” And my comment is that we agree and they should be thrown out. Further, if it is bother your spouse it should be thrown out, because these items should have NEVER been given to you in the first place.

Myrta, please think about this, but more importantly please think about what you truly feel, and why you are protecting these “gifts” so closely.


God Bless,

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It's been a part of my life and a part of me for so long that honestly I sometimes forget where it came from. No big deal!! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What do you do when you pass by a hotel that you've visited with her/him? You can't very well destroy it, and even if you "claim it as your own" by having sex there with your H or W, those memories (I assure you) will not entirely fade away. They're now a part of whom you are.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The A really was so much more than items though, and I think it's silly to think that by eliminating them you'll more easily forget about the A. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Spoken like someone who is still in the fog and doesn't care to get out.

You're lying when you say you don't associate the items with the A. If you didn't, you'd freely given them away or throw them away.

And as someone who has "reclaimed" a hotel -- you won't know it until you try it. The memories DO fade and they are NOT a part of who you are. You are only saying that because you are refusing to let go.

Ps; I'm not a first-time poster, I just couldn't get my regular username to work!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Myrta, I know you don't know me but I have been reading all your posts. I am also a WW. You said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Those are gifts that were given to me. Do you think I should remove my brain and give it to my husband so he can erase every memory of the OM? I think the things, the material things dont do as much damage as you are making me believe here.!!!
You want me to get rid of things, but in the ohter hand, you want my husband and I to go to the hotel that I used to go with the OM, and reclaim that as our territory>>???
I think that will be a very,very,very,low blow, big trigger to my husband. That will do more good than bad. So I dont know....
I DO LOVE MY HUSBAND, I DO WANT TO STAY MARRIED TO HIM, I DO WANT HIS TRUST BACK!!!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Like I just said in an earlier post, things are just things. If the OM means nothing to you now then the things will mean nothing.

After my DD, I threw away or gave away nearly every reminder of my OM. I was very upset to have to do it and I did it reluctantly, but I did it because I did not want my H to question for even one more second my wanting to be honest with him. To me, the value of HIM and the value of our marriage was worth far more than any trinkets or pictures. It was hard, but I did it. And I've never looked back in regret. I don't miss one single thing that I threw away!! I have already replaced some of those things with things that either my H bought me or I bought for myself and I am so damn PROUD of those things -- compared to the double layers of emotions I held over them before.

I said I threw away NEARLY everything that day. There were some things that I just didn't think of or didn't notice until weeks and weeks later. And when I came across them they were instantly pitched. Every now and then a little something showed up here or there and I wouldn't get rid of it right away. And do you know what? It nagged at me. Do you know that Edgar Allen Poe story about that heart that beat under the floorboards? That's what it was like here.

My remembrances of my OM range from anger to pity to shame to happiness and every other emotion you can imagine. But one thing I don't care to do is look back fondly on my relationship with him. And the further away from him I get, the more I am convinced of that. I am a newer and better person and my marriage is a stronger and better marriage now. And there is absolutely nothing here -- not a feeling or emotion and not a trinket -- that my H will ever have to question me about in regards to the OM.

Myrta (and CC too), you cannot imagine the happiness that you will feel when you get to this point. I am a newlywed again. It is beyond the emotion of the A ------- it is better than anything I could have dreamed up with the OM. Because I know this is real and good and true. And I don't have to hide it from anybody.

I want you to feel this too. Myrta -- they're trinkets. You won't miss them. It's time to let go.

I want to that JL and other posters who have supported my position regarding gifts by the OM.

1st of all if CC agrees with Myrta I have to conclude that my beloved wife may still be foggy. I say this because when I read CC the fog is so dense that I can hardly see the words on the screen. No offense CC, but among our elite group of WWs you are tops regarding the number of molecules of H2O that surround you----------- you are wet on this one. And my dear Myrta is swimming in it.

I have been bothered by the gifts for quite sometime, but as Myrta said, I don’t know what they are. I believe there is some jewelry, clothing, a purse, and a CD which I saw on Myrta’s car and ask about it (not Myrta‘s taste in music). She said OM gave it to me (Aghh!)-------------------- I got rid of it afterwards. I took a hammer and shattered the whole thing to pieces before I dumped it----------- it felt good. Myrta has not missed the CD because she does not like that kind of music.

I have often walked into Myrta’s closet to try to guess what the clothing items are. I have examined all her jewelry (98% given to her by me over the years). I found a couple of strange pieces and showed them to Myrta, but she said they were presents from her mother. I asked Myrta if OM gave her underwear---- she said no, but who knows. Nevertheless I checked the drawer where she keeps her underwear to see if there was anything suspicious. I also looked for love notes, but didn’t see anything.

Gee, I guess those things don’t really bother me!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am a newer and better person and my marriage is a stronger and better marriage now. And there is absolutely nothing here -- not a feeling or emotion and not a trinket -- that my H will ever have to question me about in regards to the OM.

Myrta (and CC too), you cannot imagine the happiness that you will feel when you get to this point. I am a newlywed again. It is beyond the emotion of the A ------- it is better than anything I could have dreamed up with the OM. Because I know this is real and good and true. And I don't have to hide it from anybody.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is what I want!

How did you achieve that?

I am already madly in love, but Myrta is not here yet. Don’t get me wrong I don’t believe anyone can make someone else fall in love, but at some point Myrta must have loved me. How is that feeling recaptured? I definitely feel like a newlywed, but Myrta is ?????????????? Is it really possible to achieve that nirvana?